trying to understand mat 24

[jari]

Hi im trying to understand mat 24 where Jesus talks about tribulation and rapture (and His coming).

I am told that we are to be ready for Lord's coming and that no one knows the day nor hour but in mat 24 Jesus also gives us signs that will come before His coming.
Also He says the tribulation that will preceed His coming is so strong that unless those days were shortened no flesh would be saved.


Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


Mat 24:22-23 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. (23) Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.


After the tribulation there will be signs:

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


Coming of Lord and Rapture:

Mat 24:30-31 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

We know:

Mat 24:32-33 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: (33) So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

We are to watch:

Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.


So how are we to look at this? I recon the tribulation has not started yet.
What are we watching? Why we are given signs before Lord's coming and yet we don't know when He comes?
Are we to watch after the tribulation as we know the end is near?

 

[judge not]

Matt 24

it's a warning for us to be constantly alert, always in a state of Spiritual preparedness

That's the short answer

 

[jari]

Matt 24

it's a warning for us to be constantly alert, always in a state of Spiritual preparedness

That's the short answer

i am not sure if that is the message.

some other things are unclear as well.

God bless

 

[gdemoss]

I have been trying to work these out myself as I believe the tribulation may start any day now. For now I am led to believe that there will be some who avoid the tribulation and others of the church who must go through it. Jesus is speaking to those who are going to go through it and not be spared the testing of all men upon the face of the earth. It seems certain that despite all of the chaos of the judgments people will still be functioning somewhat normal as there will be those sleeping in bed, grinding at the mill and on the rooftop as well as out in the field. We will have to see.

Gary

 

[JosephLove]

Hi Jari! It is late and I have a big math test tomorrow in school, but I happen to know a thing or two about Matthew 24, as I did a big study on it a few months ago.
You may or may not agree with me, though.
I would suggest you read Matthew 24 together with Revelation 6.

Let's look at Matthew chapter 24:

"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many." (Seal #1: The White Horse - Revelation 6:2 )


"And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars" (Seal #2: The Red Horse - Revelation 6:4)


"there shall be famines" (Seal #3: The Black Horse - Revelation 6:5-6)


"and pestilences" (Seal #4: The Pale Horse - Revelation 6:8)


"Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you" (Seal #5: Martyrdom - Revelation 6:9-10)


"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains" (The Jews flee into the wilderness - Revelation 12:6)


"And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

In other words, for the sake of the true Christians, these days will be shortened when Christ's kingdom smashes into earth and replaces all of man's governments.


"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken" (Seal #6: The Heavens are shaken - Revelation 6:12-13)

Because of the time flow between Matthew 24 and Revelation 12, I believe the heavens will be shaken because of a war between Michael and Satan. (Revelation 12:7)


"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory"

After the 6 seals, the seven trumpets start. At the last trump, all current saints still on earth, and all the saints who are sleeping will be changed and/or brought back to life. (1 Corinthians 15:51-52)


"And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."


"Now learn a parable of the fig tree" (Revelation 6 so obviously ties in with Matthew 24, as even the same fig tree is mentioned! - Revelation 6:13)


Jari, I believe Christ is warning us of all the signs before His coming. Watch out for false Christianity (just like the imposter version of Christ who rides the white horse), watch out of wars, watch out for famines and pestilences, martyrdom and the heavens to be shaken!


I believe we are at the second seal right now. We have many imposters for Christ and there are many wars and rumors of wars.
Famine (worldwide starvation crisis) has not taken place yet. But in many countries it has, and if you look at many country's debts they owe, you can see that the Black Horse is on his way!
A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny!!


I hope this was of some help to you?
If not, I still tried! Hahaha

 

[judge not]

The Book of Revelation
There are actually Seven Seals that were opened. Rev 8:1
The Seventh Seal is divided into Seven trumpets that reveal further events and plagues leading up to the return of Jesus Christ.
I believe we have experienced effects of the first 5 Seals since the time of the apostles but will reach its greatest fulfillment and culmination in the last days. We are nearing the 6th Seal after the tribulation.
Persecution for Christians today is worse than when the church was in its early stages and the 5th seal is ongoing and will reach its climax in the very near future based on the escalation factors.

