Gender Neutral?

[rojoloco]

Well, this is what I find. Men listen to a male preacher. They don't seem to listen to a woman as well. So that may be why it was delegated to men to preach. On the other hand women love to hear a woman preach. Back in Bible times men preached to men. A woman would not be listened to anyway, and maybe not even by other women. Their's was a patriarchal society. Now everyone has freedom of speech and personally a woman preacher, such as Joyce Meyer, has alot to share with and teach other women. I cannot see Jesus seeing it as sinning if it draws people closer to Him.

IIRC, Joyce Meyer only puts herself over other women in her ministry. I may be wrong. There is nothing wrong with women teaching other women or children. There is also nothing wrong with women teaching men alongside their husbands as a couple's team like Priscilla and Aquilla.

 

[Veracity]

lol. Apparently, you didn't even bother to read the part immediately following what ou highlighted. You claim I have a presumptious attitude yet you presumptiously post with a defense (even though there was no attack) when the disclaimer which stated I was not accusing you of being a feminist immediately followed. I'm going to say you didn't bother to read that because you then go to on declare that you are not a feminist when I just got done saying that was not necessaril the case. Good grief. Maybe you are the one that needs to get over yourself and instead open up for some Biblical discussion that isn't fueled by emotional outbursts. Thanks.

I read it, I am not blind, you apparently have passive aggressive ways of wording things, you throw out the dig and then claim it is not what you mean, when you intended an 'innocent' insult.

I don't think emotional is the correct word, but it is apparent that you have somehow set yourself up as an overall authority. Perhaps you are the one who is mistaken about your calling.

In the real world...

A Pastor is a man of God, who has been placed by God (usually) to lead and teach the word of God, to uplift, to encourage, to care for a 'flock of believers'. It is fairly rare for a woman alone to Pastor a church, and I have never been in a church where a woman was the lone Pastor. I have heard of women taking over for their husband, with his permission, and even an older woman who's husband had passed on, continuing on in his place. A Pastor should not badger insult or attempt to overpower anyone, one that does that is not in the will of God, period. A good Pastor takes things to God in prayer and uses few words to belittle anyone. To make this subject a sermon I have only heard preached in a church when there was a misunderstanding of such things being taught that were contrary to the word of God by a woman who was not a part of a Pastoral role. Perhaps that is an issue in your church. To just try to openly put women in there place would seem rather inflaming and out of context.

Now as far as the head covering...that is hair, or a shawl. Paul also said, but if anyone seems to be contentious, we have no such custom, nor do the churches of God.

A woman that has no husband, or who's husband does not respect God, has Christ for a covering. My original response to you was where you decide any women who thinks she is called to preach is not of God, and I am not sure where you can scripturally prove you have that knowledge, maybe you are the one who did not read.

 

[rojoloco]

I read it, I am not blind, you apparently have passive aggressive ways of wording things, you throw out the dig and then claim it is not what you mean, when you intended an 'innocent' insult.

I don't think emotional is the correct word, but it is apparent that you have somehow set yourself up as an overall authority. Perhaps you are the one who is mistaken about your calling.

In the real world...

A Pastor is a man of God, who has been placed by God (usually) to lead and teach the word of God, to uplift, to encourage, to care for a 'flock of believers'. It is fairly rare for a woman alone to Pastor a church, and I have never been in a church where a woman was the lone Pastor. I have heard of women taking over for their husband, with his permission, and even an older woman who's husband had passed on, continuing on in his place. A Pastor should not badger insult or attempt to overpower anyone, one that does that is not in the will of God, period. A good Pastor takes things to God in prayer and uses few words to belittle anyone. To make this subject a sermon I have only heard preached in a church when there was a misunderstanding of such things being taught that were contrary to the word of God by a woman who was not a part of a Pastoral role. Perhaps that is an issue in your church. To just try to openly put women in there place would seem rather inflaming and out of context.

First of all, I am not a pastor. I have no church. I call it my congregation but it is not a church. It is more an assembly of believers on a Navy ship. We have church but there is no church structure. I consider myself to have a responsibility for the spiritual welfare of the people onboard but not because of pastoral reasons. I am not called to be a pastor as I do not have the compassion required. I am a very logical person who has been gifted with teaching. Teaching is a very high responsibility. Paul was often harsh in his wording but he was passionate and far from cold. While it appeared cold to some, he had a passion and tough love that is difficult to comprehend when on the receiving end. I am similar in many ways yet he was gifted with compassion and sympathy as well. These are traits I pray God will work in me. He's done wonders over the years but I am still far from perfect. I tend to go full force in teaching mode and forget the rest which is a fault of mine. For that, I am sorry.

Now as far as the head covering...that is hair, or a shawl. Paul also said, but if anyone seems to be contentious, we have no such custom, nor do the churches of God.

There is nothing in the grammar to support that Paul is telling the people of Corinth that being contentious is not a practice of the church of God. The subject matter of the entire passage is about submission and head coverings. The Corinthians obviously had issues with this because of their multicultural practices. They were a sea port that had a mix of multiple religious and pagan practices. They were modern day America in the sense of, "Anything you can do I can do better." Paul saw this and felt the need to address it. He then closes it out to tell them it is not a cultural thing but a God thing and if they have an issue with it, they need to know there is no other standard within the Church of God regardless of location or cultural influences. Unfortunately, modern day America is no easily influenced by the culture around us that we have perverted the Word of God. Instead of conforming our views of society to the Word of God, we have conformed the Word of God to society. I have spoken with many people who go to churches led by a female pastor. Almost every single one of them actually goes so far as to say that was a cultural thing that no longer applies despite the fact that Paul says otherwise. To render any part of Scripture null and void is a poor practice that is unfortunately becoming common practice among many churches in America. If you go overseas, you see it is quite different. As I said in my sermon, Ukraine has a strict adherance to the words of Paul regarding submission as well as the symbolism of a head covering. It is just common practice because they have not been perverted by a society that condemns is as unfair.

