The gift of free will.

[Rhema]

Only a worldly person could even think about. Verses and relate to verses in a Bible as if verses are authoritative or ordain by GOD. GOD gave us a “Book” but only a rogue would think HE gave us 3.14 to digest. And to think in those terms, “Hop Alone Cassidy”

Get back to me when you're making more sense.

Thanks,
Rhema

 

[PloughBoy]

@Rhema thanks for sharing your view.

When I look at the verse @Curtis referenced about before the creation of the world, that scripture is also cross-referenced
with Revelation 13:8 which reads "All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written
in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world. "

and also 1st Peter 1:19-20, which reads
" but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect.
He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. "

I think your point mentioned is a good one @Rhema in the sense that you are thinking critically and looking to see
if it makes sense (before the world was created) for that word to be translated that way. However,
to take your critical analysis to the next level, I would say don't just look at if that translation makes
sense just within that verse, but see how it compares to the full Cannon of scripture.

One thing that helped me when I was studying this years ago, was to realize that God is eternal as @PloughBoy mentioned
and His ways are not like ours (they are far greater).

If I may give an illustration @Rhema . Look up. Look up at the night sky and see the stars in Job 38:6-7 speaking of creation
which reads
"On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone— while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy? "

The light that you are seeing @Rhema , those stars that you are seeing, are you looking at them as they are now?
The answer is no, you are not. You are actually looking into the past. You are seeing stars some which don't even exist anymore (because they exploded).

So how is it that you are looking into the past when you look at stars? Well, we see with our eyes, and the light from many of these galaxies are millions
of light years away, which means you are seeing them how they looked a long time ago because it takes time for light to travel, 5.9 trillion miles is a light year.
And when you see the star, that is because the light has finally reached our planet; and by the time we finally see it, that is no longer how it is. You are looking into the
past which has just materialized in your space of the universe.

-- Similarly God set his plan in eternity past and we live in time, and we are just seeing the Salvation
of Jesus the great work, which happened before time was even created. It might be too much for some to grasp but that is ok, as @PloughBoy stated
our minds can't always grasp the magnitude of God's greatness and that is fine. Faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of God, Hear and believe.

This time you put your foot in it this time and you went into “Light Speed” [ you got saved a long time ago, and That light just appeared now on The day you thought you got saved, but in reality the earth just got the message.] from Eternity.

Now there is no past or future in Eternity There is no time there. That place most be GOD. For my mind has not the ability to go there and return to give you answer. But I tell one thing you did put the pedal to The Metal.

Now that is the language of a True Child of GOD and not a mere mortal. For a mere mortal cannot reach that far.

 

[PloughBoy]

Get back to me when you're making more sense.

Thanks,
Rhema

For my words can never make sense to you, for you have not the Gifts of Languages. For you admitted this Truth by your own mouth for you do not have the ability or the ears to hear, for I can only be a barbarian to the receiving thoughts to your mind.

Not would you not agree?

 

[Rhema]

that scripture is also cross-referenced with Revelation 13:8

Well, whoever did that is making up their own fables.... so who did the cross reference ??

Don't we need to let the actual words speak for themselves ??

απο καταβολης κοσμου (Rev. 13:8) is just not προ χρονων αιωνιων (2 Tim. 1:9) nor even προ καταβολης κοσμου (1 Peter 1:20)

Reminds me of the people who invented purgatory from their inferences of synonyms.

Better yet, it reminds me of the JW prohibition of blood transfusions, inferred from the OT command to eat no blood.

@Jesus_is_LORD, I quite understand the modern interpretations of these two passages, but they are both MODERN, and interpretations.

Just because one might do a "word study" on an English word (e.g. "foundation") does NOT mean that the various Greek words carry the same connotations. To be honest, translation is an absolute mess, as each one I have ever read carries a theological bias of the organization that published it (e.g. KJV - Church of England, aka the Episcopal Church). That's why I decided nearly 50 years ago to learn Greek for myself.

Yet, I have no problem with metaphor, and we do have a fundamental metaphor written here:

And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;​

(Ephesians 2:20 KJV)​

Jesus Christ himself is the cornerstone of the foundation of our Faith, which is comprised of his teachings.

If Jesus came preaching the Gospel, then the Gospel is what Jesus preached.

I would caution you, however, to not let your church experience prevent you from reading what was actually written.

So get one of these:

The Interlinear KJV-NIV Parallel New Testament in Greek…

The Interlinear KJV-NIV Parallel New Testament does thr…

www.goodreads.com

Use if for a couple of years and you'll see what I mean.

God bless,
Rhema

see how it compares to the full Cannon of scripture.

