The Second Commandment

[christserf]

Hello Board:

Exd 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

Exd 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I Yahweh thy Elochim am a jealous Elochim, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

It has been my experience that most Christians only hold to the second verse in this commandment. However, the first verse is just as much a command as the second. We are not to make images of animals, people, or celestial bodies. This command further clarified here:

Deu 4:15-19 Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that Yahweh spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire: Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female, The likeness of any beast that [is] on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air, The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth: And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which Yahweh thy Elochim hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.

In Yahweh's Love and Truth,

Christ's Serf

 

[jiggyfly]

christserf, God is not making two sepreate commands here. God is not saying it is wrong to make a statue or sculpture of people and animals. It is wrong to make a statue and worship it. If making graven images are wrong then what about old photographs? Please be careful about taking scripture out of context.

 

[stephen]

Hello....to you in HIS Love and Victory,


The hour is getting late here in the U.K. But surfing through.....I came across you post....it brought to mind the words of Jesus.

Matthew 19 v 19 "and thou shalt love thy neighbour as thy self" Also Mtt 22 v 36 - 39 "which is the first and great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto Him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment, and the second is like unto it. Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thy self. On all thse two commandments hang all the law and the prophets".

Jesus said "I am the WAY....the TRUTH...and the LIFE John ch 14

Without the WAY there is no GOING
Without the TRUTH there is no KNOWING
Without the LIFE there is no LIVING

I am the way, the truth, and the life.......thats what Jesus said.

Do you Know Jesus? That is the important thing today.
Have you surrendered to Him, asking Him to be your LOrd and Savior?

In His Love

 

[4Jesus]

My Brother Stephen - blessings to you in Jesus' name.

Your post is so simple, yet so full of Jesus. He is all we need - He is our everything - He is ..... I just can't find human word to glorify Him enough.

In Jesus,
David

 

[christserf]

jiggyfly:

christserf, God is not making two sepreate commands here.

The Fourth Commandment contains three clauses: remember the sabbath day, work six days, rest the seventh day.

The Second Commandment has two clauses.

God is not saying it is wrong to make a statue or sculpture of people and animals. It is wrong to make a statue and worship it.

On what basis do you say this? Verse 4 and 5 do not say 'thou shalt not make and worship a image'. They say 'thou shalt not make an image, thou shalt not worship an image'. There is no "and" connecting the thoughts. You have added that to the Scripture.

If making graven images are wrong then what about old photographs?

Respectfully, what does this have to do with whether or not what I have said is true?

Please be careful about taking scripture out of context.

What context have I left out?

stephen:

Do you Know Jesus? That is the important thing today.
Have you surrendered to Him, asking Him to be your LOrd and Savior?

Yes. And because I love Him I remember these words:

Jhn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

In Yahweh's Love and Truth,

Christ's Serf

 

[Chad]

christserf...jiggyfly pointed out the exact truth. GOD does not care if you make a statue for the sake of decoration purposes for example, in your front yard (landscape). He does NOT want you to *worship* these "fake gods". This is clearly evident ALL over the entire Bible. I do not know how much more clearer it can possibly get. GOD hates when people worship anything but Him, including statues or invisible false gods.

He did not say it is wrong to decorate your yard with statues of creatues. He does say so very many times in the entire Bible the penalty for worshiping false gods (this does include statues). Baal anyone?

You even quoted the verse that clarified this commandment

Exd 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I Yahweh thy Elochim am a jealous Elochim, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

It is evident right in front of your eyes, "thou shalt not bow down thyself to them nor serve them..." It is very clear what GOD meant in not making statues - not to worship them.

 

[jiggyfly]

stephen:

Quote:
Do you Know Jesus? That is the important thing today.
Have you surrendered to Him, asking Him to be your LOrd and Savior?

Yes. And because I love Him I remember these words:

Jhn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

In Yahweh's Love and Truth,

Christ's Serf

From your statement here it sounds as if you try to keep the old covenant still. But Jesus bought and brought a better covenant but you can not partake in both.

Galations 5:1-4
1*So Christ has really set us free. Now make sure that you stay free, and don’t get tied up again in slavery to the law.
2*Listen! I, Paul, tell you this: If you are counting on circumcision to make you right with God, then Christ cannot help you. 3*I’ll say it again. If you are trying to find favor with God by being circumcised, you must obey all of the regulations in the whole law of Moses. 4*For if you are trying to make yourselves right with God by keeping the law, you have been cut off from Christ! You have fallen away from God’s grace.

 

[Faithful Son]

I was always under the impression we had to keep both the commandments and Jesus' new covenant and commandments?
I am saying because of lack of knowledge, do you have any more verses that could help me understand jiggyfly?

Are you basically saying, you either keep the ten commandments or the new covenant?
The verse you posted talks about circumcision and that you cannot get right with God by keeping the law. The only way to be right with God is through Jesus, I understand that. But don't we keep both covenants when keeping right with Jesus?

