Another Jesus?

[Redeemer32]

Catholic Church

I was born a Catholic and I became born again July 17 2008. I always loved Jesus Christ even as a catholic. I switched religions because I am very passionate about God and feel the rules and regulations remind me of the people who crucified Jesus. I know allot of Catholic people have my same passion and are true believers. Any teaching of Jesus is sacred. As it says so in the bible. We are free to chose our love for Jesus. Their are many people in the Catholic religion who are true to the lords heart.

One of the reasons why I haven't went back to church recently is because they had a sermon talking about how bad the Catholic religion is and it turned me off, I am their to learn about Jesus and help myself become a stronger Christian. The catholic religion is still teaching the love for Jesus. The rules and regulations are bogus, but the lord states that if you are teaching his word, you will be held more accountable for your actions. Its Gods job to judge not ours.

Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?
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[ushalk]

redeemer 32, i agree that you should go to church to learn more about jesus. however the problem in many churches is that they have taken jesus out of the church buildings.

i am also sorry to report to you that if we are going to a church building in todays age then there is about an 85% chance that the truth is not spoken. this is what you have to be careful of. now concerning the catholic church, i am sorry to inform you that the church has been false since its start. i think the truth in the history and the present compared to the bible and what the bible truly states shows it to be a false religion.

you may get upset with this and i hate having to be the bear of bad news. but you have got to know the truth and see the truth. i am not saying that the catholic church has not done good things. but the pope is not god and mary isnt the one that died on the cross. the priests or fathers can not take away your sins.

spirit led ed, i agree that i have never heard a leader in the catholic church state any such thing. but i have heard it from more than one member of the catholic church.

 

[SpiritLedEd]

The catholic religion is still teaching the love for Jesus. The rules and regulations are bogus, but the lord states that if you are teaching his word, you will be held more accountable for your actions. Its Gods job to judge not ours.

We need to remember that there are two definitions for the verb "judge" and they are equally important. To judge in terms of condemning is wrong. Condemnation is indeed God's job. However, to judge in terms of investigating (testing)and assessing a theology or teaching is not only not wrong, we are told in Scripture to do it, to test the things we are taught - "Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is...." (Ro 12:2) As my pastor is fond of saying, "Christianity is NOT a religion where you are required to check your brain at the door."

SLE

 

[louis]

"Christianity is NOT a religion where you are required to check your brain at the door."

SLE

Well said, SLE. In fact, I believe that Christianity is perhaps the ONE religion where followers are told to THINK."

 

[Coconut]

I was born a Catholic and I became born again July 17 2008. I always loved Jesus Christ even as a catholic. I switched religions because I am very passionate about God and feel the rules and regulations remind me of the people who crucified Jesus. I know allot of Catholic people have my same passion and are true believers. Any teaching of Jesus is sacred. As it says so in the bible. We are free to chose our love for Jesus. Their are many people in the Catholic religion who are true to the lords heart.

One of the reasons why I haven't went back to church recently is because they had a sermon talking about how bad the Catholic religion is and it turned me off, I am their to learn about Jesus and help myself become a stronger Christian. The catholic religion is still teaching the love for Jesus. The rules and regulations are bogus, but the lord states that if you are teaching his word, you will be held more accountable for your actions. Its Gods job to judge not ours.

Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?
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Redeemer, I realize you are offended (and an offended man is harder to win than a strong city) but please allow me to give you some food for thought. Do you realize if it were not for the reformers "speaking out against the "catholic religion" you would not have any other 'church' to go to? Did they not by their own blood sweat and tears, heaping much condemnation upon themselves, and counting it as nothing, many being burned at the stake, and giving their very lives, sacrifice so, that we could hold the true gospel message Christ taught in our hands? (read the Fox book of Martyrs) Yet you are 'turned off' by this same message?

I have a very poor memory, so I can barely quote myself, let alone others, yet I have spent countless hours studying christian history, and the catholic church in comparison to scripture. I would not (as likely most teachers here would not) have posted this article, if I were not able to say it is truth at the very core. Indeed, it only takes opening the scripture, with an open heart to the message of Christ, to understand what is the root of the problem with most religions.

