John 3:16 - What does it mean?

[gdemoss]

While working out a study on the basic text of John 3:16 I discovered the following:

1. Of the Greek manuscripts that I have:
   • The Apostolic Bible Polyglot
   • Byzantine Greek New Testament
   • Westcott & Hort Greek New Testament
   • Textus Receptus Greek New Testament

All agree on the same Greek text for this verse except for the word ουτως or ουτω, the 'ς' on the end of the word denotes that it comes before a vowel. This minor variation does not effect the meaning of the verse.

Here are just a few of our English translations available. I tried to keep the number low so I selected only those texts that seemed to differ greatly.

New International Version (©1984)
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

New Living Translation (©2007)
"For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

English Standard Version (©2001)
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

International Standard Version (©2008)
"For this is how God loved the world: He gave his unique Son so that everyone who believes in him might not be lost but have eternal life.

Bible in Basic English
For God had such love for the world that he gave his only Son, so that whoever has faith in him may not come to destruction but have eternal life.

Weymouth New Testament
For so greatly did God love the world that He gave His only Son, that every one who trusts in Him may not perish but may have the Life of Ages.

Young's Literal Translation
for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

As one can see when reading the various translations of the Greek text, there are some variations which make little difference at all. 'Whosoever', 'whoever', 'everyone' and 'every one' all give the same basic understanding although they are different words. Same with 'Who believes', 'has trust', 'has faith in' etc. But the last phrase I highlighted contains variations such as 'should not perish', 'shall not perish' and 'will not perish'. These do not agree.

What we need to do is take a look at the words or phrases in question and work to understand what they are truly saying in the Greek vernacular.

τὸν υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ - the son the only one

μονογενῆ - is the word that seems to be translated different above. The following is taken from Thayers Greek Lexicon.

1. single of its kind, only
   • used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents)
   • used of Christ, denotes the only begotten son of God

In the KJV, the term 'only begotten' is only used when speaking of Jesus. The same Greek word is translated 'the only', 'only child' and 'one only' when referencing other peoples children. Then we have Abraham who actually had 2 children at the time he offered up Isaac. This word is translated 'his only begotten' to describe Isaac even though Ishmael was begotten by him. We also know that Adam is referred to as the son of God as well as angels are referred to as the sons of God. Jesus of course is called the son of God.

If we stay with the concept of 'single of its kind' then we can make sense of it. Isaac was the son of promise as single of kind. Each of the people spoken of who only had one child were single of their kind. So here we must examine how Jesus was 'single of his kind' as opposed to all the other sons of God. Jesus was the only one who God actually brought into the creation using a woman and didn't begin his existence there. Jesus had enjoyed fellowship with the Father before the world began.

It would seem to me that 'the only begotten son' would best suit for clarity but it doesn't make the others wrong.

πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν - any who believe in him

All of our translations are basically saying the same thing. Unfortunately they do not capture the essence of what can be understood in the Greek.

πιστεύων the word translated for believe is actually a 'present active participle' in the Greek. Participles denote a continuous action. So the person spoken of here is both presently and continuously believing or having faith in Jesus. One who stops believing would not be being referred to in this verse even if he/she initially believed. Everyone who is continuously believing in him is a fuller translation of the text. Once again this does not make our translations inaccurate.

μὴ ἀπόληται - not perish

ἀπόληται the word translated for perish/destruction/lost is actually a 'aorist middle subjunctive' in the Greek. Aorist denotes a punticular or single event. Subjunctive denotes that something is merely a possibility and not a guarantee. Middle denotes that the subject is actually acting upon themselves or in their own interest.

The Greek is really saying 'may not cause themselves to perish'.

ἀλλ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον - but have life eternal

ἔχῃ - once again we have 'present active subjunctive' and the subjunctive means that this is only a possibility and not a guarantee. Herein we find that we do have translations that are inaccurately translating the text. It should not be translated as a definite.

In the end we should understand that: God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that any who continuously are believing in him should not cause themselves to perish but might have eternal life.

The guarantee is God made it possible.

This of course is just a look at a verse by itself and not considering it within the context in which it was written. To understand more about the verse itself we would need to understand it within the context of John 3:1-21. And doing that would reveal more.

Gary

 

[jari]

your trying to say that Jesus doesnt save anyone. and you have to save your self. and Jesus didnt do anything for you. And that Jesus didnt even need to die.

yes to many people Jesus death and rising means nothing.

but I think 3:16 is saying it means lot. Its fact only thing that matters. Because your saved by faith.

not by anything else.

