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Will people go to hell? What does the Bible say?

Do you know what the Bible says about if people go to hell?

  • Yes

    Votes: 16 94.1%
  • No

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I think so but I am not sure

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I don't think it matters

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I haven't really looked to see what it actually says

    Votes: 1 5.9%
  • That is what everyone says, so it must be true

    Votes: 1 5.9%
  • I think so but I am interested in finding out for sure

    Votes: 1 5.9%

  • Total voters
    17
You seem to think as I think my friend, it is my salvation, I must know the Truth.

Having an open mind is key for me, never rule things out, suss them out. Another way I try explain is to step outside the window, see it from above, try see things as God sees them, we never can totally but stepping out of the frame is good practice, I am not influenced by my own thoughts or beliefs.

People can have some very strange ideas that are scripture based. False teachers who do not realise it.

Blessings.

Seem like we do think alike. I basically laid all of my beliefs on the table and anything that couldn't stand up to Scripture got tossed. The early Christian writings were a help. Several of the earliest were actually taught by the apostles, so their words are extremely useful. I think the hardest thing is coming to the Scriptures with a clean slate. It's hard to set aside what you believe and not let it influence how you read the text. I'll tell you another thing that I've found beneficial, that's a study of logically fallacies. Many people don't realize the logical errors in their arguments. If we understand the fallacies it goes a long way in helping us form our own logical arguments.
 
Now where is His Father's house?

And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves; and would not suffer that any man should carry any vessel through the temple. And He taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves. And the scribes and chief priests heard it, and sought how they might destroy Him: for they feared Him, because all the people was astonished at His doctrine.
Mark 11:15-18
 
The temple was one use of His Father's house. Mark 11

Another use is speaking of a believer's heart being the temple of the Holy Spirit.

And another use is John 14:6 "in my Father's house are many mansions -- I go to prepare a place for you.' In heaven -- not here on earth.
 
And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves; and would not suffer that any man should carry any vessel through the temple. And He taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves. And the scribes and chief priests heard it, and sought how they might destroy Him: for they feared Him, because all the people was astonished at His doctrine.

Technically Mark 11 doesn't say "Father's house" anywhere in this passage. But that really isn't the point. The church on Earth is just a copy of the one in heaven.

Heb 9:23; Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24; For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
Heb 9:25; nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own.
 
The temple was one use of His Father's house. Mark 11

Another use is speaking of a believer's heart being the temple of the Holy Spirit.

And another use is John 14:6 "in my Father's house are many mansions -- I go to prepare a place for you.' In heaven -- not here on earth.

Technically Mark 11 doesn't say "Father's house" anywhere in this passage. But that really isn't the point. The church on Earth is just a copy of the one in heaven.

Heb 9:23; Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24; For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
Heb 9:25; nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own.

Yes to you both. {not that i am the teacher giving out grades!!!}

As Sue pointed out, the Temple is us. That sort of makes it even more interesting. And as B-A-C pointed out, the things we read about are shadows of things to come..... but the substance is Christ.

--------------------------
Jesus said He and His Father would make their abode with us (?) so, do we then take that as the Father's house [being made up of many Members] being us, the many mansions? Could do. Any thoughts?


Bless you ....><>

For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand. I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness.
Psalm 84:10
(yes, please)

One thing I have asked of the LORD, this is what I desire: to dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to gaze on the beauty of the LORD and seek Him in His temple.
Psalm 27:4
 
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Greetings,

popping back to Abraham and Heaven we do have this passage to consider

5 ¶And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him,
6 And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.
7 And Jesus saith unto him, "I will come and heal him."
8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, "Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel."
11 "And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven."
12 "But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, "Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee." And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.

