John 3:16 - What does it mean?

[RJ]

Can you provide scripture for this?

Yeah, one can view Judas that way if they choose, Jari, but I see a guy that followed Jesus for three years, every day. When others stopped following Jesus, Judas stayed. Jesus always said things that offended people. Jesus was quick to correct and rebuke them for things, so I'm sure that following him wasn't always the most pleasant thing in the world to do. But, Judas did it right up to the end. Then—

Matthew 27:1 When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death:

Matthew 27:2 And when they had bound him, they led him away, and delivered him to Pontius Pilate the governor.

Matthew 27:3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

Matthew 27:4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.

Matthew 27:5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.

—this doesn't really strike me as the cold-hearted, spawn-of-Satan kind of person that is usually described when people talk of Judas. He felt badly, and knew that Jesus was innocent. Doesn't sound like someone that was completely heartless, does it?

It took faith for the disciples to have used the powers that Jesus gave them, and if Judas ever actually healed or cast out demons, then he also must have had the faith to do so.

The first chapter of Acts tells us that Judas' office, his bishoprick, had to be filled by another. Judas had been elected by God to have a part with the other eleven apostles, but he didn't hold on to it. I see Judas as fallen away, Jari, and you see him as having not been able to attain salvation.

MrsMree, how many people do you know of that prophesy about things that come to pass? Or people that truly perform miracles that cannot be explained any other way?

I believe that the people being referred to in Matthew 7:21-23 are either people that had believed but returned to living in the flesh ( giving up their walk with God ), or people that were never really true believers to begin with but had possibly even convinced themselves that they were performing some of these things for and through the Lord. MrsMree, do you believe that people can feign having some of the gifts of the Holy Ghost?

Do you think that there are any people in the world who believe that they are saved, but are not? I think that most of us would answer "yes" to this question. They are 100% sure that they are saved though, right? We're all sure that we are saved, and yet we can't agree on anything. I'm not great at math, but I'm sure that it is safe to say that we cannot all be right, but it is possible that we could all be wrong.

The verses that follow those in question to keep things in context:

Matthew 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Matthew 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

Matthew 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

Matthew 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Here are some more verses:

Matthew 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

Matthew 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:

Matthew 12:26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? Does Satan cast out Satan? Judging by what was said here, I would say no.

Matthew 12:27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.

Matthew 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

Matthew 12:29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

Matthew 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad. Taking this verse in context ( feel free to read the verses that follow this one for yourself ) I would say that an unbeliever is not with Jesus and therefore against him. This unbeliever will also be one that does not gather and therefore scattereth abroad. How could someone like this ever help out anyone by healing or casting out demons or prophesying, etc ...?

And keep in mind, MrsMree, that it doesn't say that these people did prophesy or cast out demons, it says that many will say that they did these things. Today, there are a lot of people that claim to speak in tongues, and it is a very difficult gift to prove. I think that that is the reason that the Bible tells us that tongues is a gift for the unbeliever and not the believer. There are many churches where tongues is the only gift that anyone claims to have and I have to admit, I do find that a little suspicious. There are many well-known evangelists that claim the gifts of healing but the groups that follow them around trying to verify just one of those reported miracles always claim that there was nothing to it.

I believe that if someone is claiming that they have some gift from God, they better have that gift or they are condemning themselves.

I Thessalonians 1:5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

Galatians 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you in the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? How did the people from Matthew 7:21-23 perform the things that they said they performed, by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Or, is there another option that Paul forgot to mention?

Galatians 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

Galatians 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Galatians 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Galatians 3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Someone that has the faith to perform a miracle in Jesus' name cannot possibly be an unbeliever at the time of that miracle.

Give me someone, besides Judas, from scripture that prophesied or cast out devils in Jesus' name that, we can tell from scripture, was also an unbeliever.

What made Jesus the Messiah, his words or his works? There were people that believed in Jesus because of the things that he did. They seemed to know that evil people, or unbelievers, couldn't just do these things. Saying that unbelievers can perform these deeds causes problems with scripture.

I rambled again, MrsMree, sorry. Hopefully I answered your questions. If not, show me what I missed.

It took faith for the disciples to have used the powers that Jesus gave them, and if Judas ever actually healed or cast out demons, then he also must have had the faith to do so.

That's a pretty big if don't you think?

Can you provide scripture that supports Judas having healed or cast out demons?

