Who is the church service for ( believers or nonbelievers? Or Both)

[Jesus_is_LORD]

I was listening to a sermon and the pastor stated that the church service is not intended for the nonbeliever.
He stated, it is not about trying to waterdown the service to appeal to those who don't already know God
but to preach the WORD to build up the body of Christ who already have a relationship with God.

Some would say no, the church service should be set up to appeal to the nonbelievers who may
be coming to the service, while others will say no, we gather on Sunday as the body of Christ
to worship God and we go out into the world to save the lost. The latter group will say that the
saving happens when we go out into the world, not simply by getting the nonbeliever to a
church service that is customized for them.

What are your thoughts?

 

[Waggles]

I was listening to a sermon and the pastor stated that the church service is not intended for the nonbeliever.
He stated, it is not about trying to waterdown the service to appeal to those who don't already know God
but to preach the WORD to build up the body of Christ who already have a relationship with God.

He is correct and this is scriptural as well.
The church is the members of a local assembly or congregation who COME TOGETHER for a service
The rules of conduct are laid out in 1Corinthians 14
Whilst outsiders ought to be encouraged to attend a meeting and learn of doctrine and the gospel this is not the primary purpose for the ekklesia to come together once or twice a week.
Principally a church service is also to celebrate the death and resurrection of our Lord and God, Christ Jesus, who gave his life for his church - holy communion as commanded by Jesus himself.

Luke 22:17 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he said, “Take this, and divide it among yourselves.
19 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.”

1Corinthians 14:26 What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up.

 

[Hekuran]

I agree. Apparently in the second and third centuries, services were closed. Only after catechism and baptism were people admitted to services.

Also, a service is primarily for God, not for people. We come together to serve him with our devotion, worship and praise.

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

I agree. Apparently in the second and third centuries, services were closed. Only after catechism and baptism were people admitted to services.

Also, a service is primarily for God, not for people. We come together to serve him with our devotion, worship and praise.

Most definitely, great point there. The modern church often tries to make the members the center of focus of the worship and not God.

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

He is correct and this is scriptural as well.
The church is the members of a local assembly or congregation who COME TOGETHER for a service
The rules of conduct are laid out in 1Corinthians 14
Whilst outsiders ought to be encouraged to attend a meeting and learn of doctrine and the gospel this is not the primary purpose for the ekklesia to come together once or twice a week.
Principally a church service is also to celebrate the death and resurrection of our Lord and God, Christ Jesus, who gave his life for his church - holy communion as commanded by Jesus himself.

Luke 22:17 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he said, “Take this, and divide it among yourselves.
19 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.”

1Corinthians 14:26 What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up.

Thanks for the Bible verses, yeah makes sense.

 

[complete]

I was listening to a sermon and the pastor stated that the church service is not intended for the nonbeliever.
He stated, it is not about trying to water down the service to appeal to those who don't already know God
but to preach the WORD to build up the body of Christ who already have a relationship with God.

Some would say no, the church service should be set up to appeal to the nonbelievers who may
be coming to the service, while others will say no, we gather on Sunday as the body of Christ
to worship God and we go out into the world to save the lost. The latter group will say that the
saving happens when we go out into the world, not simply by getting the nonbeliever to a
church service that is customized for them.

What are your thoughts?

Hello @Jesus_is_LORD,

I went to a non-denominational chapel where there was a pre-service communion service and prayer meeting each Sunday morning. The morning service was a time of consecutive teaching for believers, with the addition of the gospel message should a stranger come in: in the afternoon a Sunday school for the young; and in the evening a service dedicated to worship and the preaching of the gospel, with an after-service for prayer.

It covered all aspects of Christian life and service in the one day, as well as Prayer meeting on Monday evening, Bible study meeting on Tuesday, choir practice on Wednesday, Women's meeting on Thursday, and Men's meeting on a Friday.

It was balanced, with Worship, Edification and Evangelisation .

