Jews and Muslims, will they be saved?

[jiggyfly]

"And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased." - Matthew 3:17

That's all that needs to be said. There is only one God. Christ is the son.

The Father - Creator
The Son - Messiah and Son (First creation of God)
Holy Spirit - What we all have

Everyone is from God but we aren't God Himself for we don't know what He thinks.

"Even the son doesn't know when the time will come."

This applies that the son (Jesus) has a separate mind from God like we do. Only God knows when the time of Judgement will come.

Where do you find in the scriptures that Jesus the Son of God was created?

 

[LifeinJesus]

Where do you find in the scriptures that Jesus the Son of God was created?

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. -- Colossians 1:15

He's called son for a reason.

 

[Boanerges]

1. Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Thy throne Ho' Theos= thy throne most High God. That is the Father calling Jesus God Almighty= selah.

2. Col 1:15 WhoG3739 isG2076 the imageG1504 of theG3588 invisibleG517 God,G2316 the firstbornG4416 of everyG3956 creature:G2937
Prototokos literally means first brought forth.

From the Vines Expository Dictionary of the New Testament:
First-begotten, Firstborn

prototokos (G4416), "firstborn" (from protos, "first," and tikto, "to beget"), is used of Christ as born of the Virgin Mary, Luk_2:7; further, in His relationship to the Father, expressing His priority to, and preeminence over, creation, not in the sense of being the "first" to be born. It is used occasionally of superiority of position in the OT, see Exo_4:22; Deu_21:16, Deu_21:17, the prohibition being against the evil of assigning the privileged position of the "firstborn" to one born subsequently to the "first" child.
The five passages in the NT relating to Christ may be set forth chronologically thus: (a) Col_1:15, where His eternal relationship with the Father is in view, and the clause means both that He was the "Firstborn" before all creation and that He Himself produced creation (the genitive case being objective, as Col_1:16 makes clear); (b) Col_1:18 and Rev_1:5, in reference to His resurrection; (c) Rom_8:29, His position in relationship to the church; (d) Heb_1:6, RV, His second advent (the RV "when He again bringeth in," puts "again" in the right place, the contrast to His first advent, at His birth, being implied); cf. Psa_89:27. The word is used in the plural, in Heb_11:28, of the firstborn sons in the families of the Egyptians, and in Heb_12:23, of the members of the Church.
Note: With (a) cf. Joh_1:30, "He was before me," lit., "He was first (protos) of me," i.e., "in regard to me," expressing all that is involved in His preexistence and priority.

 

[LifeinJesus]

The Bible is literal Boanerges except for the books of poetry and songs. There are no codes and verses are not meant to be translated. With Heb 1:8, you come out with "these words mean this and that" but instead you should ask yourself:

"Can God be both His own father and son?"

With God nothing is impossible but that's just plain ridiculous. God spoke to Jesus after His baptism, so are we to assume that the dialogue went like this:

Jesus: You are my own begotten son of whom I am well pleased with.
Jesus: Yes I am. Thank you father.
Jesus: That's okay my son.
St.John: O_O

I think the bystanders would have been quite astounded to say the least.

I believe Jesus is part of God as are we all but He is not God incarnated. Jesus told us to love God with all our heart and soul. If He was God Himself, He would have said "Love me with all your heart and soul for I am the LORD."

Jesus is one being and God is one being. The only thing I agree with is that the Holy Spirit is God and God's true nature.

John 14:28 "Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I."

Proverbs 8:22 "The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old."

Matthew 24:36 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

If we go by this verse:

1 Corinthians 8:6 "But we know that there is only one God, the Father, who created everything, and we live for him. And there is only one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom God made everything and through whom we have been given life."

Then God created everything through Jesus but this still doesn't make Jesus God and this verse acknowledges that.

I don't know how God created the universe but I know he is one being and the Son is one being. If you call Jesus God, you might as well call Gabriel God, you also might as well call all the angels God.

By applying that Jesus existed always along with God, you are implying that there are two gods.

Also:


John 20:17 "Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

God doesn't have a god. God always was and always has been and thus this verse should conclude that Jesus was the Son of God and worshiped God like all the beings of Heaven.