 

[gdemoss]

your trying to say that Jesus doesnt save anyone. and you have to save your self. and Jesus didnt do anything for you. And that Jesus didnt even need to die.

Jari, I am not trying to say anything. I just want the text to speak for itself. I don't understand how you came to your conclusions. The text says that it is through believing or faith. The faith in Jesus is what saves. It says that the 'faith' you have in Jesus keeps you from doing the things that would cause you to perish. It is all about the continuous faith. Because of my faith in Christ and his shed blood on the cross I am not a drunkard, fornicator, idolater or adulterer.

yes to many people Jesus death and rising means nothing.

but I think 3:16 is saying it means lot. Its fact only thing that matters. Because your saved by faith.

not by anything else.

I agree with you whole heartedly. We are saved by faith alone. The bible declares it. We can only be saved by faith. We can only be condemned by works.

 

[brakelite]

While working out a study on the basic text of John 3:16 I discovered the following:

1. Of the Greek manuscripts that I have:
   • The Apostolic Bible Polyglot
   • Byzantine Greek New Testament
   • Westcott & Hort Greek New Testament
   • Textus Receptus Greek New Testament

All agree on the same Greek text for this verse except for the word ουτως or ουτω, the 'ς' on the end of the word denotes that it comes before a vowel. This minor variation does not effect the meaning of the verse.

Here are just a few of our English translations available. I tried to keep the number low so I selected only those texts that seemed to differ greatly.

New International Version (©1984)
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

New Living Translation (©2007)
"For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

English Standard Version (©2001)
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

International Standard Version (©2008)
"For this is how God loved the world: He gave his unique Son so that everyone who believes in him might not be lost but have eternal life.

Bible in Basic English
For God had such love for the world that he gave his only Son, so that whoever has faith in him may not come to destruction but have eternal life.

Weymouth New Testament
For so greatly did God love the world that He gave His only Son, that every one who trusts in Him may not perish but may have the Life of Ages.

Young's Literal Translation
for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

As one can see when reading the various translations of the Greek text, there are some variations which make little difference at all. 'Whosoever', 'whoever', 'everyone' and 'every one' all give the same basic understanding although they are different words. Same with 'Who believes', 'has trust', 'has faith in' etc. But the last phrase I highlighted contains variations such as 'should not perish', 'shall not perish' and 'will not perish'. These do not agree.

What we need to do is take a look at the words or phrases in question and work to understand what they are truly saying in the Greek vernacular.

τὸν υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ - the son the only one

μονογενῆ - is the word that seems to be translated different above. The following is taken from Thayers Greek Lexicon.

1. single of its kind, only
   • used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents)
   • used of Christ, denotes the only begotten son of God

In the KJV, the term 'only begotten' is only used when speaking of Jesus. The same Greek word is translated 'the only', 'only child' and 'one only' when referencing other peoples children. Then we have Abraham who actually had 2 children at the time he offered up Isaac. This word is translated 'his only begotten' to describe Isaac even though Ishmael was begotten by him. We also know that Adam is referred to as the son of God as well as angels are referred to as the sons of God. Jesus of course is called the son of God.

If we stay with the concept of 'single of its kind' then we can make sense of it. Isaac was the son of promise as single of kind. Each of the people spoken of who only had one child were single of their kind. So here we must examine how Jesus was 'single of his kind' as opposed to all the other sons of God. Jesus was the only one who God actually brought into the creation using a woman and didn't begin his existence there. Jesus had enjoyed fellowship with the Father before the world began.

It would seem to me that 'the only begotten son' would best suit for clarity but it doesn't make the others wrong.

πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν - any who believe in him

All of our translations are basically saying the same thing. Unfortunately they do not capture the essence of what can be understood in the Greek.

πιστεύων the word translated for believe is actually a 'present active participle' in the Greek. Participles denote a continuous action. So the person spoken of here is both presently and continuously believing or having faith in Jesus. One who stops believing would not be being referred to in this verse even if he/she initially believed. Everyone who is continuously believing in him is a fuller translation of the text. Once again this does not make our translations inaccurate.

μὴ ἀπόληται - not perish

ἀπόληται the word translated for perish/destruction/lost is actually a 'aorist middle subjunctive' in the Greek. Aorist denotes a punticular or single event. Subjunctive denotes that something is merely a possibility and not a guarantee. Middle denotes that the subject is actually acting upon themselves or in their own interest.

The Greek is really saying 'may not cause themselves to perish'.

