Do we have to go to church?

[brodav9]

true church helps.

I can see that you are in a trial of faith. You are concerned about the leading of the Holy Spirit. in James 1:5 it says if any of you lack wisdom let them ask of God who gives to all men liberally and upbraideth not and it shall be given them. who does it say to ask? God of coarse. Your whole life depends on the decisions you make. without the Holy Spirit we must make our own decisions. I will help you here, don't do anything!!!! it is not up to you. do you have faith? do you seek to pray and get wisdom? I guarantee you if God tells you where to go and you say yes Lord you are in the position to receive. if you are not willing to obey if he tells you he will with hold his answer. pray father in Jesus name lead me to the place ( fellowship of true beleivers could be a home) you want me to go. I am willing to wait for your wonderful guidance and will wait on you only to reveal. in the waiting time stay in the word and fellowship on the forums. read the scriptures that speak about leading and guiding. example the steps of the righteous are ordered of the Lord. Ps. 37:23. Jesus really cares that his sheep are fed and that is fed the truth. praise him for the answer continually. for some above average bible studies go to Dennis Schmidt bible papers, you will get stuffed with lots of sound bible teaching. God bless,

 

[SpiritLedEd]

there are many ways for this to happen, it doesn't need to be connected with any kind of liturgy.

Jiggy:

Acts 4 :6-11, 5:7-14, 15:2-4. and 19:1-8

These verses tell me that there definitely is organized worship occuring 24/7 in heaven and will be going on there for all eternity. Personal worship is not mentioned in these chapters. Why is this so if, as you claim, organized group worship isn't necessary?

SLE

 

[spitnot]

walking with Christ for 3 years, the church and fellowship of believers has been my "comfort zone." i can say that church is an essential part for a believer (especially for a baby in the faith) to grow, to be edified, to be encouraged.

but there's just a time that the Spirit himself will take us out of our comfort zones and bring us to a "desert", to be tested, to be molded. and in that time, it's just you and the Lord. After graduating in college, i moved back to my hometown where i don't have a church to go to. A month and a half being away from the fellowship was really a hard time for me. but then i was rebuked by the Lord, it was because i seem to rely on the presence of my fellow believers as a source of encouragement and motivation to stay focus in my faith. yes, it helps a lot and it's really a very good thing, but wisdom says... and i was reminded of Jesus when He quoted Deuteronomy 8:3 to bring the point that man should depend in the very word of God to continue living. fellowship with other believers comes secondary but it is likewise necessary.

brother, to sum up my answer to the question "do we have to go to church?"
yes, i personally believe. because that's the purpose why the church was born (day of Pentecost). an analogy, Jesus is the Shepherd and we are the sheep, the shepherd gathers His flock together to feed them. but the nourishment of each depends individually in their relationship with the Shepherd. the gathering of the flock is that they may move and work as one body wherever the Shepherd will lead them.

i hope this comment helps. Chris bless everyone!

 

[jiggyfly]

Jiggy:

Acts 4 :6-11, 5:7-14, 15:2-4. and 19:1-8

These verses tell me that there definitely is organized worship occuring 24/7 in heaven and will be going on there for all eternity. Personal worship is not mentioned in these chapters. Why is this so if, as you claim, organized group worship isn't necessary?

SLE

Sorry SLE but I didn't see any reference to the worship in heaven in any of the scriptures you posted nor did I see any organized group worship mentioned, maybe you can elaborate some. If organized group worship is necessary what did Paul do in Arabia for three years? Wonder how John made it on Patmos for a year? I am not against fellowship or group worship as long as it is in Spirit and Truth but to say that everyone needs to participate in organized religious liturgy in order to practice fellowship and group worship is just ludicrous.

 

[Coconut]

Acts 4 :6-11, 5:7-14, 15:2-4. and 19:1-8

These verses tell me that there definitely is organized worship occuring 24/7 in heaven and will be going on there for all eternity. Personal worship is not mentioned in these chapters. Why is this so if, as you claim, organized group worship isn't necessary?

