Gender Neutral?

[eddieb]

when it says he created man in his image read closely. in one place it says in OUR image and in OUR likeness, then later it says in HIS image and HIS likeness. plural to singular form.
there are 3 parts to God, The Father The Word, and The Holy Ghost. man(and woman) has a body a spirit and a soul. soma psyche and pnema. thats greek transliterations. not certian the spelling is 100%. the importance there is the need of The word/Jesus to regain the fellowship.
i find it interesting that it never came up that in genisis it also states woman was cursed how... she wants to rule over man. which woman tries to sometimes and sometimes does it quite well. in most cases a born again woman dosent do it or do it as extreme.
woman is to submit and man is to sacrifice. at least i hope thats a good use of vocabulary.

 

[Greatness4life]

"With or without the Bible"? Sounds like you'd do better in a New Age forum.

I don't thinks so!!
My walking with the Lord has taught my that and from the testimonies of others also.
I love and read the bible, and I study it but, I rely on the Holy-Spirit for understanding. Even there was a day I confessed and declared it openly to the Lord that ''If you will not teach Your words and open my eyes to see You there then, I will quit reading it'' Yes, the Lord answered my Prayer and that is why I preferred not to dig into it without Him.

More-also, the Scriptures and the Truth I know were not as a result of my studying or reading; They came to me as I waited in His presence, some of them without me knowing that they were written in the Bible until I later found them there.

The whole point is this; What we all need is not the head knowledge of the Bible but A PERSON. I will preferred to direct you to the Holy-Spirit(who is also Christ Himself) than to give you a format of how u can study the bible.

The anointing(Christ) which thou has received of Him abideth in you, and you need not that any man teach you; but as the same anointing teacheth of ALL THINGS, and is Truth, and no lie, even as it hath taught you, you shall abide in Him.

May the Lord help us and teach us His ways; may He grant us grace to know that Christ is enough above all doctrines and teachings. For there is no way we can know You Lord without Knowing YOUR OWN doctrines but when we have our own doctrine, it will keep on dragging us away from You.

Grant us grace to Embrace You where we've neglected You for our Bible Studies, so that You will be the one Leading us into all the Truth (Yourself). Even Your word(The Holy-Bible) that You have given to us, deliver us from knowing it without having an encounter with You as we read it, So that our lives will not be like those of Pharisees and Sadducee who knew the Bible(Scroll) but failed to recognized Your presence among them in Jesus name. Amen

 

[rojoloco]

I am very sorry it has come to this...I will not post another emoticon that will hurt Rojo's feelings, I apologize...for that.

I guess I missed the part on abuse with the misuse of emoticons....

I'll let it be known that my feelings were far from hurt. I've got thick skin. I think the forum mods got more offended than I did. It just helped me to understand what direction you were coming from. I knew not to dedicate as much energy into replying to you as you were apparently bored by Scripture because you already had your feelings on the matter.

My point is that I know in my heart the Lord will use whom He chooses, when He chooses.

My God is able, in control, He has a sense of humor and He loves me, even if I get scolded on a Forum.

This is very true. However, we must not leave it open ended to say that if you feel called to lead men, it must be so. Because Scripture says otherwise regarding this, I'd say you are bound to inspect and examine this "call" with the deepest scrutiny. God has used women in the past to lead but if you look, this was not the reason for using them. Even Deborah was used as a sign of judgment to show the men where they lacked. She was not used for her great skills or talents. She was used to belittle the men under her. This is certainly not the norm by God.

Here is an example of the Lord using other means to speak to a man who refused to be tender to the Lord's direction. Perhaps this might not have happened if a woman had been present...you know men don't like to stop and ask directions sometimes.


NUMBERS 22:28-30
Then the LORD opened the mouth of the donkey, and she said to Balaam, “What have I done to you, that you have struck me these three times?”
And Balaam said to the donkey, “Because you have abused me. I wish there were a sword in my hand, for now I would kill you!”
So the donkey said to Balaam, “Am I not your donkey on which you have ridden, ever since I became yours, to this day? Was I ever disposed to do this to you?”
And he said, “No.”