My brother, Jesus said: And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? (Luke 6:46) I ask this question of any member of any religion that presumably preaches Christ, yet distorts his message of Salvation. You cannot be "true to the Lords heart" and ignore his own Word. You cannot plant your feet on two roads, you cannot enter two doors, you cannot call Him Lord and Master, yet allow mens religions to dictate how you will serve Him. If you do, you have believed another gospel, and you serve another Jesus, than the one Scripture reveals. (2Co 11:4 )

Any religion or belief system that teaches Christ AND...is teaching a lie.
And I mean ANY religion. Does a lie come from the Father GOD, or does it come from the Father of lies? If Satan be the author of the lie, why would you or I defend it? Because we love those who are being deceived too much to tell them the truth, or because even if we tell them the truth, and they reject it, we think its alright as long as they still believe in Christ? Nay. Can we stand upon the Word of God and draw such conclusions? Let us see:

Mar 7:6 And Jesus said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written, "'This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.' You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men." And he said to them, "You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition!"


You need to look into the Word of God, and your own heart, and ask yourself the same hard questions, all who would be true followers of Christ have to ask themselves. What will I do with the truth that has been revealed to me?


Mat 10:37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.


1Jn 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.

 

[jiggyfly]

Well said, SLE. In fact, I believe that Christianity is perhaps the ONE religion where followers are told to THINK."

Isaiah 1:18
Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Matthew 3:1&2
1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, 2 and saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

The Greek word metanoeo in Matthew 3:2 translated as repent, literally means to change the way you think. I am not advocating gnosticism but correct thinking is needful in maturing spiritually. In light of this why do some clergy within the religious system make one feel in error for questioning certain religious teachings and traditions?

 

[mikemattice]

faith works

Despite what anyone may say, salvation comes only from faith in Christ, and not from works of any kind. Consider the following passage, which is used by the RCC to justify the notion of salvation by faith and works:

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. (James 2:26)​

The meaning of this passage is very simple. If any faith does not produce good works, then it is dead (i.e. not true faith), for true faith produces good works. Good works do not procure salvation, but salvation produces good works. Nowhere does this passage imply that works are necessary for salvation. =)

Our faith is, at the core, the belief/hope that Jesus' death sufficiently paid the penalty for our sins; and His resurrection exemplifies our restored relationship with God the Father. ANY relationship changes us. If there is no change, there is no real relationship (whether with God or people). As we grow in our relationship with our heavenly Father, we will (as much as we are willing) progressively take on a family resemblance. Our words, actions, and thoughts will reflect the relationship we have with God. If we act, speak, or think contrary to the new nature God gives us, then we are limiting our relationship. If our lives are not living proof of the gospel (which IS the power of God -Romans 1:16), then our faith has no power, and is dead (lifeless).

 

[mikemattice]

light in the darkness

redeemer 32, i agree that you should go to church to learn more about jesus. however the problem in many churches is that they have taken jesus out of the church buildings.

i am also sorry to report to you that if we are going to a church building in todays age then there is about an 85% chance that the truth is not spoken. this is what you have to be careful of. now concerning the catholic church, i am sorry to inform you that the church has been false since its start. i think the truth in the history and the present compared to the bible and what the bible truly states shows it to be a false religion.

you may get upset with this and i hate having to be the bear of bad news. but you have got to know the truth and see the truth. i am not saying that the catholic church has not done good things. but the pope is not god and mary isnt the one that died on the cross. the priests or fathers can not take away your sins.

spirit led ed, i agree that i have never heard a leader in the catholic church state any such thing. but i have heard it from more than one member of the catholic church.

As believers, we are instructed to "not forsake the assembling together" (Hebrews 10:25). God directs us into a body of believers so that we may receive edification, but more importantly, so that we can minister to our brethren. He fits us perfectly based on our giftings within the church, so that we can be a part of the mixture of giftings to produce unique ministry that can not happen in individuals, or elsewhere.