A woman that has no husband, or who's husband does not respect God, has Christ for a covering. My original response to you was where you decide any women who thinks she is called to preach is not of God, and I am not sure where you can scripturally prove you have that knowledge, maybe you are the one who did not read.

Can you tell me where Scripture says this? It says a man has Christ for a covering but it then says a woman has a physical head covering. It then goes on to speak of a woman having long hair by nature. The hair itself is not the head covering but rather a natural reminder of the structure God has set up within marriage and the Church. As for whether a woman feels she is called by God to preach, I never said she is always wrong. I said she is wrong if she feels called to preach over a church of mixed gender and take on a role of authority over all. A male never has a right to delegate his responsibility to a woman. It is not a sexist thing. It is a God thing. In fact, Scripture also condemns the crossing over into each others roles. It calls it shameful. Males have an important role as do females but we are to remain within our boundaries. A female can easily do the responsibility of a male and vice versa but to do so is considered shameful in the eyes of God as it goes against the very order He created. To remain within our boundaries is not oppression. It is one of the highest forms of worship to God because we respect the order He created and adhere to His commands by meeting the responsibilities He has given to us. Unconditonal female submission to male authority within the Church and marriage can oftentimes be even more glorifying to God because males often fall short in their authority (by abusing it) making it that much more difficult for a woman to desire to fulfil her role. However, by meeting it in full unconditionally, she is meeting the command of God and is giving all glory to Him in worship and obedience to Him.

 

[Veracity]

First of all, I am not a pastor. I have no church. I call it my congregation but it is not a church. It is more an assembly of believers on a Navy ship. We have church but there is no church structure. I consider myself to have a responsibility for the spiritual welfare of the people onboard but not because of pastoral reasons. I am not called to be a pastor as I do not have the compassion required. I am a very logical person who has been gifted with teaching. Teaching is a very high responsibility. Paul was often harsh in his wording but he was passionate and far from cold. While it appeared cold to some, he had a passion and tough love that is difficult to comprehend when on the receiving end. I am similar in many ways yet he was gifted with compassion and sympathy as well. These are traits I pray God will work in me. He's done wonders over the years but I am still far from perfect. I tend to go full force in teaching mode and forget the rest which is a fault of mine. For that, I am sorry.

.

Nuff said. I knew you were not a pastor.

Like I said, originally my comment was on your "knowledge" of women who thinks she was called to preach.

I am submissive to the Lord, He covers me. I am sorry if you don't like that. God is no respecter of persons, to say He has respect for men above women is the message you are sending. How do you go full force in teaching mode and yet never develop such a small thing as compassion and sympathy? "Teaching is a very high responsibility".

Well, happy teaching to you.

 

[rojoloco]

Nuff said. I knew you were not a pastor.

Like I said, originally my comment was on your "knowledge" of women who thinks she was called to preach.

I am submissive to the Lord, He covers me. I am sorry if you don't like that. God is no respecter of persons, to say He has respect for men above women is the message you are sending. How do you go full force in teaching mode and yet never develop such a small thing as compassion and sympathy? "Teaching is a very high responsibility".

Well, happy teaching to you.

Teaching does not require compassion or sympathy. It only requires accuracy. You say that the outline in Scripture goes against respecting of people as equal. This is not the case at all. This is how modern day Corinth (America) has perverted Scripture by replacing what is holy with with what is culturally acceptable. The first thing you need to understand is how the Biblical roles of man as having authority over women and the Biblical role of women to men has nothing to do with a lack of respect toward women. This is just how many men have perverted their God given role. If each party is fulfilling their roles without crossing over into the other role, you will find perfect harmony among marriage and the Church.

 

[Kit Carson]

I have always found separating certain scriptures of the bible to prove points quite amusing. None seem to see the total picture and it is very dangerous to take a few scriptures and form an opinion.

Man and woman were made in Gods Image. Not just man. Woman was to be our companion , and we are to treat them as so, with love and respect.

Somewhere in Galatians is says there is neither bond nor free, no male or female, for all are one in Christ, something like that. Was this not this same Paul feller??

When you read the whole chapter is says something like once a person has faith they are no longer under the schoolmaster, teacher, whatever exactly that means, but to me it means once a person has faith it is between them and God.

All this head covering and uncovering, to me this was tradition, culture and a way of symbolic means for the times. A hold over from the old laws and a way of the land. When I talk to God, he does not care if I have on a hat, or not or have any hair at all. All he wants is just for me to say Hi and listen to him. That is all. So far I still have hair, do not have to polish up my sun spot.

How did Jesus deal with the prostitute when the people all wanted to stone her to death. Did he treat her any different, nope.

Since time began women have been mistreated, sold as goods, held down and just in general not treated properly by selfish bad men.

I find it very hard to even imagine selling a person, or doing some of the things that were done in the old days. To force women into all kinds of things against their will, or to sell them into slavery, or worse things. Then sit back and say this is Gods will. Something wrong with this one, this fish stinks.