"If Jesus is regarded co-equal and co-eternal, as professed by the Trinitarians, and if the Begotten Son came after the act of BEGETTING, that Negates the Doctrine of Trinity.

If Jesus was co-eternal in time with God, then that Negates Jesus being a "Begotten Son of God"..."

Jesus is the begotten Son of God, He was made by God.

 

[Hekuran]

From Luke 5

One day Jesus was teaching, and Pharisees and teachers of the law were sitting there. They had come from every village of Galilee and from Judea and Jerusalem. And the power of the Lord was with Jesus to heal the sick. Some men came carrying a paralyzed man on a mat and tried to take him into the house to lay him before Jesus. 19 When they could not find a way to do this because of the crowd, they went up on the roof and lowered him on his mat through the tiles into the middle of the crowd, right in front of Jesus.

When Jesus saw their faith, he said, “Friend, your sins are forgiven.”

The Pharisees and the teachers of the law began thinking to themselves, “Who is this fellow who speaks blasphemy? Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

Jesus knew what they were thinking and asked, “Why are you thinking these things in your hearts? Which is easier: to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’? But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the paralyzed man, “I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home.” Immediately he stood up in front of them, took what he had been lying on and went home praising God. Everyone was amazed and gave praise to God. They were filled with awe and said, “We have seen remarkable things today.”​

Jesus here assumes God's authority. If Jesus is not God, then what by what authority does he forgive the paralyzed man's sins? And if Jesus is blaspheming by usurping God's authority, by what power does he heal the same man?

I can see only two possible logical conclusions. First, Jesus is God; second Jesus' power to heal is demonic. I am convinced that Jesus is God.

Jesus does not make an explicit claim here to be God, but the claim is implicit in every word and action in this passage. If you read the rest of the chapter, the same theme continues. I find it impossible to make sense of the gospels if Jesus is not God.

 

[jiggyfly]

The Bible is literal Boanerges except for the books of poetry and songs. There are no codes and verses are not meant to be translated. With Heb 1:8, you come out with "these words mean this and that" but instead you should ask yourself:

If the whole bible minus the poetry and songs is meant to be literal why did Jesus speak in parables?

 

[Boanerges]

Can God be both His own father and son?" With God nothing is impossible but that's just plain ridiculous. God spoke to Jesus after His baptism, so are we to assume that the dialogue went like this:

Your doctrine is based on assumption mine on scripture. The Lord put just enough in the bible to confound "theologists" who like to look at only part of what scripture reveals. Jesus was man (created) in His body but also God before time began. If you wish to ignore either of those you will either have to ignore chosen verses or use scissors on your bible to make a few adjustments- LOL.

 

[LifeinJesus]

Your doctrine is based on assumption mine on scripture. The Lord put just enough in the bible to confound "theologists" who like to look at only part of what scripture reveals. Jesus was man (created) in His body but also God before time began. If you wish to ignore either of those you will either have to ignore chosen verses or use scissors on your bible to make a few adjustments- LOL.

I actually presented various verses showing that Jesus is the son of God, you've presented nothing.

From Luke 5

One day Jesus was teaching, and Pharisees and teachers of the law were sitting there. They had come from every village of Galilee and from Judea and Jerusalem. And the power of the Lord was with Jesus to heal the sick. Some men came carrying a paralyzed man on a mat and tried to take him into the house to lay him before Jesus. 19 When they could not find a way to do this because of the crowd, they went up on the roof and lowered him on his mat through the tiles into the middle of the crowd, right in front of Jesus.

When Jesus saw their faith, he said, “Friend, your sins are forgiven.”

The Pharisees and the teachers of the law began thinking to themselves, “Who is this fellow who speaks blasphemy? Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

Jesus knew what they were thinking and asked, “Why are you thinking these things in your hearts? Which is easier: to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’? But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the paralyzed man, “I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home.” Immediately he stood up in front of them, took what he had been lying on and went home praising God. Everyone was amazed and gave praise to God. They were filled with awe and said, “We have seen remarkable things today.”​

Jesus here assumes God's authority. If Jesus is not God, then what by what authority does he forgive the paralyzed man's sins? And if Jesus is blaspheming by usurping God's authority, by what power does he heal the same man?