 

[Brother Mike]

Seals.

None of the seals have been opened.

The first seal alone brings many nations to be conquered. That has not happened.

The second seal removes all the peace that was on earth.... Not happened yet.

The third seal brings famine, not to the places that are already hungry, but to those like Europe and places that have food now. It does not fully destroy everything, but sets up the Barter system and mark forcing people to accept the false prophet so they can eat.

The fourth seal destroys 1/4 of the population of this earth, no question this has not been released yet.

fifth seal is the Altar of souls,

sixth seal ........ I think you get it.

Check out these threads:

http://www.talkjesus.com/ethics-morality/38577-difference-between-rapture-second-coming.html

http://www.talkjesus.com/evidence-bible-prophecy/38480-satans-final-defeat.html

http://www.talkjesus.com/bible-study-hall/37981-rapture-2.html

Jesus Is Lord

 

[eddieb]

when the great tribulation happens, it will not be something one can miss.

i believe we are given signs so that those with faith will not lose their faith in those perilous time. the great trib is supposed to be second to none in suffering and wickedness as far as any other time period on earth. and by reading the book of lamentations you can see back then women ate thier babies. so, the great trib will be harsh. epic suffering on the most grandiose scale.
we dont know because Jesus didnt know and he told us all he did know. If we knew we could prepare (maybe) with underground bunkers and food and water. but God wants us to rely on him and not horde stuff up like that fella that stocked his barns full but God told him you fool your soul is required of thee this hour.
as far as watching after i dont know. its all i can do to watch for it to start. and there is plenty to be watching these days.

 

[jari]

difference between rapture and the second coming

the bottom line was for this thread that they are the same...... I dont know how can we look at them as different? Since mathew 24 verses seems to be in chronocial order.
to argue that rapture & second coming must be different just because how we see we should be treated is not good in my opinion. Jesus says in mat 24 we will be hated by all men AND if those days werent shortened no flesh would be saved but for elects sake they are.
Note elect cannot mean jews or anything like that because these instructions were given to us christians.. And Jesus said YOU will be taken to court as witness to them. Luk 21:12
so i think He meant us christians...

 

[JosephLove]

I agree with Jari. According to Matthew, it doesn't seem like there will be a rapture before the tribulation. It seems as if all Christians will face the tribulation.

The only rapture I'm aware that the Bible speaks of is when Christ gathers up the saints.
So the question is, will Christ return one or two more times?

If Christ returns to gather the saints before the tribulation, then he returns again, that means Christ will return twice!

I think Christ will only return once, myself.

 

[eddieb]

the first coming of Chirst already came. the jews looked for the conquoring lion of judah. but instead only a sacraficial lamb was sent.
next will however be the lion.

 

[Brother Mike]

Jari...........

Jari

the bottom line was for this thread that they are the same...... I dont know how can we look at them as different? Since mathew 24 verses seems to be in chronocial order.
to argue that rapture & second coming must be different just because how we see we should be treated is not good in my opinion. Jesus says in mat 24 we will be hated by all men AND if those days werent shortened no flesh would be saved but for elects sake they are.

You and I have already been over this in the past, I just posted those links because they provided information from other posters including myself in hopes to not repeat too much what has been discussed in the Past.

eddieb

the first coming of Chirst already came. the jews looked for the conquoring lion of judah. but instead only a sacraficial lamb was sent.
next will however be the lion.

Never heard it put that way before, not sure how to respond to that.

JosephLove

I think Christ will only return once, myself.

I was a Jesus returns only one timer myself. Matthew 24 after close examination proved to me different. It's really how you break down Matt 24 and what you see.

When I read the Word, every scripture must fit for me, or else I can't be settled on the interpretation. Some are not that way, and allow their Doctrine to fit the missing pieces.

Some of the things I could not fit unless Jesus came for the Church before tribulation started are these.. (Just some of the things)

1) The Tribulation is described as a time this earth has never experienced before. It will truly be horrible. God has always delivered his people, how much more The Church.