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

Hello @Jesus_is_LORD,

I went to a non-denominational chapel where there was a pre-service communion service and prayer meeting each Sunday morning. The morning service was a time of consecutive teaching for believers, with the addition of the gospel message should a stranger come in: in the afternoon a Sunday school for the young; and in the evening a service dedicated to worship and the preaching of the gospel, with an after-service for prayer.

It covered all aspects of Christian life and service in the one day, as well as Prayer meeting on Monday evening, Bible study meeting on Tuesday, choir practice on Wednesday, Women's meeting on Thursday, and Men's meeting on a Friday.

It was balanced, with Worship, Edification and Evangelisation .

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hey sister in Christ, thanks for sharing about your worship experience.

Sounds like you really enjoyed it.

 

[Garee]

I was listening to a sermon and the pastor stated that the church service is not intended for the nonbeliever.
He stated, it is not about trying to waterdown the service to appeal to those who don't already know God
but to preach the WORD to build up the body of Christ who already have a relationship with God.

Some would say no, the church service should be set up to appeal to the nonbelievers who may
be coming to the service, while others will say no, we gather on Sunday as the body of Christ
to worship God and we go out into the world to save the lost. The latter group will say that the
saving happens when we go out into the world, not simply by getting the nonbeliever to a
church service that is customized for them.

What are your thoughts?

I would think its for both believers who perform the signified demonstrations as a sign or shadow of the things not seen . And those unbelievers who are drawn to it in a hope of digging in the Bible to help solve the mysteries of faith (the unseen) ..

Ceremonies are shadows that point to the unseen things of God . In that way signs are for those who believe not prophecy. Prophecy to those that do believe. . God can use signs (kill first born) to move those who do not trust prophecy . Like when moving the Israel out ..of Egypt But again prophecy had already was given providing faith looking ahead 400 years earlier to the believer.

Nicodenmus is one that did follow after sign and wonders before he would believe God not seen . When Jesus revealed to him the greatest possible miracle .(born again) He lovingly commanded Nicodenmus to marvel not .Marveling and wondering is not believing . Again its not a sign to the believer of self edification

 

[complete]

I would think its for both believers who perform the signified demonstrations as a sign or shadow of the things not seen . And those unbelievers who are drawn to it in a hope of digging in the Bible to help solve the mysteries of faith (the unseen) ..

Ceremonies are shadows that point to the unseen things of God . In that way signs are for those who believe not prophecy. Prophecy to those that do believe. . God can use signs (kill first born) to move those who do not trust prophecy . Like when moving the Israel out ..of Egypt But again prophecy had already was given providing faith looking ahead 400 years earlier to the believer.

Nicodenmus is one that did follow after sign and wonders before he would believe God not seen . When Jesus revealed to him the greatest possible miracle .(born again) He lovingly commanded Nicodenmus to marvel not .Marveling and wondering is not believing . Again its not a sign to the believer of self edification

Hey sister in Christ, thanks for sharing about your worship experience.

Sounds like you really enjoyed it.

Hello there,

I was seventeen years of age when I left that chapel, it was a nurturing loving experience. Maintained by loving, caring individuals, whose object was to serve the Lord. Though it was not through their ministry that I came to know the Lord Jesus Christ as my Saviour. That took place at a 'Youth for Christ 'rally at the age of twelve years, which took place within the town, as part of an evangelisation campaign. I left the area at the age of seventeen.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Garee]

Hello there,

I was seventeen years of age when I left that chapel, it was a nurturing loving experience. Maintained by loving, caring individuals, whose object was to serve the Lord. Though it was not through their ministry that I came to know the Lord Jesus Christ as my Saviour. That took place at a 'Youth for Christ 'rally at the age of twelve years, which took place within the town, as part of an evangelisation campaign. I left the area at the age of seventeen.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

I attended a similar assembly for 25 years that had a good format for hearing the gospel.

But left because of different interpretation format as in many cases .

How do we understand the signified words "thousand years" :. One of the main causes of division .