SLE

SLE, I scanned those references..and I have to ask...how does a business meeting, a collection for the poor, another business meeting, and a baptism tell you there is organized worship in Heaven, thus proving organized worship is necessary on earth?

I`m puzzled ...

 

[Hisalone]

brodav9 and spitnot

Thank you both for your words of encouragement. Very uplifting.

SLE, I kinda have the same questions as jiggyfly and Coconut. As for organized group worship and the Acts 5 reference, if you read a little past, whatever worship might have been going on was anything but organized. As for the other references, one does not need to read too much into it to know that man did not set a timetable for some of these events, but rather God by the power of the Holy Ghost brought about these occurences, not according to the will of man, or man's order. That we can certainly agree upon.

Personal worship is not mentioned in these chapters

What are you suggesting with this idea? If you would like some references to personal worship, I would suggest opening up the book of Psalms. I doesn't get any more personal or blatant than that. But that you already know, which has me puzzled considering the aforementioned statement.

In Christ

Hisalone

 

[brodav9]

worship continual

praise and worship are very closely related. in Hebrews 13:15 by him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise continually, that is the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name. it is not common to see people worship and praise God, they will worship at a football game. In Alabama if you root for Alabama team in Auburn you might not want to be alone there has been tremendous violence after the games. why we worship God is because in Ps. 16:11 it brings us into his presence, and in his presence there is fullness of joy. other religions of the world are required to worship their god. we get the priviledge to do it. the more we love him the more we thank him and say how great he is. it is best to know him first before we preach his gospel. the gospel is tidings of great joy I worship and adore you Jesus for your abundant blessings to me today.

 

[cerebus]

baptism:

for salvation from the world:

1 Pet 3:20**Who had formerly disobeyed when the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared; entering into which, a few, that is, eight souls, were brought safely through by water.
3:21**Which water, as the antitype, also now saves you, that is, baptism, not a putting away of the filth of the flesh but the appeal of a good conscience unto God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

for entering into the Body of Christ and the drinking of the one Spirit

1 Cor 12:13**For also in one Spirit we were all baptized into one Body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and were all given to drink one Spirit.

For identification in the common faith of all believers

Eph 4:5**One Lord, one faith, one baptism;

For experiencing God's full salvation:

Mark 16:16**He who believes and is baptized shall be saved, but he who does not believe shall be condemned.

For receiving the Holy Spirit

Acts 19:2**And he said to them, Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed? And they said to him, On the contrary, we did not even hear whether there is a Holy Spirit.
19:3**And he said, Into what then were you baptized? And they said, Into John's baptism.
19:4**And Paul said, John baptized with a baptism of repentance, telling the people that they should believe into the One coming after him, that is, into Jesus.
19:5**And when they heard this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.
19:6**And when Paul laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.

There are many more purposes for baptism than just the remission of sins ushalk.

 

[cerebus]

^sorry for OT post above...if it's inappropriate feel free to remove it .


John may have been alone on Patmos (actually I'm not sure that he was - I've read otherwise somewhere but I might be wrong) but he wrote the epistles to the seven churches in Asia, concrete, specific entities. Do you really imagine that if he had not been in exile that he would still have abstained from meeting? If he had been in Ephesus, Smyrna etc he would have been in fellowship with the believers in that region - the local churches. The first vision he saw was of the seven golden lampstands which were the seven churches. In fact the vision of Revelation was given to the churches, not to John as an individual:

Rev 1:11**Saying, What you see write in a scroll and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamos and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.

The majority of Paul's epistles (Romans, 1&2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1&2 Thessalonians) were written to churches rather than individuals - again, definite gatherings of believers full of personal references (see Romans 16).

In Matt 18:17, the Lord said that we should tell our complaints to the church - not just My church in the unspecific, universal sense of Matt 16:18 but the church, in the most practical sense. How can you take a grievance to some nebulous entity that only exists in your heart?

