This Doctrine does NOT line up with the Word of God!

[RJ]

Let's try this again Where does it state that God says we are to keep HIs laws PERFECTLY!

The wages of sin is death! If we are to keep them perfectly there would be no alive...for all have sinned and come short!


.

Ok, let's do this again:

"Numbers 15:32-36 While the Israelites were in the desert, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. Then the LORD said to Moses, “The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp.” So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses."

Like I said, under Mosaic law, this man was found working on the Sabbath and stoned to death... I would say you had to follow this law perfectly, wouldn't you?!

But, I also said, under the New Covenant, there is no such thing as following any law perfectly!

 

[rizen1]

Either there is to much red or the wrong font is being used, not pleasing on the eyes. Kindly choose one.

 

[rizen1]

Ok, let's do this again:

"Numbers 15:32-36 While the Israelites were in the desert, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. Then the LORD said to Moses, “The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp.” So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses."

Like I said, under Mosaic law, this man was found working on the Sabbath and stoned to death... I would say you had to follow this law perfectly, wouldn't you?!

But, I also said, under the New Covenant, there is no such thing as following any law perfectly!

I believe the question was " Where does it state that God says we are to keep HIs laws PERFECTLY! "
I'm going to do a search myself if you find the verse first please share.

 

[RJ]

I believe the question was " Where does it state that God says we are to keep HIs laws PERFECTLY! "
I'm going to do a search myself if you find the verse first please share.

What am I missing here?

The OT Law mentioned in Numbers 15 means the exact same thing. The man in the passage gave up his life for not following the law perfectly. So, your are now looking for the exact word, "Perfectly"..what's the point?

 

[Eccl12v13]

What am I missing here?

The OT Law mentioned in Numbers 15 means the exact same thing. The man in the passage gave up his life for not following the law perfectly. So, your are now looking for the exact word, "Perfectly"..what's the point?

The wages of sin is death! If we are to keep them perfectly there would be no one alive...for all have sinned and come short!


.

 

[RJ]

The wages of sin is death! If we are to keep them perfectly there would be no one alive...for all have sinned and come short!


.

Never said that we were to keep anything perfectly.

You asked the original question: " Where does it state that God says we are to keep HIs laws PERFECTLY! "

All I was doing was pointing out that this was a requirement from the OT as I qouted from Numbers.

As far as your comment above, I have never said anything otherwise, sounds like to me that it is you who are changing horses mid stream from your original threads.

Have a blessed day!

 

[rizen1]

Never said that we were to keep anything perfectly.

You asked the original question: " Where does it state that God says we are to keep HIs laws PERFECTLY! "

All I was doing was pointing out that this was a requirement from the OT as I qouted from Numbers.

As far as your comment above, I have never said anything otherwise, sounds like to me that it is you who are changing horses mid stream from your original threads.

Have a blessed day!

You can keep the read and blue, just the font seem small.

 

[RJ]

You can keep the read and blue, just the font seem small.

Is this better? I see where to change font type but not the size?

 

[jari]

Hi

Has God changed ?

Can God change ?

The contract/covenant did change, the times have changed, the atmosphere on this earth have changed, but did God change ?

Didn't mean to interrupt, these questions are juggling in my head after reading those verses.

What an awesome God we serve, he gave us life, health, all senses and the luxury to communicate via web.
All glory and honor belong to Him.

in my opinion... its just talking about physical death but doesnt talk about eternal fate. Sin can cause death in body or effect spirituality so our past rightneusness does not help if we start sinning now because the sins consequences are still the same no matter how long we've been righteuss - thats the way i see it.

But i dont see it nessarily talking about salvation....

 

[Eccl12v13]

Never said that we were to keep anything perfectly.


As far as your comment above, I have never said anything otherwise, sounds like to me that it is you who are changing horses mid stream from your original threads.

Have a blessed day!

Please go and look at post #77. It was YOU that said the following, which is what I replied to;

God tells us essentially, for the law to work, we have to keep it perfectly 24/7...if we mess up with one part of the law, we failed all of it!"

To which I ask.... "where in God's word does it state what you claim?"

Where in God's word does it state we MUST keep God's laws perfectly?

That is IMMPOSSIBLE? For ALL have sinned.

I am not changing horses....I am simply replying to your claim!

.

 

[RJ]

Please go and look at post #77. It was YOU that said the following, which is what I replied to;



To which I ask.... "where in God's word does it state what you claim?"

Where in God's word does it state we MUST keep God's laws perfectly?

That is IMMPOSSIBLE? For ALL have sinned.

I am not changing horses....I am simply replying to your claim!

.