 

[Stickz]

RJ

I do not see where scripture specifically states where Judas was casting out demons and prophesying, but I think that your question would be better posed to the person who brought it up. Perhaps, you need to re-read the thread: You would see why I used the word 'if' in my post.

Jari: The thing is stickz that Judas was with them casting out demons and serving Lord. This was also time when none of the disciples had been born again. And what Judas did after that was that he betrayed Jesus. Even after all that.
Because He didnt have the saving faith to become child of God. He only believed for while it was worth following Jesus and I wonder what was his motivation for this to begin with. He even stole money from their treasury.

Obviously he didnt believe in Jesus for his salvation after all. Otherwise he wouldnt have betrayed Jesus if he had believed that he was the messiah.

I'll let Jari answer your question, RJ.

 

[RJ]

RJ

I do not see where scripture specifically states where Judas was casting out demons and prophesying, but I think that your question would be better posed to the person who brought it up. Perhaps, you need to re-read the thread: You would see why I used the word 'if' in my post.



I'll let Jari answer your question, RJ.

I am sorry, my question was adressed to you.

 

[Stickz]

RJ

Perhaps, I do not understand the question then. Would you care to ask your question again for me, to make sure that I understand what information it is that you are wanting from me?

 

[jari]

It is possible to believe and be evil (Acts 15:5). Judas was never repentant of his sin. We must remember that all of Jesus' disciples were evil (Matt 7:11) but only one was a devil (Jn 6:70). Judas had faith, he followed a homeless man who claimed to be the son of God around for 3 years. Judas did not have saving faith, true. He chose to betray Jesus and leave him...he became an apostate (Heb 6:4-6). This is possible for any Christian to do.

All of you provide very stimulating conversation that requires me to meditate on what God has said and I love you for it. Have a wonderful evening.

Gary

Heb 6:4-6 is not about born again actually. What they do is that they recrucify christ for them self because they didnt believe in one time sacrafice that Jesus made. Born again person does not do that. As he believes in Jesus sacrafice...

Paul was just explaining in hebrews how Jesus sacrafice is one time for all sins. But they fall away and did contrary to what Paul teached.

1Jn 2:19-20 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. (20) But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

 

[Stickz]

agua: Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px inset;" class="alt2"> Originally Posted by jari
...........
He even stole money from their treasury.
.........
</td></tr></tbody></table>
Joh 12:4-6 NKJV But one of His disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, who would betray Him, said, (5) "Why was this fragrant oil not sold for three hundred denarii and given to the poor?" (6) This he said, not that he cared for the poor, but because he was a thief, and had the money box; and he used to take what was put in it.

Thanks, agua, I see where some translations word it this way.

 

[RJ]

RJ

Perhaps, I do not understand the question then. Would you care to ask your question again for me, to make sure that I understand what information it is that you are wanting from me?

I would like to see scripture that supports your 2 points below:

• But, Judas did it right up to the end
• I see Judas as falling away.

I see support for John 12:4-6.

 

[jari]

Can you provide scripture for this?

Yeah, one can view Judas that way if they choose, Jari, but I see a guy that followed Jesus for three years, every day. When others stopped following Jesus, Judas stayed. Jesus always said things that offended people. Jesus was quick to correct and rebuke them for things, so I'm sure that following him wasn't always the most pleasant thing in the world to do. But, Judas did it right up to the end. Then—

Matthew 27:1 When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death:

Matthew 27:2 And when they had bound him, they led him away, and delivered him to Pontius Pilate the governor.

Matthew 27:3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

Matthew 27:4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.

Matthew 27:5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.

—this doesn't really strike me as the cold-hearted, spawn-of-Satan kind of person that is usually described when people talk of Judas. He felt badly, and knew that Jesus was innocent. Doesn't sound like someone that was completely heartless, does it?

It took faith for the disciples to have used the powers that Jesus gave them, and if Judas ever actually healed or cast out demons, then he also must have had the faith to do so.

The first chapter of Acts tells us that Judas' office, his bishoprick, had to be filled by another. Judas had been elected by God to have a part with the other eleven apostles, but he didn't hold on to it. I see Judas as fallen away, Jari, and you see him as having not been able to attain salvation.

[/COLOR]

God wants every person to be saved , thats not the issue. The problem was infact that Judas betrayed Jesus.
He did it for some money because he probably didnt believe Jesus was really the messiah.

so he decided to stop following Jesus and make some profit.

But no where it says Judas believed in Jesus for who He is.

