Who goes through the tribulation?

[Beetow]

When I was a developing Christian back in the decade of the 1970's, a radio Bible
teacher recommended a book by J. Dwight Pentecost titled "Things To Come"
(ISBN 0-310-30890-9)

It proved an excellent resource at the time because I was very interested in Israel's
future and all the end time events. The book is still in print and can be had from
Amazon dot com. I'd guess that most book stores can order it too if it's not on their
shelves.
_

 

[Twistie]

● Rev 13:8 . . All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast-- all whose names
have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from
the world.

Jesus wasn't a stand-by paramedic sent to an unexpected train wreck, rather; he
was designated, and scheduled, to die on a cross prior to God creating even a
single atom for the current cosmos. (1Pet 1:18-21)

Everything is a foregone conclusion with God; nothing surprises Him. God foresaw
the forbidden fruit incident, He foresaw Cain and Abel, He foresaw the Flood, He
foresaw the Tower of Babel, He foresaw Sodom and Gomorrah, He foresaw the
Holocaust, and He has seen the Lake of Fire and the end of the world as we know
it.

There are no new Christians with God. He's already foreseen every one of them
back at the very beginning just as He's seen everything else ahead of time before it
comes to pass. Ergo: if somebody's name isn't already in the lamb's book of life,
then their name is never going to be in there.

● Eph 1:3-5 . . Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has
blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For He
chose us in him before the creation of the world . . . in love He predestined us to be
adopted as His sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with His pleasure and will.
_

And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.”.

Well if ya think bout this here that fire may feel like tribulations to some...

I went through many because my back was turned against the Lord at one time


He is a good j merciful Father


Twistie

 

[Beetow]

● Rev 13:4 . . And they worshipped the Dragon which gave power unto the Beast:
and they worshipped the Beast, saying: Who is like unto the Beast? Who is able to
make war with him?

* The Dragon is identified at Rev 12:9 as the Serpent, the Devil, and Satan; so
there can be no doubt who this creature really is. (cf. Rev 20:2)

It's quite possible that the people of that day will honestly believe the Beast is
empowered by a divine being; and unaware they are actually giving glory to a
demonic being instead. For example:

● 2Thess 2:9-12 . . .This evil man will come to do the work of Satan with
counterfeit power and signs and miracles. He will use every kind of wicked
deception to fool those who are on their way to destruction because they refuse
to believe the truth that would save them. So God will send great deception upon
them, and they will believe all these lies.

Worship of the Beast will be universal, mandatory, and strictly enforced regardless
of age, race, gender, and/or ethnic identity-- a one-world mega religion that blows
all others out of the water, e.g. Islam, Mormonism, Hinduism, Christianity, Judaism,
Baha'i, Buddhism, etc.
_

 

[Sue D.]

In your last paragraph are you talking about the 666 ?!

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

It seems everyone has an opinion or thought on this. The answer seems obvious to everyone, and yet, it seems everyone's answer is different.

Everyone has their own opinion because they haven't taken one key element into their consideration - Is the Great Tribulation the wrath of God - or the wrath of Satan? Most of us are taught that Satan is used by God to test us, but not in this case, the wrath of Satan is not the wrath of God. Satan will orchestrate his own manufactured great tribulation to prepare the way for the Antichrist, COVID was dress rehearsal of that. Once the Antichrist rises from the sea (Rev. 13:1) and marks all his worshippers, then God will pour out his wrath, that's the REAL great tribulation, which ONLY targets the Antichrist's worshippers. We the church will endure the wrath of Satan, but not the wrath of God. When the Antichrist comes, the church will be gone. Not necessarily through a "puff" sudden disappearance, though, as most believe, but dead, and awaiting for resurrection.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

This is a great and amazing point I would say and it looks like to are alluding to as well, that there are two wraths in the tribulation Gods wrath that the believers will NOT experience, and the devil's wrath which believers will most definitely experience and should look at it as joy and an honor to suffer for Jesus !!