 

[jiggyfly]

I was always under the impression we had to keep both the commandments and Jesus' new covenant and commandments?
I am saying because of lack of knowledge, do you have any more verses that could help me understand jiggyfly?

Are you basically saying, you either keep the ten commandments or the new covenant?
The verse you posted talks about circumcision and that you cannot get right with God by keeping the law. The only way to be right with God is through Jesus, I understand that. But don't we keep both covenants when keeping right with Jesus?

Teraside here is another thread that may be some help. If you still have some questions please don't hesitate to ask. http://www.talkjesus.com/showthread.php?t=5293

God bless

 

[Eve]

Hi all,

I agree with Chad et al.

As I understand it, we clarify what God's Laws are, what his words were and what he wants of us through the New Testament first.

'Jesus Teaches about Inner Purity.....Jesus replied, "You hypocrites! Isaiah was prophesying about you when he said, `These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far away. Their worship is a farce, for they replace God's commands with their own man-made teachings.' For you ignore God's specific laws and substitute your own traditions." ('Mark 7:6)

Is it not what is in your heart as you make the 'graven image', ie what you intend to do with that image (worship it or simply use it as decoration) that is important? It is the intent behind the action that is important, not the action alone. Our thoughts/beliefs are as important as our actions.

'....And then he added, "It is the thought-life that defiles you. For from within, out of a person's heart, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, wickedness, deceit, eagerness for lustful pleasure, envy, slander, pride, and foolishness. All these vile things come from within; they are what defile you and make you unacceptable to God." '(Mark 7:20)

God Bless

Eve

 

[christserf]

jiggyfly:

From your statement here it sounds as if you try to keep the old covenant still. But Jesus bought and brought a better covenant but you can not partake in both.

If the entire Mosaic Law was abolished when Jesus instituted the new covenant then what I've presented about the Second Commandment would be irrelevant. My stand on this point is that in Matthew 5, starting with v. 17, Jesus declared that the Mosaic Laws would be in effect unless and until Jesus overturned specific laws. If you do not hold to this interpretation, we need to discuss that. That is a completely different subject and I would be happy to discuss it in a different thread.
If anyone holds to my interpretation of Mt. 5:17-18 we can continue discussing the Second Commandment. If not then we need to discuss Mt. 5:17-18, and if anyone wants to start a thread on that I'll join.
Greetings, Chad:

GOD does not care if you make a statue for the sake of decoration purposes for example, in your front yard (landscape). He does NOT want you to *worship* these "fake gods". This is clearly evident ALL over the entire Bible. I do not know how much more clearer it can possibly get.

We both agree that it is evident that Yahweh doesn't want us worshipping idols. You also say that it is clearly evident that Yahweh doesn't care if we make images for decoration. Very well then, what is that evidence? You want to know how this can be clearer? It would be clearer if it said "Thou mayest make an image, so long as you don't worship it", or something like that. Show me that in the Bible and I'll believe it.

You even quoted the verse that clarified this commandment
Exd 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:

You are presuming that this verse is a "clarification" of the previous verse. On what basis is verse 5 a "clarification", and not an independant clause?

It is very clear what GOD meant in not making statues - not to worship them.(emphasis mine)

You are denying what the passage literally says and substituting what you think it "means". As long as you have evidence to show that your interpretation must be the correct one, I have no problem with that.
Eve:

Is it not what is in your heart as you make the 'graven image', ie what you intend to do with that image (worship it or simply use it as decoration) that is important? It is the intent behind the action that is important, not the action alone. Our thoughts/beliefs are as important as our actions.

Yes, our thoughts are as important as our actions. However, there is a distinct difference in how you have used this and how the Jesus used this. Jesus used this to say 'If you wish to commit this sin it is the same as doing the sin. You used this to say 'We do not have to keep this certain command because it is not important' ("Is it not what is in your heart ... that is important?"). Do you see the difference?
In Yahweh's Love and Truth,
Christ's Serf

 

[4Jesus]

christserf, God is not making two sepreate commands here. God is not saying it is wrong to make a statue or sculpture of people and animals. It is wrong to make a statue and worship it. If making graven images are wrong then what about old photographs? Please be careful about taking scripture out of context.

Greetings in Jesus' name.

I agree. Exodus 20:4 specifically refers to graven images.
See also graven in Psalm 97:7 "Confounded be all they that serve graven images, that boast themselves of idols: worship him, all ye gods.

Graven ... (Hebrew pesel ), refers to the household gods of idolaters. "Every nation and city had its own gods. Yet every family had its separate household or tutelary god." (Easton's).

It seems perfectly clear to me the reference in scripture to 'graven' or Hebrew 'pesel' means, as Christians we must not extend the meaning of graven images beyond what is written i.e. graven = "the household gods of idolaters" or the gods of idol worshiping nations.

David

 

[Snowrose]

Hello my dear friends,

As I read through the posts I wondered about the meaning of the word "graven" and this is what I found. The word "graven" is a past participle to the transitive verb “grave” which means “to fix something firmly in the mind” or “to carve or engrave something”.