And if some one doesn't believe in Jesus (as savior, messiah) to be saved that's a problem.

 

[RJ]

Thanks, agua, I see where some translations word it this way.

Do you happen to have some other translations that do not word it this way?

 

[Stickz]

RJ

What happened to you wanting scripture to support Judas casting out demons and prophesying?

Do you really need scripture to support that Judas followed Jesus right up to the end, RJ?

Read either one of the four gospels and you'll see that when Jesus chose ( elected ) his twelve, Judas was one of them. Judas was there with them all, right up until he betrayed Jesus; Jesus was arrested, Judas killed himself, and Jesus was crucified( the end ).

And I think that that also explains how I see Judas as falling away. But, I'll continue a little more: the Bible says that Judas "betrayed" Jesus. I just want to throw the definition to the word 'betray' in here:

1. to deliver or expose to an enemy by treachery or disloyalty: Benedict Arnold betrayed his country.

2. to be unfaithful in guarding, maintaining, or fulfilling: to betray a trust.

3. to disappoint the hopes or expectations of; be disloyal to: to betray one's friends.

4. to reveal or disclose in violation of confidence: to betray a secret.

5. to reveal unconsciously ( something one would preferably conceal ): Her nervousness betrays her insecurity.

6. to show or exhibit; reveal; disclose: an unfeeling remark that betrays his lack of concern.

7. to deceive, misguide, or corrupt: a young lawyer betrayed by political ambitions into irreparable folly.

8. to seduce and desert.

Now, I find it important to understand that for someone ( or something in some cases ) to be "betrayed" there must have initially been a certain relationship between them to begin with. It was probably not perfect, of course, otherwise the betrayal would not have occurred, but there is still something there.

Matthew 27:3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

Matthew 27:4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.

Matthew 27:5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.

This is not the reaction of someone who never cared for Jesus at any given time as some teach. And if Judas didn't believe that Jesus was the Messiah, killing himself, out of guilt, seems unlikely to me. Judas had to have understood something about Jesus to have reached the point of suicide. And, Judas killed himself even before Jesus' resurrection and ascension which proved beyond any shadow of a doubt that He was the Messiah. What could have caused such an "evil man" to have first, given back the money, but then to have proceeded to take his own life? Because he had betrayed someone whom he didn't really like anyway, and didn't believe that He was anything special? Sorry, not buying it.

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. Can one lose something that they didn't have to begin with?

I wish that I were better at communicating my thoughts, but hopefully everything came through clear enough. This is the way that I see things, and will continue to see them until someone says something that makes even more sense to me.

RJ:
Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px inset;" class="alt2"> Originally Posted by Stickz
Thanks, agua, I see where some translations word it this way.
</td></tr></tbody></table>
Do you happen to have some other translations that do not word it this way?

John 12:6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein. ( KJV )

John 12:6 Nowe he said this, not that he cared for the poore, but because hee was a theefe, and had the bagge, and bare that which was giuen. ( Geneva )

John 12:6 But he said this, not that he cared for the poor, but because he was a thief and had the bag, and carried what was put into it . ( Darby )

John 12:6 Now he said this, not because he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and having the purse, carried the things that were put therein. ( Douay-Rheims )

John 12:6 This sayde he not that he cared for the pooer: but because he was a thefe and kept the bagge and bare that which was geven. ( Tyndale )

John 12:6 But he seide this thing, not for it perteynede to hym of nedi men, but for he was a theef, and he hadde the pursis, and bar tho thingis that weren sent. ( Wycliffe )

John 12:6 But this he said, not because he cared for the poor, but because he was a thief, and having the bag he carried what was thrown in. ( H.T. Anderson's translation of the Codex Sinaiticus )

 

[RJ]

RJ

What happened to you wanting scripture to support Judas casting out demons and prophesying?

Do you really need scripture to support that Judas followed Jesus right up to the end, RJ?

Read either one of the four gospels and you'll see that when Jesus chose ( elected ) his twelve, Judas was one of them. Judas was there with them all, right up until he betrayed Jesus; Jesus was arrested, Judas killed himself, and Jesus was crucified( the end ).

And I think that that also explains how I see Judas as falling away. But, I'll continue a little more: the Bible says that Judas "betrayed" Jesus. I just want to throw the definition to the word 'betray' in here:

1. to deliver or expose to an enemy by treachery or disloyalty: Benedict Arnold betrayed his country.

2. to be unfaithful in guarding, maintaining, or fulfilling: to betray a trust.