 

[complete]

I attended a similar assembly for 25 years that had a good format for hearing the gospel.

But left because of different interpretation format as in many cases .

How do we understand the signified words "thousand years" :. One of the main causes of division .

Hello @Garee,

Are you referring to the 1,000 years that Satan will be bound, during the reign of the Overcomers with Christ at the end of the age (Revelation 20:1-6)?
I believe it to be a period of the duration stated, but that the reign of Christ will continue after that period comes to an end.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[B-A-C]

I believe it to be a period of the duration stated, but that the reign of Christ will continue after that period comes to an end.

I agree, it's the period between His return, and when Satan is finally defeated. It doesn't mean the end of His reign altogether, at least not yet.

Rev 20:7; When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,
Rev 20:8; and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.
Rev 20:9; And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
Rev 20:10; And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

However Jesus doesn't own the kingdom forever.

1Cor 15:24; then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
1Cor 15:25; For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
1Cor 15:26; The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
1Cor 15:27; For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.
1Cor 15:28; When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

Jesus isn't our final destination, the Father is. But we can't get to Him without Jesus.

John 14:6; Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

 

[Christ4Ever]

I was listening to a sermon and the pastor stated that the church service is not intended for the nonbeliever.
He stated, it is not about trying to waterdown the service to appeal to those who don't already know God
but to preach the WORD to build up the body of Christ who already have a relationship with God.

Some would say no, the church service should be set up to appeal to the nonbelievers who may
be coming to the service, while others will say no, we gather on Sunday as the body of Christ
to worship God and we go out into the world to save the lost. The latter group will say that the
saving happens when we go out into the world, not simply by getting the nonbeliever to a
church service that is customized for them.

What are your thoughts?

Dear Brother,
I'm not too sure I'd agree with this stance. I mean take for instance the pastor saying "...it is not about trying to waterdown the service to appeal to those who don't already know God but to preach the WORD to build up the body of Christ who already have a relationship with God." And that is just the beginning of what you have shared that I see a wrongness with!

Sounds good on the surface, but one must dig deeper into it to see if there is validity to what is being said. I mean, it doesn't even allow for the holding of separate services, because it means having to quote "the church service should be set up to appeal to the nonbeliever who may be coming to the service...". A thought just popped in my mind "Separate but equal"! (lol)

Think about it. Because one has unbelievers during the service, it needs to be watered down???? I wonder if anyone asked, "Why does it have to be watered down?" Now unless you're treating the service as a Bible Study, I don't see why it has to be "watered down" and if it is a Bible Study, then it might have to be watered down for me too! So, if the church is open to non-believers, then whether watered down or not, will they understand the Word (which I assume is preached in both services) without the Holy Spirit??? They may think they do, just like I used to believe I did before the Holy Spirit resided in me and opened my understanding, but we know that's not true. It doesn't take much to see that in Christendom Academia to realize that there are many knowledgeable individuals in the World, that lack Spirit filled understanding of the Bible and are teaching the Word to others. (sad really)

So, in these non-watered down church services would it be necessary to present the Gospel since you only have believers attending??? And then I'd ask, "How do you know everyone attending those services are believers???" We probably can point out a few of those in our own churches, or gatherings that profess to be believers, but are questionable at best!!! Which then really brings to mind "Separating the wheat from the chaff"!!! If only believers are allowed in, then I guess some of them are going to be separated, yet don't realize it. For whom of us can tell for a surety??? Surely not me. My discernment is not prophetic to know how a person's life will end at their last breath, and whether they will have come to Christ or not.

This is just part of the bases of my disagreement in keeping non-believers out of church services.

You can look at Scripture, and there are enough instances besides the "separating of the wheat and chaff" to see that non-believers did attend with the believers in services. One must realize that we are the Church!!! As the Body of Christ, that is who we are when we come together!!! Whether in a building or parking lot "where two or more are gathered"!!! Well, we can add any number of things to church services, and I can still do it in a parking lot!!! \o/ I've taken communion to someone in the Hospital, so having it in the parking lot is not okay??? Sure it is!!!