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2) If the Church is not taken before the tribulation, We miss the marriage supper. (This has plagued the post trib group for a time now, or explained in very Wonky ways the defies reasoning)

3) During the Tribulation the Antichrist (Son of Perdition) and false prophet gain great power, and dominion. They pull off things that Satan is not doing now, nor can do now.

Jesus said, Upon this Rock I will build my Church, and the Gates of hell shall not prevail. (Matt 16:18) It is also said Jesus gave us authority over serpents and scorpions (Demonic spirits, spirits indicated by the next verse) and all power over the enemy and nothing by any means shall hurt us. (Luke 10:19)

With the Lord's anointed Church here, Satan, His Antichrist, his false Prophet wouldn't stand a chance. Otherwise those scriptures and others must be wrong.

4) Saints:
The Word saint was used through both new Testament and Old, it denotes someone that has favor with God. Christ and the Church, is the final product of what God wanted to create for his people, it is the most important.
The Church also created defining language for it, such as Brethren, In Christ, Christian, Church, Gospel.

The Church is missing, the gospel preached is missing (Except by one angel) the Anointed is missing, the Brethren is missing (Except those described in Heaven already) from anything mentioned during the tribulation. WE ARE NOT THERE!!
The church in REV is last mentioned in chapter 3 then again in Chapter 22

I could fill a couple more pages here of reasons, but just one would be enough for me and say....... "This must fit" before I accept just Jesus coming one time only. If it don't fit everything, then Time to figure out why.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[Peace Seeker]

God has always delivered his people, how much more The Church.

I am curious about this statement, can you give an example of where and when God has done this? The church has always gone through
horrible tribulation, not been delivered out of it physically. So why should that change? Just because we may be the last people to live on this earth before Jesus returns?

The bible constantly tells us that Christians will face persecution. And to surmise (for example) that God allowed His church to be horribly persecuted for over a millennium by the Papal Church of Rome, and millions of Russian Christians to perish under extremely brutal Soviet communism; but we, the mostly lukewarm church of our day and age, get to hide from the enemy in a spiritual foxhole just doesn't make sense to me.

Why would God allow His people of old to give their lives for Jesus, but not allow (or expect) us to do it? There are many Christians dying for their faith as you read this, so why should they die, but we be raptured away?
Are we not required to resist unto blood, striving against sin (Heb 12:4) but others are? Does God think some Christians are more worthy or better than others, that they don't have to be persecuted?

I am not attacking your beliefs or asking these questions in a negative or confrontational manner, I am sincerely wondering why one segment of Christians should be treated differently than the rest.

During the Tribulation the Antichrist (Son of Perdition) and false prophet gain great power, and dominion. They pull off things that Satan is not doing now, nor can do now.

Then how can a great multitude of martyrs come out of this unprecedented horror with a testimony for Christ intact - salvation - without the church body there, and especially with the Holy Spirit's presence having been removed (or greatly diminished)? From the tone of Revelation, the more God's wrath is poured out on the people the more they defy Him and shake their fist at Him. Not the more they come closer to Him. So how do these martyrs do it, seemingly under their own resolve?

Jesus said, Upon this Rock I will build my Church, and the Gates of hell shall not prevail. (Matt 16:18)

I think the gates of hell have not prevailed against the church, and won't, because she resists and overcomes it, not because she hides from it.

With the Lord's anointed Church here, Satan, His Antichrist, his false Prophet wouldn't stand a chance. Otherwise those scriptures and others must be wrong.

I don't know what you mean by "wouldn't stand a chance". In the 20th century alone, many, many 10's of millions of Christians have been persecuted and killed for, or because of, their faith. This, with the church here, with the Holy Spirit here in His fullness!

 

[gdemoss]

If the Church is not taken before the tribulation, We miss the marriage supper.