3. to disappoint the hopes or expectations of; be disloyal to: to betray one's friends.

4. to reveal or disclose in violation of confidence: to betray a secret.

5. to reveal unconsciously ( something one would preferably conceal ): Her nervousness betrays her insecurity.

6. to show or exhibit; reveal; disclose: an unfeeling remark that betrays his lack of concern.

7. to deceive, misguide, or corrupt: a young lawyer betrayed by political ambitions into irreparable folly.

8. to seduce and desert.

Now, I find it important to understand that for someone ( or something in some cases ) to be "betrayed" there must have initially been a certain relationship between them to begin with. It was probably not perfect, of course, otherwise the betrayal would not have occurred, but there is still something there.

Matthew 27:3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

Matthew 27:4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.

Matthew 27:5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.

This is not the reaction of someone who never cared for Jesus at any given time as some teach. And if Judas didn't believe that Jesus was the Messiah, killing himself, out of guilt, seems unlikely to me. Judas had to have understood something about Jesus to have reached the point of suicide. And, Judas killed himself even before Jesus' resurrection and ascension which proved beyond any shadow of a doubt that He was the Messiah. What could have caused such an "evil man" to have first, given back the money, but then to have proceeded to take his own life? Because he had betrayed someone whom he didn't really like anyway, and didn't believe that He was anything special? Sorry, not buying it.

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. Can one lose something that they didn't have to begin with?

I wish that I were better at communicating my thoughts, but hopefully everything came through clear enough. This is the way that I see things, and will continue to see them until someone says something that makes even more sense to me.

John 12:6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein. ( KJV )

John 12:6 Nowe he said this, not that he cared for the poore, but because hee was a theefe, and had the bagge, and bare that which was giuen. ( Geneva )

John 12:6 But he said this, not that he cared for the poor, but because he was a thief and had the bag, and carried what was put into it . ( Darby )

John 12:6 Now he said this, not because he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and having the purse, carried the things that were put therein. ( Douay-Rheims )

John 12:6 This sayde he not that he cared for the pooer: but because he was a thefe and kept the bagge and bare that which was geven. ( Tyndale )

John 12:6 But he seide this thing, not for it perteynede to hym of nedi men, but for he was a theef, and he hadde the pursis, and bar tho thingis that weren sent. ( Wycliffe )

John 12:6 But this he said, not because he cared for the poor, but because he was a thief, and having the bag he carried what was thrown in. ( H.T. Anderson's translation of the Codex Sinaiticus )

Yes I do need scripture. Whether you agree or not, go read the forum rules....your are required to post scripture that supports your point.

In this case your point is:
What happened to you wanting scripture to support Judas casting out demons and prophesying?

Do you really need scripture to support that Judas followed Jesus right up to the end, RJ?

I support my point and others also with the following verse:
I see support for John 12:4-6. <!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

You have done everything but provide scripture for your above points, please follow forum rules and provide scripture....it is that simple Stickz!

 

[agua]

John 12:6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein. ( KJV )

John 12:6 Nowe he said this, not that he cared for the poore, but because hee was a theefe, and had the bagge, and bare that which was giuen. ( Geneva )

John 12:6 But he said this, not that he cared for the poor, but because he was a thief and had the bag, and carried what was put into it . ( Darby )

John 12:6 Now he said this, not because he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and having the purse, carried the things that were put therein. ( Douay-Rheims )

John 12:6 This sayde he not that he cared for the pooer: but because he was a thefe and kept the bagge and bare that which was geven. ( Tyndale )

John 12:6 But he seide this thing, not for it perteynede to hym of nedi men, but for he was a theef, and he hadde the pursis, and bar tho thingis that weren sent. ( Wycliffe )

John 12:6 But this he said, not because he cared for the poor, but because he was a thief, and having the bag he carried what was thrown in. ( H.T. Anderson's translation of the Codex Sinaiticus )

All of these translations say Judas was a thief. Judas had no care for the poor who he claimed the money from selling the fragrant oil was for. The connection that he stole from the treasury is obvious.


Joh 12:5-6 NKJV "Why was this fragrant oil not sold for three hundred denarii and given to the poor?" (6) This he said, not that he cared for the poor, but because he was a thief, and had the money box; and he used to take what was put in it.


Judas was never a true believer imo.


Joh 6:69-71 NKJV Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." (70) Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?" (71) He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.