Matthew 8:5-13

some of which resonates with Matthew 25:30 and Matthew 22:13

so, may i ask, what and/or where is 'outer darkness' ? [as well as who gets turfed there]


Bless you ....><>
 
Hi all,
More food for thought (Consider, Butch 141 before you read this)
The Hebrew word Sheol in the Old Testament is translated pit three times
and grave thirty one times.
The very same Hebrew word Sheol is translated thirty one times as Hell
Pray tell me somebody why the translators did this?
No law. No principle. Well why then?

There is NO Scriptural or rational reason for translating Sheol into the
English word Hell at all. NONE.
And there is no reason to use the word Hell in plight of the fact that the
old English meaning of this word has been grossly perverted by the
Christian church beyond recognition over the past four centuries.

Websters Twentieth Century Dictionary: HELL, n (Me, Hellen, AS, hell
Hell, from Helen, to cover to conceal). This interpretation was in the 1600s

Hell in the 21st century
The American Heritage Collegiate Dictionary: The abode of condemned
souls and devils.....the place of eternal punishment for the wicked after death,
presided over by Satan.....a state of separation from God....a place of evil,
misery, discord, or destruction...torment, anguish.

Do you think and believe that these two definitions of Hell have anything
whatsoever in common with each other? Then how is it even in the realm
of possibility that the Christian definition of Hell today can be a translation
for a word that is also to this day, translated three times pit, and thirty one
times grave.

I believe this evil teaching of the church derogates God into an alien monster,
and causes believers by the hundreds of millions to live in fear and mental
turmoil and emotional anguish over presumed lost Love ones who are thought to be suffering day and night in this fabled hellhole of eternal torture.
If there truly is a Christian Hell as taught by fundamentalists preachers,
Then the God of that Hell would be far more evil than all the sinners in the
history of the world combined. There could be any sin or evil more vile and
revolting, or totally insane, than to torture most of humanity in literal fire
for all eternity
It would be the ultimate sin, and its designer and sponsor would be the
ultimate sinner.

But since this doctrine is bogus, a damnable heresy, an invention of
depraved minds, a theological lie.
It thus becomes, THE ULTIMATE BLASPHEMY by those who revel in
and teach this spiritual lie.

GOD IS LOVE, do you believe it.
With Love, Wnl
 
@Wnl
Greetings,

Etymological takes on 'hell' do provide a bigger picture than the definitions you have presented. Many very learned men have considered 'hell' and while on the surface one might get upset that there is no real connection, a dictionary definition on it's own does not really give much justice to the language and it's development. That in itself, [the English language evolving] is quite a study and quite interesting and informative and even a short study can help us to see a bit more than we did before. [like studying anything, of course]
I wouldn't be surprised if today there are a lot of vilifying sentences and judgements directed towards both translators and certain branches of the Church, concerning this word, 'hell'.

When push come to shove, however, the word and concept was more akin to the Hebrew/Jewish thought and teaching on Sheol. It would appear that even those men of old had a certain level of 'blindness' and ignorance about things eternal and spiritual, which i think from memory, the Apostles [at least] testify to. However, that does not automatically deem the more modern view of 'hell' as correct or give excuse or reason to tout our way of seeing it all as better.

A lot of language and thought was influenced by both literature and arts from Europe and from Islamic art and thought about the afterlife and hell etc. Before we throw that out the window, consider how much thought and acceptable thought has changed over the last century let alone the last four or five.
Today we do have a huge amount of resource available to us along with all the past scholars of every age and manuscripts, complete with history's blunders and fantasies. BUT, even today, most are still out on the origin and meaning of 'hell' and to me that is quite fascinating, and being kept adequately in the dark is actually a more wholesome position for most as we do tend to get rather lukewarm once we have the comfort of knowing some things, and that in itself is a dangerous place to be.

I wouldn't go so far as to state it is all wrong and evil, nor get too excited and defending God as if He needs it. There appears to be still much misunderstanding about the LORD. as it was for Job.


