Is man by nature immortal?

[brakelite]

We have two choices. Either immortality comes to us as a gift from God, or God made us immortal from the beginning. I put it to you that immortality is a gift, a gift that comes to us on the day of the resurrection, at the second coming of Jesus. I could cite many scriptures to support this, but only one should suffice.
1 Cor. 15:51 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Allow me to paraphrase the above texts, and reduce them to just the bolded portions.
We shall all be changed at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Permit me to quote from a sermon by Amos Phelps:
This doctrine (the immortality of the soul) can be traced through the muddy channels of a corrupted Christianity, a perverted Judaism, a pagan philosophy, a superstitious idolatry to the great instigator of mischief in the garden of Eden. The Protestants borrowed it from the Catholics, the Catholics from the Pharisees, the Pharisees from the pagans, and the pagans from the old serpent who first preached the doctrine amid the lowly bowels in paradise to an audience all too willing to hear and heed the new and fascinating theology..."Ye shall not surely die". (Genesis 3:4)

It is a strange infatuation that the vast majority of Christianity today teaches a doctrine, the immortality of the soul, based on no greater authority than that of the great deceiver.

 

[agua]

1Ti 6:13-16 NKJV I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate, (14) that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing, (15) which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, (16) who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.

 

[ForumAddict]

Totally depends on if the physical or spiritual is being addressed. Physically, NO. Spirituality, Yes!

 

[will]

"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life
was cast into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:15

Question: If human soul (not present, physical body) were not immortal, then what happened to those who were cast into the lake of fire? Do they cease to exist?

 

[Davy]

This is the way I look at it, brakelite:

You have to differentiate between "immortality" and "everlasting or eternal life." There is a difference, immortality means life within itself and being unable to die, everlasting life means you can keep on living, but at some stage that life can be taken away from you and suffer eternal destruction which is the second death. (Rev 21:8)

The Bible refers to two groups of people. 144,000, (Rev 7:4) who rule with Jesus in heaven over the earth, (Rev 20:6) and another large group that live on the earth during Jesus' millennial rule, (Rev 7:9). Those who go to heaven are given immortality, life within themselves, (1Cor 15:51-54) those who are blessed with everlasting life will live on the earth. (Matt 5:5, 19:29) These will not be given immortality, because at the end of the 1000 years of Christ's rule, Satan is let out of his prison to test mankind, (Rev 20:7) the way he did with Adam and Eve, who, if they had not sinned would still be alive today being blessed with everlasting life. At the end of the 1000 year rule by Jesus and his co-rulers, those who follow Satan will also be eternally destroyed with Satan. (Rev 20:7-10) But this could not happen if they had been given immortality.

As regards the concept of the immortal soul, Ezekiel 18:4, clearly says: "The soul who sins is the one who will die," not keep on living. (NIV) When the Bible speaks about people being "tormented day and night forever and ever," (Rev 20:10) this is symbolically referring to their eternal destruction.

 

[brakelite]

Totally depends on if the physical or spiritual is being addressed. Physically, NO. Spirituality, Yes!

Hi. God is Spirit. The Bible says, as Agua quoted, that God only is immortal, therefore God is the only immortal Spirit.

"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life
was cast into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:15

Question: If human soul (not present, physical body) were not immortal, then what happened to those who were cast into the lake of fire? Do they cease to exist?

There is no life outside of the physical body. This concept did not emanate from the scriptures, but rather from paganism, made popular in a modern context through spiritualism. It was a concept not to be found anywhere in the OT or NT; it became a teaching of the church along with the myriad of other corrupt pagan insertions into the Catholic system.
When man was created he was not given a soul, he became a living soul. (See Genesis 2:7) Creation is an equation: body plus spirit(breath) = living soul.(Both the Hebrew and Greek renerings of spirit mean breath...they no-where can be construed to mean a living entity in and of itself).
Death is precisely the reverse of this process. Body minus spirit (breath which returns to God Who gave it) = death to living soul. All that remains after death is a corpse. Period. Life only resumes at the resurrection. It is the resurrection that is and always has been the Christian hope...not death.

Therefore, those who are thrown into the lake of fire have been reusrrected. The resurrection of the wicked takes place at the close of the 1000 years, Jesus referred to this as the resurrection of damnation. They are resurrected to face their final judgment...they are shown their missed opportunities and sin (God is just and will not condemn anyone without revealing the evidence for His sentencing) and are thrown to the flames. This fire is certainly punishment, and will vary in duration according to the deeds done, but eventually it destroys.

