Defining Sin - An Open Study

[agua]

Jesus said he was a liar from the beginning.

My understanding of the "beginning" here is the Genesis account culminating in the creation of man.

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

It seems the angels witnessed this creation period.

Job 38:4-7 NKJV "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding. (5) Who determined its measurements? Surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? (6) To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone, (7) When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?


So the "beginning" in reference to satan's deception is referring to his dealings with earth/man.

What do you think?

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Part 2 responce to gdemoss

Before Adam ate from the tree there was no sin in the world. No mark had been missed.

Ok,we have a man who doesn't know what good is,he also doesnt know what evil is.He is what we call innocent like a child who does not yet know the difference.
If God said don't eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
because it will bring death then it is the knowledge itself that ushered in death and sin.
God was not threatening the man he was sternly warning him of a dangerous consuming something a deviation in his way of thinking and speaking.Did the sin come from the disobedience or from the knowledge.I feel that the fact that the tree contained the knowledge of evil is significant.

I am unaware of words here that are solely Archery terms.

If you mean that these words can be used in other ways then I suppose you have a point.I suppose thats why we are told to study to show thyself approved.
Again,I am not here to teach a doctrine but to learn(by questions) so
if you see error in this assumption please enlighten me.
I personally feel there is sufficient connection to investigate the possibilities.

Without understanding where Gods words were spoken of in this light I lose the ability to make these connections.

If you can accept that arrows are sometimes used to describe words then perhaps it might be worth investigating.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

All(notice I didn't say "all things") was made by his word going forth and accomplishing it's task and not returning to him void.
Man was given the task of naming or assigning words to animals.

Wasn't evil already in the garden before they had knowledge? Satan.

If you assume the serpent is a personality named Satan.The serpent could be one of those things that is personified to make it easier to understand.The word serpent sounds like it would not shoot very straight.A serpent can mean wavering,cyclical or changing.
We were given power to tread on serpents(waves of doctrine?)

Evil was certainly in the garden in the form of a tree.
I said Adam could not sin because he did not know what wrong was.
It most likely would not occur to him to harm or do any wrong,he could only be what he was created to be.He had the power to name the animals so he worked with his words.

The Mark. This one I believe I understand. Jesus Christ is the mark. The last Adam.

I refer back to JonahofAkrons post.

What mark are we missing? Torah comes from the root word Yarah and is another archer's term. It literally means 'to shoot an arrow'. It denotes the very trajectory of the arrow as it travels to the bullseye.

I think Jesus would be Yarah,the way or path.
Jesus called himself the way.He was an arrow that went forth on a true and perfect path to accomplish the will of his Father.
Adam must have been hitting the mark before he had the knowledge of good and evil.Because missing the mark did not come until he partook of that deadly tree.

Does the bible say what Gods motive was? I haven't found it.

I was not addressing God's motives.
As a Father I know innocence is lovely.It seems to me that they were innocent and perfect and hitting the mark.Only one thing could go wrong as far as I see.

God wanted to protect the mans innocence that's why he was commanded not to partake of the knowledge of good and evil.

I wanted to protect my kids innocence but I did tell them not to play with matches.I did not however explain to them all the horrors of burning to death.
Are you suggesting God wanted them to know they were naked and die?

1. Jesus
2. the image of the invisible God.
3. First born of every creature
   1. For by him are all created,
      • that are in heaven,
      • and that are in earth,
      • visible and invisible,
        1. whether thrones,
        2. or dominions,
        3. or principalities,
        4. or powers:
4. And he is before all ,
5. and by him all consist
6. And he is the head of the body,
   • the church:

I agree up to this point,I don't feel that dropping the word things changes the meaning.God created all period.
In him we live and move and have our being.
All Things are pure to the pure and to the impure nothing is pure.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Job 38:4-7 NKJV "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding. (5) Who determined its measurements? Surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? (6) To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone, (7) When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Does this verse tell us that Satan is or was a son of God or does it tell us he came among the sons of God also.
I don't see that as proof that satan is a son of God so I can't assume Job is referring to him.I don't believe he is the morning star or Lucifer either.There is really no solid evidence that I've seen to make me sure the serpent in the garden is Satan.
The Hebrew word "nachash" has been translated serpent(Strong's 5175) but nachash also can mean to practice divination, observe signs (Strong's 5172). It could speak of using formulas,observing cycles or wavering."She blinded me with science",so to speak.

 

[RJ]

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Does this verse tell us that Satan is or was a son of God or does it tell us he came among the sons of God also.
I don't see that as proof that satan is a son of God so I can't assume Job is referring to him.I don't believe he is the morning star or Lucifer either.There is really no solid evidence that I've seen to make me sure the serpent in the garden is Satan.
The Hebrew word "nachash" has been translated serpent(Strong's 5175) but nachash also can mean to practice divination, observe signs (Strong's 5172). It could speak of using formulas,observing cycles or wavering."She blinded me with science",so to speak.

Hmmmmmm!

"12 How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart:
'I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.'” Isaiah 14:12-14

Also, no offense but your name, This Cross Hurts, seems to show a lack a respect to me.

May I ask: Are you a Christian and have Christ living in you?

 

[Eccl12v13]

As far as eating words and not fruit from a tree you lost me there. Are you saying this is supposed to be understood as figurative?

Yes! Is it possible for you to eat from a tree to give you understanding?

Jesus told His followers to eat His flesh and drink His blood....but did they? Is this what Jesus really meant?