Bless you ....><>

It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Hebrews 10:31
 
Young's Literal Translation
'And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.
Matthew 10:28

King James Bible
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
 
Hi brother
Tell me why would anyone want to be adequately in the dark, (that's dead).
Wouldn't we all like to be in the light(the truth) wouldn't we?
Is it not the reason of this forum to discuss issues and maybe find
the truth of any matter.
In my opinion if you actually believe that my God (as in my post 148)
would do such things, you don't know God as LOVE.
I do realise that if I demonstrate scriptural truth upon truth of the matter,
I don't mind if people still hold their position, because that's a reality.
But to sit on the fence, I will spew you out of my mouth, Yuk!
Few are chosen to know the truth.
With Love, Wnl
 
Hi brother
Tell me why would anyone want to be adequately in the dark, (that's dead).
Wouldn't we all like to be in the light(the truth) wouldn't we?
Is it not the reason of this forum to discuss issues and maybe find
the truth of any matter.
In my opinion if you actually believe that my God (as in my post 148)
would do such things, you don't know God as LOVE.
I do realise that if I demonstrate scriptural truth upon truth of the matter,
I don't mind if people still hold their position, because that's a reality.
But to sit on the fence, I will spew you out of my mouth, Yuk!
Few are chosen to know the truth.
With Love, Wnl

Greetings Wnl,

I think you possibly misunderstood me.
It is not about sitting on the fence but become lukewarm through comfort.

Grace and peace to you in Christ Jesus the Lord


Bless you ....><>
 
Hi all,
More food for thought (Consider, Butch 141 before you read this)
The Hebrew word Sheol in the Old Testament is translated pit three times
and grave thirty one times.
The very same Hebrew word Sheol is translated thirty one times as Hell
Pray tell me somebody why the translators did this?
No law. No principle. Well why then?

There is NO Scriptural or rational reason for translating Sheol into the
English word Hell at all. NONE.
And there is no reason to use the word Hell in plight of the fact that the
old English meaning of this word has been grossly perverted by the
Christian church beyond recognition over the past four centuries.

Greetings brother

May I ask what Bible version you are using in your searches, it makes a massive difference, confirming this in a post does help others, see for example the differences below.

e.g. search Sheol OT

KJV - NONE
NKJV - 18 occurrences
NIV - NONE
ASV - 63 occurrences
NJB - 64 occurrences

These differences tell me it is very important, to know which translation is being referred to and to look at the original Greek and Hebrew meaning of The Words in translations.

Shalom
 
I find it interesting to listen to people who espouse that they have spent hours upon hours researching various areas of Scripture -- present Their finds and expect others to adhere to Their perspective as being The truth in that particular matter.

It seems to be especially true in the subject of God's love and what He should or should Not be doing regarding the punishment of Sin. Of the existence of hell -- what its' Really like. That a Loving God would Never sentence anyone to an eternal existence in a horrible place like a lake of fire and brimstone.

The God's Word Does tell us that no one needs To end up there. He / God Has provided a Savior -- the Only Savior from that fate for eternity. All Anyone / Every needs to do is acknowledge their personal need For being saved From that eternal hell. Repent of their sinfulness . Accept Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. and that Nothing we do on our own will either earn our way to heaven or help our cause along. Jesus Christ already paid for our sins with His blood.

On the Flip side of this situation is that satan does not want Anyone to enjoy an eternity with God and born-again believers. He knows he's doomed To the lake of fire and brimstone For Ever. He wants as much company as possible.
Satan's desire is to have people take the horror of hell out of our thoughts. He wants Bible people to find non-existant loopholes in Scripture -- because 'we' Do have our biases. No normal person Wants anyone to end up in hell / lake of fire and brimstone forever. OR better yet -- to make that horror seem okay because all because '"all our friends will be there and without all the Christians around we can Party all we want with nothing bad happening," But no one seems to remember that God is our light. He created the light that we enjoy. Without God -- there is Dark -- Total dark. That is what lake of fire and brimstone will be like.

