The Law of the OT

[Dave M]

Is the law still relative in God's eyes?

Especially in light of Luke 16,
To me, this says that John the Baptist is a time marker we can see where salvation comes into the light, and from that time forward salvation is to be preached.
However, the law has not passed away or vanished. Jesus seems to be saying heaven and earth will pass away before the law does.

Luke 16
16. The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the gospel of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it.
17. But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for a single stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law

I do not think we can fully understand what the law is if we just read the OT, the NT is what actually reveals the law's purpose and true meaning. In the NT we will find much scripture about the Law.


Jesus himself says he came not to abolish the law but fulfill the law.

Matthew 5-17
17. “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

I have always wondered what fulfilled means in a way that I could relate to what is being said. I know he was the only one to keep the law fully and perfectly.
But I think it is more than that. I think it also means the true meaning of the law was never revealed until it was actually fulfilled. By Jesus fulfilling the law he shines a light on the true meaning and purpose of the law, which seems was never revealed in the OT. Jesus himself said the law

According to the scripture, The meaning of the law was to show us how sinful we truly are and how we could never earn our way to heaven. But it hangs on loving God with all your heart soul and mind and loving your neighbor as yourself.

Matthew 22
37 Jesus declared, “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’e
38 This is the first and greatest commandment.
39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’
40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

So in light of the NT teaching on the OT law, we know that it never saved anyone and that it was incomplete until Jesus came and fulfilled it and revealed to us what it really meant.

The Law Never saved anyone

Romans 3-20
20. For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

James 2-10
10. For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


So is the OT law still relative in God's eyes?? I personally do not see how it could be. However, this is where I see a big difference in the way some think about the bible, and has me wondering.

The OT was to the Jews mainly and God calls them "my people" many times all throughout the OT. And God spoke to the Jews in a way that seems to indicate that what he was saying was only for the Jews and it was an everlasting thing. An example of this is Jewish Statues and Law.

Leviticus 16:29
And this shall be a statute forever unto you: that in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, ye shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all, whether it be one of your own country or a stranger that sojourneth among you:

Leviticus 16:31
It shall be a sabbath of rest unto you, and ye shall afflict your souls, by a statute forever.

Leviticus 23:21
And ye shall proclaim on a selfsame day, that it may be a holy convocation unto you: ye shall do no servile work therein: it shall be a statute forever in all your dwellings throughout your generations.


So was he telling them to keep his OT statues forever as it seems plainly written, or was he only giving him the partial meaning of all this, and using all this to Point to Jesus Christ his son who would fulfill and reveal the full meaning of the law?

To me it seems the NT and Jesus coming is a fulfillment of the law meaning Jesus revealed its true purpose and reason for the Law, God said the law is forever Jesus does not contradict this, he just explains it in a way that the OT did not reveal.
The whole law hangs on Loving God with all you got, and your neighbor as yourself. It always been about that, but it was not understood until THe NT. So I have to conclude I personally do not think God sees the OT law relative today. , but does see it relative today in the way Jesus explains it.

I see the big divide on this subject as a lot of people I talk with seem to think that the Jewish people are still under the law and it is relative in God's eyes. Yet we know that no one ever kept the law, and the law never saved anyone, so how can it be relative??

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

Heaven and earth shall pass away but God’s Word shall never pass away until all of it, including the law is “fulfilled.” Meaning the law is also prophecy.

But the carnally minded man cannot “hear” what the spiritual law is saying. The parts of the law and prophets that were about Christs first coming have been fulfilled. But not all prophecy in the law and prophets has been fulfilled, and will not be fulfilled “till heaven and earth pass away”.

The law is also “fulfilled” in all of God’s saints, as God’s law is also written on our hearts and minds by way of the Holy Spirit. This is the New Covenant that Jesus brought into force after His death.

 

[Dave M]

This is the New Covenant that Jesus brought into force after His death.

so what happens concerning the old covenant? is it still for the Jew today?

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

so what happens concerning the old covenant? is it still for the Jew today?

The New Covenant Jesus brought into force is for both Jew and Gentile. Though many Jews still cling to the Old Covenant and law of Moses, they can never be made perfect by their own works.

The law of Moses was weak, not because of the law, but because of the weakness of man’s flesh.

Romans 8:3
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

The patterns of the first tabernacle, Covenant, and the law was to foreshadow greater spiritual things to come in Christ.

Hebrews 8

King James Version

​

8 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.”

 

[PloughBoy]

Is the law still relative in God's eyes?

Especially in light of Luke 16,
To me, this says that John the Baptist is a time marker we can see where salvation comes into the light, and from that time forward salvation is to be preached.
However, the law has not passed away or vanished. Jesus seems to be saying heaven and earth will pass away before the law does.

Luke 16
16. The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the gospel of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it.
17. But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for a single stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law

I do not think we can fully understand what the law is if we just read the OT, the NT is what actually reveals the law's purpose and true meaning. In the NT we will find much scripture about the Law.