ἀλλ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον - but have life eternal

ἔχῃ - once again we have 'present active subjunctive' and the subjunctive means that this is only a possibility and not a guarantee. Herein we find that we do have translations that are inaccurately translating the text. It should not be translated as a definite.

In the end we should understand that: God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that any who continuously are believing in him should not cause themselves to perish but might have eternal life.

The guarantee is God made it possible.

This of course is just a look at a verse by itself and not considering it within the context in which it was written. To understand more about the verse itself we would need to understand it within the context of John 3:1-21. And doing that would reveal more.

Gary

Thanks for that Gary, very interesting for someone such as myself whose knowledge of Greek is extremely minimal at best.
I am interested in that word 'perish' or as you quoted in some translations, 'destruction', ἀπόληται. Why is it that despite such a clear pronouncement by Jesus Himself on the fate of the unbelieving wicked, Christians persist in the belief that the wicked do not perish at all, but have eternal life along with the saved? Albeit at a different address?

Would I be correct that the 'subjunctive' aspect of those words would mean that perishing and living (which I believe are opposites) could both be described as conditional?

 

[MsMree]

Much appreciated post!

It puts "faith without works is dead" in a different light.. do you think?

Like it says "if we continuously believe we might not cause ourselves to perish" so it would explain why some who did called Jesus "Lord" and did works in his name were called evildoers?

New International Version (NIV)

Luke 13:25-28

25 Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’

“But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’

26 “Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’

27 “But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’

Matthew 7:21-24

True and False Disciples
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

We need to both believe continuously and produce fruit in keeping with that belief?

Again, thank you for your time to make this post!

 

[jari]

Jari, I am not trying to say anything. I just want the text to speak for itself. I don't understand how you came to your conclusions. The text says that it is through believing or faith. The faith in Jesus is what saves. It says that the 'faith' you have in Jesus keeps you from doing the things that would cause you to perish. It is all about the continuous faith. Because of my faith in Christ and his shed blood on the cross I am not a drunkard, fornicator, idolater or adulterer.



I agree with you whole heartedly. We are saved by faith alone. The bible declares it. We can only be saved by faith. We can only be condemned by works.

Salvation is instant. its not aprocess to keep you believing... It all comes to John 3. We must be Born again . This is not a process to be born again everyday but it happens once.
The faith you need for that is "saving faith". you must believe in John 3:16. Thats why Jesus said it because He was talking about becoming born again.


Oh you believe we may still be judged by works? I dont believe that at all. otherwise grace would be no grace at all, anymore. Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.



Have a good day!

 

[jari]

Much appreciated post!

It puts "faith without works is dead" in a different light.. do you think?

Like it says "if we continuously believe we might not cause ourselves to perish" so it would explain why some who did called Jesus "Lord" and did works in his name were called evildoers?

New International Version (NIV)

Luke 13:25-28

25 Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’

“But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’

26 “Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’

27 “But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’

Matthew 7:21-24

True and False Disciples
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

We need to both believe continuously and produce fruit in keeping with that belief?

Again, thank you for your time to make this post!

In the verses you posted. Why does Jesus not regognize them as His own? As His childs?
Because they were not born again. The phrase "did we not eat and drink with you? and you thaught in our streets?" Gives away that the people merely were listening to Jesus but didnt receive Him yet as their savior.


Bible tells that we have become God's children..
Just what kind of answer is from father to child I never knew you?

It makes no sense to me.

Well looking forward what your thoughts are.

God bless.

 

[RJ]

Salvation is instant. its not aprocess to keep you believing... It all comes to John 3. We must be Born again . This is not a process to be born again everyday but it happens once.
The faith you need for that is "saving faith". you must believe in John 3:16. Thats why Jesus said it because He was talking about becoming born again.


Oh you believe we may still be judged by works? I dont believe that at all. otherwise grace would be no grace at all, anymore. Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.



Have a good day!

I agree!

Works is a sign that you have been born again and are saved.

Also, Jesus told Nicodemus you have two births:

One of the flesh, by your natural human parents and one of the Spirit and from above. Flesh gives life to the flesh and the Spirit gives life to the spirit.

Though it is not written exactly in this way, I beleive when Jesus said that you must be born again or anew, it is true with both births, there is no such thing as being unborn....as, with both births, it is one time and forever.

I don't see anywhere in scripture where it says your are "Born Again" as long as you stay born again!...which would really be an oximoron.

 

[Stickz]

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. The way that some interpret this set of verses seems—to me—to contradict other verses in scripture:

Mark 9:38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.

