Welcome!

By registering with us, you'll be able to discuss, share and private message with other members of our community.

SignUp Now!
  • Welcome to Talk Jesus Christian Forums

    Celebrating 20 Years!

    A bible based, Jesus Christ centered community.

    Register Log In

Thomas

Status
Not open for further replies.

Vincent

Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2016
Messages
161
My question is Did God love Thomas more than an atheist like me?

Thomas said that he would not believe unless he can see and touch the evidences of Jesus death and resurrection. And Jesus never scorned him for this. It seems that direct evidence for belief is okay with God.

Why was direct evidence given to him but no one else?
 
Greetings Vincent,

a couple of things for you to chew over:

In the account of Thomas, Jesus also said, Blessed are they that have not seen, yet believe. No matter what you or me or anyone thinks, there have been millions, if not more, of people who have believed without seeing as Thomas did. You know that. I know that. It is a fact. Science has zero to do with this.

What is the ‘seeing’ referred to here, do you think?

Some years ago I heard of a man who spent his years helping people in ‘developing countries’ to see. They had severe eye problems and many saw very little but darkness. This man got to and went to villages and did an operation on the eyes of those who needed it and guess what? They could see clearly!

You could have told them, until your voice ran out of oomph, all about clear sight but they would have no idea what you meant. It was only after they had their ‘eyes opened’ after receiving an operation [for free] that they would see for themselves for the first time.
[It was the wonderful joy they expressed that drove this man to do what he did. He is dead now but a foundation has been set up to continue the work he started.]

You may have read about faith being the means by which people see? Unless their eyes are opened, they would never see, by faith.

Would you like your eyes opened Vincent?

As you probably know, the world of music and song has many lyrics that talk about seeing and that sight is not the eye sight that we have been blessed with but an opening of awareness by which we are persuaded to realise something.
You understand.

Do you see what I mean?

Have you ever said something like this, “I see I have no choice in the matter” or “I see that you don’t understand” or “I see that I was wrong”. Most people say things like that more often than they realise. What evidence do we base that on? As you can probably grasp, we are magnificent things. Our minds, coupled up to senses and filled with experiences can tally up information and deduct all manner of things. Are we always correct? If honest, no. However does that disregard the amazing and wonderful ability that people have in deduction? Not at all, as you know.

So, what of things we have not seen, yet we can be, to some degree or another, sure that are?

I venture to say that you would have seen and maybe even yourself at least once in your short life have done, being that of denying something or rebelling against something or even been deceitful about something. Most have if they are honest. [on that note, how do we know if we have? What is at work to provide memory? Or, right from wrong ] So, what happens, say a couple are having a disagreement? The facts are laid out by one and the other, while knowing it is true, decides to NOT go along with it and even deny it or provide a smokescreen effect by shifting the subject matter. They may say in themselves that they are not going to go along with the other, merely so they can win an argument. Court rooms are full of such things and in all honestly, most places where people are, manifest this sort of reaction to truth by most people to one degree or another.

Many individuals also can and do this on their own. They choose against what they know best to be right and do the opposite. Internal ‘struggles’ and emotional blackmailing of ourselves by the deception of our hearts and or minds. I know I should... but listen to the multitude of excuses.

Some get to lying in order to cover themselves [in deception] and then sadly they get lying so much that they even start to believe their own lies.

This is all about seeing and not seeing. The question is, however, what is it that people do or don’t see? Usually it is referring to their understanding and as we know, we can be wise about our understanding or fools.
I can tell you now that I have been very foolish, often. Have you?
Can we harden our hearts to something because we don’t want to acknowledge it, because it doesn’t align up to what we want as an outcome? I think so.

Getting back to Thomas. Jesus said, Blessed are they who believe yet have not seen.

I want you to think about this: You believe what scientists say but I am as definite as I can be, that you have not seen. If you were a scientist, such as the ones [although often not actual scientist, but more generically we speak of them] you might ever consider listening to - even though you don't actually hear them speak] it would be evident. I know this even though I have never met you nor the many scientists you or others might refer to. In other words, although I can not see them or you, I am persuaded and even convinced that you are not a scientist… but, even if you were, you would only be a scientist in one specific area or field or expertise. No scientist covers it all, but collectively they believe what other scientists tell them and report, even though, they themselves have not seen the slightest bit of evidence, In Christianity this is something of what is called ‘faith’.

