does anyone spend time with the old testament?
- Thread starter HappySoul
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hischildaswell
Member
Wow!
Must we,
The words of God, that must be P-R-I-M-A-R-Y, without them we have no JESUS, to separate them is utter foolishness!!!!!!!!!
<TABLE id=table_bible cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR id=Act_20_27_1038027><TD class=vRefb>Act 20:27</TD><TD class=vDispb>For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Jesus is Saviour, but only because he has been revealed as such in the Word of God.
<TABLE id=table_bible cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR id=2Ti_3_16_1128016><TD class=vRefa>2Ti 3:16</TD><TD class=vDispa>All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
P.S. Do not ignore the OT, it all has purpose, linger in psalms and proverbs, I discovered shortly after my salvation, that there are 31 proverbs and 150 psalms, that is 1 Proverb & 5 Psalms a day(119 all by itself for day 31)
Must we,
The words of God, that must be P-R-I-M-A-R-Y, without them we have no JESUS, to separate them is utter foolishness!!!!!!!!!
<TABLE id=table_bible cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR id=Act_20_27_1038027><TD class=vRefb>Act 20:27</TD><TD class=vDispb>For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Jesus is Saviour, but only because he has been revealed as such in the Word of God.
<TABLE id=table_bible cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR id=2Ti_3_16_1128016><TD class=vRefa>2Ti 3:16</TD><TD class=vDispa>All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
P.S. Do not ignore the OT, it all has purpose, linger in psalms and proverbs, I discovered shortly after my salvation, that there are 31 proverbs and 150 psalms, that is 1 Proverb & 5 Psalms a day(119 all by itself for day 31)
Iceman
Member
Well you have to ask, "What is faith?"
The Old Testament is actually incredibly important for any extended reading of the New Testament.
What you need to understand is that the Jewish identity that is within the OT is addressed within the NT. There are some parts of the NT that you can just never fully understand until you've come to a decent understanding of what the OT is, how it functions, and what it says about God and about his people.
just-a-servant
Member
Keep reading it anyway, one day it will begin to click and you'll understand how it all relates together. The scriptures point to Jesus from beginning to end; It would seem a shame to only read half the story.
IMHO,
just-a-servant
LifeinJesus
Member
Then you apply limits to God. If God can create the universe, can He not create man? If God can create man, can He not make a donkey talk? If God can create, cannot He not destroy? If God can destroy, cannot He not save? If God can make virgins conceive, then why limit His abilities?
Deny the OT and then you deny the NT. The OT prophecies about our Saviour - Jesus. If you call it fake, then who said Jesus was coming? The NT wouldn't make sense then.
Modern Day False Christian's View:
The universe came into being but God never designed anything, He allowed worlds to form. He then allowed life to evolve and when humans came, He watched and watched as they started worshiping false gods. One day, God made Jesus and Jews at the same time and then everyone started believing.
Jews existed before the time of Jesus, obviously God had contacted them. If you don't believe in the OT, then when did God contact us? You make your own religion when denying the OT. Don't do it. By denying the OT, you call the disciples liars when they reported that Elijah and Moses came down to Jesus when He went to pray and then what's to stop you from denying the rest of the NT?
Jesus raised the dead. Jesus walked on water. Jesus ascended to Heaven. Jesus fed thousands from only a few loaves of bread. Jesus died but was raised from the dead. Jesus made blind people see. Jesus cursed a fig tree and it died (so His words can kill and save). When a roman soldier asked Jesus to heal his servant, Jesus said that it was already done. Jesus told the disabled to get up and walk and they did.
Compare these amazing miracles to miracles performed by prophets in the OT and they seem more amazing. The only one who matched them was Elijah who had to pray to God for the dead to be raised.
Why are these miracles not "bull"?
P.S
I once thought what you did and I once believed in evolution but after studying evolution, I saw the flaws in it. Have a look at this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_artifacts_significant_to_the_Bible
These artifacts prove that the OT is accurate. With most of it being accurate, why can't Genesis be accurate when evolution is obviously flawed and naturally impossible.
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Coconut
Member
Hallelujah amen!
The Old and New Testaments are books of Testimony ...but neither the OT or the NT are necessary to meet Jesus...He is not bound in the book --it is simply Christ, who is the Living Word, in you, your hope of glory!
Col 1:26 This secret was hidden throughout the ages and generations but has now been revealed to his saints,
Col 1:27 to whom God wanted to make known the glorious riches of this secret among the gentiles-which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
Remember the "righteous who lived by faith", and the "righteous who were justified by faith" whom both Testaments speak about... never held the inspired written word in their hands for the majority of human history...