Mark 9:39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. According to this verse, can just anyone perform a miracle in Jesus' name? I, personally, interpret this verse as saying that no one can perform a miracle in Jesus' name unless they are believers. No unbeliever can do this.

Acts 19:11 And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:

Acts 19:12 So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.

Acts 19:13 Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth.

Acts 19:14 And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so.

Acts 19:15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?

Acts 19:16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.

Acts 19:17 And this was known to all the Jews and Greeks also dwelling at Ephesus; and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified. This event taken from the book of Acts also shows that not just anyone can cast demons out in Jesus' name. It takes someone that was given the authority to do so, and the authority has to have come from God. And I can't see God letting non-believers run around with this authority. These powers were given to men and women throughout scripture so that their words could be more easily believed, that they had come from God; giving these same powers to unbelievers, to perform in Jesus' name, would cause confusion, and we all know that God is not the author of confusion. Even Jesus said, in the gospel of John, that if they had a difficult time believing his words they should, at least, believe him for the very "works" sake.

Jeremiah 23:16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD.

Jeremiah 23:17 They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.

Jeremiah 23:18 For who hath stood in the counsel of the LORD, and hath perceived and heard his word? who hath marked his word, and heard it?

Jeremiah 23:19 Behold, a whirlwind of the LORD is gone forth in fury, even a grievous whirlwind: it shall fall grievously upon the head of the wicked.

Jeremiah 23:20 The anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly.

Jeremiah 23:21 I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.

Jeremiah 23:22 But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings. Do these people, referred to here in Jeremiah, know that they are lying in the name of the Lord? Or are they greatly deceived to the point that, perhaps, they actually thought that they were really getting messages from God to give to the people? I believe that everyone must truly believe in what they are doing, otherwise they wouldn't be doing it.

Jeremiah 28:9 The prophet which prophesieth of peace, when the word of the prophet shall come to pass, then shall the prophet be known, that the LORD hath truly sent him. After having said this, do you think that it even makes sense to think that God would also allow unbelievers to prophecy events that actually happen?

There is too much scattered text to try to put into a post here, but if one used a Strong's Concordance, and looked into these things, it should be obvious that a person cannot live a life performing miracles in Jesus' name having not been born-again. They could lie and say that they had been, but reading Matthew 7:21-23 as though it were referring to people that were trying to "work" their way into salvation is an errant interpretation of these verses. These people could not have been doing the things that they claimed to have done. In my opinion, people who believe that they are Christians but are not true Christians are what is being referred to here.

Someone who had actually been "prophesying" and "casting out devils" in Jesus' name would not have been working iniquity. The power to do so can only come from God, and I do not see anywhere in scripture where anyone was doing anything in Jesus' name that was not also a genuine believer.

John 9:1-41

John 9:30 The man answered and said unto them, Why herein is a marvellous thing, that ye know not from whence he is, and yet he hath opened mine eyes.

John 9:31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth. Unbelievers cannot just go around healing and prophesying and casting out devils.

John 9:32 Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind.

John 9:33 If this man were not of God, he could do nothing.

I know that this is just the words of a man that Jesus healed, in the gospel of John, but when you read the entire context of the chapter, no one argued with what he had said, they just became angry and threw him out.

If there was someone on the earth right now that was healing people left and right, was prophesying events that came to pass, was raising people from the dead, but was preaching something different than what we believe, how many of us would convince ourselves that this person was not from God?

By the way, gdemoss, I agree with you on John 3:16, I've been reading it that way for years.

I think that I might have rambled some, so sorry for that, but hopefully my point was clear enough.

 

[jari]

The thing is stickz that Judas was with them casting out demons and serving Lord. This was also time when none of the disciples had been born again. And what Judas did after that was that he betrayed Jesus. Even after all that.
Because He didnt have the saving faith to become child of God. He only believed for while it was worth following Jesus and I wonder what was his motivation for this to begin with. He even stole money from their treasury.

Obviously he didnt believe in Jesus for his salvation after all. Otherwise he wouldnt have betrayed Jesus if he had believed that he was the messiah.

 

[Christ4Ever]

To me it means a promise of Life! Alleluia! Amen!

 

[MsMree]

Stickz, I found your reply useful to the extent that I could understand it! Thank you

Would you clarify what you're saying?

So the Matthew 7:21-24 verses say evildoers WILL be able to prophesy and perform miracles?

You are saying that a person's message can be something different to what we believe but if they are prophesying and working miracles then we should listen to them?

Sorry but, how are they driving out demons if you think they can't do it without being believers but Jesus is calling them evildoers?