This has no scriptural support for a timeline. Nowhere does it say that the marriage supper of the lamb happens at this point in time.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. 9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

The text merely states that the marriage supper is come. At the time it is stated, the bride is on and in the earth while the groom is in heaven. One train of thought says that the groom comes to retrieve his bride and returns to heaven where the marriage supper of the lamb takes place over seven years while the earth below is in tribulation. This group places the first resurrection at the beginning of the tribulation period as it says 'the dead in Christ rise first', this must be a resurrection and must be the first. Scripture clearly states that the first resurrection is at the same time as the return of Jesus to earth though. So the other thought is that the marriage supper of the lamb is on the earth after Jesus has returned to retrieve his bride.

God only promised the church of Philadelphia that they would be spared the tribulation. The other 6 would suffer it. He didn't promise to come and get the first either. They may be spared simply by dying in their sleep before it begins, nobody knows.

Gary

 

[Brother Mike]

Matt 24

Peace Seeker

I am not attacking your beliefs or asking these questions in a negative or confrontational manner, I am sincerely wondering why one segment of Christians should be treated differently than the rest.

Attacking belief's is fine, it's almost unavoidable here. However, we can call it questioning in Love if that helps. Nothing here upsets me, and I certainly do not know everything, and certainly do not expect everyone to sing along with me.

The bible constantly tells us that Christians will face persecution. And to surmise (for example) that God allowed His church to be horribly persecuted for over a millennium by the Papal Church of Rome, and millions of Russian Christians to perish under extremely brutal Soviet communism; but we, the mostly lukewarm church of our day and age, get to hide from the enemy in a spiritual foxhole just doesn't make sense to me.

Many afflictions are of the righteous, but the Lord delivers them from the ALL. I meant to say end of Word stuff, sorry about that. God said we escape the Wrath to Come, God's wrath. We have already be judged by the blood of the lamb, so no use keeping us around.

Also, Satan is very alive and active, so nobody is hiding, and Satan does not have to have us in Iraq to kill one of us. He just has to have the place to do so.

Why would God allow His people of old to give their lives for Jesus, but not allow (or expect) us to do it? There are many Christians dying for their faith as you read this, so why should they die, but we be raptured away?

Just because someone dies is no indication of God's Will, He said he does not even take pleasure in the death of the Wicked, how much more us.

2Th 3:2 Paul said God will deliver you from unreasonable and wicked men. He said the Lord is faithful and will keep you from evil.

Luke 10:19 Jesus said nothing by any means shall hurt you.

I could fill this page with scriptures of God promising to protect us.

Heb 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

God will always perform his word and keep it for those that believe. Many don't even have knowledge that they can be safe, or even believe it if you told them. Fear of anything, means more faith in somethings ability to harm you than what God said to protect you.

Are we not required to resist unto blood, striving against sin (Heb 12:4) but others are? Does God think some Christians are more worthy or better than others, that they don't have to be persecuted?

We all should be resisting sin every time it rears it's ugly head. The amount of persecutions will be according to where God would have you be, being in his will, there will be a grace to endure and stay alive to complete the mission.

Then how can a great multitude of martyrs come out of this unprecedented horror with a testimony for Christ intact - salvation - without the church body there, and especially with the Holy Spirit's presence having been removed (or greatly diminished)? From the tone of Revelation, the more God's wrath is poured out on the people the more they defy Him and shake their fist at Him. Not the more they come closer to Him. So how do these martyrs do it, seemingly under their own resolve?

Rev 12 is the only place that mentions the testimony for Christ, and Rev 12 is a vision that took place before Jesus went to the cross.

The testimony from man about Christ ((Jesus the anointed one and his anointing) Christ means anointed of God)), is not mentioned during the tribulation, This does not mean God does not have many that come out of tribulation that are his, it just means the Aspect of the Church is not present.

I think the gates of hell have not prevailed against the church, and won't, because she resists and overcomes it, not because she hides from it.

I don't know what you mean by "wouldn't stand a chance". In the 20th century alone, many, many 10's of millions of Christians have been persecuted and killed for, or because of, their faith. This, with the church here, with the Holy Spirit here in His fullness!

There a many believers here on earth Satan can't lay a finger on, they know who they are, their authority in the name of Jesus, and certainly do not doubt God's protection. If you never have cast out a evil spirit, or laid hands on someone that was healed, or spoken over something in the name of Jesus and have it change, then this might be a hard concept.

