Once saved always saved? / Is eternal security Biblica

[David777]

Dear brother Jaareshiah,

Well written, of course. Love to read your posts, thanks.

 

[rojoloco]

The gaining of salvation is always ongoing, until realized, for Jesus said: "Exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will seek to get in but will not be able.(Luke 13:24) Jesus also said: "But he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved."(Matt 24:13) Obedience to God's laws must be adhered to under all circumstances.

I have to say while I agree with your definition of sin, I wholeheartedly disagree with this statement of yours.

First of all, your interpretation of Luke 13:24 hinges on a works based salvation. It suggests if one exerts to please God, he will earn his salvation. It suggests that if one does not work hard enough, salvation may be lost on this person. It suggests many things but salvation through faith alone by grace alone is not one of them.

Second, I also disagree with your handling of Matthew 24:13. It also suggests a system of salvation through works. You even went so far to as claim that one is not yet saved but will be if he sticks it out and endures as if it will be of his own strength which will result in a merit of sorts.

Salvation is either all God or none of God but it is not partially God and partially man in some synergistic cosmic partnership.

I agree that endurance plays a major role in salvation but you are putting the cart before the horse so to speak. You are saying endurance produces salvation. I am saying salvation produces endurance. Let's look at some of the verses that seemingly support your stance. We'll then look at some that seemingly support mine. Lastly, we will put them all in the proper context.

So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;

Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach-- if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it. For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty, how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard,

For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.

And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end, so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.

Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

It seems so cut and dry. By these verses, it appears that salvation is the byproduct of perseverance and endurance. However, how do we reconcile that with these verses which seemingly place the ball in God's court?

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

For this reason I also suffer these things, but I am not ashamed; for I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day.

Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy,

So what is it? Is it our endurance that produces salvation or salvation that produces endurance? It obviously can't be both. In fact, only one is even remotely biblical.

Any time it speaks of salvation in the future tense, it is not referring to our faith but rather, our physical salvation from this earthly world. As John MacArthur puts it, "It is not that a person's endurance will produce salvation but that his endurance will be a Spirit-empowered product and proof of the reality that he is saved....The person who endures in faith whatever hardship or persecution may come to him because of his relationship to Christ demonstrates that he belongs to Christ, and Christ assures that person that he shall be saved.He will eventually be delivered out of the present evil system of lawlessness and ungodliness into God's eternal kingdom of righteousness."

 

[rojoloco]

Grace is God's free gift,

I remember us mentioning this verse somewhere but I can't find it for the life of me so I'll just address it here. We both clearly interpret the gift of God mentioned in Ephesians 2:8 to be 2 different things. You see it as being grace while I see it as being faith.

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

So which one is the gift of God; grace or faith?

If we say grace is the gift, where does that leave us? It leaves us sitting in a works based faith that exists because grace allows it to. This just isn't biblical because Scripture clearly condemns the idea of works based faith right there in verse 8 where it says it is not of ourselves. Then again, your rendering of this verse would claim that it is saying grace is not of ourselves because it is a gift of God while faith is from us based on a decision we made. Regardless, this is still unbiblical because it all hinges on something that we did. Let's pretend faith is something that we obtain out of a decision we make. That would make it the most righteous decision one could ever make. However, Isiaiah tells us that even our most righteous deeds are as filthy rags. The Hebrew word used is ayd which literally meant the rags used to catch the blood of a menstruating woman. That means, even if we were able to choose God, in the grand scheme of things, that definition of faith is synonymous with a used tampon of a woman on her rag. Sorry for the vivid picture but that is the Scriptural standpoint on your assessment. If faith is a 2 part equation (1 part God, 1 part man), that makes it the love child of righteous works and decisions. That means it would have come from ourselves and would give us, in all rights, something to boast of. This is all in direct violation of the very verse in question.

However, when we view faith as the gift of God, everything changes and it is in full accord with the passage as well as Scripture as a whole.

What is grace? It is the unmerited favor of God. There is no doubt that salvation comes from grace. We can both agree on this fact. There was no doubt to the Ephesians that salvation was from grace either. They knew salvation stemmed from unmerited favor of God. For grace to be the gift in verse 8 would be redundant at best. That rendering would say:

"For by [the unmerited favor of God] you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [the unmerited favor of God] is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

This rendering makes absolutely no sense. Obviously, grace is unmerited favor. Obviously the unmerited favor of God is from God. Obviously the unmerited favor of God is not of man. On that note, how can one possibly boast in something that they have no part in nor would they ever consider having part in? If grace is the gift, the Ephesians never would have even thought about taking credit for it any more than they would have taken credit for the breeze that blew on a hot day.