Whose canon ?? My apologies if you've not read the posts where I addressed this issue.

 

[Rhema]

And yes some are ignored and he doesnt even bother offering them the gift of salvation.

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.​

(Matthew 28:19-20 KJV)​

Either everyone counts, or no one counts.

Rhema

 

[Rhema]

I understand how people would tremble in horror that there own daughter /son would never be offered the gift of salvation, but from my life experiences and scripture, it is indeed so.

Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.​

(Acts 2:37-39 KJV)​

Either everyone counts, or no one counts.

Rhema

 

[Rhema]

15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

Let's actually look at this verse:

For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.​

(Romans 9:15 KJV)​

But what exactly did God say to Moses? Here's the entire source passage that Paul referenced:

And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name. And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory. And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock: And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by: And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.​

(Exodus 33:17-23 KJV)​

In truth this means that the choices God makes are His and and His alone, and these will likely not align to what you or any other believer thinks. If God is gracious to those people deemed unworthy by (select the denomination of your choice), then in essence, ... too bad. In chapter nine, Paul was addressing the Jew who was offended that the Gentile might receive Grace and Mercy.

... not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?​

(Romans 9:24 KJV)​

Indeed, what if God is gracious to the LGBTQ? Or the people you deem unworthy ??

Yet I find it curious that God said absolutely NOTHING to Moses in the passage from Exodus about God hardening anyone's heart. So Paul's conclusion is a bit puzzling -

Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.​

(Romans 9:18 KJV)​

Puzzling, and I think somewhat problematic.

Rhema

 

[Rhema]

Not would you not agree?

Get back to me when you're making more sense.

 

[PloughBoy]

I do see your reading is up to par, but comprehending some is far beyond you, by design. For you do have a habit of pulling the saints down to wallow in the mire and it seems your are more comfortable there. It must be your abode.

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

Well, whoever did that is making up their own fables.... so who did the cross reference ??

Don't we need to let the actual words speak for themselves ??

απο καταβολης κοσμου (Rev. 13:8) is just not προ χρονων αιωνιων (2 Tim. 1:9) nor even προ καταβολης κοσμου (1 Peter 1:20)

Reminds me of the people who invented purgatory from their inferences of synonyms.

Better yet, it reminds me of the JW prohibition of blood transfusions, inferred from the OT command to eat no blood.

@Jesus_is_LORD, I quite understand the modern interpretations of these two passages, but they are both MODERN, and interpretations.

Just because one might do a "word study" on an English word (e.g. "foundation") does NOT mean that the various Greek words carry the same connotations. To be honest, translation is an absolute mess, as each one I have ever read carries a theological bias of the organization that published it (e.g. KJV - Church of England, aka the Episcopal Church). That's why I decided nearly 50 years ago to learn Greek for myself.

Yet, I have no problem with metaphor, and we do have a fundamental metaphor written here:

And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;​

(Ephesians 2:20 KJV)​

Jesus Christ himself is the cornerstone of the foundation of our Faith, which is comprised of his teachings.

If Jesus came preaching the Gospel, then the Gospel is what Jesus preached.

I would caution you, however, to not let your church experience prevent you from reading what was actually written.

So get one of these:

The Interlinear KJV-NIV Parallel New Testament in Greek…

The Interlinear KJV-NIV Parallel New Testament does thr…

www.goodreads.com

Use if for a couple of years and you'll see what I mean.

God bless,
Rhema


Whose canon ?? My apologies if you've not read the posts where I addressed this issue.

Thanks for sharing your perspective.

And thanks also for speaking about the interliner Bible, I'm aware and use it in my studies as well.

I agree with you that experiences shouldn't take the place of scripture, although we should be aware that many people
unfortunately use their experiences when they interpret scripture.

Once again, thanks for sharing what you believe and helping me understand your thought process.
I see things differently but I'm glad that you were able to share what you believe. Thank you.

 

[PloughBoy]

Thanks for sharing your perspective.

And thanks also for speaking about the interliner Bible, I'm aware and use it in my studies as well.

I agree with you that experiences shouldn't take the place of scripture, although we should be aware that many people
unfortunately use their experiences when they interpret scripture.

Once again, thanks for sharing what you believe and helping me understand your thought process.
I see things differently but I'm glad that you were able to share what you believe. Thank you.

Always be careful whom you shake hands with and who you bid God speed . And do not play with devils. For devils are cunning, and that cunning is a gift by GOD to him to train you in the ways of righteousness.

S’Il vous plait

PS. Be wise even in your
Ending salutations.