Jesus himself says he came not to abolish the law but fulfill the law.

Matthew 5-17
17. “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

I have always wondered what fulfilled means in a way that I could relate to what is being said. I know he was the only one to keep the law fully and perfectly.
But I think it is more than that. I think it also means the true meaning of the law was never revealed until it was actually fulfilled. By Jesus fulfilling the law he shines a light on the true meaning and purpose of the law, which seems was never revealed in the OT. Jesus himself said the law

According to the scripture, The meaning of the law was to show us how sinful we truly are and how we could never earn our way to heaven. But it hangs on loving God with all your heart soul and mind and loving your neighbor as yourself.

Matthew 22
37 Jesus declared, “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’e
38 This is the first and greatest commandment.
39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’
40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

So in light of the NT teaching on the OT law, we know that it never saved anyone and that it was incomplete until Jesus came and fulfilled it and revealed to us what it really meant.

The Law Never saved anyone

Romans 3-20
20. For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

James 2-10
10. For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


So is the OT law still relative in God's eyes?? I personally do not see how it could be. However, this is where I see a big difference in the way some think about the bible, and has me wondering.

The OT was to the Jews mainly and God calls them "my people" many times all throughout the OT. And God spoke to the Jews in a way that seems to indicate that what he was saying was only for the Jews and it was an everlasting thing. An example of this is Jewish Statues and Law.

Leviticus 16:29
And this shall be a statute forever unto you: that in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, ye shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all, whether it be one of your own country or a stranger that sojourneth among you:

Leviticus 16:31
It shall be a sabbath of rest unto you, and ye shall afflict your souls, by a statute forever.

Leviticus 23:21
And ye shall proclaim on a selfsame day, that it may be a holy convocation unto you: ye shall do no servile work therein: it shall be a statute forever in all your dwellings throughout your generations.


So was he telling them to keep his OT statues forever as it seems plainly written, or was he only giving him the partial meaning of all this, and using all this to Point to Jesus Christ his son who would fulfill and reveal the full meaning of the law?

To me it seems the NT and Jesus coming is a fulfillment of the law meaning Jesus revealed its true purpose and reason for the Law, God said the law is forever Jesus does not contradict this, he just explains it in a way that the OT did not reveal.
The whole law hangs on Loving God with all you got, and your neighbor as yourself. It always been about that, but it was not understood until THe NT. So I have to conclude I personally do not think God sees the OT law relative today. , but does see it relative today in the way Jesus explains it.

I see the big divide on this subject as a lot of people I talk with seem to think that the Jewish people are still under the law and it is relative in God's eyes. Yet we know that no one ever kept the law, and the law never saved anyone, so how can it be relative??

Well i do declare, the scales are falling more and more from your eyes, in a minute i do believe you are becoming a {True Theologian")
Your quote"
But I think it is more than that. I think it also means the true meaning of the law was never revealed until it was actually fulfilled. By Jesus fulfilling the law he shines a light on the true meaning and purpose of the law, which seems was never revealed in the OT. Jesus himself said the law"

I am beginning to like youe style: now keep going and bring it on and Stay on The Path!

 

[Dave M]

13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.”

to me that says the old covenant is no longer, and if people choose to follow it that is on them, as it has been explained they could never keep it and have already fallen out of it. But I do not think God recognizes it any longer. As many claim.

 

[PloughBoy]

The Law has more meaning than what most people think. There is no error or weakness in The LAW of GOD it is doing what it was Created to do and to , Accomplish and Accomplishing What it all was design to do! Bill keep doing what you have been doing and The LORD your GOD will Give you more and he will Give you more and Then more keep doing as you been doing, So far he has gotten you here and He will continue giving you more, Just Trust him and keep it moving,
He is
Developing your Style he is doing a Good work of identity in you for Our Place is in "ETERNITY" by pass this place and keep it moving. I finally got a glimpse of thee in "ETERNITY" So Bill bring it on and Keep it moving. and By now you should know The Language I speak, You ears should be developing that you sense the sound as if it was, A distance drummer, drumming in a far off land.

I am PloughBoy, and I am Carrying the Mail Coming from a Distance Land.

 

[PloughBoy]

to me that says the old covenant is no longer, and if people choose to follow it that is on them, as it has been explained they could never keep it and have already fallen out of it. But I do not think God recognizes it any longer. As many claim.

It is as if it is a "LADDER". and as you climb the LADDER you Compel others come follow me. You do not throw the Ladder away, There are more following you, "follow me as I follow Christ' Their is nothing wrong with The Moral laws of GOD. Not referring for the over 600 ceremonial laws of GOD given At Sinai. The Moral Laws are Holy.

 

[PloughBoy]

to me that says the old covenant is no longer, and if people choose to follow it that is on them, as it has been explained they could never keep it and have already fallen out of it. But I do not think God recognizes it any longer. As many claim.