Staying with ‘Thomas’, and what Jesus said regarding those who believe who have not seen, you and all others have before you millions upon millions of men who profess Christ from what they have seen by faith. The number of professing Christians throughout history far outweighs the amount of scientists that ever existed. Take from that small amount [comparitively] the many scientists who are Christians and the number dwindles even to less. If you want, you could also take all the Jewish scientists off the list, as they would, upon question of their nationality and ‘skin’, tell you they are descedants of Abraham, whether you or I or anyone else on the planet, now, before now or afterwards, think or believe regarding Abraham, yet none of them ever met him.

So, given that the same math goes with believing scientists reports, one would have to reasonably come to the conclusion that the facts are enough to admit.

You may have heard of ostriches? Apparently they stick their heads in the sand? I can’t vouch for that but most people understand that if someone is being like an ostrich, they are figuratively [not at all factually or literaly] sticking their heads in the sand, which means thay are choosing to not know something. Same sort of thing with falmingoes. If you are behaving like a flamingo, it means you are not putting your foot down. So, if you place your actual foot down, does that solve the problem or is it about determining and doing. I am and have been like a flamingo , often. How about you?

A school teacher once called me out of the room and tald me i had to pull my socks up. So I did. He was not impressed. Why? Because he meant figuratively that i need to do better and stop being slack about my ... everything, really. [i was not the best pupil or for that matter person and was into all sorts of things that most caring folk would prefer their sons and other's sons to not do - and the teacher knew this.]


If I may also say a little about atheists. Looking at the meaning, we see that it comes from somewhere. Have a look:

1570s, "godless person, one who denies the existence of a supreme, intelligent being to whom moral obligation is due," from French athéiste (16c.), from Greek atheos "without god, denying the gods; abandoned of the gods; godless, ungodly," from a- "without" + theos "a god"
In other words, an anti or against god/God person.... and certainly one without God rather than, within.
I am a thiest but not an atheist. There is a gap there, a distance between believing and not. You can’t mix the two.

Such is faith.

It is quite natural that we like to check and find out for sure. If you were told you have won a lottery that someone else bought for you, would you automatically believe it or would have to check it out for yourself and even if you did, it would not be until the money was in your hands or bank account that you would finally fully believe. Fair enough. But, having discovered it to be true, would you be a slightly bit odd or foolish to then never make use of it ? [unless of course you already had oodles and didn’t need the winnings.] I think so, don’t you?
Even if you have plenty it would be a sad thing if you sat on it and didn’t use it to help others. Surely? Can you see what I mean?

What riches do you want to see, before you will call them your own? Will you turn to the small amount of scientists and blindly trust everything they tell you and hope in anything they tell you?
Or, can you enter into a different place beyond your present position and consider Him Who is the fullness of the riches that your soul desires.

Why would you even care about the existence of god/God or not? Why would you even care so much or be bothered so much to even write so much, which means that you have also thought so much, about any evidence or lack of it, if your soul did not prompt you?

I have met a few people in my time. Some have not cared at all in comparison to you. They really don’t give hoot. It doesn’t bother them the slightest if or if not and they give little to no thought about it all. {at least outwardly]
But you, you have a seed that wants water, a seed that wants to germinate, a desire you don’t understand fully. There is something in all this that you see but you demand more evidence {kindly of course] and why not, too.

Faith comes by hearing…… let him who has ears hear. Let them who have eyes see.

He came to open the eyes of the blind and open the ears of the deaf.


One last thought, is a blind or deaf person at fault if they are that way?

That depends upon if they deliberately choose not to see or close their ears to the truth of a matter.

Science tells us about matter and even grey matter. Use yours a bit more and choose this day if you want to listen to those who are against god/God or those who are for and with Him. Perhaps even desire to listen to and see all that God would have you know about Him. Seek and you shall find. It's really eye opening to know Him and the power of His love/


Bless you ….><>
 
That’s quite a response! Glory to God!

But brother @Vincent whether you like or not God loves you and all of us.
If not He would ask the sun to rise ONLY to those who Acknowledge Him and believe on HIM.

With that love that is more deeper than the ocean, He will do anything, anything just to bring back that one sheep that which was lost and He love most.