Book of Revelation Does tell us that the lake of fire and brimstone are only meant for satan, the beast and the false prophet. In God's eyes -- They deserve that punishment for Ever. And honestly -- ''for by grace you are saved through faith" because of God's grace that we Do have heaven as an eternal option. It's where we place our faith that makes the different. Placing our faith in the adequacy of the blood of Jesus Christ --- that's All that God's Word says is needed.

Satan doesn't want anyone to believe that there really is a hell and / or lake of fire and brimstone. And he's going to Laugh at those who 'wake up' and find themselves in a place they were either told didn't exist or that isn't really going to be all that bad. Or a little bit of suffering and then a person will cease to exist. When a person Does realize the Real Truth -- they will be Stuck Forever. Exactly what satan wants. And honestly -- satan probably Won't be laughing -- because he will be suffering -- or he will be laughing At those he's willingly deceived.

Let's Not buy into satan's lies.

Let's Assume that the lake of fire and brimstone Will be forever and that it will be as horrible as it Could be. Make sure we Won't end up there.
 
I find it interesting to listen to people who espouse that they have spent hours upon hours researching various areas of Scripture -- present Their finds and expect others to adhere to Their perspective as being The truth in that particular matter.


There are some that do this Sue but not all.

Satan doesn't want anyone to believe that there really is a hell and / or lake of fire and brimstone.


I am sure all believers will agree with you.

Let's Not buy into satan's lies.

Let's Assume that the lake of fire and brimstone Will be forever and that it will be as horrible as it Could be. Make sure we Won't end up there.


In your first statement you talk about people who espouse that they have spent hours upon hours researching various areas of Scripture -- present Their finds and expect others to adhere to Their perspective as being The truth in that particular matter. Surely in your last statement you are doing similar. Let's Assume that the lake of fire and brimstone Will be forever and that it will be as horrible as it Could be. Make sure we Won't end up there.

As for myself Sue, I cannot assume, I have to know. Surely we must all therefore search the scriptures according to our needs and desires, we are also encouraged to share the Truth together.

I do agree that there are many frustrations in the discussions, and some people do 'appear' to push their findings on others, but it is down to each person what they believe or how many times a point should be made. For me one of the frustrations is that people do not always confirm which Bible translation they are quoting from, although in many situations it may be acceptable, when studies are more in depth it is more important. Post 152 being a typical example.

Shalom.
 
I find it interesting to listen to people who espouse that they have spent hours upon hours researching various areas of Scripture -- present Their finds and expect others to adhere to Their perspective as being The truth in that particular matter.

It seems to be especially true in the subject of God's love and what He should or should Not be doing regarding the punishment of Sin. Of the existence of hell -- what its' Really like. That a Loving God would Never sentence anyone to an eternal existence in a horrible place like a lake of fire and brimstone.

The God's Word Does tell us that no one needs To end up there. He / God Has provided a Savior -- the Only Savior from that fate for eternity. All Anyone / Every needs to do is acknowledge their personal need For being saved From that eternal hell. Repent of their sinfulness . Accept Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. and that Nothing we do on our own will either earn our way to heaven or help our cause along. Jesus Christ already paid for our sins with His blood.

On the Flip side of this situation is that satan does not want Anyone to enjoy an eternity with God and born-again believers. He knows he's doomed To the lake of fire and brimstone For Ever. He wants as much company as possible.
Satan's desire is to have people take the horror of hell out of our thoughts. He wants Bible people to find non-existant loopholes in Scripture -- because 'we' Do have our biases. No normal person Wants anyone to end up in hell / lake of fire and brimstone forever. OR better yet -- to make that horror seem okay because all because '"all our friends will be there and without all the Christians around we can Party all we want with nothing bad happening," But no one seems to remember that God is our light. He created the light that we enjoy. Without God -- there is Dark -- Total dark. That is what lake of fire and brimstone will be like.

