Secret Rapture?

[Shaolin]

In a different thread, someone said that the rapture is a myth and not real, and they based their claim on a series of books written by one Dave MacPherson.

The problem with this, is not only that the rapture is taught in Scripture, but that MacPherson is not a scholar in this area...he is only a nay-sayer hell bent upon destroying "the blessed hope" of the church. The view MacPherson comes from isn't even what he claims...The Brethren group that he claims the 'false rapture' myth originated from, historically, originated from another group closely related to the Brethren - the Irvingites.

Columba Flegg, a scholar on this time period and on the Irvingites, says the Irvingite view of the secret rapture was a belief that a few enlightened ones would be taken right before the second coming at the end of the tribulation, which is what the Irvingite, Margaret Macdonald's "revelation" was about in her vision. It is impossible to find a reference to a pre-tribulation rapture of any kind in her vision, because that wasn't what it was about.

Flegg, a scholar on this issue, says that MacPherson's work is less than scholarly, and was not impressed with his works because Flegg has thorough knowledge of the times in which MacPherson writes and knows that he is spinning myths based upon his bias, not what Scripture actually teaches.

Since MacPherson's works seem to be one of the leading causes of people ceasing to believe in the Rapture, I believe his nonsense needs to be disseminated to all who believe that he knows what he is talking about.

The other issue, has always been..."the word Rapture is not in the Bible."

Also...for us educated people, the word rapture is in the Bible - just not English written Bibles. Since it comes from the Latin Vulgate, and is a Latin word, it IS in Bibles written in Latin.

One more myth about the rapture put to rest...may they not rest in peace! No false doctrine needs to.

Blessings

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[StewardoftheMystery]

I agree, the pre-trib rapture theory is false doctrine.

So when is the resurrection of the dead, and the living in Christ being caught up to the Lord?

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”​

Notice we see #1 the Lord himself decending, #2 the trump of the archangel is sounded, #3 “the dead rise first”and #4 the living are caught up to meet the Lord.

So when do the dead in Christ rise first? The answer is below…

John 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 11:24
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

So it is clear, the dead are raised on “the last day”.

Mystery solved.

 

[Dave M]

Saying the blessed hope is the rapture, is looking into scripture and saying that it means something that it does not say. Nowhere in scripture does it say the blessed hope is the rapture, yet scripture teaches over and over that Jesus is our Blessed Hope, not the event, NOT the timing of the event. Jesus alone is my blessed hope !!

Titus 2:13​

Waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

 

[Shaolin]

I agree, the pre-trib rapture theory is false doctrine.

Apparently you only see what you want to see...the whole point of the post was that a "secret" rapture...according to those who started that nonsense...is false.

Unless I am mistaken, you are the one who "shared" this on another thread, and now, like then, what you shared has been thoroughly thwarted.

Also, you seem to ignore other passages of Scripture to suit your own wild hypotheses...Jesus clearly said that you will not know the "day or hour," and by coming back with "the last day" you claim to know the day. Furthermore...

Notice we see #1 the Lord himself decending, #2 the trump of the archangel is sounded, #3 “the dead rise first”and #4 the living are caught up to meet the Lord.

Yes...these things will all take place in a split second of time...but, it isn't "the trump of an archangel," you are putting your own two-cents into the mix. It says, "with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God." If you are going to do this to Scripture, why should anyone take what you say seriously?

So when do the dead in Christ rise first? The answer is below…

John 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 11:24
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

So it is clear, the dead are raised on “the last day”.

Mystery solved.

Which last day"
The last day of the Gentiles?
The last day of the New Covenant era?
The last day of the Great Tribulation? And I can go on and on, simply spinning "the last day" does not say when it will take place.

Furthermore, "the last day" does NOT refer to the Rapture event, it refers to the day when ALL of the dead in Christ will rise. Are you ignoring those who die during the Great Tribulation? It appears so.
Furthermore, you ignore verse 17 to your own bias again...

1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

By the end of the first 3.5 years of the Great Tribulation, there will be NO Christians left alive to rapture, for Scripture clearly states that God will give the antichrist the authority to make war against them "and overcome them." That means they are all dead...not a single person will remain alive who can be called a Christian. There will be no one left to rapture.

You ignore a great many Scriptures in order to come to the conclusion that you have.