By the way i dont think your an atheist :)
 
Greetings Vincent,

a couple of things for you to chew over:

In the account of Thomas, Jesus also said, Blessed are they that have not seen, yet believe. No matter what you or me or anyone thinks, there have been millions, if not more, of people who have believed without seeing as Thomas did. You know that. I know that. It is a fact. Science has zero to do with this.
This does not provide credible evidence that it is true. Billions have believed in Allah as well, does that make the Islamic story true?

What is the ‘seeing’ referred to here, do you think?

Some years ago I heard of a man who spent his years helping people in ‘developing countries’ to see. They had severe eye problems and many saw very little but darkness. This man got to and went to villages and did an operation on the eyes of those who needed it and guess what? They could see clearly!

You could have told them, until your voice ran out of oomph, all about clear sight but they would have no idea what you meant. It was only after they had their ‘eyes opened’ after receiving an operation [for free] that they would see for themselves for the first time.
[It was the wonderful joy they expressed that drove this man to do what he did. He is dead now but a foundation has been set up to continue the work he started.]

You may have read about faith being the means by which people see? Unless their eyes are opened, they would never see, by faith.

Would you like your eyes opened Vincent?

As you probably know, the world of music and song has many lyrics that talk about seeing and that sight is not the eye sight that we have been blessed with but an opening of awareness by which we are persuaded to realise something.
You understand.

Do you see what I mean?

Have you ever said something like this, “I see I have no choice in the matter” or “I see that you don’t understand” or “I see that I was wrong”. Most people say things like that more often than they realise. What evidence do we base that on? As you can probably grasp, we are magnificent things. Our minds, coupled up to senses and filled with experiences can tally up information and deduct all manner of things. Are we always correct? If honest, no. However does that disregard the amazing and wonderful ability that people have in deduction? Not at all, as you know.

So, what of things we have not seen, yet we can be, to some degree or another, sure that are?

I venture to say that you would have seen and maybe even yourself at least once in your short life have done, being that of denying something or rebelling against something or even been deceitful about something. Most have if they are honest. [on that note, how do we know if we have? What is at work to provide memory? Or, right from wrong ] So, what happens, say a couple are having a disagreement? The facts are laid out by one and the other, while knowing it is true, decides to NOT go along with it and even deny it or provide a smokescreen effect by shifting the subject matter. They may say in themselves that they are not going to go along with the other, merely so they can win an argument. Court rooms are full of such things and in all honestly, most places where people are, manifest this sort of reaction to truth by most people to one degree or another.

Many individuals also can and do this on their own. They choose against what they know best to be right and do the opposite. Internal ‘struggles’ and emotional blackmailing of ourselves by the deception of our hearts and or minds. I know I should... but listen to the multitude of excuses.

Some get to lying in order to cover themselves [in deception] and then sadly they get lying so much that they even start to believe their own lies.
It seems to ma a lot of Christians use a lot of things to explain anthers unbelief. In the process they tell us what we think instead of actually listening to us. I know why Christians do this, it is because their book tells them so. The problem is that atheists like myself know we have a lack of belief and know that what they are saying is untrue. Maybe instead of trying to give reasons for our unbelief that are contrary to what the unbeliever is saying, listen and understand. When a Christian insists that I actually believe the ocnversation usually goes south. Then there is Quantrill where he repeatedly calls me a liar and coward and am not worth loving simply because I disagree with his belief.

I want you to think about this: You believe what scientists say but I am as definite as I can be, that you have not seen. If you were a scientist, such as the ones [although often not actual scientist, but more generically we speak of them] you might ever consider listening to - even though you don't actually hear them speak] it would be evident. I know this even though I have never met you nor the many scientists you or others might refer to. In other words, although I can not see them or you, I am persuaded and even convinced that you are not a scientist… but, even if you were, you would only be a scientist in one specific area or field or expertise. No scientist covers it all, but collectively they believe what other scientists tell them and report, even though, they themselves have not seen the slightest bit of evidence, In Christianity this is something of what is called ‘faith’.
I disagree. I have mountains of evidence that science works and is self correcting. What I have experienced and used the principles that science has discovered they are reliable. Science is a process to justifiable true belief. I don;t just believe whatever a scientist says is true, I believe because the process has shown to be reliable. When scientists are wrong it is other scientists that correct the error because of peer review and repeatably. No one can be 100% certain of anything but through science we can be as close to sure as we can get. That is not faith. Religious faith is believing without sufficient evidence to warrant a justified true belief. It us not testable or falsifiable. Science is falsifiable, that is what makes it the best pathway we have to discover truth. How can we falsify any Christian claim of the resurrection?