 

[Rhema]

I do see your reading is up to par, but comprehending some is far beyond you, by design. For you do have a habit of pulling the saints down to wallow in the mire and it seems your are more comfortable there. It must be your abode.

 

[Rhema]

Thank you.

You are quite welcome.

And thanks also for speaking about the interliner Bible, I'm aware and use it in my studies as well.

Might I ask which gloss ??

The hard copy is always at hand next to my keyboard, but I'm sure you can tell from my posts that I link (because one should) to the Liddell Scott Lexicon, and quote (as needed) from the Cambridge Greek Lexicon (alas no links to the Cambridge are available).

The specific NT linked above has both the NIV, and the KJV next to Marshall's gloss across the page. One book, easy to compare. Over the decades I've only had minor instances where I had to disagree with Marshall. But the differences between the NIV and the KJV scream out in agony.

God bless,
Rhema

I see things differently but I'm glad that you were able to share what you believe.

Indeed. But I can assure you that the reason you see things differently is only because we've not had the time to align our Definitional Frameworks or establish our Presuppositional Foundations. I am not a stranger to the Evangelical worldview, having studied with Dr. Francis Schaeffer at L'Abri.

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

You are quite welcome.




Might I ask which gloss ??

The hard copy is always at hand next to my keyboard, but I'm sure you can tell from my posts that I link (because one should) to the Liddell Scott Lexicon, and quote (as needed) from the Cambridge Greek Lexicon (alas no links to the Cambridge are available).

The specific NT linked above has both the NIV, and the KJV next to Marshall's gloss across the page. One book, easy to compare. Over the decades I've only had minor instances where I had to disagree with Marshall. But the differences between the NIV and the KJV scream out in agony.

Yes, thanks for asking.

I have Strongs Concordance hard copy OT Hebrew and NT Greek ( Amazon.com )

And for online, I use Biblehub ( Job 38:7 Hebrew Text Analysis )

 

[Rhema]

I have Strongs Concordance hard copy OT Hebrew and NT Greek

Well.... technically, that's neither a Lexicon nor an Interlinear.

The Interlinear NT I recommend is -

The Interlinear KJV-NIV Parallel New Testament in Greek…

The Interlinear KJV-NIV Parallel New Testament does thr…

www.goodreads.com

The KJV and NIV are on the left page, and here's a representative sample of what the right page looks like.

The English gloss (the selected English word for any specific Greek word) is written underneath the Greek text.

And for online, I use Biblehub

??? The link took me to a site called "Biblia"

Job 38:7 NLT - as the morning stars sang… | Biblia

as the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?

biblia.com

I think the forum changed it....

Rhema

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

Well.... technically, that's neither a Lexicon nor an Interlinear.

The Interlinear NT I recommend is -

The Interlinear KJV-NIV Parallel New Testament in Greek…

The Interlinear KJV-NIV Parallel New Testament does thr…

www.goodreads.com

The KJV and NIV are on the left page, and here's a representative sample of what the right page looks like.

Rhema

Thank you much @Rhema . I will purchase that to take my Bible Study to the next level.

Looks great. That seems like a good resource to have a hard copy of. Will do.

 

[Gregoryp]

You are quite welcome.




Might I ask which gloss ??

The hard copy is always at hand next to my keyboard, but I'm sure you can tell from my posts that I link (because one should) to the Liddell Scott Lexicon, and quote (as needed) from the Cambridge Greek Lexicon (alas no links to the Cambridge are available).

The specific NT linked above has both the NIV, and the KJV next to Marshall's gloss across the page. One book, easy to compare. Over the decades I've only had minor instances where I had to disagree with Marshall. But the differences between the NIV and the KJV scream out in agony.

God bless,
Rhema


Indeed. But I can assure you that the reason you see things differently is only because we've not had the time to align our Definitional Frameworks or establish our Presuppositional Foundations. I am not a stranger to the Evangelical worldview, having studied with Dr. Francis Schaeffer at L'Abri.

So let me get this straight... 1/ Jesus has a very poor grasp of the english language and therefore we all have to learn GREEK?? 2/ God obviously has no authority over the world and this is why Bibles can only be read in other foreign languages like Greek and Aramaic? 4/ The holy spirit is silent when we read these bibles, even evil ones like the NIV. Now I feel vindicated in fleeing from organised religion or men reading bibles to an audience.

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

So let me get this straight... 1/ Jesus has a very poor grasp of the english language and therefore we all have to learn GREEK?? 2/ God obviously has no authority over the world and this is why Bibles can only be read in other foreign languages like Greek and Aramaic? 4/ The holy spirit is silent when we read these bibles, even evil ones like the NIV. Now I feel vindicated in fleeing from organised religion or men reading bibles to an audience.