The Christian life and the church life are inseparable in the New Testament. There may be instances of isolation as in the case of John or Paul in prison, but they are artificial rather than chosen. In fact Paul in prison said "when you and my spirit are gathered", "I live if you stand firm in the Lord", "this shall turn out to my salvation through your petition and the bountiful supply"... indicating that even in prison he was in constant dependence and oneness with the churches.

 

[jiggyfly]

^sorry for OT post above...if it's inappropriate feel free to remove it .


John may have been alone on Patmos (actually I'm not sure that he was - I've read otherwise somewhere but I might be wrong) but he wrote the epistles to the seven churches in Asia, concrete, specific entities. Do you really imagine that if he had not been in exile that he would still have abstained from meeting? If he had been in Ephesus, Smyrna etc he would have been in fellowship with the believers in that region - the local churches. The first vision he saw was of the seven golden lampstands which were the seven churches. In fact the vision of Revelation was given to the churches, not to John as an individual:


The majority of Paul's epistles (Romans, 1&2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1&2 Thessalonians) were written to churches rather than individuals - again, definite gatherings of believers full of personal references (see Romans 16).

In Matt 18:17, the Lord said that we should tell our complaints to the church - not just My church in the unspecific, universal sense of Matt 16:18 but the church, in the most practical sense. How can you take a grievance to some nebulous entity that only exists in your heart?

The Christian life and the church life are inseparable in the New Testament. There may be instances of isolation as in the case of John or Paul in prison, but they are artificial rather than chosen. In fact Paul in prison said "when you and my spirit are gathered", "I live if you stand firm in the Lord", "this shall turn out to my salvation through your petition and the bountiful supply"... indicating that even in prison he was in constant dependence and oneness with the churches.

I totally agree with this part of your post ( I bolded it) They are one in the same if when you refer to the Christian life you are referring to a life in Christ. Paul chose to go to Arabia for 3 years and there is no recorded church in Arabia at that time.

Do you think the ekklesia gathered together in the same manner that is common practice today? I posted earlier about the error in translating ekklesia as church and even more today as church has taken on yet a different meaning.

Bottom line is the unity of the body of Christ is of a spiritual nature and a person's connection with Christ and Him alone. Paul made this very clear and you quoted it yourself.

Paul in prison said "when you and my spirit are gathered", "I live if you stand firm in the Lord", "this shall turn out to my salvation through your petition and the bountiful supply"..

Notice what Paul said , "if you stand firm in the Lord" not if you stand firmly together.

1Corinthians 5:3&4
3 Even though I am not there with you in person, I am with you in the Spirit.* Concerning the one who has done this, I have already passed judgment 4 in the name of the Lord Jesus. You are to call a meeting of the church,* and I will be there in spirit, and the power of the Lord Jesus will be with you as you meet.

There are a couple of things here concerning this topic. One, is that Paul said he would be there in spirit and secondly if the church was already having regularly scheduled organized meetings why would Paul instruct them to call a meeting? Why not just wait until Wednesday night or Sunday?

IMO it is very backwards, many think that you develop a good relationship with Christ by fellowshipping with other Christians. But the truth is we develop good relationships with each other by fellowshipping with Christ.

 

[cerebus]

Well, okay let's see.

Paul's journeys to Arabia - and in fact nearly everywhere he went - had one goal and purpose - to spread the gospel as a sent apostle, which issued in the establishing of churches. That of course is different - but he went in full identification with the Body of Christ, sent out by the churches. Or he would visit a church to counter a heresy that threatened to divide it. In either case, his ministry was governed by the principle of the church.


No I don't believe that they gathered together in the same way as today's Christianity, not by any stretch. But that doesn't mean that God doesn't desire to have the proper church life, or that we can dispense with the practice of meeting altogether in favor of a fundamentally individualistic Christian life. The life of Christ is in His Body (Eph 1:22 - "...over all things to the church, which is His Body, the fullness of the one who fills all in all").