I can see only two possible logical conclusions. First, Jesus is God; second Jesus' power to heal is demonic. I am convinced that Jesus is God.

Jesus does not make an explicit claim here to be God, but the claim is implicit in every word and action in this passage. If you read the rest of the chapter, the same theme continues. I find it impossible to make sense of the gospels if Jesus is not God.

Then why would Jesus later be calling God "his God" as shown in the gospel of John? The scripture states that Jesus was given God's authority and that God sent him to rule over us as the revelation also states.

Elijah was given authority from God to raise the dead just like Jesus was given authority to forgive people.

"But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins."

God can't give Himself authority, HE HAS authority already. God is not the Son of Man, God always was and always has been, He is not begotten. God gave Jesus, His BEGOTTEN Son, authority. Authority has to come from someone.

God is not an idiot. He is wise and no human truly knows what wisdom is like. So why would God speak in riddles by calling Himself the Son of Man and that He gave Himself authority? How does one give themselves authority when they made authority? LOL.

God: *Creates laws*
God: I now bestow these laws unto myself so that I may carry them out.
God: Thank you.
God: No problem Son of Man.
God: That's okay Father.

As funny as it may be, this did not happen, God answers to no one and doesn't question Himself. He's the greatest and creator of all.

God doesn't worship anyone and if he worshiped Himself, He'd be breaking his commandments. God can do anything but He has His limits. He worships no one, WE worship Him as does Jesus and the angels. The Bible clearly states that there is but one God and God Himself states this numerous times. Jesus cannot be God for He has a separate mind from God and speaks to God and is SEPARATE in BEING from God. He's connected to God in some way which is why Issiah calls Him "God is with us" but He is not God. Can you worship Jesus and then God? Jesus states He is separate from God when He said we must love God with all our hearts and soul and that "The Father" is greater than He. So we can either assume that Jesus was created and was the first born of all creation and the last of creation (since He will come to destroy the Earth and bring a new one) or that Jesus is a lesser god and always existed meaning that there are two gods which The Bible clearly does away with.

If the whole bible minus the poetry and songs is meant to be literal why did Jesus speak in parables?

Poetry, they are poetry in a way. But we're talking about events that happened in The Bible, they are all literal as are the people.

 

[jiggyfly]

Poetry, they are poetry in a way. But we're talking about events that happened in The Bible, they are all literal as are the people.

You didn't answer the question. Why did Jesus speak in parables rather than literal?

 

[Christ4Ever]

Christ is the son of God not God himself. For God said to Jesus "You are my own begotten son of whom I am well pleased with."

In my latest thread, I prove that Islam does indeed teach that Jesus is the son of God but contradicts itself in the process proving that the Koran is not from God (as we knew, Christ is the only way). Muslims believe in the virgin birth, so they acknowledge that it was God who made the Christ - so they unknowingly admit Christ is the son, they don't however acknowledge that Christ was the first creation of God.