Jesus chose him knowing his wrong heart and Judas followed his stomach fulfilling prophecy concerning people like himself.


Act 1:16-17 NKJV "Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus; (17) for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry."


In many ways Judas can be likened to a false prophet. imo

 

[jiggyfly]

All of these translations say Judas was a thief. Judas had no care for the poor who he claimed the money from selling the fragrant oil was for. The connection that he stole from the treasury is obvious.


Joh 12:5-6 NKJV "Why was this fragrant oil not sold for three hundred denarii and given to the poor?" (6) This he said, not that he cared for the poor, but because he was a thief, and had the money box; and he used to take what was put in it.


Judas was never a true believer imo.


Joh 6:69-71 NKJV Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." (70) Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?" (71) He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.


Jesus chose him knowing his wrong heart and Judas followed his stomach fulfilling prophecy concerning people like himself.


Act 1:16-17 NKJV "Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus; (17) for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry."


In many ways Judas can be likened to a false prophet. imo

I would say Judas was more like the Pharaoh that enslaved Israel.
Both were used in a negative way to accomplish God's plan.
Judas fulfilled prophecy by betraying Christ as part of God's plan of redeeming mankind.

 

[Stickz]

RJ

I'm pretty sure that there is no forum rule about someone having to show scripture for what someone else said, but I will show support for the statement that Jari made about Judas casting out demons; well, this is what I think he would have shown had you asked him to support his own statements ( if not, maybe he will correct me ):

Matthew 10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

Matthew 10:2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;

Matthew 10:3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;

Matthew 10:4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.

Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

Matthew 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matthew 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

Now, if you'll notice, there is no specific place where it says that Judas did these things but it could be said that it is implied being as he was considered to be one of the twelve. And the twelve were sent out with the power to do these things ...?

As for the rest of your post, I have followed forum rules, RJ, it isn't my problem that you are not reading my posts thoroughly enough to see that all of the information is there.

agua

First of all, I posted all of the translations of that verse because of what RJ had posted about it. Secondly, I have never made the connection that he stole from the treasury because I read mostly from one of those versions that doesn't specifically say that he took from it; it only says that he carried the bag.

agua: Judas was never a true believer imo.

Okay.

agua: Joh 6:69-71 NKJV Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." (70) Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?" (71) He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.

The word 'choose' is very similar to the word 'elect' which means that Judas had been elected.

agua: Jesus chose him knowing his wrong heart and Judas followed his stomach fulfilling prophecy concerning people like himself.

I believe that all this is showing is that sometimes people are placed in the churches by God to fulfill His purposes, and sometimes those people turn out to be and do bad things. Aren't all of us chosen by God to fulfill His purpose? I wonder how many of us are confused about what are purpose is exactly? I don't believe that it is possible that Judas was bad through and through, or any worse of a person than the rest of us.

agua: Act 1:16-17 NKJV "Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus; (17) for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry."


In many ways Judas can be likened to a false prophet. imo

What was it that it says Judas had obtained? A part in this ministry? You say that he was never one of them but scripture seems to say that he was. Personally, I find Judas to be a victim of what is spoken of in Hebrews 6, but will not go into it here because this is supposed to be a thread on John 3:16, and we are already off topic enough.

Hindsight. In a thousand years, perhaps, even some of the people in this forum will be able to be likened to a false prophet too, but most probably see that as an impossibility.

 

[RJ]

RJ

I'm pretty sure that there is no forum rule about someone having to show scripture for what someone else said, but I will show support for the statement that Jari made about Judas casting out demons; well, this is what I think he would have shown had you asked him to support his own statements ( if not, maybe he will correct me ):

Matthew 10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

Matthew 10:2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;

Matthew 10:3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;

Matthew 10:4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.

Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

Matthew 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matthew 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

Now, if you'll notice, there is no specific place where it says that Judas did these things but it could be said that it is implied being as he was considered to be one of the twelve. And the twelve were sent out with the power to do these things ...?

As for the rest of your post, I have followed forum rules, RJ, it isn't my problem that you are not reading my posts thoroughly enough to see that all of the information is there.

agua

First of all, I posted all of the translations of that verse because of what RJ had posted about it. Secondly, I have never made the connection that he stole from the treasury because I read mostly from one of those versions that doesn't specifically say that he took from it; it only says that he carried the bag.



Okay.



The word 'choose' is very similar to the word 'elect' which means that Judas had been elected.