If the fact that the donkey was a female is the biggest thing to stand out here and is what you take away from this passage, we have other issues to discuss. What about the fact that it was a talking donkey...and he talked back to it!?!? The fact that the donkey was female really has no bearing on anything as it is diminished by pretty much every other detail in that story. The gender of the donkey was the least of all points to take away from it.

 

[RJ]

I'm not even going to bother giving a word study or touch on grammar. Instead, I will just say that of all the verses you could try to overturn this with, Genesis 1:27 is the least of them. The rest of Scripture is very clear. In fact, 1 Corinthians is the clearest of all the passages because it speaks with church structure and leadership as well as the position of women's roles within the church structure. I believe you are mistaken in your interpretation of Genesis 1:27 for reasons that I won't get into here because they are fairly irrelevant. Whatever the image may be does not change the teachings of Paul. He is very straightforward.

As for whatever Second Life is, I have no idea. What I can say is that I am doubting it is a church with church structure. If your husband allowed you to lead church, he would be in the wrong. Allowing you to teach among men in a generalized setting is perfectly fine. There is nothing wrong with a woman teaching so long as it is not done in a position of authority within the structure of Christ's Church.

Nothing in this life is perfect, I would think that a woman preaching the gospel is still the gospel and better than no preaching at all.

If it's all I had and it is the gospel, a woman can preach to me any day of the week.

I would rather have that than some pragmatist preaching to me all the time about non-gospel saving issues.

We are in the "End-Times", we need to cut to the chase, there are souls out there to be won over to the Lord.

Are you telling us, that a Woman Preacher can't win souls over to God.
Are you telling us that God has never used someone like Joyce Meyer's to convert the lost to Christianity?

What's truly important here? The message or the messenger?
Stick with the real messages of truth like forgiveness, reconcilliation, grace and salvation!

Stick with the gospel that saves and not so much emphasis on subjects that can confuse and even put others in bondage.

 

[HeIsMyFather]

Amen, Brother Joe!

To quote Greg Laurie:

God is SOVEREIGN.
He is able to do what he pleases with whomever he chooses whenever he wishes.

 

[rojoloco]

Nothing in this life is perfect, I would think that a woman preaching the gospel is still the gospel and better than no preaching at all.

If it's all I had and it is the gospel, a woman can preach to me any day of the week.

I would rather have that than some pragmatist preaching to me all the time about non-gospel saving issues.

We are in the "End-Times", we need to cut to the chase, there are souls out there to be won over to the Lord.

Are you telling us, that a Woman Preacher can't win souls over to God.
Are you telling us that God has never used someone like Joyce Meyer's to convert the lost to Christianity?

What's truly important here? The message or the messenger?
Stick with the real messages of truth like forgiveness, reconcilliation, grace and salvation!

Stick with the gospel that saves and not so much emphasis on subjects that can confuse and even put others in bondage.

And that, my friend, is the problem with America today. God gave us a standard to follow. People forgot that standard and caused harsh times for all. Now, in an effort to combat this new age, we feel we must forget God's standards and take matters into our own hands in order to be effective. You ask whether the message or the messenger is more important. I say the message but I also urge you to remember that God's structure is also a very important part of that same message. Do not pick and choose what parts you feel to be important or not based on how you feel is the best way to combat the world. God gave a standard and we are to follow it even if there are other ways we feel might work better. Us following our own standards is why we are where we are in the first place.

 

[rojoloco]

So I asked my Pastor about this, and he said, that back in those days, the Jewish culture kept the men and women separated, with men on one side and women on the other. Now according to him; some of the women did not understand what was being said and would be trying to ask their husbands to explain it to them, during the gathering which would be a shame to be so interrupting, not to mention rude, and that is why they were told to learn from their husbands at home, and keep silence in the church. There is something very irritating about someone asking questions while someone is speaking, especially from across the room, but you know she probably asked all the women around her first right? LOL

I have to say that this is a very big stretch. It is assuming women understand less than men for one thing. For another, it is assuming the woman would ask the husband instead of simply asking the teacher. Thirdly, there would be no reason to relate nature to the silence of women in the church if it were only a matter of being rude with interruptions. This is a very shallow stretch that fails to address the deeper issue of what is being conveyed in Scripture.