I'm just lost! Thank you for your time responding.

 

[gdemoss]

Thanks for that Gary, very interesting for someone such as myself whose knowledge of Greek is extremely minimal at best.
I am interested in that word 'perish' or as you quoted in some translations, 'destruction', ἀπόληται. Why is it that despite such a clear pronouncement by Jesus Himself on the fate of the unbelieving wicked, Christians persist in the belief that the wicked do not perish at all, but have eternal life along with the saved? Albeit at a different address?

Would I be correct that the 'subjunctive' aspect of those words would mean that perishing and living (which I believe are opposites) could both be described as conditional?

The root word ἀπόλλυμι has a range of meaning all of which pertain to destroying:

1. 1) to destroy
   • to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
   • render useless
   • to kill
   • to declare that one must be put to death
   • metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
   • to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
2. 2) to destroy
   • to lose

There is no doubt that the scriptures teach that the wicked will not have eternal life. Why anyone teaches different is easy to explain. The bible says that there are those who are deceived and go about deceiving others. This why we should all be praying that we not be deceived. Many warnings against deception in scripture.

The Subjunctive means possible therefore I suppose one would say that they were also conditional. If something is only possible then there must be conditions met when it becomes reality. In this case if the right conditions are met one won't perish but have life.

Much appreciated post!

It puts "faith without works is dead" in a different light.. do you think?

Like it says "if we continuously believe we might not cause ourselves to perish" so it would explain why some who did called Jesus "Lord" and did works in his name were called evildoers?

We need to both believe continuously and produce fruit in keeping with that belief?

Again, thank you for your time to make this post!

Yes it is entirely possible to be a believer and an evildoer. For example the sect of the Pharisees' that rose up saying that gentile believers must be circumcised and follow the law of Moses. They believed that Jesus was the Son of God and the way to heaven but they were spreading heresy. According to the bible heretics will be damned. For more clarity the word used for 'sect' in the bible is the same word used for 'heresy' in the Greek. A 'sect' in this sense is a group following their own interpretations of scripture that deviate from the truth.

What the bible teaches that we need for salvation is faith that Jesus Christ is both Lord and Savior. We will be judged by our works, but only for the purposes of validating our testimony of Christ. Will our works justify our faith? Or will we be told 'depart from me you worker of iniquity I never knew you'?

Salvation is instant. its not aprocess to keep you believing... It all comes to John 3. We must be Born again . This is not a process to be born again everyday but it happens once.
The faith you need for that is "saving faith". you must believe in John 3:16. Thats why Jesus said it because He was talking about becoming born again.

There is a lot of confusion over what it means to be born again. Everyone who is allowed into the Kingdom of heaven must be born again. This includes Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Adam, Eve, Abel, Enoch and all the rest of the Old Testament Saints. One becomes born again when the hear the world of God and believe it. Please don't mix up the new birth with the idea that you cannot die the second death as this isn't so. You can be born twice and die twice. Jesus came so that you might not cause yourself to die the second time. But it isn't a guarantee.

Oh you believe we may still be judged by works? I dont believe that at all. otherwise grace would be no grace at all, anymore. Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

How else will the judge decide whether you really believe what you claim you believe? Grace is making it possible for us as we deserve nothing more than eternal death and damnation. It is impossible for you to 'work' your way to heaven, you have already blown it. But it is possible for God to justifiably give mercy to those who repent and follow Jesus (doing his works) because he is the righteous sacrifice for sin. Those that do, die to themselves and live for God. Those that don't burn in the lake of fire.

I believe that everyone must truly believe in what they are doing, otherwise they wouldn't be doing it.



By the way, gdemoss, I agree with you on John 3:16, I've been reading it that way for years.

I think that I might have rambled some, so sorry for that, but hopefully my point was clear enough.

You made some excellent points in your post. Paul agrees with you when he said that he keeps under his body lest after having preached to others he should become a castaway. The word for castaway is ἀδόκιμος which means - not standing the test, not approved. Just as he made sure to keep a good conscience before God and man because he knew that there was a Resurrection of the just and the unjust coming Acts 24:14-16. He didn't want to be told 'depart from me you worker of iniquity' even though he cast out devils and done many wonderful works in Jesus name.

I also hold the same opinion that all people live by their faith. When I believed there was no God, my works showed it. When I came to believe that there was a God, my works showed it. When I came to believe that Jesus was the Son of God and salvation was through him, my works showed it. When I learned that my faith needed to be justified by my works....once again my works showed it. Each time my works changed with my new belief and always for the better.