God has a very powerful, people full of faith on earth, and Satan would not stand a chance, nor be able to operate. Jesus said I give you power over the enemy. (Luke 10:19) We have to be out of the way.

------------------------------------------------------------
gdemoss

This has no scriptural support for a timeline. Nowhere does it say that the marriage supper of the lamb happens at this point in time.

If your post trib, then you will be having dinner ON EARTH.

http://www.talkjesus.com/bible-glossary/?do=showentry&item=God

God only promised the church of Philadelphia that they would be spared the tribulation. The other 6 would suffer it. He didn't promise to come and get the first either. They may be spared simply by dying in their sleep before it begins, nobody knows.

All Seven Churches are long dead and Gone, being in Asia Minor which is now Modern day Turkey.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[judge not]

None of the seals have been opened.

The first seal alone brings many nations to be conquered. That has not happened.

The second seal removes all the peace that was on earth.... Not happened yet.

The third seal brings famine, not to the places that are already hungry, but to those like Europe and places that have food now. It does not fully destroy everything, but sets up the Barter system and mark forcing people to accept the false prophet so they can eat.

The fourth seal destroys 1/4 of the population of this earth, no question this has not been released yet.

fifth seal is the Altar of souls,

sixth seal ........ I think you get it

Jesus Is Lord

Revelation is a book of prophecy.
Revelation by name means to reveal, to unveil, to open to understanding what otherwise could not be comprehended.
As the Book of Revelation states the seals were opened by Jesus Christ
Rev: Chapters 6-8
Otherwise we would not know about the happenings of the end times heading our way .
John was told not to seal up the sayings of the prophecy of the Book of Revelation. Rev 22:10
If no seals were opened what would he have to seal back up.
Isn't this basic Christianity 101

 

[jari]

Jari


You and I have already been over this in the past, I just posted those links because they provided information from other posters including myself in hopes to not repeat too much what has been discussed in the Past.

eddieb


Never heard it put that way before, not sure how to respond to that.

JosephLove


I was a Jesus returns only one timer myself. Matthew 24 after close examination proved to me different. It's really how you break down Matt 24 and what you see.

When I read the Word, every scripture must fit for me, or else I can't be settled on the interpretation. Some are not that way, and allow their Doctrine to fit the missing pieces.

Some of the things I could not fit unless Jesus came for the Church before tribulation started are these.. (Just some of the things)

1) The Tribulation is described as a time this earth has never experienced before. It will truly be horrible. God has always delivered his people, how much more The Church.

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2) If the Church is not taken before the tribulation, We miss the marriage supper. (This has plagued the post trib group for a time now, or explained in very Wonky ways the defies reasoning)

3) During the Tribulation the Antichrist (Son of Perdition) and false prophet gain great power, and dominion. They pull off things that Satan is not doing now, nor can do now.

Jesus said, Upon this Rock I will build my Church, and the Gates of hell shall not prevail. (Matt 16:18) It is also said Jesus gave us authority over serpents and scorpions (Demonic spirits, spirits indicated by the next verse) and all power over the enemy and nothing by any means shall hurt us. (Luke 10:19)

With the Lord's anointed Church here, Satan, His Antichrist, his false Prophet wouldn't stand a chance. Otherwise those scriptures and others must be wrong.

4) Saints:
The Word saint was used through both new Testament and Old, it denotes someone that has favor with God. Christ and the Church, is the final product of what God wanted to create for his people, it is the most important.
The Church also created defining language for it, such as Brethren, In Christ, Christian, Church, Gospel.

The Church is missing, the gospel preached is missing (Except by one angel) the Anointed is missing, the Brethren is missing (Except those described in Heaven already) from anything mentioned during the tribulation. WE ARE NOT THERE!!
The church in REV is last mentioned in chapter 3 then again in Chapter 22

I could fill a couple more pages here of reasons, but just one would be enough for me and say....... "This must fit" before I accept just Jesus coming one time only. If it don't fit everything, then Time to figure out why.

Jesus Is Lord.

1) Dan 12:1 seems to suport post-trib. Note it says at that time.. not before that time.