The unity of the Body is spiritual but it must also be practical and experiential, otherwise it is rendered meaningless. Fellowship is one practical aspect and principle of the Body for instance.

There is no indication that he asked them to meet specially. In Acts they met 'day by day from house to house'.

 

[Br. Bear]

Bond of Peace

Dear brothers and sister in Jesus Christ, I urge you to be one in Him, as fellow believers in Him.

Be no longer divided, but be ye rather of one accord, for there is one body of which Christ is the Head, the Church, and ye are all members of it.

Abide in Him, and follow Him. Love one another as He loves you, forbearing and forgiving one another, with all humility and patience, and beware of false doctrine, but remember love.
..................................................................>

Dear Hisalone,

You started this thread, and so I reply to you. May the Lord give us both wisdom as we seek Him in all things.

Let me start by saying that the study of Greek or Hebrew can not make you a Christian, nor understand the will of God, nor His truth which was revealed to you when you believed, any more than studying German makes me a German as I live in a far away land and have never been to Germany.
The point here is that to be one with God, we must be engrafted into Him by believing, by faith (ye are saved by grace) in Jesus Christ the Lord. It is then that we become members of the Church.
In the early Church, in the days of the Apostles, there were Churches at different places. These were not denominations, but, the body of believers in that area/town/city/region. One Church with one Head, Jesus Christ the Lord.

Now, you ask about you going to church. Well, as a Christian, you are a member of the Church..... so, do you go to church? I think the answer you are looking for is not in Greek nor Hebrew, nor peoples faint and often incorrect version of the Word, but something you need to understand as a fundamental truth. (this is not fundamentalism, by the way) This truth is that you are a member of the Church, as all who believe and are members of His body are.

So, do you go to church is really a pointless question, meaning that your inclusion of going somewhere is misleading to you, as you are already there.

However, there is the place of meeting that has been well mentioned here in answers you have been given.

To begin with, on this point, for those who think they know better than others, please be aware that you are mostly mislead by man's interpretation, and you have mis-read the whole letter to people like the Hebrews, and others, where Paul was addressing a certain group of believers whose name is found in the letter to the Hebrews. They met on Festivals to keep certain ceremonies, and the study of words in other languages doesn't really make this clear. We need to read it all, and ask for understanding from the Author of the Bible. It is easy to add to the Word to fit ideas into it. But, we miss the point.... or is it, miss the mark....sin.

One part that has been left out so far, is the need for accountability.... to one another.
I can write all sorts of nice things here, and be a totally un-Christian offline. Nothing replaces in entirety, meeting in person with other believers. It is rather hard to anoint my sick sister or brother with oil over the internet. Same goes for laying on of hands. Also breaking bread and sharing the cup. Singing too is a bit tricky online, together (something Chad might like to work on...
Speaking of Chad, and I hope you don't mind, brother, I ask all members to have respect to whom God has chosen to put this online forum together, and who spends many many hours keeping it together, for you, as a place of online fellowship..... this is a Scriptural precept as far as an online fellowship can be alluded to as having any Scriptural stand.... so beware lest you get haughty and clever.... Paul had to warn folks back then as to how they treated those in positions of authority that God had organised..... and if you don't think that this is the case here at Talk Jesus, then what on earth are you doing here? Manners please..everyone!)
If anyone would like to reply to this... please DO NOT REPLY HERE ON THIS THREAD...PM me if you must.... otherwise, just take heed of what is written, thank you.