O.K., this is what I said:

God tells us essentially, for the law to work, we have to keep it perfectly 24/7...if we mess up with one part of the law, we failed all of it!"


You have taken what I said out of context and got it completely wrong and you didn't look at my threads in entirety.

• First, I mad no qoute. All I did is make a statement that for one to make the law work for their salvation, they would have to do all of them perfectly and all the time; if you ever, just once, failed one law, you failed them all for ever!
• You turn that around and state that I say one has to keep the law perfectly to be saved.....I never said such a thing and anyone who knows God's word wouldn't either.
• God said that the Law was perfect and holy but insufficient and Paul said that we were cursed by the law; all because we are the imperfect ones and not the law.

Here is a verse from James 2 where he talks about in order for the law to work, you have to do all of them and, sum total, I think that there was over 300 laws to keep:
<SUP>10</SUP> For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

 

[Eccl12v13]

All I did is make a statement that for one to make the law work for their salvation, they would have to do all of them perfectly and all the time; if you ever, just once, failed one law, you failed them all for ever!

And again...where does it say what you claim in God's word? Where in God's word does it state that we fail ALL of them forever?

Let me ask you something....All have sinned right? But do you know some people that have NEVER killed someone? I do. So did they break God's law of "Do not murder"? No they have not. So they have NOT broken all of God's laws have they?

You have taken what was said in James 2 the wrong way.

If you read James again you will note that he tells us to KEEP a law. Now why would James tell us to keep a law if he knows we cannot keep them perfectly? And why would he tell us to keep a law if he knows that WHEN we beak it we break them ALL?

Does that make any sense?

.

.

 

[David777]

Hello Eccl12v13.

You said,

"Let me ask you something....All have sinned right?
But do you know some people that have NEVER killed someone?
I do. So did they break God's law of "Do not murder"?
No they have not. So they have NOT broken all of God's laws have they?"

Remember, that if you conceive the thought then you have broken
the commandment. That probably narrows down the field
somewhat.

The only way into heaven is through Jesus Christ.

 

[jari]

You said,

"Let me ask you something....All have sinned right?
But do you know some people that have NEVER killed someone?
I do. So did they break God's law of "Do not murder"?
No they have not. So they have NOT broken all of God's laws have they?"

Remember, that if you conceive the thought then you have broken
the commandment. That probably narrows down the field
somewhat.

The only way into heaven is through Jesus Christ.

Amen


Jas 2:8-12 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: (9) But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. (10) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. (11) For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

(12) So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Not under the law:

Rom 8:1-4 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (2) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. (3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: (4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

 

[RJ]

And again...where does it say what you claim in God's word? Where in God's word does it state that we fail ALL of them forever?

Let me ask you something....All have sinned right? But do you know some people that have NEVER killed someone? I do. So did they break God's law of "Do not murder"? No they have not. So they have NOT broken all of God's laws have they?

You have taken what was said in James 2 the wrong way.

If you read James again you will note that he tells us to KEEP a law. Now why would James tell us to keep a law if he knows we cannot keep them perfectly? And why would he tell us to keep a law if he knows that WHEN we beak it we break them ALL?

Does that make any sense?


.

Please read one more time:

Here are 3 different bible versions that all say the same and mean the same thing!

For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.
<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

<SUP>10</SUP> Anyone who tries to keep all of the Law but fails at one point is guilty of failing to keep all of it.


<SUP>10</SUP>For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.



I am sorry but it is you who makes no sense. Where is your example of keeping a law as you say?


We all know that James, as all the other Apostles, were preaching to the Jew mostly and had to constantly battle with the Old Law (legalism) mentality.


Many times they were just like their religious leaders, the Pharisees. They all were ignorant of the law and biased. They constantly would bring up that they do this and they do that and therefore uphold the law.


James brought up his example of the poor man rich man, where the rich man gets preferential treatment. The Pharisees were notorious biggots and always demanded to be seated at the head of table.


Again, James was addressing the Jew and that though they may do many good things according to the law, if they mess up on one law (and by then they had hundreds of them), they failed all of them.


The point was that they could not gain salvation by way of the the law, they need to leave the temple and blood sacrifices and become Christians.

Not under the law:


Rom 8:1-4 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (2) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. (3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: (4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit

 

[Eccl12v13]

I am sorry but it is you who makes no sense. Where is your example of keeping a law as you say?

Are we to have respect of persons?

Should we do our best to keep this law?

Paul kept God's laws! Paul taught others that God's laws should be kept. Why would he do that if he believed it was impossible to do? Why would he even attempt to keep them if God's word says it was impossible to do?


.

 

[RJ]

Are we to have respect of persons?