To those who did hold the written word in their hands, Jesus said this:
Joh 5:37 Moreover, the Father who sent me has himself testified on my behalf. You have never heard his voice or seen his appearance,
Joh 5:38 nor do you have his word abiding in you, because you do not believe in the one whom he sent.
Joh 5:39 You examine the Scriptures carefully because you suppose that in them you have eternal life. Yet they testify about me.
Joh 5:40 But you are not willing to come to me to have life.
Jaareshiah
Member
In order to understand God's eternal purposes regarding the earth and mankind, which directly involves Jesus Christ, it is necessary to grasp what is commonly called the Old Testament. For example, without comprehending the account of Adam and Eve's rebellion in the Garden of Eden, the reason for Jesus Christ providing a "ransom" for mankind has no basis. Jesus himself said: "Just as the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his soul a ransom in exchange for many.”(Matt 20:28) Why did Jesus have to provide a "ransom in exchange for many" ?
Simply put, Jesus had to buy back what Adam (as found in the "Old Testament") lost for all of his offspring - life forever on a paradise earth in perfection among those whom the Bible calls "meek" ones.(Matt 5:5; Ps 37:11) It should also be noted that Jesus ransom was unique, for the apostle Paul wrote: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all."(1 Tim 2:5, 6) Paul used a Greek word that is only once in the Bible, an·ti´ly·tron (from an·ti´, “against; in correspondence to; in place of,” and ly´tron, “ransom [price paid]”), meaning "corresponding ransom".
Thus, Jesus, as a perfect man, provided a ransom that corresponded equally to someone prior to him, the perfect man Adam. If a person does not examine the Hebrew Scriptures, commonly called the Old Testament, they cannot grasp why Jesus ransom was absolutely necessary for us and his vital role in the outworking of God's everlasting purposes.(2 Cor 1:20)
What the apostle Paul wrote: "It is even so written: “The first man Adam became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.", would have no meaning unless a person understood who Adam was and the effects of his rebellion has caused for his offspring, sin and death.(Isa 25:7, 8)
We would not know where we came from, why we are here, and where we are going without closely examining the Hebrew Scriptures.(Gen 1-3) Jehovah God gave the very first prophecy at Genesis 3:15, which is directly tied in with Jesus Christ through Abraham's lineage.(Gen 22:18)
Paul's words: "Consequently the Law has become our tutor leading to Christ, that we might be declared righteous due to faith. But now that the faith has arrived, we are no longer under a tutor" (Gal 3:24, 25) would have little meaning, unless a person grasps the Mosaic Law covenant that was given to the nation of Israel at Mount Sinai in 1513 B.C.E.
In addition, when Jesus told the evil-doer to one side of him while on the torture stake: "Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise", the word paradise would be meaningless unless a person were to look closely at the Genesis account of creation.(Gen 1-3) This Jewish evil-doer only knew of only one paradise, the one made by God for Adam and Eve in "the beginning."(Matt 19:4)
Furthermore, Jesus answer to the Pharisees question: "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife on every sort of ground?” would not have any meaning unless a person understood marriage at Genesis 2:22-24 and in the Mosaic law as critically important to us.
On another occasion, when the Pharisees condemned Jesus and his disciples for plucking grains of head to eat on the sabbath day, a person could not understand his response concerning David eating the "loaves of presentation" and of the priests ' treating the sabbath as not sacred and continuing guiltless.' (Matt 12:1-5) Nor could a person understand what Jesus meant when he also told the Pharisees that he is "Lord of the sabbath."(Matt 12:8) Unless a person can glean from the Hebrew Scriptures, the meaning behind the Mosaic Law and prophetic statements, then a person cannot begin to "put the pieces together" concerning Jesus key role in God's kingdom.
Jesus told his disciples: "To you it is granted to understand the sacred secrets of the kingdom of the heavens, but to those people it is not granted." Thus, those who are truly Jesus disciples, will dig deeply into the Hebrew Scriptures that provide a basis for "understand(ing) the sacred secrets of the kingdom of the heavens."