Yeah, we'll be dead - and resurrected at the end of the Great Tribulation, when the Lord returns. That's how the church will be removed and thus spared from the real Great Tribulation, and that's what 1 Thess. 4:16-17 really points to.

 

[Beetow]

● Rev 13:5 . . And there was given unto the Beast a mouth speaking great things
and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Prophetic months aren't the same as calendar months. Prophetic months are thirty
days each; so that forty-two such months add up to 1,260 days, i.e. 3½ prophetic
years, e.g. Rev 11:2 & Rev 12:6

Prophetic months are sort of like a baker's dozen. Though a baker's dozen isn't a
dozen of twelve; it's nonetheless a dozen in its own right: the same with solar
time vs sidereal time, and true north vs magnetic north.

* Scripture introduces prophetic months in Genesis relative to the Flood where a
period of five months adds up to exactly 150 days.
_

 

[Sue D.]

"Prophetic" months compared to Real months. Where do you get that from?!

Also at the time of the rapture of the church ( there is no other rapture) the dead in Christ rise up first and then those of us who are alive will be taken up. All will happen in a split second.

Satan's wrath? We already k ow that Satan is the greatest liar ever known . He knows that is fate is already determined. To suffer forever in lake of fire and brimstone. He wants as many people as possible to suffer right along with him for ever. His thing is to make sin as desirable as possible. And for people to think that hell won't really be so bad.

And there's no reason for born-again believers to feel any of God's wrath.

 

[Sue D.]

● Rev 13:5 . . And there was given unto the Beast a mouth speaking great things
and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Prophetic months aren't the same as calendar months. Prophetic months are thirty
days each; so that forty-two such months add up to 1,260 days, i.e. 3½ prophetic
years, e.g. Rev 11:2 & Rev 12:6

Prophetic months are sort of like a baker's dozen. Though a baker's dozen isn't a
dozen of twelve; it's nonetheless a dozen in its own right: the same with solar
time vs sidereal time, and true north vs magnetic north.

* Scripture introduces prophetic months in Genesis relative to the Flood where a
period of five months adds up to exactly 150 days.
_

Looking at Genesis 7: 24 " and the waters prevailed on the earth one hundred and fifty days."... scripture gives us 150 days . You're the one who's calling the 5 months "prophetic" months. And yes 150 days equal 5 months.

So why are you referring to those periods of time as" prophetic".

 

[Dave M]

Also at the time of the rapture of the church ( there is no other rapture) the dead in Christ rise up first and then those of us who are alive will be taken up. All will happen in a split second.

wonder what scripture you have that plainly states this, because scripture that I know plainly states Jesus will gather his elect when he returns

 

[Sue D.]

@Dave M. Take a look at 1 Thessalonians 4: 15 - 18. That's describing the rapture-- Jesus Christ coming in the air and gathering all born-again believers from all over the world to be with Him. Then in Revelation 20: 4- 6. There is the 1000 yr earthly reign of christ here with those who were raptured coming with Him.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

@Dave M. Take a look at 1 Thessalonians 4: 15 - 18. That's describing the rapture-- Jesus Christ coming in the air and gathering all born-again believers from all over the world to be with Him. Then in Revelation 20: 4- 6. There is the 1000 yr earthly reign of christ here with those who were raptured coming with Him.

That is called RESURRECTION - of the dead. That’s what the rapture is really about. And that means, we must die first to be raised again, like the Lord himself. 1 Thess 4:16 clearly states that the dead must rise first, what makes you believe that we’ll be excluded from that?

 

[Sue D.]

@Jonathan_Gale. That passage is saying those that those have have died will go up first BUT those who are Alive at that time will follow. It will all happen in a split second. So when the rapture Does take place -- All born-again believers will be taken no matter where they are.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

@Jonathan_Gale. That passage is saying those that those have have died will go up first BUT those who are Alive at that time will follow. It will all happen in a split second. So when the rapture Does take place -- All born-again believers will be taken no matter where they are.

