There is a difference.

[Adstar]

Hello all

I felt lead to discuss a important point that needs to be understood by all followers of The Messiah Jesus.

There is a big difference between taking a position against a belief and taking a stance against someone who holds that belief. The difference is the spirit of the one taking the stance.

One who takes a stance against a person does not love that person.

One who takes a stance against a false idea or doctrine that person holds loves that person.

But there is a problem, and that is one of perception. It is sometimes very difficult to tell the difference between the two approaches, both can seem to be harsh or condemning to the individual.

We all tend to personalize our beliefs. The beliefs we hold become so much a part of who we are that when they are challenged it is often easy to think that the one challenging our beliefs is against us. But in the long run we must come to realize that truth is from God and we should not feel hurt when the beliefs we hold are challenged. We should look upon it as a chance to put our beliefs to the test and give us a chance to either make our beliefs stronger and win the challenger over to the truth or an opportunity to be freed from a lie.

If we have the right spirit we should never be angered or offended when someone challenges our faith.

I would like you to read the following verses and contemplate what it means:

Proverbs 27
6 Faithful are the wounds of a friend, But the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.

Hebrews 12
6 For whom the LORD loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives." 7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. 12 Therefore strengthen the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees, 13 and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be dislocated, but rather be healed. 14 Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: 15 looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled;


Ephesians 6
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God;
Hebrews 4
12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart



Now with these thoughts in mind read the following scripture be still and let the Spirit lead you.

Timothy 1
4 he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions, 5 useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself. 6 Now godliness with contentment is great gain. 7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. 8 And having food and clothing, with these we shall be content. 9 But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition. 10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. 11 But you, O man of God, flee these things and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, gentleness.

May the Spirit convict

All Praise The Ancient of Days

 

[buzzboodro]

That's good stuff there but don't be too hopeful that many will have the eyes and ears to hear it . God's kids are much my my own when they start getting corrected
they start whining "you don't love me anymore".

 

[Mike]

Do you need prayer BUZZ ? You sound angry about something . Are you upset? You are so right about what you said in you're response . Not everyone on talkjesus is mature enough in the LORD to handle rebuke all the time . Thats why JESUS said that LOVE and FORGIVENESS and MERCY are the most important gifts to live by . You can't make a clay vessel with a hammer ! It takes a gentle consistent grip to shape it . If you squeeze too hard , it will crumble and fall apart . GBU... BROTHER

 

[Adstar]

Many people believe that they have built their house on good foundations. But when you point out to them that they have built their house on sand they resist. There are two reasons. Many have invested a lot in their house and to abandon it means giving up a lot. The second reason is they fear not having a house and the not knowing where to build a new one. It’s the fear of making the jump into the unknown. The watchman who go out and tell people they are living in houses that are going to collapse often do not tell the people where to go and where to build.

Its like a teacher who teaches by telling people what not to do. But falls down in teaching them what to do.

It is better to first tell them where the rock is and how to build a great house on it, then point out to them the true state of the house they are in. If the fear of the unknown can be removed the leap of faith to the rock while still difficult is a lot less fearful.

Its better to be a teacher who teaches people what to do. Without neglecting the other part, letting them know what they are doing wrong.

Some watchman are trapped in the, don't do mold, Some in the do do mold. some put the don't do before the do do. While some teach the do do before the don't do.

If we can find the right balance and do things in the right sequence we can make things a lot easier for those we teach.

All Praise The Ancient of Days

 

[Mike]

That was a great point brother Adstar . That balance is very important , and hard to find . Only the HOLY SPIRIT can truly help us see the balance . I have a question for you . Who did JESUS concern himself with more . The unrighteous , or the self righteous ? And how did he handle both ? I do respect you're opinion on this , because I can tell you are truly a man of GOD who takes his relationship with the LORD seriously . Each member has a part in the whole body of CHRIST , and although , to me you're part seems to lean more towards the law , than grace , both parts are needed to find the balance you are talking about . Weather you teach grace , or law , you do it in love , and not condemnation . For this is the way JESUS also taught . Thank you brother for being thoughtful in all you're post . BROTHER

 

[buzzboodro]