The thing is stickz that Judas was with them casting out demons and serving Lord. This was also time when none of the disciples had been born again. And what Judas did after that was that he betrayed Jesus. Even after all that.
Because He didnt have the saving faith to become child of God. He only believed for while it was worth following Jesus and I wonder what was his motivation for this to begin with. He even stole money from their treasury.

Obviously he didnt believe in Jesus for his salvation after all. Otherwise he wouldnt have betrayed Jesus if he had believed that he was the messiah.

It is possible to believe and be evil (Acts 15:5). Judas was never repentant of his sin. We must remember that all of Jesus' disciples were evil (Matt 7:11) but only one was a devil (Jn 6:70). Judas had faith, he followed a homeless man who claimed to be the son of God around for 3 years. Judas did not have saving faith, true. He chose to betray Jesus and leave him...he became an apostate (Heb 6:4-6). This is possible for any Christian to do.

All of you provide very stimulating conversation that requires me to meditate on what God has said and I love you for it. Have a wonderful evening.

Gary

 

[james g]

Could the good news of the Gospel be more explicit? "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16). "Whosoever" includes you: you can thank God for that! You escape everlasting death and enter into everlasting life by believing on the Son. Born to die, you are reborn to live. "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life; and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life" (John 3:36).

What a relief! God laid all your sins upon His perfect Son when He was on the Cross of Calvary. The Lord Jesus took all your sin into death, thereby paying for your justly-earned penalty. Since He Himself had not sin, He was free to come out from under the paid penalty and rise from the dead. He "was delivered for our offenses, and was raised again for our justification" (Romans 4:25).

FREELY FORGIVEN - Now God can justly say to you, "Full payment has been made. Receive My beloved Son as your personal payment, and you will be free from the first Adam and born again into the Last Adam."

Yes, Jesus paid it all! "All things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ.... For he hath made him (Jesus), who knew no sin, to be sin for us, that we might be made the righteousness of God in him" (2 Corinthians. 5:18,21).



All sinners - Rom. 3:23
Result - death - Rom. 6:23

Heaven perfect - Rev. 21:27

Cannot earn - Eph. 2:8, 9

Christ paid and gives righteousness - II Cor. 5:21; Phil. 3:9
Only believe - John 3:16 Know you have eternal life - I John 5:13

 

[Peace Seeker]

Could the good news of the Gospel be more explicit? "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16). "Whosoever" includes you: you can thank God for that! You escape everlasting death and enter into everlasting life by believing on the Son. Born to die, you are reborn to live. "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life; and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life" (John 3:36).

What a relief! God laid all your sins upon His perfect Son when He was on the Cross of Calvary. The Lord Jesus took all your sin into death, thereby paying for your justly-earned penalty. Since He Himself had not sin, He was free to come out from under the paid penalty and rise from the dead. He "was delivered for our offenses, and was raised again for our justification" (Romans 4:25).

FREELY FORGIVEN - Now God can justly say to you, "Full payment has been made. Receive My beloved Son as your personal payment, and you will be free from the first Adam and born again into the Last Adam."

Yes, Jesus paid it all! "All things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ.... For he hath made him (Jesus), who knew no sin, to be sin for us, that we might be made the righteousness of God in him" (2 Corinthians. 5:18,21).



All sinners - Rom. 3:23
Result - death -
Rom. 6:23

Heaven perfect -
Rev. 21:27

Cannot earn -
Eph. 2:8, 9

Christ paid and gives righteousness -
II Cor. 5:21; Phil. 3:9
Only believe -
John 3:16 Know you have eternal life - I John 5:13

Amen! Very nicely said. What amazing love and wonderful provision God gave us in Jesus Christ !

 

[Stickz]

Jari: He even stole money from their treasury.

Can you provide scripture for this?

Jari:The thing is stickz that Judas was with them casting out demons and serving Lord. This was also time when none of the disciples had been born again. And what Judas did after that was that he betrayed Jesus. Even after all that.
Because He didnt have the saving faith to become child of God. He only believed for while it was worth following Jesus and I wonder what was his motivation for this to begin with. He even stole money from their treasury.

Obviously he didnt believe in Jesus for his salvation after all. Otherwise he wouldnt have betrayed Jesus if he had believed that he was the messiah.

Yeah, one can view Judas that way if they choose, Jari, but I see a guy that followed Jesus for three years, every day. When others stopped following Jesus, Judas stayed. Jesus always said things that offended people. Jesus was quick to correct and rebuke them for things, so I'm sure that following him wasn't always the most pleasant thing in the world to do. But, Judas did it right up to the end. Then—

Matthew 27:1 When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death:

Matthew 27:2 And when they had bound him, they led him away, and delivered him to Pontius Pilate the governor.