This is my thought. What are our "graven images" that people "serve" today? As for carved images I think of the statues of Budda, angels, and past saints (St. Patrick for instance). But of something that is fixed firmly in the mind, can be anything whether it be alive or lifeless that can take that place.

To me a graven image can be anything that sits upon the throne of your heart other than Jesus. It can be a computer, television, philosophies of the world, our children and even our own selfish desires. Whatever it is, we need to renew our minds. Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will. - Romans 12:2

God bless you all.

Love,
Snowrose

 

[4Jesus]

Quote "To me a graven image can be anything that sits upon the throne of your heart other than Jesus. It can be a computer, television, philosophies of the world, our children and even our own selfish desires. "Unquote

Quote "the household gods of idolaters" Unquote.

Hmmmm!

 

[jiggyfly]

Hello my dear friends,

As I read through the posts I wondered about the meaning of the word "graven" and this is what I found. The word "graven" is a past participle to the transitive verb “grave” which means “to fix something firmly in the mind” or “to carve or engrave something”.

This is my thought. What are our "graven images" that people "serve" today? As for carved images I think of the statues of Budda, angels, and past saints (St. Patrick for instance). But of something that is fixed firmly in the mind, can be anything whether it be alive or lifeless that can take that place.

To me a graven image can be anything that sits upon the throne of your heart other than Jesus. It can be a computer, television, philosophies of the world, our children and even our own selfish desires. Whatever it is, we need to renew our minds. Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will. - Romans 12:2

God bless you all.

Love,
Snowrose

Amen Snowrose, Jesus said we can not serve two masters, but many today are deceived into believing that they can. The truth is that if anything requires the majority of our attention, affection, and or time it infringes on our relationship with Jesus and that means that He is not our Lord, period.

 

[Chad]

Christserf I find it ridiculous that you think GOD would disapprove of decorative statues. The verses you quoted show absolutely nothing against it but strictly against WORSHIPPING idols (graven images). If the entire Bible repeating this over and over is not enough, nothing else is enough for you then. You take it literally instead of what it really is. You think that GOD would throw you in hell if you decorate your house with decorative statues? Please answer that simple question.

You also say that it is clearly evident that Yahweh doesn't care if we make images for decoration. Very well then, what is that evidence?

The evidence is the Scripture you quoted which *clearly* refers to graven images. Think about this for a moment and think about this: what on earth would decorative statues do to a man's relationship with GOD? Nothing. What would statues that a man *worships* do to a man's relationship with GOD? There's the answer. Idolatory, which the Scripture refers to. Not Martha Stewart collections in your backyard.

If you want to believe that you may not have statues for decorative purposes, good for you but please don't preach false things on this forum.

 

[Fellowservant]

Legalism can cause people to make up sins and preach them, i call this personal convictions. But this can get out of hand, if you think something is unclean then it will be unclean to you... But dont go judgeing others for thier freedom in Christ with nonsence. Let no one judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moons or of the sabbath and so on. As far as a computer becoming an idol, it is only one if you worship it. Not if you like it, Christians are allowed to enjoy the fruit of thier labours. But i agree with Snowrose, Paul calls them dumb idols because back then they literally worshiped them. Today yes we might give more time to something like a Job, but that still is not an idol, we have 10 commandments here, so lets not go makeing more. Or we will become legalist, with a weak fried conscience, and begin to preach doctrines of devils. Dont get me wrong, i believe Christ should be our all in all, but sometimes folks preach this nonsence to much. One man is able to eat in an idols temple without sining, and by the way this was a real one, but it was a danger to his weak brothers conscience, if he was compelled to do likewise, so Paul said best not to do it. So when was the last time you had a lunch in a real idols temple. For all the legalist out there, this would be something to think about. As a saint i believe we need to follow our conscience, but dont go frying it.:star:

God bless

 

[Cognitive]

Jesus didnt make an image or statue, neither did he worship one.

So to follow him, I will not purchase or construct any statue, for any reason, be it for decoration or worship.

 

[jiggyfly]

Jesus didnt make an image or statue, neither did he worship one.
So to follow him, I will not purchase or construct any statue, for any reason, be it for decoration or worship.

Very true, neither did He wear pants, marry, celebrate christmas and easter, eat pork or keep the sabbath.

Do you put up a christmas tree and decorate it, Cognitive?

 

[Chad]

Wow amen! Fellowservant and Jiggyfly hit the nail on the head (again). I have no problem with those who think its wrong to make statues for decorative purposes, but it is not my belief and I think its nothing short of foolish for one to judge others for having a mule decorate your frontyard or such. If I want nice reindeers around Christmas time or little rabbits, squirrels and other fine creatures decorating my backyard, they will be there. Does this make me a sinner? Good Lord no. I'm already a sinner in need of grace without them anyway.

This says it all (for me personally)

Romans 14:20-22
Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats. It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble. The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves.