Should pastors lead churches?
- Thread starter Richard
- Start date
Snowrose
Member
Hi Richard,
Read I Corinthians 12 (NIV). I like verse 14 which says "Now the body is not made up of one part but of many" Though it does not mention pastors, it does mention the apostles who I believe led the early church.
In I Corinthians 12, it goes on the say in verses 27 & 28a - "Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles".
I'm not very good in explaining things but I hope this helps.
Best wishes,
Snowrose
Read I Corinthians 12 (NIV). I like verse 14 which says "Now the body is not made up of one part but of many" Though it does not mention pastors, it does mention the apostles who I believe led the early church.
In I Corinthians 12, it goes on the say in verses 27 & 28a - "Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles".
I'm not very good in explaining things but I hope this helps.
Best wishes,
Snowrose
yes I believe pastors ,Preachers ,Priests should lead the church with Jesus at the head. God works thru his people and we all have Gifts to be used for the Glory of God and the word of God speaks of how these people should act and lead the church in one direction to God and togeather ONE NEW MAN
Richard said:
No there is no biblical basis that puts Pastor in the lead. Elders are to shepherd the flock, in Antioch it was prophets and teachers that made up the presbytery.
Acts 13:1-3
1*Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. 2*As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. 3*And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.
There is only one head in the Body of Christ, and it's Jesus, anything other is just that, it's other.
Chad said:
Amen Chad, all the parts are needful.
1Corinthians 12:22-27
22*In fact, some of the parts that seem weakest and least important are really the most necessary. 23*And the parts we regard as less honorable are those we clothe with the greatest care. So we carefully protect from the eyes of others those parts that should not be seen, 24*while other parts do not require this special care. So God has put the body together in such a way that extra honor and care are given to those parts that have less dignity. 25*This makes for harmony among the members, so that all the members care for each other equally. 26*If one part suffers, all the parts suffer with it, and if one part is honored, all the parts are glad.
27*Now all of you together are Christ’s body, and each one of you is a separate and necessary part of it.
Snowrose said:
This verse causes me to ask "Where are the apostles, prophets, and workers of miracles?"
Also consider Ephesians 4:11-13
11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.
This seems to be saying that in order for the body to be equipped into unity and maturity in Christ, we need to be receiving from all of the above.
I am thankful for pastor led churches, for I was saved through that system, but my question is this:
If God clearly stated what he has appointed to be the means for unifying and maturing his children, how is it that we have a system that has appointed only one part of God's intended system?
I have many other thoughts and opinions on this subject, but I am short of time right now...
This is all truth bro .
Coveting the body is a big problem with the Church system today . I bellieve that those such as yourself , who see this error , need to bring it to light , but only to the Glory of God , and not out of self righteousness .
Without all the functions , or annointings , one would certainly be lacking in all the Father prepared for us to overcome darkness . Great thread ! Mike
Coveting the body is a big problem with the Church system today . I bellieve that those such as yourself , who see this error , need to bring it to light , but only to the Glory of God , and not out of self righteousness .
Without all the functions , or annointings , one would certainly be lacking in all the Father prepared for us to overcome darkness . Great thread ! Mike
Prophets and Apostles
Man! This prophet and apostle thing has been
raging since I was saved 27 years ago! So it
had to be in full swing long before I met Christ
right?!.... [LOL]
I have had pastors, misionaries and layman tell
me for many years that I was a 'true' prophet of
the Lord!
I have had a very deep and intense walk with God!
I've had dreams and visions of the 'rapture' and the
'judgement seat [Bema Seat] of Christ'. Rom. 14:10.
Seen mighty miracles and 'wonders' by God's Hand that
it is hard for me to describe! Saw the twin towers atacked
in a 'vision' in a prayer meeting! One plane, then the other!
Two days later it happened! There are many others.
I've met others that have a 'prophetic' call. I've met
those that believe upside, rightside over and under that
they are 'Apostles' according to God's Word!
Christians have told me not allowing the prophet and apostle
to minister in the church has made it lopsided, formalized,no
power, no anointing, no watchmen, and it has allowed the
pastors in America to become demi-gods with their 'own'
agendas and not that of the Holy Spirit of God!
I've prayed, fasted, sought the Lord and Studied His Word
intently, everything the Word says to do! Then I believe
God heard my cry and delivered me from this burden!
He showed me three things from scripture:
[1] Matt. 11:13: For all the prophets and the law prophesied
until John.
[2] Jesus was now the culmination of the O.T. prophets.and
the 'end' of the law. Jesus' prophetic ministry was about to
start. Balanced and empowered by the Father's blessing!