 

[RJ]

And that, my friend, is the problem with America today. God gave us a standard to follow. People forgot that standard and caused harsh times for all. Now, in an effort to combat this new age, we feel we must forget God's standards and take matters into our own hands in order to be effective. You ask whether the message or the messenger is more important. I say the message but I also urge you to remember that God's structure is also a very important part of that same message. Do not pick and choose what parts you feel to be important or not based on how you feel is the best way to combat the world. God gave a standard and we are to follow it even if there are other ways we feel might work better. Us following our own standards is why we are where we are in the first place.

I am 61 year old conservative and could care less about "New Age" as you put it!

You say live by God's standard, I suppose you think that we are to still called to follow the Ten Comandments today?

As you well know, I have encounterted similar discussions with you before.
For me, for sure , and , for the rest of the members of this thread to decide, you still lead by confussion and deception and continue to steer your audiance away from the truth that really matters.

You didn't hear a thing that was said in my previous thread.
In Heaven there will be no Baptists, Church of Christ, Methodist, Catholics, Presbyterians, no denominations. There will be no Male Preachers there will be no Female Preachers.

You and I will be there only because of Forgiveness and Resurrected Eternal Life and nothing else!!!!!!!!

 

[rojoloco]

And I feel NO conviction whatsoever from Holy Spirit with regards to my beliefs of women in leadership...and I know what that Holy Spirit conviction feels like.

It is also quite possible God is allowing you to err here. Scripture gives plenty of examples where God allows people to be in the wrong for quite some time. Sometimes, He corrects them while other times, He allows them to remain in error indefinitely. Just because you feel no conviction does not mean you are correct in this matter.

In fact, to place it all on conviction is to neglect our calling. We are called to be able to give a defense of all things and to know the Scriptures. Scripture is quite clear on this matter. A woman feeling she is called to pastor/lead a church, claiming drastic times call for stepping outside of the norm, etc are all examples of following experience and a deceitful heart over following the Word of God which He made available for us all. If it contradicts the Word, it is erroneous...PERIOD!

 

[RJ]

It is also quite possible God is allowing you to err here. Scripture gives plenty of examples where God allows people to be in the wrong for quite some time. Sometimes, He corrects them while other times, He allows them to remain in error indefinitely. Just because you feel no conviction does not mean you are correct in this matter.

In fact, to place it all on conviction is to neglect our calling. We are called to be able to give a defense of all things and to know the Scriptures. Scripture is quite clear on this matter. A woman feeling she is called to pastor/lead a church, claiming drastic times call for stepping outside of the norm, etc are all examples of following experience and a deceitful heart over following the Word of God which He made available for us all. If it contradicts the Word, it is erroneous...PERIOD!

Rojo,

You must feel allfulll lonely with so many disagreeing with your diatribe.

For the sake of the Lord, what does your piling on about Women Preachers have to do with any thing about the gospel of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

If it doesn't have anything to do with this gospel, why drag it on?
It's not that important.

Much worse, you calling these women as having a decietful heart.
The gall, the self-righteous, the unbelievable arrogance you have.

Again, I say, I would rather have one of these, Sisters in the Lord, preach the gospel to me than anything you may have to preach, including your version of the gospel....the truth is not in you!

I appologize to all the TJ members on this thread, If I seem to harsh!

 

[Giggles4God]

Sometimes, it is best to back out of a discussion and that is what I have done.

So, please, don't bring my name or what I have said back out.

This discussions can go on for days and weeks without anyone moving an inch.

What is the point?

I feel like I'm in an argument where I have 'surrendered' so to speak, but the person in which I am having the argument comes back at me. Again and again to put what I have said or done in my face. Tearing me up and down on an issue that I have tried to step away from.

That is all I have to say. Again, I will step out. Please abide by my wishes and don't bring me back into this discussion.

 

[happyharold4]

I think Rojo is pretty close to heart of God on this issue---Maybe a little too rigid---But he is trying to uphold a biblical principle and that is basically the Lord hasn't prepared the sisters in the Lord to userp authority over the men in the Lord---He has prepared them to do many wonderful things and for that we cherish both Him and them---But not for them to userp authority over the men, He has not prepared, called nor annointed them to do this.