If we follow God's leading into a dark place, rather than complaining about the dark, we should let our light shine. Remember that the work of the church leaders (5 fold in Ephesians) is to equip the saints (all believers) to do the work of the ministry. WE ARE THE MINISTERS!

Take a look at the teeth of a saw blade. They are positioned and angled, crafted by the master, to work together to change the wood. Do you see a picture of the church?

I've got a million of those kind of observations!

 

[ushalk]

that is a good point, but now show me in the word of god that the assembling together has to be in a church building, denomination or congregation. it does not state this. we can have this fellowship anywhere we want to meet and discuss the lord and the word. let us be careful to not lay a law upon the word of god that discerns what is saved and what is not. that is playing in a dangerous field. it is not healthy either. we need to accept that there are a lot of false churches out there and sometimes we often look for what we want rather than what the lord wants. there are differences.

i personally do not see the lord sending anyone to a denomination church. the reason being is that anything the talks about these in the bible is not good. also many people have come up with their own doctrines in these denominations and traditions of men and claimed it to be a church and many claim the only true church.


so now what we have in the world today is rules that people consider ways of salvation. here are a couple of examples.

united pentecostal rules of salvation:

girls must wear dresses down to their ankles.

girls can cot wear make up.

girls can not cut their hair.

men must keep their faces shaved.

everyone has to speak in tongues.

this is just a few of their rules of salvation.

church of christ rules for salvation:

no instruments for worship.

must go to church everytime doors open.

all have to worship the same way.

cant fellowship out side of the congregation.

this is just a few more rules of another church.


what i am getting at is everyone has come up with rules to what they think show us who is saved or unsaved and they dont prove anything of the heart according to the word of god.

 

[mikemattice]

My brother,
Salvation is an individual experience, and has nothing to do with being in a church. If it were the whole of our faith, there would be no need for the Body of Christ (the church, not any particular denomination) in the world.

But salvation is just the beginning of the new life with God. True, many churches sometimes add their own doctrines as requirements for salvation. That's nothing new. Paul referred to the Judaizers, rebuking them for requiring new converts to Christianity to be circumsized and obey the Jewish laws. That is one of the primary evils of religion- it enables manipulators to control others in the guise of obedience to the Lord.

However, that does not change the command by God to not forsake the assembling together of believers.

Christians fellowshipping is wonderful, but that is not the church of Jesus Christ, the world-changing representation of the Body of Christ in the world. The church that our Lord has placed and empowers with His Spirit is far more than just some believers getting together for prayer and Bible study. God the Holy Ghost manifests Himself in different ways in a congregation of willing servants than He does to individuals. God ministers to and through these saints in magnificent and unique ways. He draws together a mix of individuals with unique giftings and abilities to create an entirely new entity, the body with many members but all One body. This is not the work of humanity, but of God. That church has the power to change the world, bring multitudes of lost to the Lord Jesus, and know the unity that Jesus prayed His followers would have. This is not a man-made unity based on compromise or overlooking differences. It is a complete unity of purpose... God's purpose, not ours.

This church exists in many churches in the world today, but not everywhere. True followers of Christ do not choose their church for themselves. They go wherever the Lord leads them, and they serve there in whatever way HE directs them. Its not about us. Its His church, not ours.

If we search for what we believe is the perfect church, two things happen: 1) We are not open to God's leading and 2) We don't find it. And if we just decide that all organized churches are wicked and refuse to participate in the Body of Christ, then we are disobedient and we limit our usefulness to God. That hinders our relationship with the Lord, our brethren, and is an ideal breeding ground for pride. God resists the proud (in other words, He withdraws from them), but gives grace to the humble (those who are wholly submitted to God's purpose and direction, especially if that leading takes us somewhere doing something we would not choose for ourselves).