However, when faith becomes the gift, it is read as this:

"For by [the unmerited favor of God] you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [faith] is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast"

It makes much more sense now. There is no confusing redundancy. Now we can see how one could possibly attribute faith to themselves and the need for Paul to set the record straight. Faith is the gift that is given by God through His unmerited favor (grace).

Besides, Ephesians 2:8 is not the only place where faith is described of as a gift of God. However, nowhere else will you see grace being described of in that term. Then again, we can clearly see this verse doesn't even do that. Only misinterpretations do such a thing.

Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:

For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,

And on the basis of faith in His name, it is the name of Jesus which has strengthened this man whom you see and know; and the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect health in the presence of you all.

 

[David777]

Grace

Hello, Mr Rojocolo.

Definition of Grace.

Basic definition from lexical.

The Greek word for grace is caris. Its basic idea is simply “non-meritorious or unearned favor, an unearned gift, a favor or blessings bestowed as a gift, freely and never as merit for work performed.”

That's why I said "Grace is a gift".

That's what it is.

You will have to retract your comment, thankyou.

 

[Ben Toast]

I've been curious about this for quite a long time, actually. Whether a person is forever saved, or if salvation can be revoked.

Thank you, all, for the clarity.

 

[rojoloco]

Hello, Mr Rojocolo.

Definition of Grace.

Basic definition from lexical.

The Greek word for grace is caris. Its basic idea is simply “non-meritorious or unearned favor, an unearned gift, a favor or blessings bestowed as a gift, freely and never as merit for work performed.”

That's why I said "Grace is a gift".

That's what it is.

You will have to retract your comment, thankyou.

There is nothing to be retracted. The word was defined by itself. There is no need to define it separately because it was already done by stating it as grace. To top it off, it makes no sense because the Ephesians never would have thought they could have performed grace themselves yet that is exactly what the verse would be saying if grace was the gift. However, if faith is the "that" in the verse, it all makes sense. Look at it from a grammatical standpoint.

 

[Jaareshiah]

I have to say while I agree with your definition of sin, I wholeheartedly disagree with this statement of yours.

First of all, your interpretation of Luke 13:24 hinges on a works based salvation. It suggests if one exerts to please God, he will earn his salvation. It suggests that if one does not work hard enough, salvation may be lost on this person. It suggests many things but salvation through faith alone by grace alone is not one of them.

Second, I also disagree with your handling of Matthew 24:13. It also suggests a system of salvation through works. You even went so far to as claim that one is not yet saved but will be if he sticks it out and endures as if it will be of his own strength which will result in a merit of sorts.

Salvation is either all God or none of God but it is not partially God and partially man in some synergistic cosmic partnership.

I agree that endurance plays a major role in salvation but you are putting the cart before the horse so to speak. You are saying endurance produces salvation. I am saying salvation produces endurance. Let's look at some of the verses that seemingly support your stance. We'll then look at some that seemingly support mine. Lastly, we will put them all in the proper context.

It seems so cut and dry. By these verses, it appears that salvation is the byproduct of perseverance and endurance. However, how do we reconcile that with these verses which seemingly place the ball in God's court?

So what is it? Is it our endurance that produces salvation or salvation that produces endurance? It obviously can't be both. In fact, only one is even remotely biblical.

Any time it speaks of salvation in the future tense, it is not referring to our faith but rather, our physical salvation from this earthly world. As John MacArthur puts it, "It is not that a person's endurance will produce salvation but that his endurance will be a Spirit-empowered product and proof of the reality that he is saved....The person who endures in faith whatever hardship or persecution may come to him because of his relationship to Christ demonstrates that he belongs to Christ, and Christ assures that person that he shall be saved.He will eventually be delivered out of the present evil system of lawlessness and ungodliness into God's eternal kingdom of righteousness."

Obedience to God requires, not just believing, but action. Jesus, in teaching his disciples, said: "Why, then, do you call me ‘Lord! Lord!’ but do not do the things I say ? Everyone that comes to me and hears my words and does them, I will show you whom he is like: He is like a man building a house, who dug and went down deep and laid a foundation upon the rock-mass. Consequently, when a flood arose, the river dashed against that house, but was not strong enough to shake it, because of its being well built. On the other hand, he who hears and does not do, is like a man who built a house upon the ground without a foundation. Against it the river dashed, and immediately it collapsed, and the ruin of that house became great.”(Luke 6:46-49)

Obviously some feel as you do, that faith alone is all that is necessary. However, James wrote: "Nevertheless, a certain one will say: “You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith apart from the works, and I shall show you my faith by my works.” You believe there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder. But do you care to know, O empty man, that faith apart from works is inactive ? Was not Abraham our father declared righteous by works after he had offered up Isaac his son upon the altar ? You behold that his faith worked along with his works and by his works his faith was perfected. and the scripture was fulfilled which says: “Abraham put faith in Jehovah, and it was counted to him as righteousness,” and he came to be called “Jehovah’s friend.” You see that a man is to be declared righteous by works, and not by faith alone. In the same manner was not also Ra´hab the harlot declared righteous by works, after she had received the messengers hospitably and sent them out by another way ? Indeed, as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead."(James 2:18-26)