Book of Revelation Does tell us that the lake of fire and brimstone are only meant for satan, the beast and the false prophet. In God's eyes -- They deserve that punishment for Ever. And honestly -- ''for by grace you are saved through faith" because of God's grace that we Do have heaven as an eternal option. It's where we place our faith that makes the different. Placing our faith in the adequacy of the blood of Jesus Christ --- that's All that God's Word says is needed.

Satan doesn't want anyone to believe that there really is a hell and / or lake of fire and brimstone. And he's going to Laugh at those who 'wake up' and find themselves in a place they were either told didn't exist or that isn't really going to be all that bad. Or a little bit of suffering and then a person will cease to exist. When a person Does realize the Real Truth -- they will be Stuck Forever. Exactly what satan wants. And honestly -- satan probably Won't be laughing -- because he will be suffering -- or he will be laughing At those he's willingly deceived.

Let's Not buy into satan's lies.

Let's Assume that the lake of fire and brimstone Will be forever and that it will be as horrible as it Could be. Make sure we Won't end up there.
Hnmm... pot and kettle? Why knock someone saying God wouldn't do this or that and then presume what Satan would or wouldn't do. That sounds like the pot calling the kettle black.

Some people spend a tremendous amount of time studying these subjects. They look deeply into things. They study how words are used throughout the Bible. They look at how words were used in secular literature. They look at the historical backgrounds. All of this goes a long way to helping understand what the Bible teaches on a given subject.

Sure, someone can read a verse, interpret it according to their own understanding or beliefs, and claim it says this or that. However, that doesn't necessitate they are correct. The Bible was written to a certain group of people who had certain beliefs and a certain background. These play into how they would understand what was written to them. It behooves us today to understand the texts the way they would have if we desire to have a correct understanding.

As we have been looking at this subject we have found no evidence of a place in the Bible like that which is depicted of the modern English word Hell. We've seen three places translated hell and the Lake of Fire. As pointed out Tartarus is reserved for angles. Hades is the grave. Gehenna and the Lake of Fire are one and the same, and are what Jesus referred to as Gehenna fire. We know from Isaiah 66 that it is dead bodies burning here. We also know from Jeremiah that this place, Gehenna, won't burn forever, as he says one day it will be made Holy to the Lord. So, the bodies won't burn forever.

We also know from looking at the Greek word "aion" that it can't possibly mean forever or eternal as it's often wrongly translated. Jesus spoke of the end of the aion. Something that ends isn't eternal or forever.

We also know from looking at what a man is, that when he dies there is nothing left to live on. So, given what we find in Scripture there is nothing to suggest that it's possible for people to suffer eternal conscious torment
 
Well -- apply that to Heaven / the New Jerusalem -- we Also know about That -- that's a place in the future that we Can enjoy and Can share with all who are willing to listen -- each person either accepts or rejects.

I'm comparing all of 'this' with raising kids. Do we dwell on the negatives and make sure that we know all the dangers of everything that's 'out there' OR do we encourage good positive activities For them As they Do ask questions -- we can acknowledge the evil and the need to avoid it and how To avoid it and that there Are negative consequences involved. And that the negative consequences Can be avoided by making Good , Positive choices. Doing good positives With our kids to re-enforce the Good things.

Actually most Bible versions say pretty much the same thing. The big picture is pretty much the same, God's Word tells us that it's either heaven or hell -- how to end up in either one of them.

@Butch5 -- I really don't know how we can read the same Bible and come up with such different perspectives.

As for myself -- I'm glad that I have the assurance that I won't be waking up to eternity and finding I'm in hell -- because God's Word says that hell Does exist and what our choices are. And we Can avoid the 'eternal conscious torment.'.
 
Well -- apply that to Heaven / the New Jerusalem -- we Also know about That -- that's a place in the future that we Can enjoy and Can share with all who are willing to listen -- each person either accepts or rejects.

