Tongues

[Grace]

Before I start this thread I want to make it clear that I was not brought up charismatic. Most of my christian walk I was against the gifts of the spirit (because of the way I was raised). To make a long story short...after many hours searching and praying about this subject. I have allowed His Word to be my greatest evidence of truth. I am not interested in anyones opinion unless it is backed up with scripture.

I also believe that satan has deceived us too long concerning this gift and others.

I see at least three purposes in the Bible for Tongues ( spiritual language). I believe it is used as an intercessory prayer (Romans 8:26-27). I believe it is a sign to the unbellievers (1 Corinthians 14:22) demonstrated on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:4-12). I believe it is one of the gifts of the Spirit that is used in public worship (1 Corinthians 14:26-28). Many get these confused when they take them out of the context that they are written in Scripture.

I have heard about every argument out there against tongues. We need to be careful not to let our denominations to dictate truth. Because I did for years! Many churches reject speaking in tongues because they think it is foolish.

 

[Br. Bear]

I have heard about every argument out there against tongues. We need to be careful not to let our denominations to dictate truth.

Greetings,

May I ask if you meant something different that what you said?

We need to be careful not to let our denominations to dictate truth.

I think most would prefer that truth was dictated rather than lies?

Also, regarding arguments against matters, all too often arguments are in fact completely off track and void of truth on both or all sides of the argument and much discernment must be sought and applied in handling the Word and in attempting to teach it or in trying to convince others of the concepts we currently consider to be on track.
Most do not look beyond the arguments (even if they are friendly arguments called discussions - argument is not bad in the true sense of the word but we presently go along with the modern interpretation of the word and use it to be more something describing some sort of unpleasant conflict with heated sorts of tempers and the taking of sides in opposition to and against each other ultimately dividing and not remaining united, forgetting grace and the fact that we are one body with/of/in one faith, one God and one Lord, Jesus Christ , to Whom be glory forever and ever)
Most never see the actual truth and this may be that they are too busy arguing instead of seeking the Lord.
What do they argue over? Mostly mens doctrines and interpretations and claims.

What does the Bible really say?
Are we willing to look completely stupid, if need be, and accept that the crowd may be wrong ? (both sides of the crowd!)

Bless you ....><>

 

[ph8th]

I think to discount the gifts of the spirit is say God took back what He has given. If not for the gifts of the spirit and the indwelling of Holy Spirit poetry in my life would not exist and relationship with God would be impossible. Jesus would have lied about His coming (Holy Spirit) John14:26. One would only expect He who lives in us to manifest Himself and be visible on our lives Matthew17:20.

My sweet Lord my loving Savior
I need to live this life for You
Present myself a willing vessel
You may live Your life through
Lead this life to be like Jesus
That is all I want to do
Take these hand to do Your work
Lead these feet to follow You
Let these eyes see needs of others
Fill this heart to Love like You

peter

 

[Grace]

Greetings,

May I ask if you meant something different that what you said?

I think most would prefer that truth was dictated rather than lies?

Also, regarding arguments against matters, all too often arguments are in fact completely off track and void of truth on both or all sides of the argument and much discernment must be sought and applied in handling the Word and in attempting to teach it or in trying to convince others of the concepts we currently consider to be on track.
Most do not look beyond the arguments (even if they are friendly arguments called discussions - argument is not bad in the true sense of the word but we presently go along with the modern interpretation of the word and use it to be more something describing some sort of unpleasant conflict with heated sorts of tempers and the taking of sides in opposition to and against each other ultimately dividing and not remaining united, forgetting grace and the fact that we are one body with/of/in one faith, one God and one Lord, Jesus Christ , to Whom be glory forever and ever)
Most never see the actual truth and this may be that they are too busy arguing instead of seeking the Lord.
What do they argue over? Mostly mens doctrines and interpretations and claims.

What does the Bible really say?
Are we willing to look completely stupid, if need be, and accept that the crowd may be wrong ? (both sides of the crowd!)

Bless you ....><>

I posted this because it come up in another thread off topic. I open this thread to to discuss and share what I have learned the last 10 years.
Arguing will get us no where! I have been on both sides of the debate!
In my case I was not taught truth in the denomination that I was brought up in concerning this topic.

 

[ph8th]

Grace I believe that understanding of God comes from God through revelation. I believe it is Holy Spirit who reveals it. Jesus own words was He (Holy Spirit) would lead us to ALL truth. This thread is apt to spark a lot of OPINION but we can't change peoples minds or make them see. Our part is obedience to His prompting, speak truth and let God reveal Himself. The outcome of ones understanding is in God's hands. We are to put on the full armor of God and stand Eph 6.