LifeInJesus, you never did answer my questions  which I’ll quote again. “When you ask the question “Will they have one last chance to accept Jesus as messiah?” What exactly do you mean by that? When does this “one last chance” occur?”
Now as far as Jesus Christ not being God as you mention. “Christ is the son of God not God himself. For God said to Jesus "You are my own begotten son of whom I am well pleased with."” I guess we can agree to disagree, because another supporting verse that you could use is John 14:28. However I would reference you to John 10:30 in which He states “I and the Father are one.” Yet still you might say that by identifying Himself as “Son” that He was saying that he was not God somehow less than God. If you decide to ignore John 10:30 then when He identifies Himself as “Son of Man” Mat 8:20, Mat 9:6, Mat 12:8, Mat 14:40 is He saying that He is less than man? There are enough scripture references John 1:1-2, Col 1:15-19
John 8:58 – “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
That our Lord by this expression asserted his divinity and eternal existence, as the great I AM, appears evident from the use of the present tense, instead of the past tense, from its being in answer to the Jews, who enquired whether he had seen Abraham, and from its being thus understood by the multitude that He was identifying himself as God. I think they go a little angry with him. In fact to such a degree that they took up stones to stone him. The ancient Jews not only believed that the Messiah was superior to and Lord of all the patriarchs, and even of angels, but that his celestial nature existed with God from whom it emanated, before the creation, and that the creation was effected by his ministry. Ex 3:14, Isa 44:6, Isa 46:9
In turn Isa 48:11 “For mine own sake, even for my own, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? And I will not give my glory unto another.”
The main point being that God does not share His glory with anyone else. Now look at John 17:5 “And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.”
Now how about Revelation 4:8, 15:3-4, 19:4 who is being talked about here?
Then you get into who is worthy to be worshiped? Ex 34:14 we know God is to be worshiped and no other gods. Acts 10:25 by the example of Peter we know man is not to be worshiped. How about Jesus? Mat 8:2, Mat 9:18, Mat 14:33, Mat 15:25 Read Luke 17:13-18 looks to me like scripture reflects that Jesus is allowing Himself to be worshiped.
So all in all, I’d have to lean to acknowledging Jesus as God in the flesh. This may not change your mind, but at least hopefully, it will show you that trying to understand “Fully God” and “Fully Man” is a hard one to comprehend. I guess I will leave you now with a verse that kind of says it all for me 1 Tim 3:16 says it “And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.”

 

[LifeinJesus]

You didn't answer the question. Why did Jesus speak in parables rather than literal?

Oh I answered but not to your sense.

Anyhow, Jesus used parables occasionally to teach but various other times, he quoted from scripture. When He was asked "Why do you eat sacred food?" He quoted how King David had eaten sacred food only meant for priests too and went onto justify His action. In fact, the most important speech Christ ever did was quote how He was the fulfillment of the scripture.

LifeInJesus, you never did answer my questions  which I’ll quote again. “When you ask the question “Will they have one last chance to accept Jesus as messiah?” What exactly do you mean by that? When does this “one last chance” occur?”
Now as far as Jesus Christ not being God as you mention. “Christ is the son of God not God himself. For God said to Jesus "You are my own begotten son of whom I am well pleased with."” I guess we can agree to disagree, because another supporting verse that you could use is John 14:28. However I would reference you to John 10:30 in which He states “I and the Father are one.” Yet still you might say that by identifying Himself as “Son” that He was saying that he was not God somehow less than God. If you decide to ignore John 10:30 then when He identifies Himself as “Son of Man” Mat 8:20, Mat 9:6, Mat 12:8, Mat 14:40 is He saying that He is less than man? There are enough scripture references John 1:1-2, Col 1:15-19
John 8:58 – “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
That our Lord by this expression asserted his divinity and eternal existence, as the great I AM, appears evident from the use of the present tense, instead of the past tense, from its being in answer to the Jews, who enquired whether he had seen Abraham, and from its being thus understood by the multitude that He was identifying himself as God. I think they go a little angry with him. In fact to such a degree that they took up stones to stone him. The ancient Jews not only believed that the Messiah was superior to and Lord of all the patriarchs, and even of angels, but that his celestial nature existed with God from whom it emanated, before the creation, and that the creation was effected by his ministry. Ex 3:14, Isa 44:6, Isa 46:9
In turn Isa 48:11 “For mine own sake, even for my own, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? And I will not give my glory unto another.”
The main point being that God does not share His glory with anyone else. Now look at John 17:5 “And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.”
Now how about Revelation 4:8, 15:3-4, 19:4 who is being talked about here?
Then you get into who is worthy to be worshiped? Ex 34:14 we know God is to be worshiped and no other gods. Acts 10:25 by the example of Peter we know man is not to be worshiped. How about Jesus? Mat 8:2, Mat 9:18, Mat 14:33, Mat 15:25 Read Luke 17:13-18 looks to me like scripture reflects that Jesus is allowing Himself to be worshiped.
So all in all, I’d have to lean to acknowledging Jesus as God in the flesh. This may not change your mind, but at least hopefully, it will show you that trying to understand “Fully God” and “Fully Man” is a hard one to comprehend. I guess I will leave you now with a verse that kind of says it all for me 1 Tim 3:16 says it “And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.”