 

[brakelite]

This is the way I look at it, brakelite:

You have to differentiate between "immortality" and "everlasting or eternal life." There is a difference, immortality means life within itself and being unable to die, everlasting life means you can keep on living, but at some stage that life can be taken away from you and suffer eternal destruction which is the second death. (Rev 21:8)

The Bible refers to two groups of people. 144,000, (Rev 7:4) who rule with Jesus in heaven over the earth, (Rev 20:6) and another large group that live on the earth during Jesus' millennial rule, (Rev 7:9). Those who go to heaven are given immortality, life within themselves, (1Cor 15:51-54) those who are blessed with everlasting life will live on the earth. (Matt 5:5, 19:29) These will not be given immortality, because at the end of the 1000 years of Christ's rule, Satan is let out of his prison to test mankind, (Rev 20:7) the way he did with Adam and Eve, who, if they had not sinned would still be alive today being blessed with everlasting life. At the end of the 1000 year rule by Jesus and his co-rulers, those who follow Satan will also be eternally destroyed with Satan. (Rev 20:7-10) But this could not happen if they had been given immortality.

As regards the concept of the immortal soul, Ezekiel 18:4, clearly says: "The soul who sins is the one who will die," not keep on living. (NIV) When the Bible speaks about people being "tormented day and night forever and ever," (Rev 20:10) this is symbolically referring to their eternal destruction.

I cannot accept that at any time any man is given immortality as you describe it. I agree that God's immortality is innate and is wholly natural. But if God were to give such a thing to us it would make us gods. I believe we will forever, whether the 144000 or not, be reliant on the grace and power of God to sustain our lives.
That is why the Tree of Life is now in heaven. While in the garden it was needful for Adam and Eve to eat of it to sustain life...in heaven it will be no different.
I have a somewhat different view of the millennium, but I agree that the wicked will finally be destroyed along the devil and his angels. The universe will be forever cleansed of all sin and wickedness. Not a vestige will remain except the scars on our Saviour's body.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

We have two choices. Either immortality comes to us as a gift from God, or God made us immortal from the beginning.

There is always another choice.It's called something we have not considered or the unknown variable.

We know death entered through the knowledge of good and evil.
Without death they were by default immortal.

Genesis 2:7 Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
Genesis 2:9 Out of the ground the LORD God caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

If they wanted life they could get it from a tree.
If they wanted death they could get it from a tree.

Genesis 2:17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.

But if God were to give such a thing to us it would make us gods.

I tend to agree:
Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

the term the man is become as one of us is a clue of Adams position,he was at that point a condemned god.

We are still facing the same trees today.
Proverbs 18:21 Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.

 

[james g]

Some people cannot believe that flesh and bones shall be perfect.When speaking of Christ’s resurrection, some maintain that it was a spiritual resurrection. We know by this statement that they do not know what they are talking about. Jesus Christ’s spirit was not put in the tomb; only His body was. The Roman soldiers were not stationed at the sepulcher to guard His spirit, but to guard His body. It was His body they guarded; it was His body which arose from the dead!

One Scripture used by those who believe only in a spiritual resurrection is I Corinthians 15:44: "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body." Notice that the verse does not say "a spirit body," but "a spiritual body." The natural body is controlled by the soul; the spiritual body shall be controlled by the Spirit; hence, a spiritual body.

Jesus Christ’s own resurrected body was proved to be flesh and bone. When Christ appeared unto the disciples, He remarked, "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have" Luke 24:39. Christ did not say that there were no spirits, but that a spirit does not have flesh and bones. Ezekiel 37 pictures the resurrection of Israel; flesh, bones and spirit are mentioned, but no blood.

The law demanded the shedding of blood, and Christ shed his blood to pay for that demand. In the resurrection, all will be raised without blood; life will be in the spirit of man."[The Lord Jesus Christ] shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself" Phil. 3:20, 21. Our bodies, the same ones that may be planted in death, will pass under a great transformation and be raised. If we should plant a lily, a lily will come up; if we plant wheat, wheat will come up; if we plant tares, tares will come up; if we plant human bodies, glorified human bodies will come up. God looks upon the cemeteries as nothing but harvest fields. The seeds in these harvest fields are the bodies of the dead, and the harvest is the resurrection"And we shall be changed" (I Cor. 15:52c).

Yes, a great transformation will take place, but it will be the same body, for the resurrected body of Christ proves that it will be the same body, as He bore in His resurrected body the print of the nails. I Corinthians 15:42-44 describes fully the resurrection of the just (God tells nothing of the bodies of the damned in their resurrection): "It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption." A dead body is a corruptible body. A live body is a mortal body. Nothing is ever said in Scripture of planting a mortal body. A corruptible body is subject to decay and dust, but one day it will be raised in incorruption, a body fit for heaven, that can never be subject to corruption again. "It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory." These vile bodies have been dishonored by sin, but one day they will be raised in glory like unto the glorious body of our Lord.

 

[ForumAddict]

All that remains after death is a corpse. Period. Life only resumes at the resurrection. It is the resurrection that is and always has been the Christian hope...not death.

Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise." Looks like the thief went straight to Heaven?

1 Corinthians 15:20-23 "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first-fruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the first-fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."