Matthew 27:3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

Matthew 27:4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.

Matthew 27:5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.

—this doesn't really strike me as the cold-hearted, spawn-of-Satan kind of person that is usually described when people talk of Judas. He felt badly, and knew that Jesus was innocent. Doesn't sound like someone that was completely heartless, does it?

It took faith for the disciples to have used the powers that Jesus gave them, and if Judas ever actually healed or cast out demons, then he also must have had the faith to do so.

The first chapter of Acts tells us that Judas' office, his bishoprick, had to be filled by another. Judas had been elected by God to have a part with the other eleven apostles, but he didn't hold on to it. I see Judas as fallen away, Jari, and you see him as having not been able to attain salvation.

MrsMree: Stickz, I found your reply useful to the extent that I could understand it! Thank you

Would you clarify what you're saying?

So the Matthew 7:21-24 verses say evildoers WILL be able to prophesy and perform miracles?

You are saying that a person's message can be something different to what we believe but if they are prophesying and working miracles then we should listen to them?

Sorry but, how are they driving out demons if you think they can't do it without being believers but Jesus is calling them evildoers?

I'm just lost! Thank you for your time responding.

MrsMree, how many people do you know of that prophesy about things that come to pass? Or people that truly perform miracles that cannot be explained any other way?

I believe that the people being referred to in Matthew 7:21-23 are either people that had believed but returned to living in the flesh ( giving up their walk with God ), or people that were never really true believers to begin with but had possibly even convinced themselves that they were performing some of these things for and through the Lord. MrsMree, do you believe that people can feign having some of the gifts of the Holy Ghost?

Do you think that there are any people in the world who believe that they are saved, but are not? I think that most of us would answer "yes" to this question. They are 100% sure that they are saved though, right? We're all sure that we are saved, and yet we can't agree on anything. I'm not great at math, but I'm sure that it is safe to say that we cannot all be right, but it is possible that we could all be wrong.

The verses that follow those in question to keep things in context:

Matthew 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Matthew 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

Matthew 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

Matthew 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Here are some more verses:

Matthew 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

Matthew 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:

Matthew 12:26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? Does Satan cast out Satan? Judging by what was said here, I would say no.

Matthew 12:27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.

Matthew 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

Matthew 12:29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

Matthew 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad. Taking this verse in context ( feel free to read the verses that follow this one for yourself ) I would say that an unbeliever is not with Jesus and therefore against him. This unbeliever will also be one that does not gather and therefore scattereth abroad. How could someone like this ever help out anyone by healing or casting out demons or prophesying, etc ...?

And keep in mind, MrsMree, that it doesn't say that these people did prophesy or cast out demons, it says that many will say that they did these things. Today, there are a lot of people that claim to speak in tongues, and it is a very difficult gift to prove. I think that that is the reason that the Bible tells us that tongues is a gift for the unbeliever and not the believer. There are many churches where tongues is the only gift that anyone claims to have and I have to admit, I do find that a little suspicious. There are many well-known evangelists that claim the gifts of healing but the groups that follow them around trying to verify just one of those reported miracles always claim that there was nothing to it.

I believe that if someone is claiming that they have some gift from God, they better have that gift or they are condemning themselves.

I Thessalonians 1:5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

Galatians 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you in the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? How did the people from Matthew 7:21-23 perform the things that they said they performed, by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Or, is there another option that Paul forgot to mention?

Galatians 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

Galatians 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Galatians 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Galatians 3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Someone that has the faith to perform a miracle in Jesus' name cannot possibly be an unbeliever at the time of that miracle.

Give me someone, besides Judas, from scripture that prophesied or cast out devils in Jesus' name that, we can tell from scripture, was also an unbeliever.

What made Jesus the Messiah, his words or his works? There were people that believed in Jesus because of the things that he did. They seemed to know that evil people, or unbelievers, couldn't just do these things. Saying that unbelievers can perform these deeds causes problems with scripture.

I rambled again, MrsMree, sorry. Hopefully I answered your questions. If not, show me what I missed.

 

[agua]

...........
He even stole money from their treasury.
.........

Joh 12:4-6 NKJV But one of His disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, who would betray Him, said, (5) "Why was this fragrant oil not sold for three hundred denarii and given to the poor?" (6) This he said, not that he cared for the poor, but because he was a thief, and had the money box; and he used to take what was put in it.