Its a good thing to understand the doctrines of churches. Some people belong to churches and organizations without really knowing or understanding their tenets. But, again, I would ask: If God directs you to go to a dark place, isn't it likely that YOU are intended to be a light in that place?

 

[jiggyfly]

If we search for what we believe is the perfect church, two things happen: 1) We are not open to God's leading and 2) We don't find it. And if we just decide that all organized churches are wicked and refuse to participate in the Body of Christ, then we are disobedient and we limit our usefulness to God. That hinders our relationship with the Lord, our brethren, and is an ideal breeding ground for pride. God resists the proud (in other words, He withdraws from them), but gives grace to the humble (those who are wholly submitted to God's purpose and direction, especially if that leading takes us somewhere doing something we would not choose for ourselves).

I haven't participated in any religious liturgy within the religious institution for several years, so according to you my relationship with Jesus is hindered. I must admit that my relationship with those who are still illusioned about the religious institution seems to be very hindered but only because they usually restrict fellowship to their own little Sunday group. They have been deceived into believing that Hebrews 10:25 can only be fulfilled by participating in their style of religious gatherings of which I have yet to find any new covenant scripture to support.

Maybe you have it a little backwards Mike, You imply that I must have fellowship with those inside of the Christian religious system in order to have fellowship with Christ. I believe that I must first have fellowship with Christ in order to fellowship with His body.

Its a good thing to understand the doctrines of churches. Some people belong to churches and organizations without really knowing or understanding their tenets. But, again, I would ask: If God directs you to go to a dark place, isn't it likely that YOU are intended to be a light in that place?

Now if I am understanding you and the context of your post, it seems that you are suggesting that light has fellowship with darkness. We ar talking about fellowship right?

Mike I have seen it so many times in the time I was part of the religious institution, as long as I was going to this church over here they accepted me and said they loved me but when I stopped attending their meetings the love and acceptance stopped shortly after. I have witnessed this first hand several times. Let me share what Jesus showed me concerning this kind of behavior.

John 15:18&19
18*“When the world hates you, remember it hated me before it hated you. 19*The world would love you if you belonged to it, but you don’t. I chose you to come out of the world, and so it hates you.

This is the kind of love the world has and it is eminent in and from the religious system so to me there is no mistaking the origin of the Christian religious institution. The world loves you as long as you belong to it.

If we search for what we believe is the perfect church, two things happen: 1) We are not open to God's leading and 2) We don't find it.

So are you implying that Jesus is building an imperfect ekklesia or that God is hiding it so we can't find it?

I have had Hebrews 10:25 quoted and misquoted to and at me many many times. Yet I have never heard 1Corinthians 11:17 talked about at all by the same people.

*"Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse."


Mike here is an teaching that applies. God bless
http://www.talkjesus.com/bible-study-hall/22993-what-house-god.html

 

[mikemattice]

The True Church

Brother,
I may have miscommunicated. It seems you were given the impression I was speaking of a religious institution when I spoke of the Body of Christ.

I believe about 80% of biblical instruction given in the New Testament refers to how we are to relate to our brethren. If we say we love God, but hate our brethren, then we are liars and the truth is not in us.

I was attempting to encourage my brethren to discover the wondrous ways God works in a gathering of true worshippers that He does not do with individuals. The true church was established by God and empowered by His Holy Spirit to change the world, by revealing the hope we have in Jesus. It is the spotless bride. It is not a denomination, nor is it a religious institution. It exists in many churches.

What I had intended to communicate about hindering our relationship with God if we are not a part of a body of believers, was that we miss the blessing of working together in amazing ways that only God could make happen. After all, even though we are blessed by our brethren, that's not the reason for being in a body of believers. The reason is to be used by God to fulfill His purpose.

The point about church selection I was attempting to make was that its not up to us. We should go where God directs us, wherever He leads us.

 

[jiggyfly]

Brother,
I may have miscommunicated. It seems you were given the impression I was speaking of a religious institution when I spoke of the Body of Christ.