The apostle Paul wrote to the Philippians: "Consequently, my beloved ones, in the way that you have always obeyed, not during my presence only, but now much more readily during my absence, keep working out your own salvation with fear and trembling."(Phil 2:12)

The churches have taught that all you have to do is "be a good Christian", ' believing on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved '. However, this line of reasoning is faulty and displays a hollow faith. It lacks that which should accompany genuine faith in Jehovah God and his "only-begotten Son", Jesus Christ, that of authentic "works".

Jesus gave several commands that show the "works" a true Christian is to have, in order for his foundation to be built "upon the rock-mass". Of a few, Jesus said:

(1) "I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another; just as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves.”(John 13:34, 35) Have the churches followed this commandment, or instead have they gone to war against even members of their own religious organization in different nations ? In WWI and WWII, Catholic fought against Catholic, Protestant against Protestant, Methodist against Methodist. These ' did not do the things I say " as Jesus said at Luke 6:46, but rather followed the will of their respective nations in going to war. These did not "love your neighbor as yourself ".(Matt 22:39)

Of the churches support of political leaders in World War I, British Brigadier General Frank P. Crozier said: “The Christian Churches are the finest blood-lust creators which we have and of them we made free use.” (A Brass Hat in No Man’s Land, published in 1930) Referring to the role of nominal Christian churches during World War I, historian Paul Johnson wrote: “Clergymen were unable, and for the most part unwilling, to place Christian faith before nationality. Most took the easy way out and equated Christianity with patriotism. Christian soldiers of all denominations were exhorted to kill each other in the name of their Saviour.”

(2) "If you were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because you are no part of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, on this account the world hates you."(John 15:19) How many of the churches have adhered to this commandment, abstaining from any participation in the political arena, even mentally ? Rather, have not many, though professing to be "Christian", meddled in the political affairs of the nations, with some even running for the various political offices ?

(3) "Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you."(Matt 28:19, 20) How many of the churches are going "from house to house"(Acts 20:20; Matt 10:11-15), teaching people to observe "all the things" that Jesus commanded, conducting Bible studies with interested individuals ?

So, yes, to please God requires that we ' exert ourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door '. Otherwise, "many, I tell you, will seek to get in but will not be able."(Luke 13:24) In addition, Jesus said that those who have genuine faith accompanied by legitimate works, have need of endurance, saying: "he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved", followed by the statement and command: "And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come."(Matt 24:13, 14)

Hence, only those who sternly adhere to Jesus words with genuine "works" down "to the end...will be saved." Jesus identified that only "a few" would measure up to the requirements for life, saying that "narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it."(Matt 7:14)

 

[David777]

Simple as ABC

Once saved always saved? That is the question.

There are two distinct positions, both fully supported.

Let's take a look at a definitive chapter in the letter to the Ephesians.
There are two ways to read these passages. Simple really.

Let's look at these verses from Ephesians 1.
Ephesians 1:4-5
" just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him In love
He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,"

1) Predestined in Jesus Christ. Christ was predestined from eternity. We are chosen in Him when we beleive. Consequently, when you believe in
Jesus Christ you are effectively predestined from eternity. All are called in Jesus Christ. Reconciliation is for the World.

2) Calvinism. God predestines each individual, a select few. The rest, unselected have no escape ever from there destiny.
Reconciliation is only for the select few.

Make no mistake, one is correct the other is a distortion, both interpretations are possible.

I struggled with this for a period of time. Both sides can quote endless passages to support their position.

You are eventually left with your personal opinion. Do not be misled.My personal opinion is based purely on divine love. Christ died for all, pure love.

God loves everyone equally, no favourites, pure Love. Everyone has an equal opportunity of choosing Christ under the conviction of The Holy Spirit.
This is the most straight forward of the two. It is the more desirable of the two positions, because it maintains a beautiful harmony. A harmony of the full revelation of Jesus Christ.
There is no refutation of this position.


In my opinion Calvinism restricts the reconcillation of Jesus Christ to a select few. This select group does not even know if they have been chosen. There can be no individual safety in Calvinism.
It is all God's will. This position requires considerable work to understand. In the end it is only God's Sovereign Will that counts.
Note: All the primary doctrines of Christianity are common to both positions.
You can in fact live your entire life in Jesus Christ without even being concerned about this topic.

Will the debate ever end? Only with the return of Jesus Christ.