Matt:3:16: And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up
straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were
opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending
like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Matt:3:17: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my
beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Matt. 17:3: And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and
Elias [Elijah] talking with him.
[3] After Jesus' resurrection only one other 'true' prophet of God
is mentioned:
Acts 11:28: And there stood up one of them named Agabus,
and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth
throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of
Claudius Caesar.
Acts 21:10: And as we tarried there many days, there came
down from Judaea a certain prophet, named Agabus.
When the first church was now established 'prophets' appear
to be seen:
Acts 11:27: And in these days came prophets from Jerusalem
unto Antioch.
Acts 13:1: Now there were in the church that was at Antioch
certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon
that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen,
which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch,
and Saul.
Over time prophets are not mentioned any longer in the Word
of God, except 'Agabus'.
I've searched and searched but I could never find a continuation
of the 'office' of a prophet working in the church!
Same with the 'Apostolic' office. The New Testament teaches that
the apostles of Christ were men to whom Christ appeared after
His resurrection and whom He commissioned to be His personal
spokesman. [Acts1:21-26;5:32;1Cor.9:1;15:8]. Ephesians 2:20
and 3:5 teach that the apostles and prophets had foundational
offices through which Christ 'established' the church as the newly
formed [constituted] people of God, a church of both Jews and of
course Gentiles make up the body of Christ.
A lot of men and a few 'ladies' are saying that they are 'truely'
appointed apostles who take 'authority' over people that 'has'
not been given to them by God!
Corresponding those who claim they are 'true' prophets of God
are making 'strange' prophetic utterances that are not from the
Spirit of God and go 'unchallenged' and tested and proved by
the Word of God!
The church of today no doubt is I believe 'far' from what scripture
states it should be!
But Pastors are to feed the flock of God: Pastors ordained under
sheperds and over- seers.
1Peter 2: Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the
oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy
lucre, but of a ready mind;
1Peter 5:3: Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being
ensamples to the flock.
1Peter 5:4: And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall
receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
We need to pray for God's appointed pastors not those that are
self-exaltedand appointed!
Jer. 3:15: And I will give you pastors according to mine heart,
which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.
Pray God will 'remove' the 'phoney' ones!
Jer. 23:2: Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against
the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock,
and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold,
I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.
God Bless!
Joe
Man! This prophet and apostle thing has been
raging since I was saved 27 years ago! So it
had to be in full swing long before I met Christ
right?!.... [LOL]
I have had pastors, misionaries and layman tell
me for many years that I was a 'true' prophet of
the Lord!
I have had a very deep and intense walk with God!
I've had dreams and visions of the 'rapture' and the
'judgement seat [Bema Seat] of Christ'. Rom. 14:10.
Seen mighty miracles and 'wonders' by God's Hand that
it is hard for me to describe! Saw the twin towers atacked
in a 'vision' in a prayer meeting! One plane, then the other!
Two days later it happened! There are many others.
I've met others that have a 'prophetic' call. I've met
those that believe upside, rightside over and under that
they are 'Apostles' according to God's Word!
Christians have told me not allowing the prophet and apostle
to minister in the church has made it lopsided, formalized,no
power, no anointing, no watchmen, and it has allowed the
pastors in America to become demi-gods with their 'own'
agendas and not that of the Holy Spirit of God!
I've prayed, fasted, sought the Lord and Studied His Word
intently, everything the Word says to do! Then I believe
God heard my cry and delivered me from this burden!
He showed me three things from scripture:
[1] Matt. 11:13: For all the prophets and the law prophesied
until John.
[2] Jesus was now the culmination of the O.T. prophets.and
the 'end' of the law. Jesus' prophetic ministry was about to
start. Balanced and empowered by the Father's blessing!
Matt:3:16: And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up
straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were
opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending
like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Matt:3:17: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my
beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Matt. 17:3: And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and
Elias [Elijah] talking with him.
[3] After Jesus' resurrection only one other 'true' prophet of God
is mentioned:
Acts 11:28: And there stood up one of them named Agabus,
and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth
throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of
Claudius Caesar.
Acts 21:10: And as we tarried there many days, there came
down from Judaea a certain prophet, named Agabus.
When the first church was now established 'prophets' appear
to be seen:
Acts 11:27: And in these days came prophets from Jerusalem
unto Antioch.
Acts 13:1: Now there were in the church that was at Antioch
certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon
that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen,
which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch,
and Saul.