Look, this is more of a problem about the messaging than the message itself. Every preacher and every proponant of this rapture I've heard of have laser focused on 1 Thess. 4:17, while 1 Thess. 4:14-16 and all the resurrection prospective are completely ignored. It gives you a false impression, that we're not gonna die, and we won't experience any hardship, any persecution, any fiery trial, because we'll all be raptured, like "puff" in a split second as you said, and we're gone. To some, this version of rapture has replaced the blessed hope of salvation, and to others it has even caused anxiety. That's not in the bible and that's not what God has planned for us. If you read the whole chapter of 1 Cor. 15, it's all about resurrection, we'll be raised like Christ, which also means, we'll die first like all generations before us. "Those who are alive" are the same "tribes of the earth" who will mourn instead of rejoicing at the returning of the Lord (Matt. 24:30), that's the remnant Jews, not us.

 

[Hekuran]

Look, this is more of a problem about the messaging than the message itself. Every preacher and every proponant of this rapture I've heard of have laser focused on 1 Thess. 4:17, while 1 Thess. 4:14-16 and all the resurrection prospective are completely ignored. It gives you a false impression, that we're not gonna die, and we won't experience any hardship, any persecution, any fiery trial, because we'll all be raptured, like "puff" in a split second as you said, and we're gone. To some, this version of rapture has replaced the blessed hope of salvation, and to others it has even caused anxiety. That's not in the bible and that's not what God has planned for us. If you read the whole chapter of 1 Cor. 15, it's all about resurrection, we'll be raised like Christ, which also means, we'll die first like all generations before us. "Those who are alive" are the same "tribes of the earth" who will mourn instead of rejoicing at the returning of the Lord (Matt. 24:30), that's the remnant Jews, not us.

Agree completely. The New Testament writers nearly always talk of "tribulation" as a present reality, not a future prospect. See Revelation 1:9 for example. The people who first heard these visions were already undergoing tribulation.

The twin hopes of the New Testament are 1) Jesus returning in glory to restore justice 2) the resurrection of our bodies.

It's these promises that give the saints the strength to endure and persevere.

 

[Beetow]

● Rev 13:7-8 . . And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and
to overcome them; and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues,
and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose
names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the
foundation of the world.

Because we're talking about all kindreds, and tongues, and nations; then I
think we may safely assume that the "saints" in this case are possibly
anyone and everybody that can be counted as loyal to God; both Jew and
Gentile. This may or may not refer to armed conflict but for sure it's related
to oppression; and it's going to be very effective if we reckon these saints to
be the innumerable crowd depicted at Rev 7:9-17.

The Beast's management practices are extreme, but not all that unusual.
Take for example modern communist China. It's very dangerous to be
openly religious in that country, and/or hold values that differ with the
regime's, where they harvest the organs of Falun Gong adherents without
their consent. The situation in North Korea is little better where God is
second place to Kim Jong-Un.

The Lamb slain "from the foundation of the world" reveals that Jesus wasn't
a stand-by paramedic sent to an unexpected train wreck, rather; he was
designated, and scheduled, to die on a cross for the sins of the world prior to
God creating even a single atom for the current cosmos. (cf. 1Pet 1:18-21)
_

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

We need to keep in mind that not all things are physical, such as the war against the saints. That battle is also within, and has been ongoing for some time now.

This war is not against flesh and blood men but against the spirit of the Devil.

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

2 Corinthians 10:3-5​

​

King James Version​

​

​

3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds)
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;”


So this war is not only physical against the saints, but is also spiritual warfare, that wars against the soul...

1 Peter 2:11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from "fleshly lusts", which "war" against the soul;

Romans 7:23 "But I see another law "in" my members, "warring" against the law of my mind, and bringing me into "captivity" to the law of "sin" which is "in" my members."

James 4:1 From whence come "wars and fightings" among you? come they not hence, even of your "lusts" that "war" in your members?

 

[Dave M]

@Jonathan_Gale. That passage is saying those that those have have died will go up first BUT those who are Alive at that time will follow. It will all happen in a split second. So when the rapture Does take place -- All born-again believers will be taken no matter where they are.

the dead in christ are not raised until the last day, the last day is when Jesus Returns,

John 6:39-40​

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

I wonder how many who count on this pre-trib rapture to occur would count it a joy to suffer for Christ, or even die for Christ. I wonder if they even think those terms?