I believe that all this is showing is that sometimes people are placed in the churches by God to fulfill His purposes, and sometimes those people turn out to be and do bad things. Aren't all of us chosen by God to fulfill His purpose? I wonder how many of us are confused about what are purpose is exactly? I don't believe that it is possible that Judas was bad through and through, or any worse of a person than the rest of us.




What was it that it says Judas had obtained? A part in this ministry? You say that he was never one of them but scripture seems to say that he was. Personally, I find Judas to be a victim of what is spoken of in Hebrews 6, but will not go into it here because this is supposed to be a thread on John 3:16, and we are already off topic enough.

Hindsight. In a thousand years, perhaps, even some of the people in this forum will be able to be likened to a false prophet too, but most probably see that as an impossibility.

That's right Stickz, you made my point for me, thank you!

You can only imply that Judas recieved what Jesus gave and indeed healed the sick and cast out demons.

The scripture that I and others offered you has no assumed implication it is fact. John 12:4-6
Judas was a Thief and evil.

 

[gdemoss]

Heb 6:4-6 is not about born again actually. What they do is that they recrucify christ for them self because they didnt believe in one time sacrafice that Jesus made. Born again person does not do that. As he believes in Jesus sacrafice...

Paul was just explaining in hebrews how Jesus sacrafice is one time for all sins. But they fall away and did contrary to what Paul teached.

1Jn 2:19-20 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. (20) But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

I have spoken with a few people who believe as you do and I simply cannot see why you call them not born again. Jari, what do you think the bibles definition of born again is? It seems to me that you would define it solely as one who believes that Jesus is the sacrifice for sin. Correct me if I have it wrong.

This person spoke of in Hebrews was stated to have been (Heb 6:5):

• were once enlightened (spiritually aware)
• have tasted of the heavenly gift (2 gifts mentioned in scripture, salvation Eph 2:8, Holy Spirit Acts 2:38. This would probably be speaking of salvation as the next speaks separately of the Holy Spirit)
• were made partakers of the Holy Ghost (Indwelling of God within them)
• have tasted the good word of God (born again 1 Pe 1:23)
• and the powers of the world to come (I am not sure about this one)

So I can do all of this without being born again?

If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance (Heb 6:6);

They were once truly repentant according to the verse. It is called apostasy which means they once believed but have lost their faith and left. You can't come back because you can only crucify Jesus to yourself once.

But of course you can't acknowledge the truth of this scripture and be OSAS. One would have to describe it away.

Have a wonderful night.

Gary

 

[RJ]

I have spoken with a few people who believe as you do and I simply cannot see why you call them not born again. Jari, what do you think the bibles definition of born again is? It seems to me that you would define it solely as one who believes that Jesus is the sacrifice for sin. Correct me if I have it wrong.


This person spoke of in Hebrews was stated to have been (Heb 6:5):

• were once enlightened (spiritually aware)
• have tasted of the heavenly gift (2 gifts mentioned in scripture, salvation Eph 2:8, Holy Spirit Acts 2:38. This would probably be speaking of salvation as the next speaks separately of the Holy Spirit)
• were made partakers of the Holy Ghost (Indwelling of God within them)
• have tasted the good word of God (born again 1 Pe 1:23)
• and the powers of the world to come (I am not sure about this one)

So I can do all of this without being born again?

If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance (Heb 6:6);

They were once truly repentant according to the verse. It is called apostasy which means they once believed but have lost their faith and left. You can't come back because you can only crucify Jesus to yourself once.

But of course you can't acknowledge the truth of this scripture and be OSAS. One would have to describe it away.

Have a wonderful night.

Gary

<TABLE style="WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: sans-serif; MARGIN-LEFT: auto; FONT-SIZE: 100%; MARGIN-RIGHT: auto" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top></TD><TD style="WIDTH: 100%" class=t_text vAlign=top>For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,</TD></TR><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>5</TD><TD style="WIDTH: 100%" class=t_text vAlign=top>And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,</TD></TR><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>6</TD><TD style="WIDTH: 100%" class=t_text vAlign=top>If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Hebrews 6 :4-6</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

I truly believe that is was Paul that wrote Hebrews and I truly think he meant that it was impossible to fall away once saved.

In verse 6 he is saying that if a person could fall away and for them to be brought into repentance again and re-newd would require Jesus to be be crucified all over again and to his open to shame again,which of course is not going to happen again.

He died once and for all and when you are born again, scriptures says nothing about being un-born.