However, concerning those who do not understand "the sacred secrets of the kingdom of the heavens" because of their failure to thoroughly examine the Hebrew Scriptures (along with the rest of the Bible), Jesus said of these ones: "This is why I speak to them by the use of illustrations, because, looking, they look in vain, and hearing, they hear in vain, neither do they get the sense of it; and toward them the prophecy of Isaiah (at Isaiah 6:9 of the "Old Testament") is having fulfillment, which says, ‘By hearing, you will hear but by no means get the sense of it; and, looking, you will look but by no means see."(Matt 13:13) No one will be able to grasp the truth of the Bible without taking time to grasp the "Old Testament."
The account at Revelation 12:9 concerning the "original serpent", Satan, would have no meaning unless examined in the light of Adam and Eve's rebellion in the Garden of Eden at Genesis 3, nor would understanding just who the Devil is and why he is to be thrown into "the abyss" at Revelation 20.
The apostle Paul wrote: "All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work."(2 Tim 3:16, 17) No one can truly ' set things straight ' nor be capable of "disciplining in righteousness", nor "be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work" unless these take the time and effort to fathom the "Old Testament" or Hebrew Scriptures.
Jesus, quoting from Deuteronomy 8:3 (of the "Old Testament"), told Satan: "It is written, ‘Man must live, not on bread alone, but on every utterance coming forth through Jehovah’s mouth.’”(Matt 4:4) Hence, all of the Bible is essential to us, for all 66 books of the Bible are God's written word to us.
Therefore, in order to understand the Christian Greek Scriptures, commonly called the "New Testament", it is necessary to delve into the Hebrew Scriptures, commonly called the "Old Testament." The churches have divided the Bible into an "Old Testament" and a "New Testament". However, the Bible is not divided into an "old" and "new". It is one complete book that was written by God's spirit over the course of some 1600 years, from 1513 B.C.E. down to about 98 C.E., by some 40 different "secretaries." The expression " from Genesis to Revelation" has much meaning only if we consider the whole Bible.
The Bible is interconnected and cannot be separated into "testaments", just as operating systems for computers are connected throughout by dynamic link libraries, or "dll". If a critical file is missing, the computer will either "crash" or fail to boot up. The Bible is closed to those who are unwilling to examine the Hebrew Scriptures along with the Christian Greek Scriptures as one book.
Strypes
Member
For the most part, your observations that the New testament (New Covenant) has direct links to the Old Testament (old covenant) are correct. To understand what "sin" is, it is helpful to understand the context in which sin (through Adam's disobedience) caused the fall of mankind.
But..
The false doctrines of your cult (Jehovah's Witnesses) miss the purpose of Jesus' sacrifice. In your response you said...
Life forever on paradise earth in perfection among those whom the Bible calls "meek ones".. is not why Jesus gave His Life.
Fellowship with God was broken when Adam fell prey to the schemes of the Devil by questioning God's instruction and motive and Choosing to disobey God. Adam and Eve were designed to live forever but because of their disobedience they could no longer eat of the tree of Life and were expelled from the Garden.
Jesus (the real Jesus, not Michael the arch angel like your cult teaches) came to restore the fellowship. God became man to pay the price for sin (death) in the flesh so that we who believe in Him can enjoy fellowship with Him again.
God is holy and we are not. Sin separates us from Him (our sin not Adam's) and Jesus (Emmanuel, God with us) made the way where there was no way for sinful man to have fellowship with Almighty God.
Jesus, by taking the sin of the world upon Himself and paying the price (death) for us, He redeemed us. We do not need to wait until some futrue "Paradise earth" to enjoy the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the joy of knowing God here and now. Eternity is just a bonus.
You also said...
and also...
The Pharisees were well versed in the "Hebrew scriptures" yet they rejected their Messiah.
Matthew was a tax collector and Peter was a fisherman. There is no mention of them being scholars but they were fully equipped to share the Good News.
The three thousand that believed on day of Pentecost may have included a few "scholars" but there is no mention of it in the second chapter of Acts.
Paul was a scholar of the Hebrew scriptures and until he met Jesus on the road to demascus, he didn't understand them.
My point is that you do not have to be a bible scholar to understand the bible nor is it a "closed book" to those that have the Holy Spirit's mark of ownership. Because it is The Holy Spirit that gives us understanding. Not the governing body and writing department of the watchtower bible and tract society.
I love the Old testament. It is full of insight to the human condition. To understand references like that of King David it helps to read them. But Knowing Jesus is the crux (pun intended) of understanding.
That part of your post about not dividing the old and the new testaments is legalism. The old covenant and the new covenant are what they are. Jesus (God with us) instituted the NEW covenant in His own blood. There is a difinate division and it was made at Calvery. When Jesus died the veil was torn from top to bottom. The old covenant was fulfilled and the New Covenant has come.