So, I read you are presently thinking about whether you should continue to 'go to church', Hisalone. Again, you are part of Church.... wherever you go...never forget that! There is so much in the Bible about meeting together. It is vital to the Body. Vital.
As I sought the Lord before answering, I believe He urged me to say this...
You, Hisalone, have been fed and helped in your place/group/church fellowship.... as you said.... and now have an urge to go.... but where? Go to the people in the Church and tell them this, asking for prayer as to if you ought be sent somewhere as is Scriptural. You are now no longer wanting to get milk... ie... you have grown and are now ready to go into service.
This does not mean you need to stop attending a regular fellowship... but, you might just be sent somewhere where you wish you had some!
Having time alone from others for a season is OK.... but do not neglect the Body you are part of.... you can not say you have no need of it.... and visa-versa.
For all who glory in self somewhere alone, go overseas to places where fellowshipping is outlawed and punished and see how you like it. Let me know when you get back.

Yes, the 'west' was built on church buildings and congregations and church services.... and now they are turning into food and alcohol and gambling places.
Wouldn't it be nice to see a reversal of this? Places set aside for fellowship where Jesus is the attraction and bond of love that brings people there?
What about speaking in tongues for you 'pentecostal' hermits? I think my english reading mentions about interpretation of tongues and if someone enters and doesn't understand..... well, where were they to enter? A gap between the trees in the park. Be real all you non-building experts... when it snows, or rains, do you go into a building. If there was trouble, and you had a choice of buildings to turn to, say a hotel, a bank or a church, which would you tend to go to to meet brothers or sisters to help you? I know there are rats and spiders in every building, but do not get so anti-buildings as to stumble on your own actions.
The concordances and versions of the Bible, the Greek and Hebrew books as well, were written by church going men... so remember that Jesus is not really interested in your double minded nonsense.

Hisalone, you attend a church, so seek counsel from them who have kept you so far.

We are living stones, in God's Temple not made with hands..... but remember the 'we' bit.... members of His body...we need each other.... and really need each other....or else, how can we keep His commandment to love one another?

Hope this helps.

Bless you ...><>

Br. Bear

 

[spitnot]

One part that has been left out so far, is the need for accountability.... to one another.
I can write all sorts of nice things here, and be a totally un-Christian offline. Nothing replaces in entirety, meeting in person with other believers. It is rather hard to anoint my sick sister or brother with oil over the internet. Same goes for laying on of hands. Also breaking bread and sharing the cup.

Br. Bear

Amen! praise Jesus, you nailed it there Br. Bear. what can i write except to repeat; accountability, laying on of hands and breaking bread and sharing the cup. encouragement would better if we see and talk face to face.

there are a lot more factors actualy.

 

[Richie]

Jiggy:

Acts 4 :6-11, 5:7-14, 15:2-4. and 19:1-8

These verses tell me that there definitely is organized worship occuring 24/7 in heaven and will be going on there for all eternity. Personal worship is not mentioned in these chapters. Why is this so if, as you claim, organized group worship isn't necessary?

SLE

Brother SLE,

I do agree with the fact that there is organised worship occuring 24/7 in heaven, but I think there is a small mistake in the verses you posted. The chapters and verses are absolutely correct, but I think it is not the book of Acts. I think it should be the book of Revelation. Please don't mind.

God bless you.

 

[Hisalone]

Br. Bear wrote:

So, I read you are presently thinking about whether you should continue to 'go to church', Hisalone. Again, you are part of Church.... wherever you go...never forget that! There is so much in the Bible about meeting together. It is vital to the Body. Vital.
As I sought the Lord before answering, I believe He urged me to say this...
You, Hisalone, have been fed and helped in your place/group/church fellowship.... as you said.... and now have an urge to go.... but where? Go to the people in the Church and tell them this, asking for prayer as to if you ought be sent somewhere as is Scriptural. You are now no longer wanting to get milk... ie... you have grown and are now ready to go into service.
This does not mean you need to stop attending a regular fellowship... but, you might just be sent somewhere where you wish you had some!
Having time alone from others for a season is OK.... but do not neglect the Body you are part of.... you can not say you have no need of it.... and visa-versa.
For all who glory in self somewhere alone, go overseas to places where fellowshipping is outlawed and punished and see how you like it. Let me know when you get back.