For me I have no problem with a woman being my equal, or my mentor, or just one in the faith that might just teach me a thing or two. Once God speaks to them , are they not the same as I. Just person who loves and accepts God, fails like I do, laughs and smiles and cries.

Some of that old school stuff to me is just total nonsense. It was a way of life, tradition and more for the way of man than of God.

Ok let me have it, but this is what I feel, and the answer I get from reading the entire bible, talking to God about it, is one is and can be and will be the same and or equal. Many things of old are gone, we now have a concious (do not know how to spell that) but we know by ourselves once we know God, what is right and what is wrong, this is what the Holy Spirit teaches me. I know it is wrong to mistreat others, women or not, or to do some of the things of old or to hold to their tradition or custom. If any person by god woman or man can help me or teach me I will accept it, as just maybe God told them in their heart to talk to me.

It is us men , unwilling to bend, to accept that is the problem. There are a great many variables and exception to this, all around, so I speak in general terms, not one single isolated situation or one small facet of the whole picture.

A great many things in the bible were told in a story book way, simply for people to understand, to make it simple, under it all is the one message, we are saved by grace, and we should act this way. To be fair and just.
I have quite a bit of problem with many things in the bible, or I used to let me put it that way . The killing of men, women and children in some cases not all, and then pat yourself on the back and say it was Gods will. Not always so, sometimes so, all that did use to bother me, until I read the bible, stopped listening to others quote little verses and let God calm my mind about it all.

Very dangerous to quote little scriptures and not see the whole picture. I am just a person, not at all educated, but this is my viewpoint and what God has put in my heart about all this.;

Respectfully:

Kit

Just a note and a bit of humor along with a great truth. Us men hate to be challenged by women. My wife challenges me all the time, and gets quite the kick out of it. She does it sometimes just to aggravate me. Then gets the giggles. Learn to lighten up, enjoy life and accept God for what he really is. Very fair, very just, and blamed for a whole lot he has nothing to do with. Satan is in the mix too, so you have to test and ponder many things. A very wise person once told me Satan may have helped or influenced certain things in the bible, as for that I am still pondering on that one. One day I will be granted that answer, till then I do not hold it impossible. Men are men, and we do fall, we do become influenced and to me the quoting of scripture without full understanding is just maybe Satan pushing a wedge into the tree. Make Sense ? Hard to tell is is not? God tells me my most intelligent thought is total foolishness. I have learned he is always right about that.
Kit

 

[rojoloco]

I have always found separating certain scriptures of the bible to prove points quite amusing. None seem to see the total picture and it is very dangerous to take a few scriptures and form an opinion.

I have a name for what you described. I call it snippet theology. Snippet theology is taking a few random verses, putting them together, and calling it doctrine. However, this is not what I did in my original post. What I did is derived from hermeneutics. It is letting Scripture interpret Scripture as a whole and getting a truth out of the entirety of Scripture. In this case, there is nothing wrong with taking parts of Scripture and showing them truth from them. How do you think the doctrine of the Trinity exists? The Bible does not teach the term. We see the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit in different parts of Scripture but we never see them all together at once. We have the doctrine of the Trinity by taking parts from Scripture as a whole and seeing the Truth from it.

Man and woman were made in Gods Image. Not just man. Woman was to be our companion , and we are to treat them as so, with love and respect.

I have to disagree with the first sentence. That is because Scripture disagrees with it. As I posted:

For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man.

I have a feeling you are getting your belief from:

God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

You just fell victim to the very thing you condemned in your first paragraph. You took a single verse and created a belief out of it. All Genesis 1:27 is saying is that God created both man and woman. However, notice how it differentiates the creation of man from the creation of woman. It takes the time to specifically state that man was not only made bu also made in God's image. It then goes to say that both man and woman were created. How can we be assured this is a differentiation and not just repetition? It is because we see it in Scripture as a whole when joining it with verses such as 1 Corinhians 11:7 where it says man is the glory of God but woman is the glory of man. Again, a differentiation yet one that aligns perfectly with the whole of Scripture. As for your other sentence, I agree with it in full because Scripture agrees with it.

Somewhere in Galatians is says there is neither bond nor free, no male or female, for all are one in Christ, something like that. Was this not this same Paul feller??

This is not condemning roles and responsibilities. Paul was saying man has no more value than woman. You already stated the way women were treated back then. You are absolutely correct. This is the reason for this statement by Paul. One is no more valuable than the other. This does not mean they didn't have roles and responsibilities to meet as a part of their creation that are very specific to each gender. As I already stated in my lesson, the roles and responsibilities should not be seen as a burden or beat down. They should be seen as an honor. As I also said, the role of a woman is often more honorable and glorious than the role of a man simply BECAUSE the woman is in a role of submission. That is a VERY high calling.

When you read the whole chapter is says something like once a person has faith they are no longer under the schoolmaster, teacher, whatever exactly that means, but to me it means once a person has faith it is between them and God.

That is at the very end of Galatians 3. Everything before and after refers to being in bondage to the Law versus our liberty in Christ and being set free by Christ. It is not abolishing the God given roles of man and woman as these are outside the Law. The chapters are glorifying Christ as being the only one who brings freedom. However, Paul's commands are not from the Law either. They are clearly New Testament commands of God for Christ's Church.