BTW Jesus was crucified on a Cross, A PAGAN ROMAN CROSS. He was not impaled on a torture stake as your cult teaches. The PAGAN Romans used a PAGAN means (the cross) to kill Jesus. But the grave could not hold Him! Glory to God! He is risen!
Hello- Jesus quoted from the Old Testament all the time-of course there was no New Testament yet in the early Church days-but the Apostles read from the OT every week and used excerpts in their sermons and epistles-the OT is Bible history and shows us the mistakes humans can make and the rewards when we are blessed-jn
The Lamb's no bull!
Happy,
All scripture is inspired of God, there is no bull, no lies, nothing false within. I am so sorry it comes across this way to you. Parts of the ot are difficult indeed; and parts do seem questionable, but there is much beauty, faith, joy, love, and hope in there also ... AND the Messiah everywhere!
May I suggest, then, that you stay within the pages of the 2nd (new) testament until your faith is strengthened.
Or, find a person who is a good teacher of the ot and stick with them for a while. I can give you some suggestions if you would like.
I myself have never made it through Lamentations!
Love in Christ
Happy,
All scripture is inspired of God, there is no bull, no lies, nothing false within. I am so sorry it comes across this way to you. Parts of the ot are difficult indeed; and parts do seem questionable, but there is much beauty, faith, joy, love, and hope in there also ... AND the Messiah everywhere!
May I suggest, then, that you stay within the pages of the 2nd (new) testament until your faith is strengthened.
Or, find a person who is a good teacher of the ot and stick with them for a while. I can give you some suggestions if you would like.
I myself have never made it through Lamentations!
Love in Christ
OT is no more or less important than the NT. Without the OT, the NT wouldn't make sense at all. Without the NT, then the OT may look like doom never ending.
The OT and NT are equally important.
Its also very important to prayerfully study the Word. Don't just open and read. Pray for wisdom and understanding before you open it. A short little sincere prayer for the Holy Spirit to give you understanding can certainly make a big difference. After all, He is the Author of the Word!
The OT and NT are equally important.
Its also very important to prayerfully study the Word. Don't just open and read. Pray for wisdom and understanding before you open it. A short little sincere prayer for the Holy Spirit to give you understanding can certainly make a big difference. After all, He is the Author of the Word!
I like to study the life of David. God called him a man after His own heart, after all. If there is one person I want to pattern my life after, it's David.
Also, I spend a fair amount of my study time in Proverbs. Every time I re-read a proverb, more wisdom is revealed to me.. and I'm only 20 (well, about to be 20 in 10 days) so I need all the wisdom I can get! lol
Also, I spend a fair amount of my study time in Proverbs. Every time I re-read a proverb, more wisdom is revealed to me.. and I'm only 20 (well, about to be 20 in 10 days) so I need all the wisdom I can get! lol
Jaareshiah
Member
On the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus told his Jewish audience: "Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth."(Matt 5:5, King James Bible) Jesus was quoting from Psalms 37:11, which says: "But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace."(King James Bible) Psalms 37:29 says: "The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever."(King James Bible)
At Isaiah 45:18, it says: "For thus saith Jehovah that created the heavens, the God that formed the earth and made it, that established it and created it not a waste, that formed it to be inhabited: I am Jehovah; and there is none else."(American Standard Version) Thus, the earth is to be restored to a paradise, for that is Jehovah God's original purpose.
Isaiah 55:10, 11 says of what God has decreed: "For just as the pouring rain descends, and the snow, from the heavens and does not return to that place, unless it actually saturates the earth and makes it produce and sprout, and seed is actually given to the sower and bread to the eater, so my word that goes forth from my mouth will prove to be. It will not return to me without results, but it will certainly do that in which I have delighted, and it will have certain success in that for which I have sent it."(New World Translation)
Jesus provided a "corresponding ransom" in order to buy back what our forefather Adam lost for his offspring, the hope of living on a paradise earth "in the abundance of peace...for ever." What our Creator has purposed for the earth cannot be stopped by anyone, but will "have certain success."