Now I can point out some verses in Scripture that shows the mingling of believers/non-believers is accepted. Take for instance the speaking of tongues. Whether you believe in tongues being active today or not, back in the day when it was, what did Paul say about it to the church in Corinth?

22 Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe. 23 Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in [those who are] uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an uninformed person comes in, he is convinced by all, he is convicted by all. 25 And thus the secrets of his heart are revealed; and so, falling down on [his] face, he will worship God and report that God is truly among you. 1 Corinthians 14:22-25 NKJV

Note: Notice the part "if the whole church comes together in one place"! Remember we are the church or I'm curious how they moved the houses/buildings to where they were at!!! Couldn't resist!

Anyway, I'm curious how many of us would tell a non-believer who wanted to go to church with us that I'm sorry you can't go, because you're not a believer, but we can talk about it later or somewhere else! Sorry, but not me, and if the church had the position where only believers need attend. I'd say I'm sorry got to go, and start looking for another building, if my reasoning to the Pastor in a sit down was unconvincing why it's wrong.

So, I hope I haven't upset anyone by the above words, though I'm sure we can find reasoning for having it as this Pastor says it should be. The Church is still us as the Body of Christ!!!

I'll share a song that popped into my head! I hope you'll enjoy it.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

P.S. I like how Sister @complete described the non-denominational church she attended worked. Though I am curious how many denominational churches, as well as many others (non) would be able to have such a schedule and have current members continue to attend when it would take up so much of their time!!! Personally, the more gathering of the Body of Christ that we do, the better!!!

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

Dear Brother,
I'm not too sure I'd agree with this stance. I mean take for instance the pastor saying "...it is not about trying to waterdown the service to appeal to those who don't already know God but to preach the WORD to build up the body of Christ who already have a relationship with God." And that is just the beginning of what you have shared that I see a wrongness with!

Sounds good on the surface, but one must dig deeper into it to see if there is validity to what is being said. I mean, it doesn't even allow for the holding of separate services, because it means having to quote "the church service should be set up to appeal to the nonbeliever who may be coming to the service...". A thought just popped in my mind "Separate but equal"! (lol)

Think about it. Because one has unbelievers during the service, it needs to be watered down???? I wonder if anyone asked, "Why does it have to be watered down?" Now unless you're treating the service as a Bible Study, I don't see why it has to be "watered down" and if it is a Bible Study, then it might have to be watered down for me too! So, if the church is open to non-believers, then whether watered down or not, will they understand the Word (which I assume is preached in both services) without the Holy Spirit??? They may think they do, just like I used to believe I did before the Holy Spirit resided in me and opened my understanding, but we know that's not true. It doesn't take much to see that in Christendom Academia to realize that there are many knowledgeable individuals in the World, that lack Spirit filled understanding of the Bible and are teaching the Word to others. (sad really)

So, in these non-watered down church services would it be necessary to present the Gospel since you only have believers attending??? And then I'd ask, "How do you know everyone attending those services are believers???" We probably can point out a few of those in our own churches, or gatherings that profess to be believers, but are questionable at best!!! Which then really brings to mind "Separating the wheat from the chaff"!!! If only believers are allowed in, then I guess some of them are going to be separated, yet don't realize it. For whom of us can tell for a surety??? Surely not me. My discernment is not prophetic to know how a person's life will end at their last breath, and whether they will have come to Christ or not.

This is just part of the bases of my disagreement in keeping non-believers out of church services.

You can look at Scripture, and there are enough instances besides the "separating of the wheat and chaff" to see that non-believers did attend with the believers in services. One must realize that we are the Church!!! As the Body of Christ, that is who we are when we come together!!! Whether in a building or parking lot "where two or more are gathered"!!! Well, we can add any number of things to church services, and I can still do it in a parking lot!!! \o/ I've taken communion to someone in the Hospital, so having it in the parking lot is not okay??? Sure it is!!!