I believe about 80% of biblical instruction given in the New Testament refers to how we are to relate to our brethren. If we say we love God, but hate our brethren, then we are liars and the truth is not in us.

I was attempting to encourage my brethren to discover the wondrous ways God works in a gathering of true worshippers that He does not do with individuals. The true church was established by God and empowered by His Holy Spirit to change the world, by revealing the hope we have in Jesus. It is the spotless bride. It is not a denomination, nor is it a religious institution. It exists in many churches.

What I had intended to communicate about hindering our relationship with God if we are not a part of a body of believers, was that we miss the blessing of working together in amazing ways that only God could make happen. After all, even though we are blessed by our brethren, that's not the reason for being in a body of believers. The reason is to be used by God to fulfill His purpose.

The point about church selection I was attempting to make was that its not up to us. We should go where God directs us, wherever He leads us.

If you are implying that the body of Christ, the ekklesia is something other than a religious liturgical meeting then yes I did misunderstand you and I apologize and ask forgiveness.

 

[LatterDays]

In John ch 14 Jesus said "I am the way the truth and the life"

Without the Way, there is no Going
Without the Truth,there is no Knowing
Without the Life,there is no Living.

That is abosultely beautiful! I have never heard that before, but like it very much.

Thanks for sharing!

 

[ushalk]

the saddness of this whole thread is that even in many churches we are told of how money brings happiness or marriage or nice houses and cars. for some it is cable tv or booze or drugs. we dont hear about these things in the churches but we do not hear anything against these things either.

all those things will bring happiness for a season but only in christ do we have true happiness. only in christ do we find true forgiveness, true love, wisdom, knowledge, understanding and all the other stuff aswell.

i am not against marriage or having a house or a car or even money. i am against the way that it is taught as the blessings of the lord and that we shoule seek his face to obtain these blessings.

the true blessings from the lord are the convictions of sin in our life and us having the chance to repent of them to feel a godly sorrow for what we have done wrong toward our lord. it is knowing that if he is convicting our hearts he is changing our hearts to his righteousness. all we have to do is accept that.

we serve a merciful god.

 

[LatterDays]

Amen!!!!!

I would also add that there is a difference between happiness and joy. Happiness can be fleeting and based on circumstances. Joy is found in abiding in the presence of the Lord, joy is the fruit of the Spirit, joy is available in spite of our circumstances.

Praise God that He is worthy and fills us with a joy not based on the things of this world.

Let Him be glorified that He has given us His Son so that this joy can be shared with others!

 

[ushalk]

excellent point. thank you for reminding me and all of us.

 

[SpiritLedEd]

i am not against marriage or having a house or a car or even money. i am against the way that it is taught as the blessings of the lord and that we shoule seek his face to obtain these blessings.

the true blessings from the lord are the convictions of sin in our life and us having the chance to repent of them

"I am amply supplied, now that I have received from Epaphroditus the gifts you sent. They are a fragrant offering, an acceptable sacrifice, pleasing to God."(Phil 4:18 NIV).

The Apostle Paul gladly received whatever goods were useful for his well being and said such gifts were pleasing to God. Wanting money, cars, houses, etc. is not sinful. The sin lies in lusting after them (see 1 Tim:6:10).

SLE

 

[ushalk]

which is infact what is being taught in the churches, to lust after these things. the bible states not to live in want or desire of things because god will give us our need. also note that paul did not run out and obtain these things nor did he expect or put want into them. his faith in christ and seeking the kingdom of heaven got him what he needed. just as christ had promised.

 

[LatterDays]

Wanting money, cars, houses, etc. is not sinful. The sin lies in lusting after them (see 1 Tim:6:10).

SLE

I am not so sure there is a difference. The Bible says to place our affections on things above. Would not our affections be synonymous with our wants?

Money, cares, houses, etc. are not evil. God knows we have need of things down here and He will supply our needs. But these things should never be our focus/object of our desires, nor should ministries be telling people that they should seek after these things.

"Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself. But godliness with contentment is great gain." I Timothy 6:5-6