You may have heard of ostriches? Apparently they stick their heads in the sand? I can’t vouch for that but most people understand that if someone is being like an ostrich, they are figuratively [not at all factually or literaly] sticking their heads in the sand, which means thay are choosing to not know something. Same sort of thing with falmingoes. If you are behaving like a flamingo, it means you are not putting your foot down. So, if you place your actual foot down, does that solve the problem or is it about determining and doing. I am and have been like a flamingo , often. How about you?
No one can choose what to believe. We are either convinced or we are not by good or bad reasons. Can you choose to believe Allah is the true god? or that the moon is made from cheese?

If I may also say a little about atheists. Looking at the meaning, we see that it comes from somewhere. Have a look:

1570s, "godless person, one who denies the existence of a supreme, intelligent being to whom moral obligation is due," from French athéiste (16c.), from Greek atheos "without god, denying the gods; abandoned of the gods; godless, ungodly," from a- "without" + theos "a god"
In other words, an anti or against god/God person.... and certainly one without God rather than, within.
I am a thiest but not an atheist. There is a gap there, a distance between believing and not. You can’t mix the two.
A modern definition of atheist is a person who lacks faith in a god or claims god does not exist. I define myself as an atheist because I have a lack of belief. I make no claims as to whether a god exists, only that I don't believe he does, he could but there is insufficient evidence to believe.

What riches do you want to see, before you will call them your own? Will you turn to the small amount of scientists and blindly trust everything they tell you and hope in anything they tell you?
Or, can you enter into a different place beyond your present position and consider Him Who is the fullness of the riches that your soul desires.
I explained above that I don't blindly believe scientists. Even if I did why is blindly following your god better?

Why would you even care about the existence of god/God or not? Why would you even care so much or be bothered so much to even write so much, which means that you have also thought so much, about any evidence or lack of it, if your soul did not prompt you?
No, living in a society where most people have religious beliefs affect me in negative ways. Having a mass populace that believe things without sufficient evidence is a bad thing in my opinion. I have friends that told their family that they were an unbeliever and they disowned them. That hurts and is real all because of a religious faith. Homosexuals are vilified and denied rights because of religious belief and slavery was condoned because of faith in god. Quantrill once told me that he would be okay with slavery (people owning another person as property) if god condoned it. This is why I want to discuss these things with people of faith.

I have met a few people in my time. Some have not cared at all in comparison to you. They really don’t give hoot. It doesn’t bother them the slightest if or if not and they give little to no thought about it all. {at least outwardly]
But you, you have a seed that wants water, a seed that wants to germinate, a desire you don’t understand fully. There is something in all this that you see but you demand more evidence {kindly of course] and why not, too.
Again another Christian telling me what I think. This is common and can't you see that is is unproductive? What if I just said you just believe to make you feel better. How would that make you feel?

Faith comes by hearing…… let him who has ears hear. Let them who have eyes see.
Not for Thomas. So back to my question, why can Jesus give Thomas direct evidence but not me?

That depends upon if they deliberately choose not to see or close their ears to the truth of a matter.
Like I said before we cannot choose our beliefs.

Science tells us about matter and even grey matter. Use yours a bit more and choose this day if you want to listen to those who are against god/God or those who are for and with Him. Perhaps even desire to listen to and see all that God would have you know about Him. Seek and you shall find. It's really eye opening to know Him and the power of His love/
You should do the same to atheists.
 
That’s quite a response! Glory to God!

But brother @Vincent whether you like or not God loves you and all of us.
If not He would ask the sun to rise ONLY to those who Acknowledge Him and believe on HIM.

With that love that is more deeper than the ocean, He will do anything, anything just to bring back that one sheep that which was lost and He love most.
If this is true then why won't he convince me he exists?

By the way i dont think your an atheist :smile:
I know you have good intentions and I don't want to offend you but this is very condescending. I was a Christian that said this as well so I do understand. Atheists hear this all the time and it is simply not true. This is something you cannot know and since I do know I don't believe it just shows me that Christians really don't want to listen to Atheists, they want to tell them what to believe.
 
If this is true then why won't he convince me he exists?

He did bro @Vincent but UNLESS we decide to open our eyes we cannot see, that is what we call grace bro for God give us this freewill to decide. He didn’t control us but He give us all the evidence that He exist.