Now I can point out some verses in Scripture that shows the mingling of believers/non-believers is accepted. Take for instance the speaking of tongues. Whether you believe in tongues being active today or not, back in the day when it was, what did Paul say about it to the church in Corinth?

22 Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe. 23 Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in [those who are] uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an uninformed person comes in, he is convinced by all, he is convicted by all. 25 And thus the secrets of his heart are revealed; and so, falling down on [his] face, he will worship God and report that God is truly among you. 1 Corinthians 14:22-25 NKJV

Note: Notice the part "if the whole church comes together in one place"! Remember we are the church or I'm curious how they moved the houses/buildings to where they were at!!! Couldn't resist!

Anyway, I'm curious how many of us would tell a non-believer who wanted to go to church with us that I'm sorry you can't go, because you're not a believer, but we can talk about it later or somewhere else! Sorry, but not me, and if the church had the position where only believers need attend. I'd say I'm sorry got to go, and start looking for another building, if my reasoning to the Pastor in a sit down was unconvincing why it's wrong.

So, I hope I haven't upset anyone by the above words, though I'm sure we can find reasoning for having it as this Pastor says it should be. The Church is still us as the Body of Christ!!!

I'll share a song that popped into my head! I hope you'll enjoy it.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

P.S. I like how Sister @complete described the non-denominational church she attended worked. Though I am curious how many denominational churches, as well as many others (non) would be able to have such a schedule and have current members continue to attend when it would take up so much of their time!!! Personally, the more gathering of the Body of Christ that we do, the better!!!

Greetings, always a pleasure reading what you have to say.

Thanks for sharing the perspective. Definitely some good points mentioned as well as the scripture sources.

Very good points. Thanks.

 

[Garee]

Hello @Garee,

Are you referring to the 1,000 years that Satan will be bound, during the reign of the Overcomers with Christ at the end of the age (Revelation 20:1-6)?
I believe it to be a period of the duration stated, but that the reign of Christ will continue after that period comes to an end.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Satan is bound, he fell when the veil was rent .There was no Jewish king as King of kings .Lord of lords sitting in the Holy of Holies ,Satan the lying spirit of error could no longer deceive all the nations of the world there was a Jewish King of kings as Lord of lords sitting there . When the veil was rent the lasts days began .

The signified thousand years in that parable (Revelation 20) represents a unknown .Therefore not a literal thousand years ,

The Amil "no literal thousand years" it works the best in understanding the parable which without Christ spoke not .Purposely hiding the mysteries of faith called hidden mana in Revelation 2:17 revealing the gospel understanding to the believers

Note. . (green) "metaphors" used in parables using the temporal things seen to give us the unseen understanding of faith

Revelation 20:1-3King James Version And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations (plural) no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

 

[complete]

Satan is bound, he fell when the veil was rent .There was no Jewish king as King of kings .Lord of lords sitting in the Holy of Holies ,Satan the lying spirit of error could no longer deceive all the nations of the world there was a Jewish King of kings as Lord of lords sitting there . When the veil was rent the lasts days began .

The signified thousand years in that parable (Revelation 20) represents a unknown .Therefore not a literal thousand years ,

The Amil "no literal thousand years" it works the best in understanding the parable which without Christ spoke not .Purposely hiding the mysteries of faith called hidden mana in Revelation 2:17 revealing the gospel understanding to the believers

Note. . (green) "metaphors" used in parables using the temporal things seen to give us the unseen understanding of faith

Revelation 20:1-3King James Version And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations (plural) no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

'And he laid hold on the dragon,
that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan,
and bound him a thousand years,
And cast him into the bottomless pit,
and shut him up, and set a seal upon him,
that he should deceive the nations no more,
till the thousand years should be fulfilled:
and after that he must be loosed a little season.'
(Revelation 20:2-3)

' Jesus, when He had cried again with a loud voice,
yielded up the ghost.
And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain
from the top to the bottom;
and the earth did quake,
and the rocks rent; ... '
(Matthew 27:50-51)

Hello @Garee,

So, you believe that Revelation 20:2-3 (above) has already taken place? That therefore Satan in now 'bound'? That he is therefore not deceiving the nations at this particular time? That this 'binding' took place when the veil of the temple was rent? That Satan has been in the bottomless pit ever since. Therefore, you believe that there has been no Satanic activity since that time. Is that what you believe? If it is: What is the scriptural basis for this belief?