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[Shaolin]

Saying the blessed hope is the rapture, is looking into scripture and saying that it means something that it does not say. Nowhere in scripture does it say the blessed hope is the rapture, yet scripture teaches over and over that Jesus is our Blessed Hope, not the event, NOT the timing of the event. Jesus alone is my blessed hope !!

Titus 2:13​

Waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Yah.........."the APPEARING of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ"....the rapture.

Jesus is not our blessed hope, give another of those "over and over" multitudes of Scriptures that says He is our hope...you can't, because there aren't any. He already came and those of us who come to Him on His terms benefit from that relationship. He Himself is not 'the hope,' the hope is making it to the consummation of all things, and the rapture is the beginning of that event. Read the context...

Titus 2:11-15
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,
12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age,
13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.
15 Declare these things; exhort and rebuke with all authority. Let no one disregard you.

The ONLY way you can get that Jesus Himself is the blessed hope, is by reading that into the text, which is eisegesis, not exegesis (that's how false doctrines get started).

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[StewardoftheMystery]

Unless I am mistaken, you are the one who "shared" this on another thread, and now, like then, what you shared has been thoroughly thwarted.

You ignore a great many Scriptures in order to come to the conclusion that you have.

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Yes, you are mistaken. And you are ignoring the testimony of Jesus Christ I posted above concerning the dead in Christ be raised on the “last day”.

You are unable to receive His Testimony.

 

[Dave M]

Yah.........."the APPEARING of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ"....the rapture.

yet scripture says that nowhere, this is man-made teaching. I won't argue,, it's your right to believe what you want, but scripture does not say that anywhere.

Jesus is not our blessed hope, give another of those "over and over" multitudes of Scriptures that says He is our hope...you can't, because there aren't any. He already came and those of us who come to Him on His terms benefit from that relationship. He Himself is not 'the hope,' the hope is making it to the consummation of all things, and the rapture is the beginning of that event. Read the context...

He may not be your blessed hope as you say, but he is my blessed hope,

Romans 15:13​

May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope.​

1 Peter 1:3 ​

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,


Peace

 

[Shaolin]

Yes, you are mistaken. And you are ignoring the testimony of Jesus Christ I posted above concerning the dead in Christ be raised on the “last day”.

You are unable to receive His Testimony.

Nice try, but I don't play that game.

I accept the testimony of the whole Word of God, not just Jesus...precisely because the whole Word of God was written by Him through His Spirit. By ignoring the passages that don't fit your biased notion, you are the one ignoring what God says, and that leaves you in a very dangerous place, regardless of the nonsense that you claim about yourself.

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[Shaolin]

yet scripture says that nowhere, this is man-made teaching. I won't argue,, it's your right to believe what you want, but scripture does not say that anywhere.

Doesn't say what? "the APPEARING of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ?" If you refer to the wording, you are correct, because this is what the Greek actually says: "continuously waiting for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ." Other than that, you might be showing that you don't know how to correctly read and interpret Scripture, because you were never taught?

He may not be your blessed hope as you say, but he is my blessed hope,

Romans 15:13​

May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope.​

1 Peter 1:3 ​

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

You are very argumentative...neither of these two passages address "the blessed hope." You are pulling out passages from their context and adding them to the conversation thinking that they all speak of the same thing, and they do not.

I will not argue with you, if you reject what the passages actually say, that's your issue. I only address the facts.

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[StewardoftheMystery]

I accept the testimony of the whole Word of God, not just Jesus...

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Then why don’t you believe Jesus’ testimony below about the dead being raised on the LAST DAY?

So when do the dead in Christ rise first? The answer is below…

John 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 11:24
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

So it is clear, the dead are raised on “THE LAST DAY!”

 

[Shaolin]

Then why don’t you believe Jesus’ testimony below about the dead being raised on the LAST DAY?

I do believe what Jesus said, the problem is with your interpretation of what that means. It is obvious that you have never been taught how to correctly read and interpret Scripture.

So when do the dead in Christ rise first? The answer is below…

John 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 11:24
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

So it is clear, the dead are raised on “THE LAST DAY!”

Repeating the same thing over and over again does NOT make you right, nor does it mean that you know what you are talking about. Again I will ask, because in three times now you have ignored it...which "last day?"
There are several "last days" in the NT alone, to which do you think Jesus speaks of?