In His Love

Happy

 

[rojoloco]

You say live by God's standard, I suppose you think that we are to still called to follow the Ten Comandments today?

Actually, I do claim we are to follow the 10 commandments. However, we are also not be be subject to a yoke of slavery as if following the commandments will justify us. The 10 commandments are all still valid and were all preached in the New Testament though some of them were summarized and lumped into a larger commandment. We do not fall under Levitical Law but the 10 commandments are very much so still valid.

As you well know, I have encounterted similar discussions with you before.
For me, for sure , and , for the rest of the members of this thread to decide, you still lead by confussion and deception and continue to steer your audiance away from the truth that really matters.

I'd say upholding the Word of God to the highest standard in all areas is what really matters. Who are we to pick and choose what is and is not important? Does culture really determine what applies within the Word of God? I dare say not!

You didn't hear a thing that was said in my previous thread.
In Heaven there will be no Baptists, Church of Christ, Methodist, Catholics, Presbyterians, no denominations. There will be no Male Preachers there will be no Female Preachers.

You are correct. However, we are not in Heaven. In Heaven there will be no sin or error. On this Earth, there still is. While on this Earth, we still have a structure to follow and that structure is outlined in Scripture.

You and I will be there only because of Forgiveness and Resurrected Eternal Life and nothing else!!!!!!!!

And this is why I do not place my faith in structure. I do, however, uphold the structure as being commanded by God.

 

[rojoloco]

Rojo,

You must feel allfulll lonely with so many disagreeing with your diatribe.

For the sake of the Lord, what does your piling on about Women Preachers have to do with any thing about the gospel of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

If it doesn't have anything to do with this gospel, why drag it on?
It's not that important.

Much worse, you calling these women as having a decietful heart.
The gall, the self-righteous, the unbelievable arrogance you have.

Again, I say, I would rather have one of these, Sisters in the Lord, preach the gospel to me than anything you may have to preach, including your version of the gospel....the truth is not in you!

I appologize to all the TJ members on this thread, If I seem to harsh!

Again, this is the problem. You are not upholding the Word of God. You are only upholding the parts you think matter. I believe it ALL matters and we are not to pick and choose.

 

[rojoloco]

I think Rojo is pretty close to heart of God on this issue---Maybe a little too rigid---But he is trying to uphold a biblical principle and that is basically the Lord hasn't prepared the sisters in the Lord to userp authority over the men in the Lord---He has prepared them to do many wonderful things and for that we cherish both Him and them---But not for them to userp authority over the men, He has not prepared, called nor annointed them to do this.

In His Love

Happy

Exactly. It is only because of modernism that people desire to change the Word of God, water it down, and call it inapplicable. God set a standard and it is our duty to uphold that standard despite what the world may teach. This is not an insult to one gender or the lifting up of another. It simply is what it is. Both genders have awesome responsibilities and it is a disgrace in God's eyes to cross over to the other side. God's standard must be enforced in all areas of Scripture and not only this one.

 

[RJ]

Exactly. It is only because of modernism that people desire to change the Word of God, water it down, and call it inapplicable. God set a standard and it is our duty to uphold that standard despite what the world may teach. This is not an insult to one gender or the lifting up of another. It simply is what it is. Both genders have awesome responsibilities and it is a disgrace in God's eyes to cross over to the other side. God's standard must be enforced in all areas of Scripture and not only this one.

Once again, another subject but the same outcome.

I will ask two simple questions and ask for a simple yes or no to each question.

It's is obvious that a person like Joyce Meyers is held up as an Biblical authority to many if not most of her male listerner's and she is definetly preaching to those males.

Questions:

1. Are you saying that Joyce Meyer, by preaching to Men, is not obeying the word of God? Yes or No?
2. Are you saying that God does not or has not used Joyce Meyer to win souls over to His kingdom? Yes or No?

 

[rojoloco]

Once again, another subject but the same outcome.

I will ask two simple questions and ask for a simple yes or no to each question.

It's is obvious that a person like Joyce Meyers is held up as an Biblical authority to many if not most of her male listerner's and she is definetly preaching to those males.

Questions:

1. Are you saying that Joyce Meyer, by preaching to Men, is not obeying the word of God? Yes or No?
2. Are you saying that God does not or has not used Joyce Meyer to win souls over to His kingdom? Yes or No?