* To answer this here would derail this thread, Garee. Perhaps you need to start another thread upon this subject, such as:- 'When was Satan bound?'

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[B-A-C]

Satan is bound, he fell when the veil was rent

Always a Preterist or two lurking around

1Cor 5:5; I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
1Cor 7:5; Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer, and come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.
2Cor 2:11; so that no advantage would be taken of us by Satan, for we are not ignorant of his schemes.
2Cor 11:14; No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
2Cor 12:7; Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me—to keep me from exalting myself!
1Thes 2:18; For we wanted to come to you—I, Paul, more than once—and yet Satan hindered us.
2Thes 2:9; that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,
1Tim 1:20; Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan, so that they will be taught not to blaspheme.
1Tim 5:15; for some have already turned aside to follow Satan.
Eph 6:12; For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.

Do you realize all of these (and few more I missed) verses were written after Jesus was crucified and resurrected. He is defeated, yes. But he still influences people. Non-Christians can still be subject to his will.

1Pet 5:8; Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.

This verse also was written after Jesus was resurrected.

in understanding the parable

Not everything in the Bible is a Parable. Jesus started of with Parables...

Matt 13:34; All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds in parables, and He did not speak to them without a parable.

But He ended up speaking plainly to people near the end of His ministry.

John 16:25; "These things I have spoken to you in figurative language; an hour is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but will tell you plainly of the Father.
John 16:26; "In that day you will ask in My name, and I do not say to you that I will request of the Father on your behalf;
John 16:27; for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me and have believed that I came forth from the Father.
John 16:28; "I came forth from the Father and have come into the world; I am leaving the world again and going to the Father."
John 16:29; His disciples *said, "Lo, now You are speaking plainly and are not using a figure of speech.

By the time the Epistles and Revelation were written, Jesus no longer used "Parables".

 

[Garee]

'And he laid hold on the dragon,
that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan,
and bound him a thousand years,
And cast him into the bottomless pit,
and shut him up, and set a seal upon him,
that he should deceive the nations no more,
till the thousand years should be fulfilled:
and after that he must be loosed a little season.'
(Revelation 20:2-3)

' Jesus, when He had cried again with a loud voice,
yielded up the ghost.
And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain
from the top to the bottom;
and the earth did quake,
and the rocks rent; ... '
(Matthew 27:50-51)

Hello @Garee,

So, you believe that Revelation 20:2-3 (above) has already taken place? That therefore Satan in now 'bound'? That he is therefore not deceiving the nations at this particular time? That this 'binding' took place when the veil of the temple was rent? That Satan has been in the bottomless pit ever since. Therefore, you believe that there has been no Satanic activity since that time. Is that what you believe? If it is: What is the scriptural basis for this belief?

* To answer this here would derail this thread, Garee. Perhaps you need to start another thread upon this subject, such as:- 'When was Satan bound?'

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

I thanks for the reply

I would offer.Not any particular time .The veil is rent

The key is not deceiving the nations that a person must be a Jew. And not, not being able to deceive mankind altogether . Satan even today accuses the believer day and night 24 -7 . Just like he deceived Peter
Moving Peter to rebuke the Lord forbidding the Son of man Jesus to do the will of the Father. .

In that way satan is still bringing with all power to deceive mankind with lying wonders and God is still sending a strong delusion to those so they can keep believing the lies .

 

[Garee]

Not everything in the Bible is a Parable. Jesus started of with Parables...

Matt 13:34; All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds in parables, and He did not speak to them without a parable.

But He ended up speaking plainly to people near the end of His ministry.