1 Corinthians 15:51-57 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (precede) them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them (the resurrected believers) in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Corinthian 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.... 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. 29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for (Greek:huper — concerning, dealing with, referring to) the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for (Greek:huper — concerning, dealing with, referring to) the dead?
​

 

[agua]

That is why the Tree of Life is now in heaven. While in the garden it was needful for Adam and Eve to eat of it to sustain life...in heaven it will be no different.

The Tree of Life is a very interesting and seldom spoken of thing. Many suggest Adam and Eve never ate of the Tree else they would have become immortal and this is why God blocked the way after they sinned. The Tree was for healing and rejuvenation, which is indicated in Rev 22 in the New Jerusalem, and they ate of it when needed. imo I wonder if its fruit was tasty. : )

Rev 22:2 NKJV In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

God said there was only one tree they could not eat of.

Gen 2:16-17 NKJV And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; (17) but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

 

[brakelite]

Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise." Looks like the thief went straight to Heaven?

Forumaddict, in the original Greek there was no punctuation. That verse read like this :"Itellyouthetruthtodayyouwillbewithmeinparadise"
It was the translaters who inserted the punctuation as we read it today, and in this case they made a mistake, being influenced by their preconceived ideas on the after-life. The truth is is that Jesus Himself did not go to heaven or paradise that day, for after the resurrection He said to Mary "touch me not for I have not yet ascended to the Father." Nor is it likely at all that the thieves even died that day. Crucifixion was designed by the Romans to prolong suffering for as long as possible with as much pain as possible without inflicting death.
That is why the guards were so surprised that Jesus had so soon died. The thieves however, having no power over their own lives as Jesus had, needed to have their legs broken, not to kill them, (who dies of broken leg) but to stop them from running away overnight, for it was demanded by the Jews that anyone on a cross over the feast days must be taken down until the feast was over, then put up again. (An example of Jewish law imposing itself above mercy). It is possible that they continued to suffer for at least 2 or more days, as per the intent of Roman justice. The reason Jesus died was not because anyone killed Him, but because He Himself surrendered His life.

1 Corinthians 15:20-23 "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first-fruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the first-fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."

1 Corinthians 15:51-57 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Read again those verses you are quoting. The promise of eternal life you will see begins at the resurrection, and this takes place at the second coming.

J

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (precede) them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them (the resurrected believers) in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Corinthian 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.... 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. 29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for (Greek:huper — concerning, dealing with, referring to) the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for (Greek:huper — concerning, dealing with, referring to) the dead?
​

And again, with the above verses you are using I would tend to think that you are supporting my argument. The resurrection takes place at the second coming...until then those who are in Christ sleep. They are in their graves unconscious of anything that is taking place around them. They are woken up by the voice of the archangel and the trumpet of God.

 

[ForumAddict]

Forumaddict, in the original Greek there was no punctuation. That verse read like this :"Itellyouthetruthtodayyouwillbewithmeinparadise"
It was the translaters who inserted the punctuation as we read it today, and in this case they made a mistake, being influenced by their preconceived ideas on the after-life. The truth is is that Jesus Himself did not go to heaven or paradise that day, for after the resurrection He said to Mary "touch me not for I have not yet ascended to the Father." Nor is it likely at all that the thieves even died that day. Crucifixion was designed by the Romans to prolong suffering for as long as possible with as much pain as possible without inflicting death.
That is why the guards were so surprised that Jesus had so soon died. The thieves however, having no power over their own lives as Jesus had, needed to have their legs broken, not to kill them, (who dies of broken leg) but to stop them from running away overnight, for it was demanded by the Jews that anyone on a cross over the feast days must be taken down until the feast was over, then put up again. (An example of Jewish law imposing itself above mercy). It is possible that they continued to suffer for at least 2 or more days, as per the intent of Roman justice. The reason Jesus died was not because anyone killed Him, but because He Himself surrendered His life.

Read again those verses you are quoting. The promise of eternal life you will see begins at the resurrection, and this takes place at the second coming.


And again, with the above verses you are using I would tend to think that you are supporting my argument. The resurrection takes place at the second coming...until then those who are in Christ sleep. They are in their graves unconscious of anything that is taking place around them. They are woken up by the voice of the archangel and the trumpet of God.

What makes our placement of punctuation any more correct than

the translaters who inserted the punctuation

?

Tendencies oft time tend to lead us down the wrong path as is evident in this case. Eternal life begins with salvation, the moment we accept Christ as our Lord and Savior, as in the verse provided clearly shows and promises that we are sealed.

I respect your right to your opinion but not to what you claim your opinion says as it is not what the Word says, so we will simply have to agree to disagree but never the less I know my salvation is sealed and will spend eternity in Heaven with Christ. I was saved, am saved and will remain saved, and nothing can snatch me from His hands.

John 14:20

Colossians 2:13-14

I John 5:13

And even as presented in the beginning of your response,

"Itellyouthetruthtodayyouwillbewithmeinparadise"

, proves it even more, it is a guarantee!