I do not know anything about Joyce Meyer so I am not qualified to answer this question. I did a brief google search to see what she does but that brief "research" hardly does my answer any justice. Maybe you can enlighten me.

Instead, I will answer with possibilities and you can tell me if she fits the bill of any of them.

If she is in a position of authority over men in a church structure, she is not obeying the Word of God. If she considers herself a leader of men by them referencing herself as their pastor, she is not obeying the Word of God. If either of those are correct, it does not matter how many souls she wins. She may be doing great things but that wouldn't be out of the question. Judas and Pharaoh were absolutely evil in their actions yet they were cause for liberating countless others by both setting the Jews free as well as betraying Christ so that the plan of salvation would be fulfilled. Her intentions may be great and we may see payoff but that does not mean it is in accordance with the standard God set forth. God can use anybody regardless whether they follow His decrees or not. We are also under liberty instead of Law. However, just as we are not to use liberty as a covering for evil, we are to uphold God's commands without having an attitude of, "Well, great things are happening so it can't be all that bad."

 

[RJ]

I do not know anything about Joyce Meyer so I am not qualified to answer this question. I did a brief google search to see what she does but that brief "research" hardly does my answer any justice. Maybe you can enlighten me.

Instead, I will answer with possibilities and you can tell me if she fits the bill of any of them.

If she is in a position of authority over men in a church structure, she is not obeying the Word of God. If she considers herself a leader of men by them referencing herself as their pastor, she is not obeying the Word of God. If either of those are correct, it does not matter how many souls she wins. She may be doing great things but that wouldn't be out of the question. Judas and Pharaoh were absolutely evil in their actions yet they were cause for liberating countless others by both setting the Jews free as well as betraying Christ so that the plan of salvation would be fulfilled. Her intentions may be great and we may see payoff but that does not mean it is in accordance with the standard God set forth. God can use anybody regardless whether they follow His decrees or not. We are also under liberty instead of Law. However, just as we are not to use liberty as a covering for evil, we are to uphold God's commands without having an attitude of, "Well, great things are happening so it can't be all that bad."

I'll say one thing for you rojo, you don't disapoint me.

Again you use some other excuse to avoid my direct questions to you.

Joyce Meyer is a well know female evangelists who preaches to men in a position of authority over men,

So, I aksed my questions again:
Questions:

1. Are you saying that Joyce Meyer, by preaching to Men, is not obeying the word of God? Yes or No?
2. Are you saying that God does not or has not used Joyce Meyer to win souls over to His kingdom? Yes or No?

 

[benfaust]

It sounds like we're getting away from "what does the Bible say" and into "is it important what the Bible says." While I have always disagreed with Rojoco on the issue of women teachers in the Church, if my studying the Scriptures concerning this issue reveal that I'm wrong, then the Word of God trumps my feelings and opinions.

It wasn't that long ago that if the Bible said it, we believed it and were convicted to live by it. It always disturbs me to see more and more of the Church be so poisoned by the relativism of the world. I'm still planning to keep studying this issue and reply when I have something worth saying, but an even bigger issue has arisen here -- the authority of the Holy Scriptures over the life of the believer.

In John 1, we read that the Word of God became flesh (Jesus) and dwelled among us. If we reject the parts of Scripture we think have become obsolete, we're rejecting that part of the Word of God, and therefore are ultimately dismissing part of Jesus as no longer valid.

We've talked about knowing God, about having a relationship with Him, and about listening to His voice; and yet, the Scriptures reveal God to us, and if we close our ears to some of it or try to dismiss its relevance in our lives today, then we are shutting out the voice of God. Something will take its place (usually a "feeling" we think is God).

The Bereans were highly commended why? Because they searched their hearts daily? Because they went into a trance and tried to feel God daily? Or because they searched the Scriptures daily?

I know from my own experience that it is VERY difficult for us to humble ourselves and admit that just maybe we don't know God as well as we think we do... But if we believe the Holy Spirit tells us something, and that something is not in complete agreement with what He has already written in His Word, then it is NOT God. The Word and the Spirit are one.