2) Miss marridge supper? Jesus made parables of marriage is that what you mean? He actually said then refering to the time past tribulation. The marriage parables are not effective until that time.

3) so ? isnt the world full of evil today? Does that mean church has failed? of course not.

4) thats not what Jesus said, He spoke about us having to witness at tribulation and being taken to court. Rev is as well full of people "having the testimony of Jesus"

 

[Brother Mike]

The seals

Judge Not

If no seals were opened what would he have to seal back up.
Isn't this basic Christianity 101

Not sure how your correlating the seals that started events with John Sealing up the prophecy.

Danial was also told to seal up his prophecy until the time of the end.
We have the seals of the seven thunders.
Seal of God
Seal of the tribes.

Jari:

1) at that time of trouble........read again.
2) Post trib supports on earth, Pre in heaven. Pick one.
3) Where sin abounds, grace abounds more, exactly why we are here.
4) Rev full of the testimony of Jesus? only an angel preached the gospel, not the Church, and testimony of Jesus as I stated can be found in Rev in heaven, or in rev 12.

Your all the blessed.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[jari]

Judge Not


Not sure how your correlating the seals that started events with John Sealing up the prophecy.

Danial was also told to seal up his prophecy until the time of the end.
We have the seals of the seven thunders.
Seal of God
Seal of the tribes.

Jari:

1) at that time of trouble........read again.
2) Post trib supports on earth, Pre in heaven. Pick one.
3) Where sin abounds, grace abounds more, exactly why we are here.
4) Rev full of the testimony of Jesus? only an angel preached the gospel, not the Church, and testimony of Jesus as I stated can be found in Rev in heaven, or in rev 12.

Your all the blessed.

Jesus Is Lord.

mike i think your going by feelings and not staying on what bible says... I just made those point that you couldnt deny ... so. i guess u stick in ur opinion regardless?

12 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

[Brother Mike]

The Dragon and the women.

Jari:

mike i think your going by feelings and not staying on what bible says... I just made those point that you couldnt deny ... so. i guess u stick in ur opinion regardless?

Well, I hope that with a clear Heart and in (MY UNDERSTANDING) that I just don't Deny evidence in the Word, and stick to my own opinion's without being corrected.

It's how we are looking at Rev 12 though. You see it as saints during the Tribulation with the testimony of Jesus, meaning that the Church was there during the tribulation.

I see it as an event that describes something way before the period of Tribulation, placing the body of Christ outside of the tribulation period.

The Word of God does not have to be given in a nice proper order we think it should be given. John was shown many things, and not all of them were in order or even described the tribulation.

John was seeing in the Realm of the Spirit, and what was really happening in that realm. Things can look much different in that realm, than they do here on Earth.

Psa 148:3 Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light.
Gen 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance (Reverence or worship) to me.

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

The sun and moon being not as great, or in worship like Joseph's dream meant something of a honored position, the crown a protective covering with 12 angels. I don't as of yet fully understand the total meaning of these things.

Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

As in Danial, the Dragon has control of many nations. Including the nation where this Child was to be born.

Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

The stars being angels, most likely to help the dragon get this Child.
So we have a dragon, looking to kill this Child.

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

There was only one who sits on God's throne or at his right hand, only one that will rule (ALL) nations. That is Jesus. The women would be Mary.


Luk 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
Luk 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.


Mat 2:12 And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.
Mat 2:13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.

Mary and the Child Fled from Herod seeking to kill Jesus.

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Jesus said.............

Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

When was that though?

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his ChristChrist means anointed one, or full of God's Power) for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

The Kingdom of God came to earth, Jesus came into power by the Anointing.

Mar 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

Luk 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

When was Satan cast down? When the Kingdom of God came and the power of Christ came to earth. The Power of Jesus Christ (The Messiah, or Anointed one.)

Because Satan was now on Earth, with his devils (Angels) Jesus said.

Mat 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

Again.......................................................................

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ

Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Power of Christ, Jesus the Anointed one and his Anointing.

Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

Luk 4:21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.


Now when did Rev 12 take place?

Jesus is Lord.