I'm comparing all of 'this' with raising kids. Do we dwell on the negatives and make sure that we know all the dangers of everything that's 'out there' OR do we encourage good positive activities For them As they Do ask questions -- we can acknowledge the evil and the need to avoid it and how To avoid it and that there Are negative consequences involved. And that the negative consequences Can be avoided by making Good , Positive choices. Doing good positives With our kids to re-enforce the Good things.

Actually most Bible versions say pretty much the same thing. The big picture is pretty much the same, God's Word tells us that it's either heaven or hell -- how to end up in either one of them.

@Butch5 -- I really don't know how we can read the same Bible and come up with such different perspectives.

As for myself -- I'm glad that I have the assurance that I won't be waking up to eternity and finding I'm in hell -- because God's Word says that hell Does exist and what our choices are. And we Can avoid the 'eternal conscious torment.'.
I can tell you exactly how we read the same Bible and come to such different conclusions. It's the same way a creation scientist and an evolutionary scientist look at the same evidence and come to completely different conclusions. The answer is Presuppositions. It's the things we presupposed are true when we come to the text. You presuppose that a person can live apart form the body. I don't. These presuppositions alone set us on vastly different courses. That is why I've brought up the question of what a man is and what happens to him when he dies. If my presupposition is correct and a man cannot live apart from the body then he doesn't continue to exist after he dies. I have shown this from Scripture. Your presupposition is that man lives on after after the body dies. I've yet to see anyone make this case from Scripture.

People claim that man has an immortal soul. Scripture refutes this. Paul said that the Father alone has immortality. That means that no one apart from God lives forever. Paul also tells us that God gives life, or is going life, to all things. Job tells us that if God retrieved His breath all flesh would die. So, that means that everything that is alive is being kept alive by God. Since no one is immortal and can only live if God gives them life the only way a person could suffer eternally is if God kept them alive. We have to question any doctrine that would impugn God's character and the Eternal Conscious Torment doctrien certainly impugns God's character.

Getting back to the subject of presuppositions. These are the filters through which we interpret the texts. These are what guide us to our understanding. When I held the same presuppositions that you do, and I did, I came to the same conclusions that you have. However, those conclusions had problems. For instance, if eternity in hell was the end of the wicked, why did Jesus give the contrast of eternal life and perishing? Why did Paul say the wages of sin is death rather than saying the wages of sin is eternal conscious torment? Why did God say through Ezekiel, 'the soul that sins shall die' instead of saying the soul that sins would suffer eternal conscious torment? These are the serious questions we have to ask. If we accept that the Scriptures are without error, I do, then maybe we need to reconsider our presuppositions because they are leading us to a conclusion that runs counter to what the Scriptures say.

You see, the reason our perspectives are different is because I changed my presuppositions to align with what I found in Scripture and let go of what I was taught the Bible said. When the Bible says that man is dust, I beleive that man is dust, not a ghost or spirit, but dust. I don't make man. Into something he's not. God told Adam if he ate from the Tree of Knowledge he would die. I believe that. God didn't tell Adam if he ate from the tree his body would die but he'd continue on. After Adam ate, God said to him that he would die. He said to Adam you are dust and to dust you shall return. He didn't say your body is dust and to dust it shall return, but you will continue on. You see, whether people realize it or not. Those who hold the immortal soul position have to read those verses to say that Adam's body died but Adam didnt. However, God said that Adam would die.

So our presuppositions affect how we read the Scriptures. If a person believes in the immortal soul doctrine they cannot take those passages at face value. I can because I changed my presuppositions to match what God said to Adam.
 
I would submit that the New Jerusalem is not Heaven, but rather the city of Jerusalem restored.
 
I would submit that the New Jerusalem is not Heaven, but rather the city of Jerusalem restored.


Greetings brother

The New Jerusalem that 'comes down' from Heaven, sizes and description given in scripture, it also includes, the Tree of Life, one river instead of two like in Eden, but with trees on either side of the river that bear fruit, each one, twelve fruits over twelve months.