What do you do

When

God asks for more

When

All you have

Was given

Even the life

You’re liven

It all belongs

To Him

Do you look

To the world

Do you

Try to ignore

Do you

Get on your knees

In prayer

Or prostrate

On the floor

What do you do

When

God asks for more

Everything

About you

Is wrong

Nothing is right

So you

Offer yourself

A living sacrifice

Death to this world

Death to sin

A willing vessel

A dwelling place

For Him

Victory is His

Your fighting

Is through

It’s all about

Him

No longer

About you

Living this life

Is no longer

A great chore

Submission

Is the answer

When

God asks for more
peter

 

[RJ]

Before I start this thread I want to make it clear that I was not brought up charismatic. Most of my christian walk I was against the gifts of the spirit (because of the way I was raised). To make a long story short...after many hours searching and praying about this subject. I have allowed His Word to be my greatest evidence of truth. I am not interested in anyones opinion unless it is backed up with scripture.

I also believe that satan has deceived us too long concerning this gift and others.

I see at least three purposes in the Bible for Tongues ( spiritual language). I believe it is used as an intercessory prayer (Romans 8:26-27). I believe it is a sign to the unbellievers (1 Corinthians 14:22) demonstrated on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:4-12). I believe it is one of the gifts of the Spirit that is used in public worship (1 Corinthians 14:26-28). Many get these confused when they take them out of the context that they are written in Scripture.

I have heard about every argument out there against tongues. We need to be careful not to let our denominations to dictate truth. Because I did for years! Many churches reject speaking in tongues because they think it is foolish.

Here is the truth and it comes from scripture. Yes , it could end up being a deceiving from Satan but not how you think!:

1. It is positively a gift
2. Must edify the church and not the individual.
3. Requires an interpreter or it would be better to prophesy!
4. Must do all that is said in this scripture or don't do it in church.
5. Intelligibility in Worship...1 Corinthians 14
   1 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. 2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue[a] does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit. 3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. 4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues,[b] but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues,[c] unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.
   6 Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? 7 Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the pipe or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? 8 Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? 9 So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. 10 Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. 11 If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker is a foreigner to me. 12 So it is with you. Since you are eager for gifts of the Spirit, try to excel in those that build up the church. 13 For this reason the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15 So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding. 16 Otherwise when you are praising God in the Spirit, how can someone else, who is now put in the position of an inquirer,[d] say “Amen” to your thanksgiving, since they do not know what you are saying? 17 You are giving thanks well enough, but no one else is edified.

 

[B-A-C]

1 Cor 12:4; Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1 Cor 12:5; And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord.
1 Cor 12:6; There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons.
1 Cor 12:7; But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
1 Cor 12:8; For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit;
1 Cor 12:9; to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
1 Cor 12:10; and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.
1 Cor 12:11; But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.

It seems that the gifts (not just tongues) are given to "all persons" by the Holy Spirit "distributing to each one" as He wills.
A lot of focus is on tongues, (maybe it should be) but Paul called tongues the least of the gifts. He also states not everyone has the gift of tongues.

1 Cor 12:30; All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?

1 Cor 14:4; One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church.
1 Cor 14:5; Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying.

Yet in non-charismatic churches, you see non of the gifts at all. No tongues, no prophecy, no miracles, no interpretation, (in many cases not much wisdom).
Pentecostal/Charismatic churches seem to emphasize tongues. Often you do not see the other gifts in them as well, but sometimes you do.
I have been in churches were prophecy and miracles and divine healings have happened. I have been in churches that are all about speaking in tongues (it seems just for the sake of tongues).
Of course I have been in churches that practice none of the above.

If your church does not exhibit the Spiritual gifts, why not? How do you know the Holy Spirit is in your church?
Some will answer, well we have the fruit of the Spirit, perhaps they do but I've never been in a church where 100% of the people showed it 100% of the time.
In fact I've seen very few people here on TJ exhibit it 100% of the time.
Also there are un-saved people who occasionally have joy or peace or love. So I'm not sure that's the best way to tell.

So we are back to... "when do you receive the Holy Spirit"? Many here on TJ would say "when I first believed", but I don't see that in the Bible anywhere.
In every case I could find, people received the Holy Spirit after they were believers for a period of time. (weeks, months, years).
(possible exceptions being John the Baptist and Jesus)

Still some others say there is a difference between having the Holy Spirit and being "baptized" with the Holy Spirit. I would like to see any scripture supporting this.
But even these people say you can not have the gifts of the Spirit without evidence that you have been "baptized" in the Holy Spirit and they also say this is separate
event from "when you first believed".

 

[RJ]

Some will answer, well we have the fruit of the Spirit, perhaps they do but I've never been in a church where 100% of the people showed it 100% of the time.
In fact I've seen very few people here on TJ exhibit it 100% of the time.

That would require perfection, which we are not.
But, with Jesus in us, we can be credited with or imputed perfection!

 

[Grace]

Grace I believe that understanding of God comes from God through revelation. I believe it is Holy Spirit who reveals it. Jesus own words was He (Holy Spirit) would lead us to ALL truth. This thread is apt to spark a lot of OPINION but we can't change peoples minds or make them see. Our part is obedience to His prompting, speak truth and let God reveal Himself. The outcome of ones understanding is in God's hands. We are to put on the full armor of God and stand Eph 6.