As I stated before, Jesus was given authority by God to forgive people just like He received GOD'S spirit but He is not God for they are obviously SEPARATE in BEING from one another as Jesus Himself calls God "His God". God acted through Jesus which is why we can assume that Jesus was God with us but He is a separate being and begotten. God was with us through Jesus just like God is with us through us as Christ Himself states. By accepting Christ, The Holy Spirit comes to us and we become brothers/sisters of Christ and children of God.


So is God His own God? How can that be? I believe the verses which call Jesus God are 100% correct but they mean it not in the way of Jesus being one with God but with Jesus having God's spirit. He was the first to receive The Holy Spirit (i.e God). Concerning Jesus's nature however, I don't believe He always existed, I believe he was the first created which is why he is called the High Priest of Heaven. The Bible says Jesus is God and then it says He is not God and that Jesus worships God and calls Him "greater than I" if they are the same being, how could God be greater if they are both the same and ONE? I think the logical conclusion is what I said. And yes, Jesus is Son of Man as well, Jesus is half flesh (Son of Man) and half spirit (Son of God) and keep in mind that "Man" back then meant Mankind (i.e human race). Otherwise you have to admit that The Bible contradicts itself and then the Islamics come in and say:

"Aha! WE WIN! *Starts doing a little dance*"

Also keep in mind that I believe all who accept Jesus as Saviour and DIVINE (He's divine - God Like - but not God) Lord are saved. That means Catholics, Greek Orthodox, Protestants and so on who believe Jesus died for us are saved. Saying Jesus is a mortal is not the way because then you're calling Jesus a liar, He Himself states He is not of this world but at the moment, we are still arguing as to WHO exactly He is. And believing that He never died for us or rose from the dead, then that goes against scripture.

So what say you now?


Moving onto the "last chance" you keep mentioning:

So you don't think before the end days - there will be no chance of salvation for them? Maybe. The parable of Lazarus and the rich man seems to state that they have Jesus, they don't need anyone else and if they can't believe Jesus, they can't believe anyone else. I just feel so sorry for them. They accept God and worship God, why can't they accept Jesus as Lord and Saviour? Messianic Jews' existence has made me somewhat happy that some have finally accepted Jesus as Saviour.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Oh I answered but not to your sense.

Anyhow, Jesus used parables occasionally to teach but various other times, he quoted from scripture. When He was asked "Why do you eat sacred food?" He quoted how King David had eaten sacred food only meant for priests too and went onto justify His action. In fact, the most important speech Christ ever did was quote how He was the fulfillment of the scripture.



As I stated before, Jesus was given authority by God to forgive people just like He received GOD'S spirit but He is not God for they are obviously SEPARATE in BEING from one another as Jesus Himself calls God "His God". God acted through Jesus which is why we can assume that Jesus was God with us but He is a separate being and begotten. God was with us through Jesus just like God is with us through us as Christ Himself states. By accepting Christ, The Holy Spirit comes to us and we become brothers/sisters of Christ and children of God.


So is God His own God? How can that be? I believe the verses which call Jesus God are 100% correct but they mean it not in the way of Jesus being one with God but with Jesus having God's spirit. He was the first to receive The Holy Spirit (i.e God). Concerning Jesus's nature however, I don't believe He always existed, I believe he was the first created which is why he is called the High Priest of Heaven. The Bible says Jesus is God and then it says He is not God and that Jesus worships God and calls Him "greater than I" if they are the same being, how could God be greater if they are both the same and ONE? I think the logical conclusion is what I said. And yes, Jesus is Son of Man as well, Jesus is half flesh (Son of Man) and half spirit (Son of God) and keep in mind that "Man" back then meant Mankind (i.e human race). Otherwise you have to admit that The Bible contradicts itself and then the Islamics come in and say:

"Aha! WE WIN! *Starts doing a little dance*"

Also keep in mind that I believe all who accept Jesus as Saviour and DIVINE (He's divine - God Like - but not God) Lord are saved. That means Catholics, Greek Orthodox, Protestants and so on who believe Jesus died for us are saved. Saying Jesus is a mortal is not the way because then you're calling Jesus a liar, He Himself states He is not of this world but at the moment, we are still arguing as to WHO exactly He is. And believing that He never died for us or rose from the dead, then that goes against scripture.