All this head covering and uncovering, to me this was tradition, culture and a way of symbolic means for the times. A hold over from the old laws and a way of the land. When I talk to God, he does not care if I have on a hat, or not or have any hair at all. All he wants is just for me to say Hi and listen to him. That is all. So far I still have hair, do not have to polish up my sun spot.

And Paul says it is not merely culture and tradition. In fact, this was the same argument the Corinthians were giving to him. They were a multicultural port call that had absorbed the many cultures passing through. Paul condemns this idea that what he is speaking of is merely cultural in 1 Corinthians 11:16 when he tells them if they think this, they need to realize there is no other practice among ALL the churches of God. It was not cultural at all. It was God's standard.

How did Jesus deal with the prostitute when the people all wanted to stone her to death. Did he treat her any different, nope.

Why would he have? That has no bearing on this discussion unless you feel being submissive is negative. If this is the case, your view has been shaped because of history and how society has wrongly treated women and has not been molded by the simplicity of Scripture. If Scripture says it is to be, it is not wrong. If it appears to be wrong, it is because society has perverted it to make it appear wrong.

Since time began women have been mistreated, sold as goods, held down and just in general not treated properly by selfish bad men.

I find it very hard to even imagine selling a person, or doing some of the things that were done in the old days. To force women into all kinds of things against their will, or to sell them into slavery, or worse things. Then sit back and say this is Gods will. Something wrong with this one, this fish stinks.

None of this was ever condoned by God. It was always men who took things into their own hands and violated their roles by ignoring their responsibilities.

For me I have no problem with a woman being my equal, or my mentor, or just one in the faith that might just teach me a thing or two. Once God speaks to them , are they not the same as I. Just person who loves and accepts God, fails like I do, laughs and smiles and cries.

And this is how it should be. However, there should still be a level of headship and submission because that is the design God intended. However, it is not merely management of a business. It is management of a family, partner, helpmate, lover, etc. It is management of the heart and soul of one flesh.

Ok let me have it, but this is what I feel, and the answer I get from reading the entire bible, talking to God about it, is one is and can be and will be the same and or equal. Many things of old are gone, we now have a concious (do not know how to spell that) but we know by ourselves once we know God, what is right and what is wrong, this is what the Holy Spirit teaches me. I know it is wrong to mistreat others, women or not, or to do some of the things of old or to hold to their tradition or custom. If any person by god woman or man can help me or teach me I will accept it, as just maybe God told them in their heart to talk to me.

Again, it appears you only see submission in the negative light based on how men throughout history have neglected their roles and perverted God's system of authority and submission.

A great many things in the bible were told in a story book way, simply for people to understand, to make it simple, under it all is the one message, we are saved by grace, and we should act this way. To be fair and just.

If by story book, you mean non-fictional history book, I agree.

I have quite a bit of problem with many things in the bible, or I used to let me put it that way . The killing of men, women and children in some cases not all, and then pat yourself on the back and say it was Gods will.

Again, this is only done by people who neglect God's ordered structure and pervert it into something else.

Not always so, sometimes so, all that did use to bother me, until I read the bible, stopped listening to others quote little verses and let God calm my mind about it all.

So do you not believe Scripture is inspired by God even though 2 Timothy is one of the only places to say such? I will gladly quote that verse and speak it as Truth.

Very dangerous to quote little scriptures and not see the whole picture. I am just a person, not at all educated, but this is my viewpoint and what God has put in my heart about all this.;

We are called to be able to give a defense of all things. The only way to do this is by being able to quote verses from Scripture. The difficult task is disciplining oneself to actually learn what Scripture has to say as a whole and knowing where to find those verses. The next part is practicing exegesis though sound hermeneutics to get the proper interpretation so as to be able to use the proper application.

The simple fact of the matter is that the whole picture shows an order of headship and submission where one is no more valuable than the other and both are required in order to function at the level God intended. We are dependent upon each other because it is shameful to cross over into the role of another. There is nothing shameful about meeting the responsibilities of the role God created us to fill.

Just a note and a bit of humor along with a great truth. Us men hate to be challenged by women. My wife challenges me all the time, and gets quite the kick out of it. She does it sometimes just to aggravate me. Then gets the giggles.

What do you mean by challenges? If you mean she challenges you to grow in your faith and challenges you to be the best you can be through reassurance and support, this is awesome. If you mean she challenges your authority as an animal challenges an opponent through a stare down or intimidation, I'd have to say this is very, very wrong. My wife used to call me out on things and humiliate me in public as a means of making herself feel lifted up and authoritatively strong. Over the years, she has realized this is COMPLETELY outside her role and that she was responding to years of conditioning by a perverted society.

A very wise person once told me Satan may have helped or influenced certain things in the bible, as for that I am still pondering on that one.

Are you saying you think Satan inspired some parts of the Word of God? 2 Timothy 3:16 says the exact opposite when it says ALL Scripture is God breathed. I hope I am understanding you wrong. I believe everything Paul says in Scripture is from God and not a lick of it is from the mouth of Satan.

 

[Kit Carson]

I have a name for what you described. I call it snippet theology. Snippet theology is taking a few random verses, putting them together, and calling it doctrine. However, this is not what I did in my original post. What I did is derived from hermeneutics. It is letting Scripture interpret Scripture as a whole and getting a truth out of the entirety of Scripture. In this case, there is nothing wrong with taking parts of Scripture and showing them truth from them. How do you think the doctrine of the Trinity exists? The Bible does not teach the term. We see the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit in different parts of Scripture but we never see them all together at once. We have the doctrine of the Trinity by taking parts from Scripture as a whole and seeing the Truth from it.