I don't want to speak for @Rhema as her position on this issue is not totally mine (though there is overlap), but in @Rhema 's defense
I'll just share this based on my perspective.

So, you do bring up very good points @Gregoryp , especially regarding the Holy Spirit.

However what I will say is balance. I think balance is key.

I think that we should be aware of the work of the Holy Spirit as Jesus told us:

" But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own;
He will speak only what He hears, and He will tell you what is yet to come. "
- John 16:13

Yet we are also to use our minds and study as well as the Holy Scriptures tells us:

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."
- 2 Timothy 2:15

When I think of the Holy Spirit leading us into truth, I think about something that we don't do but allow the Spirit to do,
on the opposite end, when I think of studying, I think about work, effort on our part to go deeper.

So balance is key. Studying does not contradict your submission to the Holy Spirit (remember the Holy Spirit also brings to our remembrance what we have studied),
and being spirit led as a believer and lifting up the work of the spirit does not contradict the need to study. Balance is key.

Some denominations like the Apostolic do great with emphasizing the spirit but may neglect studying, while
some like Methodist may study much but not emphasize the work of the Spirit as much, Balance is key.
Catholics ( I know they have much error) may emphasize confession and sin, sin, sin, while some Nondenominational assemblies may emphasize grace, grace, grace.
Balance is key, awareness of sin and grace is important.

So you do make great points @Gregoryp , however I think your emphasis of the Spirit which we all need to be aware of,
does not take away from @Rhema 's emphasis of studying.

Your thoughts are desired and welcomed, let me know how this sounds to you. Do you agree that balance is key?
God Bless

 

[Gregoryp]

https://www.jesus-is-lord.com/best.html as per usual, to save me typing, this explains everything nicely. Suffice to say, when it was time to purchase a study bible, I was immediately drawn to the King james Bible. It is irrefutably the most popular and the most accurate english translation. And it sure is God written.

 

[Rhema]

1/ Jesus has a very poor grasp of the english language and therefore we all have to learn GREEK??

Now you're being a troll, and I should just let it go. But maybe you are that confused, so I should clarify.

Your English language translations are garbage. You already know this about the NIV. But anyone with an ounce of integrity and a pound of effort can easily obtain a Good Greek Interlinear (see my previous links, ... or PM me your address and I'll send you one for free). A New Testament Interlinear lets one compare the initial Greek text of the New Testament with English Bibles that masquerade as "translations."

But to answer your direct question, 1/, Jesus had absolutely NO grasp of the English language, as English didn't exist back then. Historical sources show that Jesus would have spoken Aramaic, which leads to the assertion of the Peshitta Primacy. However, it's more likely that the New Testament was initially written in Greek, at least Paul's epistles to Gentile churches, so ... yes... in order to ensure that you're not being snookered by English translations published by Church Denominations that have both an agenda and a theological bias, learn the dang language.

And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the epistle from Laodicea.​

(Colossians 4:16 KJV)​

2/ God obviously has no authority over the world and this is why Bibles can only be read in other foreign languages like Greek and Aramaic?

So why doesn't your "authoritative" God ONLY allow the RIGHT English translation to exist then ?? Surely you're not sitting there trying to tell me that ALL English translations of the Bible agree with one another ?? Then again, maybe you haven't looked. Here's an example:

(Matthew 4:17 KJV) From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.​

(Matthew 4:17 DRB) From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say: Do penance, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.​

And here's another example:

(John 1:1 KJV) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.​

(John 1:1 NWT) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.​

That should be sufficient. So... which English translation did your God proclaim was the RIGHT one ??

As for ME, I found out that none could be truly trusted, just as YOU don't trust any of the churches that are around you. So I decided that for ME, I needed to learn Greek so I could read the New Testament in the language in which it was originally published in the WEST without translation or denomination bias. Had I known about the Church of the East at a younger age, I most likely would have chosen to learn Aramaic instead.

4/ The holy spirit is silent when we read these bibles,

(So, where's 3/ ??)
.

So you think the Holy Spirit is silent when one reads the New Testament as it was initially written in Greek ?? Or is it your position that no one should be reading any New Testament at all because the Holy Spirit just up and tells you stuff ?? Might you clarify ?

But I do think that's the most bizarre thing I've read from you. (Not the least of which is your claim that you're the only one on the planet who has the Holy Spirit.)

Now I feel vindicated in fleeing from ... men reading bibles to an audience.

And he (Jesus) came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.​

(Luke 4:16-19 KJV)​

Rhema

So let me get this straight...

Good luck with that. I hope my post helped.