So what say you now?


Moving onto the "last chance" you keep mentioning:

So you don't think before the end days - there will be no chance of salvation for them? Maybe. The parable of Lazarus and the rich man seems to state that they have Jesus, they don't need anyone else and if they can't believe Jesus, they can't believe anyone else. I just feel so sorry for them. They accept God and worship God, why can't they accept Jesus as Lord and Saviour? Messianic Jews' existence has made me somewhat happy that some have finally accepted Jesus as Saviour.

Sad part is that Moslems do their dance anyway, and their winning prize is not one I would want. All I have to present them is the Gospel. This is as you know what we were told to do. Attempting to use man’s wisdom which is what you and I are doing here, to change anyone’s mind to the contrary will not save them. It didn’t save you or me. What I always keep in mind is that we do have an eternity to know both. The difference is that I’m not interjecting what I believe scripture is saying, only what scripture is saying. And Moslems can’t have our Jesus, because they are unwilling to accept the atoning sacrifice of His death. Take away His sacrifice and you take away of the redemptive qualities that lie therein. That is the part they cannot accept, and that is His death on the cross. No sadly, they won’t accept our Jesus and this to their own condemnation. We have been redeemed and they have not and this by their own admission. Continue to pray for them. They’ll not be saved collectively, no, but individually there is hope for each and every one of them.
By the way, I mentioned your question only because you did not answer it in your last post back to me. Phrasing it as you did, you made it sound as if there was some second chance, separate from the one we all have while drawing breath on this earth in either choosing Jesus Christ or not. I could only assume you were referencing some other opportunity separate from the one we all have. I apologize it might have seemed a bit anal. If I think someone has come up with something new, I’ll usually ask. I guess you can say asked & answered. Thanks.

 

[LifeinJesus]

Well honestly, some scripture has made me think that maybe Jesus is God Himself but some of it makes me think He is a separate creation. Who cares anyway? I know Jesus died for us and I've accepted him as messiah and Saviour and to me, that's what is important.

Islam is false because their are BIG errors in their alleged book from God. Only Christ is the way as we both know.

 

[Montovine]

Are all Gods the same

Does Allah mean god? Yes it does. All religions have their god even religions that don't necessarily believe in a living God, believe that there is a universal spirit which we are all apart of. The Muslims believe in a god who created the universe. The Jews believe in Jehovah God of the Old Testament but deny Jesus as the messiah. All religions have a semblance of truth. Gandhi, believed in god, but he believed all paths lead to god and that all gods were the same. Bud-ah, was a god. There are many gods, but only one true God.

I had a friend who said to me, if God exists, why doesn't he just make it easy on everyone and show us. My response was that he did, in the person of Jesus Christ. If Jesus Christ is who he claimed himself to be, then there are not many paths to God, not all religions believe in the same god, and there is only one redemption for man, and that is Jesus Christ.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Well honestly, some scripture has made me think that maybe Jesus is God Himself but some of it makes me think He is a separate creation. Who cares anyway? I know Jesus died for us and I've accepted him as messiah and Saviour and to me, that's what is important.

Islam is false because their are BIG errors in their alleged book from God. Only Christ is the way as we both know.

Now that is well said my Brother In Christ
Many blessing and keep the faith!
2 Cor 1:12

 

[David777]

Dear LifeInJesus

Colossians 1: "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities all things have been created through Him and for Him.
He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything."

Genesis 1, God created the heavens and the Earth.

One in the same. Notice the bold print. Christ is the God in the Old Testament. Colossians says He is. I had to learn this myself. It is quite extraordinary what you find when you start to search through the scripture to prove Christ is God. There is much more. Hope this helps. Any problems just post.