I have to disagree with the first sentence. That is because Scripture disagrees with it. As I posted:



I have a feeling you are getting your belief from:



You just fell victim to the very thing you condemned in your first paragraph. You took a single verse and created a belief out of it. All Genesis 1:27 is saying is that God created both man and woman. However, notice how it differentiates the creation of man from the creation of woman. It takes the time to specifically state that man was not only made bu also made in God's image. It then goes to say that both man and woman were created. How can we be assured this is a differentiation and not just repetition? It is because we see it in Scripture as a whole when joining it with verses such as 1 Corinhians 11:7 where it says man is the glory of God but woman is the glory of man. Again, a differentiation yet one that aligns perfectly with the whole of Scripture. As for your other sentence, I agree with it in full because Scripture agrees with it.



This is not condemning roles and responsibilities. Paul was saying man has no more value than woman. You already stated the way women were treated back then. You are absolutely correct. This is the reason for this statement by Paul. One is no more valuable than the other. This does not mean they didn't have roles and responsibilities to meet as a part of their creation that are very specific to each gender. As I already stated in my lesson, the roles and responsibilities should not be seen as a burden or beat down. They should be seen as an honor. As I also said, the role of a woman is often more honorable and glorious than the role of a man simply BECAUSE the woman is in a role of submission. That is a VERY high calling.



That is at the very end of Galatians 3. Everything before and after refers to being in bondage to the Law versus our liberty in Christ and being set free by Christ. It is not abolishing the God given roles of man and woman as these are outside the Law. The chapters are glorifying Christ as being the only one who brings freedom. However, Paul's commands are not from the Law either. They are clearly New Testament commands of God for Christ's Church.



And Paul says it is not merely culture and tradition. In fact, this was the same argument the Corinthians were giving to him. They were a multicultural port call that had absorbed the many cultures passing through. Paul condemns this idea that what he is speaking of is merely cultural in 1 Corinthians 11:16 when he tells them if they think this, they need to realize there is no other practice among ALL the churches of God. It was not cultural at all. It was God's standard.



Why would he have? That has no bearing on this discussion unless you feel being submissive is negative. If this is the case, your view has been shaped because of history and how society has wrongly treated women and has not been molded by the simplicity of Scripture. If Scripture says it is to be, it is not wrong. If it appears to be wrong, it is because society has perverted it to make it appear wrong.



None of this was ever condoned by God. It was always men who took things into their own hands and violated their roles by ignoring their responsibilities.



And this is how it should be. However, there should still be a level of headship and submission because that is the design God intended. However, it is not merely management of a business. It is management of a family, partner, helpmate, lover, etc. It is management of the heart and soul of one flesh.



Again, it appears you only see submission in the negative light based on how men throughout history have neglected their roles and perverted God's system of authority and submission.



If by story book, you mean non-fictional history book, I agree.



Again, this is only done by people who neglect God's ordered structure and pervert it into something else.



So do you not believe Scripture is inspired by God even though 2 Timothy is one of the only places to say such? I will gladly quote that verse and speak it as Truth.



We are called to be able to give a defense of all things. The only way to do this is by being able to quote verses from Scripture. The difficult task is disciplining oneself to actually learn what Scripture has to say as a whole and knowing where to find those verses. The next part is practicing exegesis though sound hermeneutics to get the proper interpretation so as to be able to use the proper application.

The simple fact of the matter is that the whole picture shows an order of headship and submission where one is no more valuable than the other and both are required in order to function at the level God intended. We are dependent upon each other because it is shameful to cross over into the role of another. There is nothing shameful about meeting the responsibilities of the role God created us to fill.



What do you mean by challenges? If you mean she challenges you to grow in your faith and challenges you to be the best you can be through reassurance and support, this is awesome. If you mean she challenges your authority as an animal challenges an opponent through a stare down or intimidation, I'd have to say this is very, very wrong. My wife used to call me out on things and humiliate me in public as a means of making herself feel lifted up and authoritatively strong. Over the years, she has realized this is COMPLETELY outside her role and that she was responding to years of conditioning by a perverted society.



Are you saying you think Satan inspired some parts of the Word of God? 2 Timothy 3:16 says the exact opposite when it says ALL Scripture is God breathed. I hope I am understanding you wrong. I believe everything Paul says in Scripture is from God and not a lick of it is from the mouth of Satan.

Well I came, I played a bit, simply to satisfy my curious nature. I learn a lot about people, things and the way of life by listening to other people.
None are wrong, all are well meaning and all are children of God. We just see things a bit different, but when you get to the basics we all seem to agree.
I am falling into my own trap. To discuss, hash/dice and dissect things by mans thoughts and ways. I am a man, totally stupid sometimes Lol! But I do try.
So I live by the words God has told me, my most important and intelligent thought is just silly.
Somewhere we are taught also that teachers, leaders and even us if we dissect it enough, study it enough, try to put theory and great leaned principles to things, we are wrong.
So I will shut up, leave it alone, and just do like I have for the last few years, I simply ask God for understanding, and maybe the answer he give me is not for others, we are all different, in different stages of belief and understanding.

Where I think all of us go wrong is trying to input doctrine, theory and mans thoughts into Gods word.

So an answer given to me, may not be for you, or someone else, it fits me, my personal stage of life and belief.

The important thing is I do with all my heart believe in God, he is a friend, someone to talk to.