I'm not an excuse man when you build something from clay it has to go into the fire to be hardened or it just falls apart. When you build somethings get broken those things that are too broken are set aside for later repair or discarded as unusable . The wise master builder sets some to the task of repairs while his most skilled workers continue
building. If all the building materials are defective the builder will use another source but the work will be finished. To obtain any "goal" you must be "focused" anything that breaks that focus slows progress.
This may seem callous to some but the hand can not be the foot each part of the "body" has a purpose if someone needs healing go to a healer , instruction a teacher , love and understanding a pastor no one "member" can be all things to all people. Our main source should always be God there comes a time you have to cut people loose to get them to turn to whom they should have in the first place. This is never easy but always needed.
I can't speak for anyone else but as for me i'm ready to take it to the "next level".

 

[Adstar]

Thanks for you reply

Only the HOLY SPIRIT can truly help us see the balance .

Yes He is the Helper that leads us to all understanding. Most times He will deal with us directly. But sometimes he speaks to us through others. That’s why fellowship is so important.

I have a question for you . Who did JESUS concern himself with more . The unrighteous , or the self righteous ? And how did he handle both ?

Jesus said he came as a doctor to heal the sick not to heal the healthy. But the message of The Word is we are all sick we all need a doctor. Jesus concerned himself with both those who thought of themselves as righteous (like the pharisee in the parable of the pharisee and the tax collector) and with those who where open sinners. Jesus had different ways of dealing with people but the difference seems to be related to the pride or meekness of the people he was dealing with. They where all sinners of course. But once Jesus words convicted then the proud reacted with pride and the meek reacted with repentance. He handled the pride with judgement but with the meek he reacted with mercy. Of course Being The Word Made Flesh He knew there hearts and was justified in forgiving sin or condemn. We have no right to condemn because we are not God. But we must reveal the Word as messengers when we feel compelled in our conscience to do so. If someone feels condemned by the Word it is the Word that is convicting it is not we who are condemning.

Each member has a part in the whole body of CHRIST , and although , to me you're part seems to lean more towards the law , than grace , both parts are needed to find the balance you are talking about .

We are saved by grace but being saved by grace does not make the law wrong. It is still wrong to steal, murder or commit adultery. What was evil then is still evil now. No one should use grace as a license to sin. Maybe you see me as leaning towards the law because i have reacted against posts that seem to be dismissing the law. But i know that no one is justified by the law we are saved by belief in Jesus who has provided us with the wonderful gift of grace. So that no one will be able to boast that they have earned salvation. Maybe if there was a lot more "salvation by adherence to the law" posts you might see me as someone who leans more toward grace?

Paul preached salvation by grace but he also said this:

Romans 7
14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good.

The law is good and Paul agreed with it. He was righteous in Spirit even though he was a sinner. Being in agreement with God is important. We are not saved by successfully doing the law but we must agree with it and do our best to follow it. Always knowing that our level of success in doing the law has no bearing on our salvation. what saves us is our acceptance of Jesus as our Savor as Messiah as Redeemer.

This is a hard point to get across to people. I find that many people start to doubt there salvation because they feel unworthy and deem themselves to have fallen short in there adherence to the Law. They do not understand that no one is worthy of salvation and we all fall short of the Law. That’s why we need a Savor and that is why grace is a gift from God. No one can earn it.

One should love the Law and agree with it because of the love of God who gave it for our good, But no one should think that they will be saved or otherwise depending on there ability to adhere to the Law no one is righteous in the flesh, in this life. But we can have the right Spirit. :thumbs_up

John 6:63
"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

All praise The Ancient of Days

 

[Mike]

Thank you both .... Buzz and Adstar for you're insight to my questions . I respect you both for you're wisdom , and commitment to GODS call on you're live's . I believe that this is the true fellowship that JESUS was talking about .I feel edified , challenged , and agreement , all spoken with deep conviction towards the LORD on both you're parts , and with a true spirit of love towards me . May GOD continue to bless , and use you both in SPIRIT and TRUTH here at talkjesus ! :thumbs_up You're brother in CHRIST
Pastor Michael P. Sawyer ... BROTHERS IN ARMS MINISTRIES