 

[Hekuran]

I wonder how many who count on this pre-trib rapture to occur would count it a joy to suffer for Christ, or even die for Christ. I wonder if they even think those terms?

Or what they think of the multitudes of Faithful believers who have been oppressed, beaten, driven from homes, cast out of families, even given their lives for the sake of the kingdom? The rapture theology does nothing to help persecuted believers persevere in their faith.

 

[PloughBoy]

We need to keep in mind that not all things are physical, such as the war against the saints. That battle is also within, and has been ongoing for some time now.

This war is not against flesh and blood men but against the spirit of the Devil.

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

2 Corinthians 10:3-5​

​

King James Version​

​

​

3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds)
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;”


So this war is not only physical against the saints, but is also spiritual warfare, that wars against the soul...

1 Peter 2:11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from "fleshly lusts", which "war" against the soul;

Romans 7:23 "But I see another law "in" my members, "warring" against the law of my mind, and bringing me into "captivity" to the law of "sin" which is "in" my members."

James 4:1 From whence come "wars and fightings" among you? come they not hence, even of your "lusts" that "war" in your members?

So True:
Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

But we have 3 enemies; and we Fight on 3 Fronts and those 3 are Allies and real

1. The World
2. The Flesh
3. The devil

We must know who are enemies are and do not get confused who is attacking us at certain points.

If our attack is from the Flesh do not set your defense or give that credit to the devil.

If the attack is from the desires of The World and world views do not give in a credit contribute to a demon or devil "Know your enemy who is coming against you at that time.

For most Christians have not even encounter "The DEVIL" why should he waste his time. for most christians and bound and are detailed by "the FLESH" if not the flesh the desires and the ways of this have them trap. The devil do not waste his time on them. No need.

One of the best kinds of a fighter is "defensive" fighter, learn To be a defensive fighter and know your attacker's ways and actions. For whether is he a "deceiver" skilled in deceptions and play dead or weak. Our enemies are not weak but strong and the devil is wise and subtle, he will set a trap for you today to fall in, that will only spring up thirty years from now. we must be "wise as a serpent and harmless than a Dove" when we engage him.

King James Bible
Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world Is The Enemy Of God.

American Standard Version
and the cares of the world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, Choke The Word, And It Becometh Unfruitful.
James 1
But each one is tempted when by his own evil desires he is lured away and enticed. 15Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.…

from what I have observed for almost 50 years now, that most christians have never engage "The devil" or entered a "Spiritual Battle" for many are not capable or "Skilled enough" too. Neither are they equip to even recognize the enemy or aware of The Devil's skills and expertise.

They have been entangle with and in a battle of such things below and not "the EVIL one" who puts His "Sharp Talons" into, And crab your very Soul and will not let go until The LORD, tells him so, then you will know who He is and the fight is real and that we are not in "Disney land"! and you will know why, his destiny is "The LAKE Burning with Brimstone and Fire"

Mark 7:22
…"For from within the hearts of men come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22greed, wickedness, deceit, debauchery, envy, slander, arrogance, and foolishness. 23All These Evils Come From Within, And these are what defile a man.”… Man is A EVIL CREATURE! A BEAST that has restraints on him! and those restraints are another kind of "Grace"
The HEART is WICKED and cannot be tame!

King James Bible
"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? " {the very love, the human heart produces is very "wicked" and evil]


NASB 1977
No soldier in active service entangles himself in the affairs of everyday life, so that he may please the one who enlisted him as a soldier.

And we know a country, will not enlist every person that wants to join. Th most dangerous soldier on the Battle field is a Soldier that who will get so frighten that He will "Shoot His Own Comrade in The Heat of the Battle, but will choke up, in The very Face of The REAL ENEMY AND not Pull the trigger, by fright or Ignorance. "Know your enemy, whether they are "male or female"

Know your enemy. "The Flesh, The World, The Devil" and where they Live. and what weapons you have to use against each one.