That is about it.
Respectfully
Kit

 

[benfaust]

Still Here and Absolute Truth

"Diligently study to show yourself approved unto God, a workman who does not need to be ashamed, correctly understanding and teaching the Word of Truth." (2 Timothy 2:15 KMV)

Diligent study. Hopefully that's what this thread will encourage us all to do (in response to some of the replies).

Rojoloco, I haven't ignored your questions, but just haven't had time to dig, study more, and reply (don't want to just throw something sloppy out there).

I do think this is an important issue, because truth isn't relative to the one seeking it, but is fixed in heaven and recorded in the Holy Scriptures. God won't say one thing to me and something doctrinally opposing to someone else. And if I can't point to Scripture and say, "No, what you're saying isn't right because the Bible says this..." then maybe I'm wrong.

Perhaps doctrinal debate isn't for everyone, but we should every single one of us become "good Bereans," searching the Scriptures daily to "see whether these things are true," trusting God's Holy Spirit to guide us when we don't understand, but being diligent to keep studying until we do. The more diligent we are to do our part to work with the Holy Spirit by studying His Word, the more He will take our pursuit of truth seriously and reveal those truths to us for which we are actively digging.

 

[Veracity]

I have a name for what you described. I call it snippet theology. Snippet theology is taking a few random verses, putting them together, and calling it doctrine. However, this is not what I did in my original post. What I did is derived from hermeneutics. It is letting Scripture interpret Scripture as a whole and getting a truth out of the entirety of Scripture. In this case, there is nothing wrong with taking parts of Scripture and showing them truth from them. How do you think the doctrine of the Trinity exists? The Bible does not teach the term. We see the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit in different parts of Scripture but we never see them all together at once. We have the doctrine of the Trinity by taking parts from Scripture as a whole and seeing the Truth from it.



I have to disagree with the first sentence. That is because Scripture disagrees with it. As I posted:



I have a feeling you are getting your belief from:



You just fell victim to the very thing you condemned in your first paragraph. You took a single verse and created a belief out of it. All Genesis 1:27 is saying is that God created both man and woman. However, notice how it differentiates the creation of man from the creation of woman. It takes the time to specifically state that man was not only made bu also made in God's image. It then goes to say that both man and woman were created. How can we be assured this is a differentiation and not just repetition? It is because we see it in Scripture as a whole:bored: when joining it with verses such as 1 Corinhians 11:7 where it says man is the glory of God but woman is the glory of man. Again, a differentiation yet one that aligns perfectly with the whole of Scripture. As for your other sentence, I agree with it in full because Scripture agrees with it.



This is not condemning roles and responsibilities. Paul was saying man has no more value than woman. You already stated the way women were treated back then. You are absolutely correct. This is the reason for this statement by Paul. One is no more valuable than the other. This does not mean they didn't have roles and responsibilities to meet as a part of their creation that are very specific to each gender. As I already stated in my lesson, the roles and responsibilities should not be seen as a burden or beat down. They should be seen as an honor. As I also said, the role of a woman is often more honorable and glorious than the role of a man simply BECAUSE the woman is in a role of submission. That is a VERY high calling.



That is at the very end of Galatians 3. Everything before and after refers to being in bondage to the Law versus our liberty in Christ and being set free by Christ. It is not abolishing the God given roles of man and woman as these are outside the Law. The chapters are glorifying Christ as being the only one who brings freedom. However, Paul's commands are not from the Law either. They are clearly New Testament commands of God for Christ's Church.



And Paul says it is not merely culture and tradition. In fact, this was the same argument the Corinthians were giving to him. They were a multicultural port call that had absorbed the many cultures passing through. Paul condemns this idea that what he is speaking of is merely cultural in 1 Corinthians 11:16 when he tells them if they think this, they need to realize there is no other practice among ALL the churches of God. It was not cultural at all. It was God's standard.



Why would he have? That has no bearing on this discussion unless you feel being submissive is negative. If this is the case, your view has been shaped because of history and how society has wrongly treated women and has not been molded by the simplicity of Scripture. If Scripture says it is to be, it is not wrong. If it appears to be wrong, it is because society has perverted it to make it appear wrong.



None of this was ever condoned by God. It was always men who took things into their own hands and violated their roles by ignoring their responsibilities.



And this is how it should be. However, there should still be a level of headship and submission because that is the design God intended. However, it is not merely management of a business. It is management of a family, partner, helpmate, lover, etc. It is management of the heart and soul of one flesh.


:bored:
Again, it appears you only see submission in the negative light based on how men throughout history have neglected their roles and perverted God's system of authority and submission.



If by story book, you mean non-fictional history book, I agree.



Again, this is only done by people who neglect God's ordered structure and pervert it into something else.



So do you not believe Scripture is inspired by God even though 2 Timothy is one of the only places to say such? I will gladly quote that verse and speak it as Truth.



We are called to be able to give a defense of all things. The only way to do this is by being able to quote verses from Scripture. The difficult task is disciplining oneself to actually learn what Scripture has to say as a whole and knowing where to find those verses. The next part is practicing exegesis though sound hermeneutics to get the proper interpretation so as to be able to use the proper application.

The simple fact of the matter is that the whole picture shows an order of headship and submission where one is no more valuable than the other and both are required in order to function at the level God intended. We are dependent upon each other because it is shameful to cross over into the role of another. There is nothing shameful about meeting the responsibilities of the role God created us to fill.