Yes, the 'west' was built on church buildings and congregations and church services.... and now they are turning into food and alcohol and gambling places.
Wouldn't it be nice to see a reversal of this? Places set aside for fellowship where Jesus is the attraction and bond of love that brings people there?
What about speaking in tongues for you 'pentecostal' hermits? I think my english reading mentions about interpretation of tongues and if someone enters and doesn't understand..... well, where were they to enter? A gap between the trees in the park. Be real all you non-building experts... when it snows, or rains, do you go into a building. If there was trouble, and you had a choice of buildings to turn to, say a hotel, a bank or a church, which would you tend to go to to meet brothers or sisters to help you? I know there are rats and spiders in every building, but do not get so anti-buildings as to stumble on your own actions.
The concordances and versions of the Bible, the Greek and Hebrew books as well, were written by church going men... so remember that Jesus is not really interested in your double minded nonsense.

Hisalone, you attend a church, so seek counsel from them who have kept you so far.

We are living stones, in God's Temple not made with hands..... but remember the 'we' bit.... members of His body...we need each other.... and really need each other....or else, how can we keep His commandment to love one another?

Hope this helps.

Bless you ...><>

Br. Bear

Brother, you have spoken a word of prophecy into my life by way of this post. Everything you said witneseed with the Spirit in me and it is now more clear than ever what I must do. Thank you for taking the time to seek counsel from the Lord in prayer and giving me this.

May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost be with you. Amen.

Hisalone

 

[Truedawn]

Do we have to go to church? Interesting question. A good question to go with that is: why am I asking if I have to go to church? What's going on in my heart?

I am glad to be able to go to church. To have the freedom to worship, study and share with fellow believers. When I was a child and when I went my husband's church for a season (first year that we were married) - I did not enjoy going all the time. I found that it was the people/pastor not sharing the love or sometimes grace of Jesus. Instead the first was full of "socializing" and the second "LAWs" Being blessed to attend a church that spreads the Word of God is a sweet blessing. To be able to Worship the Lord in Spirit and Truth - the best! When looking for a church my husband and I look for one that Worship and Teaching is in Spirit and Truth. And one that has a heart for the world (missions). We've found that if the church is, then the focus is on Jesus and reaching the lost and growing up the saved.

My advice? None really. Just keep seeking Jesus - if your are really seeking Him with your whole heart - I believe that He will tell you.

************************************************************

I just wrote the above and then saw yours above... I thought that I read the whole thing first must have missed it or we posted at the same time. Disregard mine as needed. Follow Jesus, He'll lead you.

 

[byhisgrace]

we are all part of the body of Christ, we are not singly the whole body of Christ.

Imo: I need the other parts with me to make us the whole body. A little toe...tho important can't do much by itself.
I don't know tho...this thread could very easily confuse people...ugghh.
Br.Bear...good helping shed light.

 

[cerebus]

The church is not a building though. It is the body of believers on earth, the earthly representation of the universal Body of Christ. The church meetings in Acts took place inside people's homes, in prison or even in a barn. When Paul says 'if a person enters'...he isn't necessarily talking about a specific consecrated 'church building', because we can't see any evidence that the early believers had those.

byhisgrace - that's right, the believers are members one of another. If one suffers all suffer, if one rejoices all rejoice. We are interdependent upon one another. That is God's intention and heart's desire.

 

[naomigenesis]

hihi, to me, going to church is like taking an exam. Through all the bible studies and daily devotions we are able to enrich ourselves. But by going to church, we are able to mingle with other Christians and share about their experiences from their daily devotions. Each one of us are different, hence God speak to each one of us differently. Through weekly sharing, we can definately learn more about our loving God and will love Him more.

 

[Richie]

Dear Hisalone,

I already replied to you, but I think it is better to add a poll to this thread and see how people vote for this.

God bless you.