I agree and I like your poems!

 

[Grace]

What I gather from scripture is that when Jesus left this earth He left His church here with a commission to go into the entire world. Jesus did not leave us powerless or without the promise of the Holy Spirit. This promise was revealed in Joel 2. This outpouring would reach all people regardless of age, background, race or gender. It would release dreams, visions and wonders. Jesus promises an age that would do greater works because He was going to the Father (John 14:12-14).
The Holy Spirit came on the day of Pentecost and empowered the church. He will remain with the church until it is complete and presented to Jesus at His coming. Jesus completed His work here on earth, so the Holy Spirit will finish the work He came to do in the church.
So why hasn’t the church completed this commission? Could it be that we operate in very little power and too much carnality in the absence of the true operation of the gifts of the Spirit?
Acts 2:39 declares that that the promised Spirit and His gifts are for all the church for all times.
I started this thread about tongues because it is the least accepted of all the other gifts.

I think we(those that have posted) are all in agreement that the gifts are still here but not on the purpose of them (tongues being the threads discussion).

 

[RJ]

I started this thread about tongues because it is the least accepted of all the other gifts.

Yes, and you requested scripture with our response. The reason tongues may be the least accepted is that most charismatics ignore what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 14, which I gave you and you seem to ignore.

 

[Grace]

I would also like to add that I know there is abuse and counterfeits out there. Why would satan counterfeit something unless it is valuable?
The church needs the gifts! 1 Corinthians 2:4-5 Paul tells us that his preaching was demonstated with of the Spirit and of power, our faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

 

[Grace]

Yes, and you requested scripture with our response. The reason tongues may be the least accepted is that most charismatics ignore what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 14, which I gave you and you seem to ignore.

I have not ignored...just have not addressed it yet, I am trying to chose my words and post carefully so that I will not be misunderstood what I believe and why! I plan on addressing every scripture concerning tongues. I am not here to fight with you RJ! I would like to discuss the Word without name calling and false accusations. Just because I have not addressed your thread does not mean I am ignoring it!

 

[RJ]

I am not here to fight with you RJ!

• I never said anything about fighting, you asked for others to express their opinion and back it up with scripture and I did!

I would like to discuss the Word without name calling and false accusations

Yea, me too! ANd that is some mighty strong words for something I haven't done!

 

[Grace]

It is hard to put in words a spiritual truth using intellectual methods...so please be patient with me as I place a foundation of why I started this thread. Most avoid this subject because of misuse and pride. Some people that speak in tongues can come across prideful and holier than thou, I pray that my post do not come across to any one in that manner. I want to discuss this in a peaceful manner.
Paul clearly instructs us on the use of speaking in tongues in the NT Scriptures. Why is this subject important? Because the day of Pentecost the Holy Spirit ushered in a whole new spiritual administration for the believer in Christ.
1 Corinthians 12:1-11 Paul list the nine administrations of the Holy Spirit. Tongues and interpretation being in that list. He mentions the term "divers" (or many different kinds) of tongues. Most pick and chose which expression of tongues they want to believe and leave out what scriptures say about other uses.

Some people want to exaggerate the importance of tongues beyond what Scriptures claim. Some believe that it is a condition for salvation (which I do not). Some believe that it is the lesser gift, but even God's lesser gifts are extremly precious and valualbe to the modern believer!
I believe the gift of the Holy Spirit was given on the Day of Pentecost just as Jesus promised in John 14:1-17.

 

[Grace]

• I never said anything about fighting, you asked for others to express their opinion and back it up with scripture and I did!

Yea, me too! ANd that is some mighty strong words for something I haven't done!

Sorry, it just seemed you were accusing me of ignoring which I was not. I read all post on any thread I start. I give them all careful consideration and I address them when I feel I can without being misunderstood. I try to chose my words carefully...that takes time for me.

 

[RJ]

Paul clearly instructs us on the use of speaking in tongues in the NT Scriptures

Yes and that comes in 1 Corinthians 14, does it not?

 

[Grace]

Yes and that comes in 1 Corinthians 14, does it not?

Yes! Paul was very clear on the use of tongues in a gathering.

 

[RJ]

Yes! Paul was very clear on the use of tongues in a gathering

Basically, that is what I was saying; in private where an interpreter is not required, it can be a wonderful gift! With that in mind, remember that Paul is adamant about when you use a gift, it should be used to edify the church. SO, in private, outside of the "gathering", I think it is the lesser of gifts!

 

[Grace]

Basically, that is what I was saying; in private where an interpreter is not required, it can be a wonderful gift! With that in mind, remember that Paul is adamant about when you use a gift, it should be used to edify the church. SO, in private, outside of the "gathering", I think it is the lesser of gifts!

I agree tongues with interpretation should be done in church to edify!