In order for this to accomplished, Jesus ransom provided the basis for establishing a heavenly kingdom or government (Isa 9:6, King James Bible), for he told his eleven faithful apostles: "I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom."(Luke 22:29) This kingdom was established for the sole purpose of bringing God's word concerning the earth to "certain success."(Matt 6:9, 10)
Daniel 2:44 explains what God's kingdom will do and when it was established: "And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever."(King James Bible) By means of God's revealing it to him, Daniel says that the establishment of God's kingdom and the destruction of all human governments would occur "in the latter days" or "last days", our time period.(Dan 2:28)
Daniel 2:35 further says that after God's kingdom or "a stone...cut not by hands"(Dan 2:45) has "consume(d) all these kingdom" or human governments, then "at that time the iron, the molded clay, the copper, the silver and the gold were, all together, crushed and became like the chaff from the summer threshing floor, and the wind carried them away so that no trace at all was found of them. And as for the stone that struck the image, it became a large mountain and filled the whole earth."
God's kingdom will now take over earth's affairs and restore this earth to the original paradisaic condition as God had purposed in "the beginning."(Matt 19:4) Jehovah God established "an administration" or way of administering earth's affairs and restoring what was lost in the Garden of Eden.
The apostle Paul wrote that "it is according to his (God's) good pleasure which he purposed in himself for an administration (Greek oikonomia, literally meaning "household management") at the full limit of the appointed times, namely, to gather all things together again in the Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth."(Eph 1:9, 10) Hence, God's "good pleasure" is to see his original purpose fulfilled, that of the earth being as the pattern God made for Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, a paradise, by means of God's kingdom.
Also, the churches have divided the Bible into an "Old Testament" and "New Testament", not "old covenant" and "new covenant." And it is well known that many who profess to be Christian feel little desire to read the "Old Testament" or Hebrew Scriptures, in part because of the view of the religious leaders of the churches. Because of the incorrect rendering by the King James Bible at 2 Corinthians 3:14, which uses the words "old testament" instead of "old covenant", this has caused the churches to assign the Hebrew Scriptures as the "Old Testament", when in fact, there is no such division in the Bible.
Edwin Hatch, in his work Essays in Biblical Greek, Oxford, 1889, p. 48, states that “in ignorance of the philology of later and vulgar Latin, it was formerly supposed that ‘testamentum,’ by which the word [di·a·the´ke] is rendered in the early Latin versions as well as in the Vulgate, meant ‘testament’ or ‘will,’ whereas in fact it meant also, if not exclusively, ‘covenant.’”
I just love David! So human, with all our failings .... but God saw David's heart and loved him. David certainly suffered the consequences of his actions though.
My last name is David, which gives me a wonderful opportunity to open the door to witnessing: When I have to give my name I say, "David .. d.a.v.i.d. ... like the King of Israel!" Sometimes I can get a conversation going with that.
My last name is David, which gives me a wonderful opportunity to open the door to witnessing: When I have to give my name I say, "David .. d.a.v.i.d. ... like the King of Israel!" Sometimes I can get a conversation going with that.
The Robster
Member
David had a lot more faith than today's Christians. Today's Christians don't even understand what it means to have a covenant with our Father in Heaven, but David did.
This is so true.
Ezekiel 13:20
Member
In the begining was the Word- John ch.1
The Old Testament was given as an example to us-ICorinthians ch.10
I would closely examine myself if I felt any of God's Word was bull.
I'll be honest, some of the stuff I read in the bible just doesn't seem to add up. It's not that easy to read really. There appears to be contradictions everywhere, but I get that they can be explained away if you put thought into it. But you can also argue it the other way too. Now I believe in God mainly because of the hundreds of Near Death Experiences I've read about. That's what got me hooked on the idea that there is a creator. These experiences are all very similar in nature. It's extraoridinary! But they don't all involve Jesus. In fact, most of them don't. That doesn't mean Jesus isn't Lord, I'm just saying...I try to live my life with the motto "What would Jesus Do" but I'm also open-minded enough to accept everybody else's opinions on their faith and what brings them closest to God, even if they aren't christians.
Ezekiel 13:20
Member
John 14:6- Jesus saith unto him,I AM the way,the Truth,and the Life:NO MAN cometh unto the Father,except by Me.
Sorry,but the only way to the Father is through the shed Blood of Yahshua Messiah,Jesus the Christ.
Hell will be full of "nice people" who thought they were worshipping God. Some attempt to worship God through other means than Christ.
Satan offers many false ways to Heaven,to deceive as many as he can.
Sorry,but the only way to the Father is through the shed Blood of Yahshua Messiah,Jesus the Christ.
Hell will be full of "nice people" who thought they were worshipping God. Some attempt to worship God through other means than Christ.
Satan offers many false ways to Heaven,to deceive as many as he can.