There will be a lot of reasons for us to stumble on our faith if we CHOOSE to BASED it on to those people around us even If they are christians. Cause (we) christians are not perfect ( like thomas even if he was with Jesus the whole time of his ministry )

Believing on Him is personal decision bro, because salvation is personal too. It is between us and God alone.

If we decide to believe on God, i believe
( one day- in Judegement time ) we will have no regrets.

But if we still decide not to believe that God exist, i think it will not be loss from God but from us.
 
My question is Did God love Thomas more than an atheist like me?

Thomas said that he would not believe unless he can see and touch the evidences of Jesus death and resurrection. And Jesus never scorned him for this. It seems that direct evidence for belief is okay with God.

Why was direct evidence given to him but no one else?

Thomas was not an atheist. Thomas was a believer in God and believed Jesus Christ was the Messiah as all the other disciples believed.

So, don't put yourself in the same shoes as Thomas. Thomas came into doubt just like Peter came into a lack of courage in following Jesus Christ. That doesn't make them atheist's like you.

God will, and Jesus Christ will go out of His way to prove to His people. He won't go out of His way to prove to atheist's like yourself. The believer has plenty of proofs. But such proofs matter not to the atheist.

Quantrill
 
He did bro @Vincent but UNLESS we decide to open our eyes we cannot see, that is what we call grace bro for God give us this freewill to decide. He didn’t control us but He give us all the evidence that He exist.
My question was why did he give Thomas direct evidence to convince him but won't for me. You are wrong when you say he has because if he has I would have no choice but to believe.

There will be a lot of reasons for us to stumble on our faith if we CHOOSE to BASED it on to those people around us even If they are christians. Cause (we) christians are not perfect ( like thomas even if he was with Jesus the whole time of his ministry )

Believing on Him is personal decision bro, because salvation is personal too. It is between us and God alone.

If we decide to believe on God, i believe
( one day- in Judegement time ) we will have no regrets.

But if we still decide not to believe that God exist, i think it will not be loss from God but from us.
Again, we cannot choose to believe anything we are not convinced of. This is basic epistemology. Can you truly believe that the moon is made of cheese?
 
Thomas was not an atheist. Thomas was a believer in God and believed Jesus Christ was the Messiah as all the other disciples believed.

So, don't put yourself in the same shoes as Thomas. Thomas came into doubt just like Peter came into a lack of courage in following Jesus Christ. That doesn't make them atheist's like you.

God will, and Jesus Christ will go out of His way to prove to His people. He won't go out of His way to prove to atheist's like yourself. The believer has plenty of proofs. But such proofs matter not to the atheist.
That is not what the bible says:

24 Now Thomas (also known as Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.” 26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.” 28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” Jn 20:24-29.

Thomas said he would not believe that Jesus was resurrected without the proof he requires. Can you be a christian without believing in the resurrection? Thomas clearly did not believe Jesus rose from the dead just as I don't. God wants all to come to saving faith right? 1 Tim 2:4.
 
That is not what the bible says:

24 Now Thomas (also known as Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.” 26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.” 28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” Jn 20:24-29.

Thomas said he would not believe that Jesus was resurrected without the proof he requires. Can you be a christian without believing in the resurrection? Thomas clearly did not believe Jesus rose from the dead just as I don't. God wants all to come to saving faith right? 1 Tim 2:4.

Thomas was not an atheist as you are...atheist. Thomas was a believer in God and believed rightly so that Jesus Christ was the Messiah. He had doubts when the Messiah was killed as he did not understand the necessity of the Messiah's death. That in no way places you on his level.

Jesus Christ clearly did all He could to make sure one of His believes. Just as He still does. You however not only deny His resurrection, you deny that He is the Son of God and Saviour. You deny the very existence of God and yet you want to compare yourself with Thomas. What a liar you are. How silly.

God has provide for 'all men' to be saved. That doesn't mean all men will be saved. That doesn't mean you come to God on your terms. You come on His, else you do not come.

Quantrill
 
@Vincent
Greetings Vincent,

You do not believe what is written in Scripture.
Nothing any of us write here will be better that that which you refuse and deny.

May i suggest that you find a Christian to talk to so about your problem.

Praying that God in His Mercy and Grace will speak to you and that you will hear.


Bless you
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top