The truth isn't found in general statements, it is found in the details...and it is apparent that you don't know what those details are.

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[StewardoftheMystery]

Again I will ask, because in three times now you have ignored it...which "last day?"
There are several "last days" in the NT alone,

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Jesus did not say last days, He said “last day”. There is only one “last day” Where all 4 of these align in Scripture.

Notice we see #1 the Lord himself decending, #2 the trump of the archangel is sounded, #3 “the dead rise first”and #4 the living are caught up to meet the Lord.

The words of God do not contradict, all 4 happen on the “last day”

 

[Shaolin]

Jesus did not say last days, He said “last day”. There is only one “last day” Where all 4 of these align in Scripture.

Notice we see #1 the Lord himself decending, #2 the trump of the archangel is sounded, #3 “the dead rise first”and #4 the living are caught up to meet the Lord.

The words of God do not contradict, all 4 happen on the “last day”

Again...there will be a last day of the New Covenant era just like there was for the Old Covenant era.
There will be a last day when the time of the Gentiles is over.
There will be a last day of the church age.
There will be a last day of the Great Tribulation...etc., etc., etc.

There are many last days...and the fact is that YOU are simply arguing a point that you cannot substantiate.

Is it the last day of the Millennial Kingdom?
Is it the last day of the old earth before God re-creates the new one?

You have no Biblical, logical answer...to anything. You are not thinking about what you are saying, it appears that you are only regurgitating what someone else has told you who didn't know what they were talking about.

Until you can say what "last day" Jesus refers to, then your 'answer' is not only moot, but meaningless....empty, vacuous, void of any merit, etc.

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[StewardoftheMystery]

Again...there will be a last day of the New Covenant era just like there was for the Old Covenant era.
There will be a last day when the time of the Gentiles is over.
There will be a last day of the church age.
There will be a last day of the Great Tribulation...etc., etc., etc.

There are many last days...and the fact is that YOU are simply arguing a point that you cannot substantiate.

Is it the last day of the Millennial Kingdom?
Is it the last day of the old earth before God re-creates the new one?

You have no Biblical, logical answer...to anything. You are not thinking about what you are saying, it appears that you are only regurgitating what someone else has told you who didn't know what they were talking about.

Until you can say what "last day" Jesus refers to, then your 'answer' is not only moot, but meaningless....empty, vacuous, void of any merit, etc.

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Pay close attention to what I said…..

Jesus did not say last days, He said “last day”. There is only one “last day” Where all 4 of these align in Scripture.

Notice we see #1 the Lord himself decending, #2 the trump of the archangel is sounded, #3 “the dead rise first”and #4 the living are caught up to meet the Lord.

The words of God do not contradict, all 4 happen on the “last day”

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

I agree, the pre-trib rapture theory is false doctrine.

So when is the resurrection of the dead, and the living in Christ being caught up to the Lord?

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”​

Notice we see #1 the Lord himself decending, #2 the trump of the archangel is sounded, #3 “the dead rise first”and #4 the living are caught up to meet the Lord.
T
John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 11:24
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

So it is clear, the dead are raised on “the last day”.

Mystery solved.

The gospel according to StewardoftheMystery[/USER]
Again you take scripture out of context to prove your own false teaching. If Jesus is decending to the Earth, why are we flying up into the air? Oh I understand...His feet hit the ground and the impact throws us up, then we all land right next to Him...Right?

 

[Shaolin]

Pay close attention to what I said…..

Jesus did not say last days, He said “last day”. There is only one “last day” Where all 4 of these align in Scripture.

So far, your most pressing problem is that you don't listen to what you were given.

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[StewardoftheMystery]

So far, your most pressing problem is that you don't listen to what you were given.

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Back atcha. I’m getting off this crazy merry-go-round. Bye

 

[Shaolin]

Back atcha. I’m getting off this crazy merry-go-round. Bye

Wrong assessment. I listen, I simply reject your nonsense because you have absolutely no substantiating passages or thoughts confirming or giving meaning to your claims.

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[StewardoftheMystery]

Wrong assessment. I listen, I simply reject your nonsense because you have absolutely no substantiating passages or thoughts confirming or giving meaning to your claims.

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Nice bump!

 

[Shaolin]

Nice bump!

LOL! You do have some issues...I gave no "bump," just the facts.

Its sad that you can't seem to tell a fact from the fiction in your own mind.

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