The New Jerusalem 'comes down' from Heaven 'onto earth' when Christ has made all things new.

Emmanuel God with us.
 
I can tell you exactly how we read the same Bible and come to such different conclusions. It's the same way a creation scientist and an evolutionary scientist look at the same evidence and come to completely different conclusions. The answer is Presuppositions. It's the things we presupposed are true when we come to the text. You presuppose that a person can live apart form the body. I don't. These presuppositions alone set us on vastly different courses. That is why I've brought up the question of what a man is and what happens to him when he dies. If my presupposition is correct and a man cannot live apart from the body then he doesn't continue to exist after he dies. I have shown this from Scripture. Your presupposition is that man lives on after after the body dies. I've yet to see anyone make this case from Scripture.

People claim that man has an immortal soul. Scripture refutes this. Paul said that the Father alone has immortality. That means that no one apart from God lives forever. Paul also tells us that God gives life, or is going life, to all things. Job tells us that if God retrieved His breath all flesh would die. So, that means that everything that is alive is being kept alive by God. Since no one is immortal and can only live if God gives them life the only way a person could suffer eternally is if God kept them alive. We have to question any doctrine that would impugn God's character and the Eternal Conscious Torment doctrien certainly impugns God's character.

Getting back to the subject of presuppositions. These are the filters through which we interpret the texts. These are what guide us to our understanding. When I held the same presuppositions that you do, and I did, I came to the same conclusions that you have. However, those conclusions had problems. For instance, if eternity in hell was the end of the wicked, why did Jesus give the contrast of eternal life and perishing? Why did Paul say the wages of sin is death rather than saying the wages of sin is eternal conscious torment? Why did God say through Ezekiel, 'the soul that sins shall die' instead of saying the soul that sins would suffer eternal conscious torment? These are the serious questions we have to ask. If we accept that the Scriptures are without error, I do, then maybe we need to reconsider our presuppositions because they are leading us to a conclusion that runs counter to what the Scriptures say.

You see, the reason our perspectives are different is because I changed my presuppositions to align with what I found in Scripture and let go of what I was taught the Bible said. When the Bible says that man is dust, I beleive that man is dust, not a ghost or spirit, but dust. I don't make man. Into something he's not. God told Adam if he ate from the Tree of Knowledge he would die. I believe that. God didn't tell Adam if he ate from the tree his body would die but he'd continue on. After Adam ate, God said to him that he would die. He said to Adam you are dust and to dust you shall return. He didn't say your body is dust and to dust it shall return, but you will continue on. You see, whether people realize it or not. Those who hold the immortal soul position have to read those verses to say that Adam's body died but Adam didnt. However, God said that Adam would die.

So our presuppositions affect how we read the Scriptures. If a person believes in the immortal soul doctrine they cannot take those passages at face value. I can because I changed my presuppositions to match what God said to Adam.


I do agree with a lot of what you have put here.

Presuppositions not only affect our thoughts about things, they also mould our thoughts to fit our thinking, presuppositions come from many sources, including experiences in life, what we are told or have heard from others, but also from patterns created and followed in denominations.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 (NKJV)
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.


We all accept scripture as The Truth in the Word, but many times reproof and correction for instruction in righteousness, from other brothers and sisters, is not graciously accepted but taking in a conflicting manner. We are to Love one another, but what happens to that love when our faith and beliefs are challenged, that love seems to disappear and is dealt with like salt rubbed into an open wound.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 (NIV2011)
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.


2 Timothy 3:16-17 (NJB)
All scripture is inspired by God and useful for refuting error, for guiding people's lives and teaching them to be upright.
This is how someone who is dedicated to God becomes fully equipped and ready for any good work.


All scripture is God breathed, and is inspired by Him, for teaching, refuting error, correcting presuppositions and wrong thinking, so that we may be good servants, obedient children of God, fully equipped to teach others in love and bring Glory to God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
 
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