Over time prophets are not mentioned any longer in the Word
of God, except 'Agabus'.
I've searched and searched but I could never find a continuation
of the 'office' of a prophet working in the church!
Same with the 'Apostolic' office. The New Testament teaches that
the apostles of Christ were men to whom Christ appeared after
His resurrection and whom He commissioned to be His personal
spokesman. [Acts1:21-26;5:32;1Cor.9:1;15:8]. Ephesians 2:20
and 3:5 teach that the apostles and prophets had foundational
offices through which Christ 'established' the church as the newly
formed [constituted] people of God, a church of both Jews and of
course Gentiles make up the body of Christ.
A lot of men and a few 'ladies' are saying that they are 'truely'
appointed apostles who take 'authority' over people that 'has'
not been given to them by God!
Corresponding those who claim they are 'true' prophets of God
are making 'strange' prophetic utterances that are not from the
Spirit of God and go 'unchallenged' and tested and proved by
the Word of God!
The church of today no doubt is I believe 'far' from what scripture
states it should be!
But Pastors are to feed the flock of God: Pastors ordained under
sheperds and over- seers.
1Peter 2: Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the
oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy
lucre, but of a ready mind;
1Peter 5:3: Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being
ensamples to the flock.
1Peter 5:4: And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall
receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
We need to pray for God's appointed pastors not those that are
self-exaltedand appointed!
Jer. 3:15: And I will give you pastors according to mine heart,
which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.
Pray God will 'remove' the 'phoney' ones!
Jer. 23:2: Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against
the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock,
and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold,
I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.
God Bless!
Joe
Set free can you show me where pastor is mentioned in the bible? I find it only once. I find no mention of any person being a pastor any where in the new testament.
By name yes, but there are others mentioned in acts.
Ephesians 4:11-16
11*And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12*for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13*till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14*that we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15*but speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16*from whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
According to scripture if there is no need for one of the ministry gifts than there is no need for any of the ministry gifts. But this is clearly not the case, there is still much needed from all of the ministry gifts.
In their doctrinal statements the worlds largest charasmatic denomination say that the ministry gifts of apostle and prophet are no longer functioning. This is clearly the teaching of man's traditon and is a false doctrine.
The problem is there are not too many good examples of any of the ministry gifts. Few are willing to deny self and shoulder their cross. The most popular are those that allow others to boast or even boast about their own accomplishments. Of course they do it all "in the name of Jesus".
All of the ministry gifts are still operating in the body of Christ today. Because they are a part of Christ and from Christ. The biggest enemy of the Church is not false prophets, false apostles or false pastors. It is self, the carnality of man at work in the Church.
You do not learn how to be a true pastor by going to college and studying ministry 101. You learn Christ and take "humility 101" at the university of the Holy Spirit.
Then if it is according to the purposes of God you may be a pastor, prophet, or apostle.
This is a big problem today man is going around telling everyone what God wants them to be. This is not confirmation, it is manipulation. Jesus is building the Church and He appoints who is what in it.
We would all do well to remember Jesus' words to His disciples in the book of Matthew.
Matthew 23:1-12
1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, 2 “The teachers of religious law and the Pharisees are the official interpreters of the Scriptures. 3 So practice and obey whatever they say to you, but don’t follow their example. For they don’t practice what they teach. 4 They crush you with impossible religious demands and never lift a finger to help ease the burden.
5 “Everything they do is for show. On their arms they wear extra wide prayer boxes with Scripture verses inside,* and they wear extra long tassels on their robes. 6 And how they love to sit at the head table at banquets and in the most prominent seats in the synagogue! 7 They enjoy the attention they get on the streets, and they enjoy being called ‘Rabbi.’* 8 Don’t ever let anyone call you ‘Rabbi,’ for you have only one teacher, and all of you are on the same level as brothers and sisters.* 9 And don’t address anyone here on earth as ‘Father,’ for only God in heaven is your spiritual Father. 10 And don’t let anyone call you ‘Master,’ for there is only one master, the Messiah. 11 The greatest among you must be a servant. 12 But those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.
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Well said, Jiggyfly!
The Body needs all the parts to function as a body, and it seems, for some reason, the apostles, prophets, evangelists and teachers are not in the church anymore.
They either have their own ministries outside the church (such as Billy Graham), or in the case of teachers, they are in the colleges (where we have to pay to learn from them), and others who have prophetic or apostolic gifting have been shut down or made to feel like their gifting is useless, un-biblical, or no longer needed, which may be the case for SetFree.