Arguing about what we "feel" about this issue is a complete waste of everyone's time. If we won't dig into the Holy Scriptures and submit to what God has already said, then we have a MUCH bigger problem to deal with than women's roles in the Church, and that is our own rebellion against the Word of God.

Can we please pull it together and STUDY (the Bible) to show ourselves approved, so that we can really know God's will on this and other matters? He's already written it, and He does not change. Let's pull together on this and diligently pursue the Word of God, not our own feelings, and maybe then we'll actually get somewhere.

 

[RJ]

It sounds like we're getting away from "what does the Bible say" and into "is it important what the Bible says." While I have always disagreed with Rojoco on the issue of women teachers in the Church, if my studying the Scriptures concerning this issue reveal that I'm wrong, then the Word of God trumps my feelings and opinions.

It wasn't that long ago that if the Bible said it, we believed it and were convicted to live by it. It always disturbs me to see more and more of the Church be so poisoned by the relativism of the world. I'm still planning to keep studying this issue and reply when I have something worth saying, but an even bigger issue has arisen here -- the authority of the Holy Scriptures over the life of the believer.

In John 1, we read that the Word of God became flesh (Jesus) and dwelled among us. If we reject the parts of Scripture we think have become obsolete, we're rejecting that part of the Word of God, and therefore are ultimately dismissing part of Jesus as no longer valid.

We've talked about knowing God, about having a relationship with Him, and about listening to His voice; and yet, the Scriptures reveal God to us, and if we close our ears to some of it or try to dismiss its relevance in our lives today, then we are shutting out the voice of God. Something will take its place (usually a "feeling" we think is God).

The Bereans were highly commended why? Because they searched their hearts daily? Because they went into a trance and tried to feel God daily? Or because they searched the Scriptures daily?

I know from my own experience that it is VERY difficult for us to humble ourselves and admit that just maybe we don't know God as well as we think we do... But if we believe the Holy Spirit tells us something, and that something is not in complete agreement with what He has already written in His Word, then it is NOT God. The Word and the Spirit are one.

Arguing about what we "feel" about this issue is a complete waste of everyone's time. If we won't dig into the Holy Scriptures and submit to what God has already said, then we have a MUCH bigger problem to deal with than women's roles in the Church, and that is our own rebellion against the Word of God.

Can we please pull it together and STUDY (the Bible) to show ourselves approved, so that we can really know God's will on this and other matters? He's already written it, and He does not change. Let's pull together on this and diligently pursue the Word of God, not our own feelings, and maybe then we'll actually get somewhere.

There is no rebellion from me. It's all about God's word but it has to be kept in the context of the New Covenant and the gospel, we live under and are are subject to the New Covenant.


And, I don't mean the New Testament. Some of the New Testament does not fall under the New Covenant. Jesus shows us this by how he supported "Forgiveness" before and after the New Covenant:

• Before the new Covenant, He said this about forgiveness (paraphrasing): " Forgive one another or your God in Heaven will not forgive you", forgiveness by the "Law', the law of doing or requirement.
• After the New Covenant, Jesus Christ said this about forgiveness (paraphrasing) " Forgive one another as your Father in Heaven has forgiven you", forgiveness by the fruits of the Spirit and not by the Law.

God Himself said that He abolished the Old Covenant "law" the law of requirements, the law controlled by the flesh and replaced it with the New Covenant "Grace". Grace is not of the flesh but of the Spirit.

I believe that rojo is stuck in the "Law" on a lot of issues like Election and Women Preachers for instance.

Rojo would say that a Woman preaching and an authority over men is wrong, he's even had some choice adjectives for such women. For me that's the Law not Grace.

God says through St. Paul that under Grace: " Everything is permissible- but not everything is beneficial". Everything is permissible- but not everything is constructive" 1 COR 10:23

Women Preachers, and we have many, have help to win many souls over to the Lord.
Is anyone telling me that our God will not accept the the souls of those won over by the preaching of a woman, even if they were in a role of authority over men?

Is anyone telling me that the winning of these souls through the preachings of a woman is not "beneficial" or "constructive" as in the above verse?

Praise God for His Grace and praise God for Women Preachers that are a conduit for the salavtion of lost souls to the Kindom of God!