 

[Christ4Ever]

What made Jesus the Messiah, his words or his works?

John 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
John 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father [is] in me, and I in him.

 

[JonahofAkron]

Can you provide scripture for this?

Yeah, one can view Judas that way if they choose, Jari, but I see a guy that followed Jesus for three years, every day. When others stopped following Jesus, Judas stayed. Jesus always said things that offended people. Jesus was quick to correct and rebuke them for things, so I'm sure that following him wasn't always the most pleasant thing in the world to do. But, Judas did it right up to the end. Then—

Matthew 27:1 When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death:

Matthew 27:2 And when they had bound him, they led him away, and delivered him to Pontius Pilate the governor.

Matthew 27:3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

Matthew 27:4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.

Matthew 27:5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.

—this doesn't really strike me as the cold-hearted, spawn-of-Satan kind of person that is usually described when people talk of Judas. He felt badly, and knew that Jesus was innocent. Doesn't sound like someone that was completely heartless, does it?

It took faith for the disciples to have used the powers that Jesus gave them, and if Judas ever actually healed or cast out demons, then he also must have had the faith to do so.

The first chapter of Acts tells us that Judas' office, his bishoprick, had to be filled by another. Judas had been elected by God to have a part with the other eleven apostles, but he didn't hold on to it. I see Judas as fallen away, Jari, and you see him as having not been able to attain salvation.

MrsMree, how many people do you know of that prophesy about things that come to pass? Or people that truly perform miracles that cannot be explained any other way?

I believe that the people being referred to in Matthew 7:21-23 are either people that had believed but returned to living in the flesh ( giving up their walk with God ), or people that were never really true believers to begin with but had possibly even convinced themselves that they were performing some of these things for and through the Lord. MrsMree, do you believe that people can feign having some of the gifts of the Holy Ghost?

Do you think that there are any people in the world who believe that they are saved, but are not? I think that most of us would answer "yes" to this question. They are 100% sure that they are saved though, right? We're all sure that we are saved, and yet we can't agree on anything. I'm not great at math, but I'm sure that it is safe to say that we cannot all be right, but it is possible that we could all be wrong.

The verses that follow those in question to keep things in context:

Matthew 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Matthew 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

Matthew 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

Matthew 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Here are some more verses:

Matthew 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

Matthew 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:

Matthew 12:26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? Does Satan cast out Satan? Judging by what was said here, I would say no.

Matthew 12:27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.

Matthew 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

Matthew 12:29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

Matthew 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad. Taking this verse in context ( feel free to read the verses that follow this one for yourself ) I would say that an unbeliever is not with Jesus and therefore against him. This unbeliever will also be one that does not gather and therefore scattereth abroad. How could someone like this ever help out anyone by healing or casting out demons or prophesying, etc ...?

And keep in mind, MrsMree, that it doesn't say that these people did prophesy or cast out demons, it says that many will say that they did these things. Today, there are a lot of people that claim to speak in tongues, and it is a very difficult gift to prove. I think that that is the reason that the Bible tells us that tongues is a gift for the unbeliever and not the believer. There are many churches where tongues is the only gift that anyone claims to have and I have to admit, I do find that a little suspicious. There are many well-known evangelists that claim the gifts of healing but the groups that follow them around trying to verify just one of those reported miracles always claim that there was nothing to it.

I believe that if someone is claiming that they have some gift from God, they better have that gift or they are condemning themselves.

I Thessalonians 1:5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

Galatians 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you in the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? How did the people from Matthew 7:21-23 perform the things that they said they performed, by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Or, is there another option that Paul forgot to mention?

Galatians 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

Galatians 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Galatians 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Galatians 3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Someone that has the faith to perform a miracle in Jesus' name cannot possibly be an unbeliever at the time of that miracle.

Give me someone, besides Judas, from scripture that prophesied or cast out devils in Jesus' name that, we can tell from scripture, was also an unbeliever.

What made Jesus the Messiah, his words or his works? There were people that believed in Jesus because of the things that he did. They seemed to know that evil people, or unbelievers, couldn't just do these things. Saying that unbelievers can perform these deeds causes problems with scripture.

I rambled again, MrsMree, sorry. Hopefully I answered your questions. If not, show me what I missed.

Excellent post!!!

 

[jiggyfly]

John 3:16 - What does it mean?

Honestly, by reading some of your posts concerning America in another thread, obviously you really don't seem to understand it.

Start with the first prepositional phrase of verse 16.
"For God so loved the world".

Is it inclusive or exclusive?