Prophetic gifing can be very threatening to a pastor if it is not understood and ministered correctly.
It is also very important to realize that we need to hear what God is saying to us. In the case of 9-11 and SetFree's vision, God was likely calling out for people to interceede for the event - for the prevention of the event, protection, salvation of those who could lose their lives, etc.
We can't look up "terrorist attacks" in our concordance and find that some planes are going to be hijacked and crashed into the twin towers on Sept 11, so God in his mercy, speaks to us just as he did in the New Testament.
We are his sheep and his sheep hear his voice and will not follow a stranger (John 10:4).
This is a very interesting thread, with great discussion!
As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another...
The Body needs all the parts to function as a body, and it seems, for some reason, the apostles, prophets, evangelists and teachers are not in the church anymore.
They either have their own ministries outside the church (such as Billy Graham), or in the case of teachers, they are in the colleges (where we have to pay to learn from them), and others who have prophetic or apostolic gifting have been shut down or made to feel like their gifting is useless, un-biblical, or no longer needed, which may be the case for SetFree.
Prophetic gifing can be very threatening to a pastor if it is not understood and ministered correctly.
It is also very important to realize that we need to hear what God is saying to us. In the case of 9-11 and SetFree's vision, God was likely calling out for people to interceede for the event - for the prevention of the event, protection, salvation of those who could lose their lives, etc.
We can't look up "terrorist attacks" in our concordance and find that some planes are going to be hijacked and crashed into the twin towers on Sept 11, so God in his mercy, speaks to us just as he did in the New Testament.
We are his sheep and his sheep hear his voice and will not follow a stranger (John 10:4).
This is a very interesting thread, with great discussion!
As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another...
I agree will Richard.
The word translated Pastor should actually read Shepherd. A pastor leads sheep, goats and pigs, a shepherd leads sheep only.
The Bible says that Christ is the true Shepherd.
There are apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds and teachers, in that order. These are primarily ministry gifts and not to be used mainly as titles. An apostle is a sent one. One sent to minister the gospel somewhere. A true prophet prophesies the mind of God.
The prominence of the 'pastor' came about because we have not heeded the advise of Paul and the Lord Jesus that in the last days many will arise to make gain of the church. The Lord is in the process of purifying His church. In the past He permitted these oversights by His people but He is coming for a Church without spot or wrinkle or any such thing. The realisation of the deception in the church system will become more evident to true and sincere seekers. This love of titles and decay started from the roman catholic system and has gradually crept into the pentecostal churches.
The Lord will restore His church (universal body of believers) unto Himself. Elijah was reminded that there were many whom the Lord reserved for himself who had not bowed their knees to baal. Even so, there are many now who have not bowed their knees to baal. Amen
The word translated Pastor should actually read Shepherd. A pastor leads sheep, goats and pigs, a shepherd leads sheep only.
The Bible says that Christ is the true Shepherd.
There are apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds and teachers, in that order. These are primarily ministry gifts and not to be used mainly as titles. An apostle is a sent one. One sent to minister the gospel somewhere. A true prophet prophesies the mind of God.
The prominence of the 'pastor' came about because we have not heeded the advise of Paul and the Lord Jesus that in the last days many will arise to make gain of the church. The Lord is in the process of purifying His church. In the past He permitted these oversights by His people but He is coming for a Church without spot or wrinkle or any such thing. The realisation of the deception in the church system will become more evident to true and sincere seekers. This love of titles and decay started from the roman catholic system and has gradually crept into the pentecostal churches.
The Lord will restore His church (universal body of believers) unto Himself. Elijah was reminded that there were many whom the Lord reserved for himself who had not bowed their knees to baal. Even so, there are many now who have not bowed their knees to baal. Amen
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Amen!
Amen Mike!
I f You read my posts you see how my wife
and I have struggled against the 'organized'
church structure versus the rule of God.
And letting the Holy Spirit through God's Word
dictate to the pastor and the 'leaders' of
the church for direction and guidance!
But Jesus promised His Bride 'Will be adorned
and without spot or wrinkle! So be it!
God Bless!
Your brother in Christ,
Joe
Mike said:
Amen Mike!
I f You read my posts you see how my wife
and I have struggled against the 'organized'
church structure versus the rule of God.
And letting the Holy Spirit through God's Word
dictate to the pastor and the 'leaders' of
the church for direction and guidance!
But Jesus promised His Bride 'Will be adorned
and without spot or wrinkle! So be it!
God Bless!
Your brother in Christ,
Joe