John 16:25; "These things I have spoken to you in figurative language; an hour is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but will tell you plainly of the Father.
John 16:26; "In that day you will ask in My name, and I do not say to you that I will request of the Father on your behalf;
John 16:27; for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me and have believed that I came forth from the Father.
John 16:28; "I came forth from the Father and have come into the world; I am leaving the world again and going to the Father."
John 16:29; His disciples *said, "Lo, now You are speaking plainly and are not using a figure of speech.

By the time the Epistles and Revelation were written, Jesus no longer used "Parables".

Hi thanks for the reply.

I would offer the law as it is written below ..

Matthew 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

Parables as prophecy are used to hide the unseen gospel understanding which without the Spirit of Christ worked in sons of men , like Jesus but not with him exclusively. They use the temporal things seen to give us the unseen spiritual understanding beginning in Genesis .

The prescription needed to rightly divide the parables must be used if we walk by faith after the unseen things of God.

Corinthians 4: 18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Perhaps not the first but one that comes to mind is Genesis 3:15 I call it the parable of the bruising of the heel the seed (Christ) It is repeated in Isaiah 53 . The father striking the Son bruising his heel crushing the head of the serpent (the father of lies) The woman as a metaphor representing the bride of Christ the church.

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. (the son of man Jesus)

Isaiah 53: 4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Isaiah 53: 10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

Parables are designed to teach us how to walk by faith the unseen things of God. They do not destroy the historical literal value but comes along side again to help us learn how to walk by faith using the 2 Corinthian 4:18 prescription .

As a testimony to the law without parables Christ spoke not hiding the mysteries of faith .In Luke 9 and Mark 9 .a whole series of parables are used . Christ hiding the unseen understanding from the apostles .

On one occasion in there confusion they began to elect a new alfa dog (Leader) with Jesus standing right in front .They must of thought Jesus went of the deep end as did his own family . I would think the most misunderstood person that walked on earth . again and again the understanding of faith was hid .

In the end of the matter he rebuked the apostles and revealed to them they knew not what manner of spirt they were of (of the flesh no faith) ) and not the spiritual understanding..

Parables have there place in prophecy as one of the matters of faith .

Luke 9: 42-48 And as he was yet a coming, the devil threw him down, and tare him. And Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit, and healed the child, and delivered him again to his father. And they were all amazed (amazed like marveling or wondering is not believing, exercising faith ) at the mighty power of God. But while they wondered( not believing,) every one at all things which Jesus did, he said unto his disciples, Let these sayings sink down into your ears: for the Son of man shall be delivered into the hands of men. But they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not: and they feared to ask him of that saying. Then there arose a reasoning among them, which of them should be greatest. And Jesus, perceiving the thought of their heart, took a child, and set him by him, And said unto them, Whosoever shall receive this child in my name receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that sent me: for he that is least among you all, the same shall be great.

The apostle John still not understanding.

Luke 9: 49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.

Jesus defining the us ..that did not go out from the true us as having not to do with outward appearance of the flesh

Luke 9: 50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

Again the Holy Spirit hiding the spiritual understanding .The apostles demanded Jesus bring fire as in "out of sight out of mind" walking by sight after the things of the flesh

Luke 9: 51-54 And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem,And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him. And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem. And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?

Luke 9: 55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

 

[Hekuran]

Dear Brother,
I'm not too sure I'd agree with this stance. I mean take for instance the pastor saying "...it is not about trying to waterdown the service to appeal to those who don't already know God but to preach the WORD to build up the body of Christ who already have a relationship with God." And that is just the beginning of what you have shared that I see a wrongness with!