 

[gdemoss]

We should always remember to look at the entire context in which something is said in scripture.

Heb 6:7-9 complete the thought. We are persuaded that this falling away will not happen to you and you will be saved. Unlike those who fall away and are damned to the lake of fire.

You don't give an example of something that is impossible then say it ends in damnation if it is actually impossible to do.

Once again, You cannot accept this truth if you are OSAS as you must make it mean something else or it destroys your doctrine. Just like Jesus couldn't really be saying that if you don't forgive everyone then the father won't forgive you. It must be changed...scripture must be added to in order to accommodate the false doctrine that is taught.

May God open the eyes of the blind,

Gary

 

[RJ]

We should always remember to look at the entire context in which something is said in scripture.

Heb 6:7-9 complete the thought. We are persuaded that this falling away will not happen to you and you will be saved. Unlike those who fall away and are damned to the lake of fire.

You don't give an example of something that is impossible then say it ends in damnation if it is actually impossible to do.

Once again, You cannot accept this truth if you are OSAS as you must make it mean something else or it destroys your doctrine. Just like Jesus couldn't really be saying that if you don't forgive everyone then the father won't forgive you. It must be changed...scripture must be added to in order to accommodate the false doctrine that is taught.

May God open the eyes of the blind,

Gary

You say Heb 6:7-9 says the following ( these are your words):
Heb 6:7-9 complete the thought. We are persuaded that this falling away will not happen to you and you will be saved. Unlike those who fall away and are damned to the lake of fire

For the life of me, teacher, I do not see anywhere in these verses, that it talks about "falling away" or "those who fall away"? Now, what did you say about changing verse to suit your own purpose?!

<SUP>7</SUP> Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. <SUP id=en-NIV1984-30037 class=versenum>8</SUP> But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.
<SUP id=en-NIV1984-30038 class=versenum>9</SUP> Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation.
Hebrews 6:7-9
I see no where in these verses that it refers to and act of falling away. It is simply stating the difference between believers and non-believers.

No, in fact I believe Hebrews 6 supports OSAS.

You can't fall away once saved.
Also, you can't fall away from a place you have never truely been, i.e., saved or, you can't fall away if you were not saved in the first place.

So, again, my dear teacher, we will just have to agree to disagree. But, then, wasn't it you who said they couldn't agree to disagree?...Well, maybe that wasn't you?

You can refer me to being blind all you want and insinuating that it is just you that knows the full counsel of God and only you that lives in the light. Regardless, you have your interpretation and I have mine.

I will leave you and all of your self imposed wisdom with this question:

If you gdemoss, believe that as promised by God, when you are saved or "Born Again" and God lives in you:

could you please point out the scripture that says God will leave you and you become unsaved?

 

[jari]

I have spoken with a few people who believe as you do and I simply cannot see why you call them not born again. Jari, what do you think the bibles definition of born again is? It seems to me that you would define it solely as one who believes that Jesus is the sacrifice for sin. Correct me if I have it wrong.

This person spoke of in Hebrews was stated to have been (Heb 6:5):

• were once enlightened (spiritually aware)
• have tasted of the heavenly gift (2 gifts mentioned in scripture, salvation Eph 2:8, Holy Spirit Acts 2:38. This would probably be speaking of salvation as the next speaks separately of the Holy Spirit)
• were made partakers of the Holy Ghost (Indwelling of God within them)
• have tasted the good word of God (born again 1 Pe 1:23)
• and the powers of the world to come (I am not sure about this one)

So I can do all of this without being born again?

That's just the thing right there Gary, they have merely tasted. They had come close as experiencing the holy spirit. Yet they recrucify Christ for them self.

they seem to go back to trying to earn all that they have tasted instead of believing in one time sacrafice and that it's of grace they got so close at the first place.

Also it doesnt say they leave "believing" now they continue religiosity by recrucifying christ for the self because they think this thats the way....
it doesnt actually say they were apostate. or that they were not interested anymore. They simply fall away from what they tasted.

Also their action of recrucifying christ puts him to open shame. why? its something they publically do.

the definition of the words "put him to an open shame." :
From G3844 and G1165; to show alongside (the public), that is, expose to infamy: - make a public example, put to an open shame.


And it doest say they have indwell of HS. they became partakers but it doesnt imply indwell. As holy spirit can be experienced in many ways.
Even in Old testament king Saul and his men were overcome by holy spirit. that doesnt mean they got holy spirit permanetely but they just experienced it.