Once you come to Christ and become a New Creature then, for Old testament law is GOOD it is a School Master. do you throw away your kindergarten teachings? do you throw alway Alphabets do you throw away your "Time Tables" 1x1 =1 do you throw away 1x1x1= 3?

"But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24Wherefore the law was our Schoolmaster To Bring Us Unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

So what about Those that must climb to Faith behind us ?

It is not complex it is easy But MAN will Try To Complicate The things of GOD, teaching Things They do not understand!

For there are many:
American Standard Version
desiring to be teachers of the law, though they understand neither what they say, nor whereof they confidently affirm.

Now Bill dig it out what you already know and search as if it is Hidden GOLD! Brother we need you and we do not need The Regurgitation from "want toBees".

I am PloughBoy and I am Carrying THE MAIL

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

to me that says the old covenant is no longer, and if people choose to follow it that is on them, as it has been explained they could never keep it and have already fallen out of it. But I do not think God recognizes it any longer. As many claim.

There is nothing wrong if people choose to follow the law of Moses, after all it too is also the Word of God.

Jesus said in Matthew 5:19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”


They just need to understand that they are not saved based on their own works of the law.

Salvation by grace through faith has been the standard well before the law of Moses, even during the law, and after the law of Moses.

Romans 4:13-16

King James Version

​

13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,”

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Is the law still relative in God's eyes?

Yes, it defines and reflects sins, Rom. 7:7. It's like a medical diagnosis, which does NOT treat or cure disease, but does reveal what disease you have, where it is, how long has it progressed, etc.

 

[Brother Paul]

Is the law still relative in God's eyes?

Especially in light of Luke 16,
To me, this says that John the Baptist is a time marker we can see where salvation comes into the light, and from that time forward salvation is to be preached.
However, the law has not passed away or vanished. Jesus seems to be saying heaven and earth will pass away before the law does.

Luke 16
16. The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the gospel of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it.
17. But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for a single stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law

I do not think we can fully understand what the law is if we just read the OT, the NT is what actually reveals the law's purpose and true meaning. In the NT we will find much scripture about the Law.


Jesus himself says he came not to abolish the law but fulfill the law.

Matthew 5-17
17. “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

I have always wondered what fulfilled means in a way that I could relate to what is being said. I know he was the only one to keep the law fully and perfectly.
But I think it is more than that. I think it also means the true meaning of the law was never revealed until it was actually fulfilled. By Jesus fulfilling the law he shines a light on the true meaning and purpose of the law, which seems was never revealed in the OT. Jesus himself said the law

According to the scripture, The meaning of the law was to show us how sinful we truly are and how we could never earn our way to heaven. But it hangs on loving God with all your heart soul and mind and loving your neighbor as yourself.

Matthew 22
37 Jesus declared, “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’e
38 This is the first and greatest commandment.
39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’
40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

So in light of the NT teaching on the OT law, we know that it never saved anyone and that it was incomplete until Jesus came and fulfilled it and revealed to us what it really meant.

The Law Never saved anyone

Romans 3-20
20. For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

James 2-10
10. For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


So is the OT law still relative in God's eyes?? I personally do not see how it could be. However, this is where I see a big difference in the way some think about the bible, and has me wondering.

The OT was to the Jews mainly and God calls them "my people" many times all throughout the OT. And God spoke to the Jews in a way that seems to indicate that what he was saying was only for the Jews and it was an everlasting thing. An example of this is Jewish Statues and Law.

Leviticus 16:29
And this shall be a statute forever unto you: that in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, ye shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all, whether it be one of your own country or a stranger that sojourneth among you:

Leviticus 16:31
It shall be a sabbath of rest unto you, and ye shall afflict your souls, by a statute forever.

Leviticus 23:21
And ye shall proclaim on a selfsame day, that it may be a holy convocation unto you: ye shall do no servile work therein: it shall be a statute forever in all your dwellings throughout your generations.


So was he telling them to keep his OT statues forever as it seems plainly written, or was he only giving him the partial meaning of all this, and using all this to Point to Jesus Christ his son who would fulfill and reveal the full meaning of the law?

To me it seems the NT and Jesus coming is a fulfillment of the law meaning Jesus revealed its true purpose and reason for the Law, God said the law is forever Jesus does not contradict this, he just explains it in a way that the OT did not reveal.
The whole law hangs on Loving God with all you got, and your neighbor as yourself. It always been about that, but it was not understood until THe NT. So I have to conclude I personally do not think God sees the OT law relative today. , but does see it relative today in the way Jesus explains it.

I see the big divide on this subject as a lot of people I talk with seem to think that the Jewish people are still under the law and it is relative in God's eyes. Yet we know that no one ever kept the law, and the law never saved anyone, so how can it be relative??

Yes but He has fulfilled it. So are you in Him and He in you?