Sounds good on the surface, but one must dig deeper into it to see if there is validity to what is being said. I mean, it doesn't even allow for the holding of separate services, because it means having to quote "the church service should be set up to appeal to the nonbeliever who may be coming to the service...". A thought just popped in my mind "Separate but equal"! (lol)

Think about it. Because one has unbelievers during the service, it needs to be watered down???? I wonder if anyone asked, "Why does it have to be watered down?" Now unless you're treating the service as a Bible Study, I don't see why it has to be "watered down" and if it is a Bible Study, then it might have to be watered down for me too! So, if the church is open to non-believers, then whether watered down or not, will they understand the Word (which I assume is preached in both services) without the Holy Spirit??? They may think they do, just like I used to believe I did before the Holy Spirit resided in me and opened my understanding, but we know that's not true. It doesn't take much to see that in Christendom Academia to realize that there are many knowledgeable individuals in the World, that lack Spirit filled understanding of the Bible and are teaching the Word to others. (sad really)

So, in these non-watered down church services would it be necessary to present the Gospel since you only have believers attending??? And then I'd ask, "How do you know everyone attending those services are believers???" We probably can point out a few of those in our own churches, or gatherings that profess to be believers, but are questionable at best!!! Which then really brings to mind "Separating the wheat from the chaff"!!! If only believers are allowed in, then I guess some of them are going to be separated, yet don't realize it. For whom of us can tell for a surety??? Surely not me. My discernment is not prophetic to know how a person's life will end at their last breath, and whether they will have come to Christ or not.

This is just part of the bases of my disagreement in keeping non-believers out of church services.

You can look at Scripture, and there are enough instances besides the "separating of the wheat and chaff" to see that non-believers did attend with the believers in services. One must realize that we are the Church!!! As the Body of Christ, that is who we are when we come together!!! Whether in a building or parking lot "where two or more are gathered"!!! Well, we can add any number of things to church services, and I can still do it in a parking lot!!! \o/ I've taken communion to someone in the Hospital, so having it in the parking lot is not okay??? Sure it is!!!

Now I can point out some verses in Scripture that shows the mingling of believers/non-believers is accepted. Take for instance the speaking of tongues. Whether you believe in tongues being active today or not, back in the day when it was, what did Paul say about it to the church in Corinth?

22 Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe. 23 Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in [those who are] uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an uninformed person comes in, he is convinced by all, he is convicted by all. 25 And thus the secrets of his heart are revealed; and so, falling down on [his] face, he will worship God and report that God is truly among you. 1 Corinthians 14:22-25 NKJV

Note: Notice the part "if the whole church comes together in one place"! Remember we are the church or I'm curious how they moved the houses/buildings to where they were at!!! Couldn't resist!

Anyway, I'm curious how many of us would tell a non-believer who wanted to go to church with us that I'm sorry you can't go, because you're not a believer, but we can talk about it later or somewhere else! Sorry, but not me, and if the church had the position where only believers need attend. I'd say I'm sorry got to go, and start looking for another building, if my reasoning to the Pastor in a sit down was unconvincing why it's wrong.

So, I hope I haven't upset anyone by the above words, though I'm sure we can find reasoning for having it as this Pastor says it should be. The Church is still us as the Body of Christ!!!

I'll share a song that popped into my head! I hope you'll enjoy it.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

P.S. I like how Sister @complete described the non-denominational church she attended worked. Though I am curious how many denominational churches, as well as many others (non) would be able to have such a schedule and have current members continue to attend when it would take up so much of their time!!! Personally, the more gathering of the Body of Christ that we do, the better!!!

Interesting thoughts. I didn't take the OP to mean that non-believers should be excluded from services, just that services should be prepared with believers in mind. If one of my friends asked to come to church with me, I wouldn't dream of saying no.

Where you land on this would affect the way a church worships together too. For example, a service that makes a priority of unbelievers could not easily celebrate the Lord's Supper. My church very often invites everybody in the congregation to pray together in small groups of three or four -- that's fine if there's one or two people coming into the service as observers, but would it would get awkward with many unbelievers in the room.

If we know that there will be more visitors from outside (a baptism or a baby dedication for example) then we tend to be more careful explaining what is going on in the service.

As for preaching the gospel, I've attended church for over 40 years and I still need to be reminded of the truth and glory of the gospel very regularly.