What do you mean by challenges? If you mean she challenges you to grow in your faith and challenges you to be the best you can be through reassurance and support, this is awesome. If you mean she challenges your authority as an animal challenges an opponent through a stare down or intimidation, I'd have to say this is very, very wrong. My wife used to call me out on things and humiliate me in public as a me:bored:ans of making herself feel lifted up and authoritatively strong. Over the years, she has realized this is COMPLETELY outside her role and that she was responding to years of conditioning by a perverted society.



Are you saying you think Satan inspired some parts of the Word of God? 2 Timothy 3:16 says the exact opposite when it says ALL Scripture is God breathed. I hope I am understanding you wrong. I believe everything Paul says in Scripture is from God and not a lick of it is from the mouth of Satan.

Your wife must adore you.

 

[HeIsMyFather]

LOL!, Veracity! I'm sorry, but you've got me rolling here...

 

[Veracity]

So I asked my Pastor about this, and he said, that back in those days, the Jewish culture kept the men and women separated, with men on one side and women on the other. Now according to him; some of the women did not understand what was being said and would be trying to ask their husbands to explain it to them, during the gathering which would be a shame to be so interrupting, not to mention rude, and that is why they were told to learn from their husbands at home, and keep silence in the church. There is something very irritating about someone asking questions while someone is speaking, especially from across the room, but you know she probably asked all the women around her first right? LOL

Now that I would definitely agree with. Even to this day. Who knows what "church" services were like back then, they sure did not have the organization they do now with pews and ladies rooms and a nursery. If everyone was up giving testimonies and singing a psalm or someone speaking in tongues and someone else interpreting, those must have been long wonderful services...church now is no where as entertaining as that must have been, but it sure should be.

So, if Christian men like to believe that a woman's submission includes letting him ramble on and on about how he is more in Gods image than her, God bless the woman with that man.

 

[Greatness4life]

In a few words

Dear brothers and sisters, I think the issue here is not about debating and argument, we can best understand the Truth when we have devoted our time not only to studying of bible but more importantly, waiting and listening to what the Lord will have to say on this matter.. I know someone may quickly say ''but we have the bible and that is enough'', to say such things is to put the cart before the horse.

I'm looking forward to a day when a brother or sister will not just preach me out of the scriptures but will show me what the Lord has taught him and cause him/her to experience. This is the whole goal of knowing the Lord.

The subject matter here should not be whether it is wrong for a woman to teach or not but, it should be what is the standard of God as regarding this issue by His Spirit. We can only know his standard when we have spent time with Him alone.

So, brother Paul has revelation before sharing what he shared in Corinth so also we must enter into such revelation before we can properly understand some of the things he taught them.

Many woman has been a blessing to me through their teachings and books. I could recall Madam Guyon, who taught me how to go into deeper relationship with my Lord Jesus above all activities around and so many other like her.

The point is this '' who are thou to judge another man's servant?'' ''If he is falling, he is falling for his master and if he standing the same for his master''. I will rather listen to what the Lord has taught you than to engage into an endless debates and arguments!.

''I will rather listen to a woman who has a word from the Lord than a man who is wallowing in his doctrines and dogmas''
So also will I give attention to ''thus saith the Lord'' in a man that is following the Lord than for a woman who has turned to Jezebel and lure people after her!!

May be if we understand what the Ekklesia means, we can then grasp this understanding. The point is that most of what we called today as Church as simply MINISTRIES or EVANGELICAL ORGANIZATION; they are far from being the Church!! This is why it is important to seek the Lord face in order to know what He approved and what He disapproved.

May the Lord help us and grant us revelation of His way.

 

[rojoloco]

Your wife must adore you.

The simple fact that you inserted the " :bored: " symbol MULTIPLE times in response to Scripture tells me you are not qualified to take part in a discussion of this nature. Your replies have been based on emotion whereas mine have been based on Scripture. My replies to your emotion are filled with Scripture whereas your replies to my Scripture is you telling me it is boring. No exegetical replies. No proper hermeneutics. Just a simple smile tapping its fingers in boredom. This says more than you can ever imagine.

 

[benfaust]

Madame Guyon?

It's really impossible to have a productive discussion of Godly Truth while diminishing the authority of the Holy Scriptures. From reading about Madame Guyon, I'm pretty sure Paul wouldn't have let her teach men OR women, regardless of her gender.

She was actually a mystic who practiced occult Eastern meditation as a method of supposedly connecting with God. A major problem with her teachings and with applying the concepts to this discussion is that a thousand different people might have a thousand different "experiences" and come to a thousand different doctrinal conclusions.

A loving and very serious warning to you: run away from the trap of believing spiritual truth can be determined by experience alone! To use a more neutral example than women teachers, many people "connecting with God" via occult/Eastern methods have "experienced" that they have reincarnated many times, or that they have gone to see Jesus and heard him say that some people call him Jesus, while others call him Buddha or Allah (thus all roads lead to God).

Of course both examples there are in direct opposition to what is written in the Holy Scriptures ("It is appointed unto man once to die, and then the judgment," -Hebrews 9:27, and "...there is no other name given among men [besides Jesus] by which we must be saved." -Acts 4:12).

So which one do we believe? Lying angels of light who lead us away from what God has written? Or the Words of the Bible which are Spirit and Life? If the Bible is misleading or not completely true, then we might as well all go find our spirit guide (demon) and follow whatever (hell-bound) road tickles our fancy.