 

[ctsracing]

LifeinJesus, I think you are getting 'lost', or getting a misconception of Jesus because of this incredible act of INCARNATION - when God became man. It's something that is not fully comprendible to the mind of man. Jesus is described as the "Son of God' ONLY because of His incarnation. Something amazing happened at the moment when God became man (Phil. 2:6-8 / John 1:1,2,14).

This is going to be very poor explanation, but the 'title relationship' changed in the Trinity (and also the relationship between God & Mankind) when Incarnation took place. I guess Isaiah 9:6 would be a good verse for this: "For unto us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on His shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace".
God is Triune - 3 in One. Jehovah, Jesus, Holy Spirit. All 3 in harmony. All three deity - Omnipresent, Omiscient, & Omnipotent. When God (Jesus) became man (Heb 2:14-18) the 'title relationship' altered between Jehovah and Jesus, and between God and Mankind too. Jesus was still 'fully God', but He was 'fully man' too.
I know when the NT uses phrases like "Son of God" and statements from Jesus calling God "Father", and the Father calling Jesus "my begotten Son"; we get the sense that Jesus was 'created', or 'brought into being'. But this is all a reflection, or a result of Incarnation. Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was born, I am" (John 8:58). The gospel of John is filled with statements of 'the Son' & 'the Father' as being one; and many other NT verses stating the same.

 

[ctsracing]

Hey! I thought of a better analogy of Jesus being Incarnated: being fully God, & yet fully man. It is very much like the TV show, "Undercover Boss".
It is about 3 brothers that are equal owners in a huge company they built & created. There was a huge rift between owners and employees. Brother #2 decided to go 'undercover' and become an employee. Although He still maintained full ownership (deity), He withheld those rights, and did not chose to exercise nor exploit His position . It also changed the relationship between the other 2 brothers and Him as to His 'Title'. What changed even more dramaticaly is the relationship between 'management' and 'workers'; Jesus was now fully an employee. He was one of them now; and a new relationship between owner and employee was formed and made possible.

Jesus was never created - or 'came about'. He always was, is, and will be God.

 

[LifeinJesus]

So is God His own God? How can that be? I believe the verses which call Jesus God are 100% correct but they mean it not in the way of Jesus being one with God but with Jesus having God's spirit. He was the first to receive The Holy Spirit (i.e God). Concerning Jesus's nature however, I don't believe He always existed, I believe he was the first created which is why he is called the High Priest of Heaven. The Bible says Jesus is God and then it says He is not God and that Jesus worships God and calls Him "greater than I" if they are the same being, how could God be greater if they are both the same and ONE? I think the logical conclusion is what I said. And yes, Jesus is Son of Man as well, Jesus is half flesh (Son of Man) and half spirit (Son of God) and keep in mind that "Man" back then meant Mankind (i.e human race).

This is why I cannot be sure about Jesus's nature but all of this irrelevant. What's important was that He lived a sinless life and died so that we may be saved.

 

[ctsracing]

"So is God His own God"?
I like that statement. - and is true!

The very basics are that we are indebted to God. It is Him only that we have sinned against. No one else can provide a 'cancelation of that debt except God. Rom. 3:23-25 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented Him as a sacrifice of atonement through faith in His blood."
If Jesus is not God; then everyone of us is damned.

Look at it this way: you take out a 11 trillion dollar loan against Fiirst National Bank of God. You don't have the $$ to pay it off (nor does anyone else), or even make monthly payments on. You must make payment in full or First National bank of God will forclose on you. You are bankrupt! But wait!...

A member of the First National bank of God has mercy on you and paid your debt for you. - No one else has the authority to cancel that dept except a member of the First National Bank of God. Jesus canceled our debt on the cross to those who put their faith & trust in Him.
Again, if Jesus is not God; I, you, and everyone else who puts their faith in Jesus are eternally bankrupt. Jesus must be a 'member' of the party to who we are indebted to, to be able to cancel that dept. Otherwise, He is a fraud and we still face forclosure on our soul.

Like you said: "God is His own God". God told Moses: "I am that I am."
Gen. 1:26 "And God said, "let US make man in our image, and in our likeness..."
Rev. 1:8 Jesus: "I am the Alpha and Omega, who is, and who was. and who is to come, the Almighty!"