Should we do our best to keep this law?

Paul kept God's laws! Paul taught others that God's laws should be kept. Why would he do that if he believed it was impossible to do? Why would he even attempt to keep them if God's word says it was impossible to do?


.

My friend, no disrespect but, as little as you know of God's word, You should not make such bold statements with out scripture.

Please provide scriptures to support your stance that Paul kept God's laws?

The truth is, as I have discussed, for God's laws to work for man, man must do all of them and do it perfectly every day, 24/7. Again:

James 2:10,
10 Anyone who tries to keep all of the Law but fails at one point is guilty of failing to keep all of it.

10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.



I will provide scripture that says your statement about Paul is incorrect:

• If you are willing, go to Romans 7 and read where Pauls said the he struggled with sin and the law.
• Then go to Romans 8:1 and see what his answer was!

Look How Paul referes to the law as a curse:

• All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”
  Galatians 3:9-11
• Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.”
  Galatians 3:12-14

Elsewhere:

• No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him.
  Revelation 22:2-4

 

[Eccl12v13]

My friend, no disrespect but, as little as you know of God's word, You should not make such bold statements with out scripture.

Please provide scriptures to support your stance that Paul kept God's laws?

Are you kidding me? Do you not think that when Paul read God's laws he did not try his best to keep them?

And do you not think that once he read God's laws and knew the consequences for NOT keeping them that he didn't tell others they should keep them also?

Paul kept God's laws to the best of his ability AND he told others that THEY had to keep God's laws also!

Matt.15
[19] Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

.

 

[jiggyfly]

Why do these people always seem to quote
from the same letters. Are they all taught from
the same theological school?

Always from Matthew and James, both letters
are written to Jewish readers.

They definitely do not understand the difference
between the flesh and the Spirit.

This is not from above, that's for sure.

Sorry David for the late reply, I just noticed your post addressed to me.
I think the answer is found in Romans 7.
4 So, my dear brothers and sisters, this is the point: You died to the power of the law when you died with Christ. And now you are united with the one who was raised from the dead. As a result, we can produce a harvest of good deeds for God.5 When we were controlled by our old nature, sinful desires were at work within us, and the law aroused these evil desires that produced a harvest of sinful deeds, resulting in death.6 But now we have been released from the law, for we died to it and are no longer captive to its power. Now we can serve God, not in the old way of obeying the letter of the law, but in the new way of living in the Spirit.
Romans 7:4-6 (NLT)

Those who are not dead to the law obviously have not died with Christ yet and living in and by HolySpirit.

 

[RJ]

Are you kidding me? Do you not think that when Paul read God's laws he did not try his best to keep them?

And do you not think that once he read God's laws and knew the consequences for NOT keeping them that he didn't tell others they should keep them also?

Paul kept God's laws to the best of his ability AND he told others that THEY had to keep God's laws also!

Matt.15
[19] Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

.

You didn't even read Romans 7 did you?

Sure Paul wanted to keep them but he realized he couldn't keep all of the all the time. Don't forget that he personally witnessed Jesus Christ on a personal level that you and I only dream of. Even you said to the best of his ability! But the best of your ability is not good enough under the law, that's why Paul, knew better, that the New Covenant replace the law for salvation.

Yes Paul knew the laws were holy and righteous but, the Scriptures from Galatians he called the law a curse but, of course you obviously didn't read that either.

I agree that the laws are holy and important to strive for but it is equally important to know, again as Paul said, we are no longer under the curse of the law but under love and grace.

Your quote from Matthew is not 15:19 but 5:19.

I will tell you something else that you probably won't believe, your use of Matthew here supports my statements.

Anytime in the New Tesatament and before Jesus died on the cross, everyone was under the law. So, of course he told the people to follow the law as much as he did and, he did it perfectly.

look at Matthew 5:18, the verse just before the one you were trying to qoute, vs. 19...:

<SUP>18</SUP> I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Now look at vs. 17:

<SUP>17</SUP> “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Prophecy was a part of the law and Jesus came to fulfill or complete the law by his death and resurrection, upon which he ushered in a New Covenant and a new law of love and grace. That is why Paul said that we are no longer under the curse of the law that kills and does not save but, we are under love and grace that forgives and saves.

As in vs. 18 above, nothing from the law is to be replaced, it is still intact and will remain intact until the New Heaven and Earth and we are all in heaven.

The laws purpose was to show man his sin and not to save, that still remains.

I never said the law was not still with us!

Make no mistake though, for salvation, the Old Covenant and all its laws were replaced by the New Covenant, grace and acomplished by the gospel that Paul said he preached:
"The death, burial abd resurrection of Jesus Christ!