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables." -2 Timothy 4:3-4

Church, don't let that be us! Instead of judging the Word of God by our experiences, let us judge our experiences by the Word of God; and anything that does not line up with what God has already said in His Holy Scriptures, let us recognize it as false.

 

[rojoloco]

At least we can agree with everything you just said there. If it goes against Scripture or does not perfectly align with it (especially things that just leave it out completely), I consider it a false doctrine and something to be condemned.

 

[Greatness4life]

It's really impossible to have a productive discussion of Godly Truth while diminishing the authority of the Holy Scriptures. From reading about Madame Guyon, I'm pretty sure Paul wouldn't have let her teach men OR women, regardless of her gender.

She was actually a mystic who practiced occult Eastern meditation as a method of supposedly connecting with God. A major problem with her teachings and with applying the concepts to this discussion is that a thousand different people might have a thousand different "experiences" and come to a thousand different doctrinal conclusions.

A loving and very serious warning to you: run away from the trap of believing spiritual truth can be determined by experience alone! To use a more neutral example than women teachers, many people "connecting with God" via occult/Eastern methods have "experienced" that they have reincarnated many times, or that they have gone to see Jesus and heard him say that some people call him Jesus, while others call him Buddha or Allah (thus all roads lead to God).

Of course both examples there are in direct opposition to what is written in the Holy Scriptures ("It is appointed unto man once to die, and then the judgment," -Hebrews 9:27, and "...there is no other name given among men [besides Jesus] by which we must be saved." -Acts 4:12).

So which one do we believe? Lying angels of light who lead us away from what God has written? Or the Words of the Bible which are Spirit and Life? If the Bible is misleading or not completely true, then we might as well all go find our spirit guide (demon) and follow whatever (hell-bound) road tickles our fancy.

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables." -2 Timothy 4:3-4

Church, don't let that be us! Instead of judging the Word of God by our experiences, let us judge our experiences by the Word of God; and anything that does not line up with what God has already said in His Holy Scriptures, let us recognize it as false.

Well I don't think I need to debate this with you; Although you made a point in your post but having read through, I saw that you misunderstood what I posted.

First of all, The Lord DOES NOT say that ''To get to heaven I need to know the Bible but What did He say?'' He said; ''I need to know Him more on an intimate Relationship'' and that is what bring about the Knowing of the Scripture. I can have the head knowledge of the Bible and not have the Life in it.

Secondly, When the Lord was living the Earth after His Resurrection; What did give to us-Believers? The Bible or A PERSON?!!!. Once people begins to substitute the first for the second then, the problem set in!!. In actual fact, If you follow the Holy Spirit; He will definitely teach you the Truth who is A PERSON from the Scriptures but if you deep your head into the bible without Him, then all you will get is a THING and NOT A PERSON.

Do you know the problem we have as believers today? We have substituted the Bible for the Place of Holy-Spirit. This is why everyone has his own doctrines and denominations!!! Once you don't believed what I believed the next thing is for you to build your own empire and label it ''CHURCH''!!! Our problem is not the Bible but our Problem is that WE HAVE NEGLECTED A PERSON-THE HOLY-SPIRIT and also substituted Him for our UNENDING PROGRAM-MES AND ACTIVITIES!!.

Thirdly, concerning Madame Guyon; I am not that surprised to hear that from you, and I don't think I need to defend that but just an advice before you conclude a matter and label someone names consider their lives, write-up, teachings and most importantly their relationship to the Lord, don't just do ''hear say''(I WAS TAUGHT OR MY PASTOR TOLD ME) Let it be something HOLY-SPIRIT HAS SHOWN YOU, what you have read and studied about them before you write your conclusions about them.

If what you posted was true about her, then Watchman Nee was also deceived because he also learned from Her, Brother Lawrence who wrote ''inward Journey'' was also a big liar. More importantly, Gene Edward, William Braham and many other like that who walked in an inward journey with Lord were all agent of Deceptions?!!!.

John said: what we have seen, touched and handle, we declared unto you but many of us declare what we have not seen nor handle not to even talk of touching it. And day by day we multiply our dogmas, doctrines and keep on dragging Christ out of our denominations and programs.


You know what? Pagan don't kill believers; It has been believers that killed believers when they refused to followed their own doctrines and Dogmas!!
Get a person who desire to walk with the Lord on an INWARD JOURNEY and those who cherish their religiosity, then see what will happened. The latter will seek to kill the former!!


On the last note; We must definitely judge our experiences with the scriptures!!!!
Like your post dear, I guess you don't believed in people that have spiritual experiences and if that is the case, well then, hold on to it.

IF ALL YOU CAN GIVE ME IS CHRIST AND NOT DOCTRINES, THEN YOU HAVE REALLY MEET MY NEEDS! FOR HE IS MY INHERITANCE AND HE IS THE ONE THAT WILL TEACH ME ALL THINGS WITH OR WITHOUT THE BIBLE

 

[benfaust]

"With or without the Bible"? Sounds like you'd do better in a New Age forum.

 

[SpiritLedEd]

you are not qualified to take part in a discussion of this nature.

Rojo, that is not your decision. If you have a problem with any member's post, click "Report Post" in the upper right hand corner of the screen and let the moderators do their job. I am issuing formal infractions to you and Veracity for "insulting other members".

SLE

 

[SpiritLedEd]

Veracity, posting the "Bored" emoticon in reply to Rojoloco was a violation of the forum rule against insulting other members. An insult does'nt have to be verbal. I am issuing formal infractions to both of you.

SLE