Let's read what God asked Adam.....

Gen.3
[11] And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

Can a tree talk?

Now let's read what God calls Satan.....

Rev.12
[9] And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Rev.20
[2] And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Satan is refered to as a snake and a dragon.

There were ONLY (2) spirit beings in the garden when Adam was there; Jesus....

"In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations."

And the fruit are His words which give life....

And there was Satan.....

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Rev.12
[9] And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev.20
[2] And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Here Satan is referred to as a serpent and even an old one but it does not tell me it was the serpent in the garden.We get that he was in the garden from assuming that Lucifer was Satan or that the anointed cherub was Satan but I don't see the evidence of that.

Can a tree talk?

Physically and literally no.
However faith comes by hearing.

And the fruit are His words which give life.

Yes! Is it possible for you to eat from a tree to give you understanding?

Agreed,that would be interpreting spiritual things spiritually.
But I can't apply that arbitrarily.
Im not sure why the word "nachash" was translated as serpent as in Strong's 5175 and I'm not suggesting it is an incorrect interpretation. the word "nachash" as in Strong's 5172 could be a word play.

Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

This serpent was a beast of the field made by God apparently with the other beasts.It says nothing of a previous state of existence.It is not called a liar or a murderer only subtle or crafty.

 

[gdemoss]

Yes! Is it possible for you to eat from a tree to give you understanding?

Not that I know of. The only tree that did such a thing was only spoken of as a single tree in the Garden of Eden. But God said it happened and I believe him. I don't 'spiritualize' the text here.

Jesus told His followers to eat His flesh and drink His blood....but did they? Is this what Jesus really meant?

I follow you here. Jesus is the Word of God made flesh. While Jesus was here he deliberately hid the truth in parables and dark sayings.

Let's read what God asked Adam.....

Gen.3
[11] And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

Can a tree talk?

Who said the tree talked? Who said that someone actually told them they were naked? Did God ask questions because he didn't know the answers? Did God really not know where in the garden Adam was? Or was it really a garden? And were they really people? Maybe it is all just figurative stories to help the ape men who became men to understand God right? Too much twisting the word of God for my taste. It says God planted every kind of tree that was pleasant to the sight and good for food. Among these were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Eve saw that the tree of knowledge was pleasant to the sight and good for food. God said the tree was good for food and Eve acknowledged it. It was good. At the time it is mentioned, day six of creation week, "Everything" was very good.

As for Gods questions to Adam, we know God knew exactly where Adam was and just what Adam had done, yet, God asks "Where art thou?", "Who told you?", "Have you eaten?". I can not say dogmatically why God asked these questions as he did not tell us why. Nor did he expect us to come pick it apart and imagine the details. When my daughter has done something she shouldn't in my line of sight I may say "Kiley, where are you?" followed by "What is that all over your face?", followed by, "Have you been in the cookie jar that I told you not to get into?". In my home it is normal to ask questions this way.

Now let's read what God calls Satan.....

Rev.12
[9] And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Rev.20
[2] And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Satan is refered to as a snake and a dragon.

There were ONLY (2) spirit beings in the garden when Adam was there; Jesus....

ONLY? your emphasis. How do you know that? How is someone supposed to know that these trees are not really trees? And don't use some new testament unrelated scripture to show the possibility as we know about Jesus and the eating of his flesh and blood. We know Abrahams 2 wives are allegory because we are directly told so. But if we begin to start seeing things that are not there because we can imagine the connection we are in a dangerous place. The imagination of a man is wicked from his youth. There is a way that seems right unto a man that leads to death.

"In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations."

And the fruit are His words which give life....

And there was Satan.....

You have decided that the 'tree of life' is Jesus Christ. The tree of life is part of Gods creation that he made by Jesus.

22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life

So Gods plan was to keep man apart from Jesus? He desired that man should die and not live forever? Then changed his mind in the New Testament and gave them Christ so they could eat of his flesh and drink of his blood and live forever? God is not the author of confusion.

I think it is real simple. We weren't meant to spiritualize Genesis based upon Jesus testimony that his words were spirit. We were meant to see that God made a perfect creation and Satan fell. Satan then lead man to his fall. And that is how it all began. Clear to the point without confusion.

In Christ,


Gary

 

[gdemoss]

Ok,we have a man who doesn't know what good is,he also doesnt know what evil is.He is what we call innocent like a child who does not yet know the difference.

Did he know what death was? Why would God talk to him about things he didn't know? If he was innocent and didn't understand the difference between good and evil, how can God justify punishing him so harshly for breaking his law? He didn't understand.

If God said don't eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
because it will bring death then it is the knowledge itself that ushered in death and sin.

If the knowledge is to blame then why was Adam punished? Is God unrighteous?

God was not threatening the man he was sternly warning him of a dangerous consuming something a deviation in his way of thinking and speaking.

Ah, my friend, your English has got the best of me here. I don't understand. I'm trying but this one is too hard.

Did the sin come from the disobedience or from the knowledge.I feel that the fact that the tree contained the knowledge of evil is significant.

To say it came from the disobedience is to be parallel to everything the New Testament has to say about sin and disobedience. To say it is from the knowledge, one cannot find any references to the knowledge of evil being the problem that brought about sin.

If you mean that these words can be used in other ways then I suppose you have a point.I suppose thats why we are told to study to show thyself approved.
Again,I am not here to teach a doctrine but to learn(by questions) so
if you see error in this assumption please enlighten me.
I personally feel there is sufficient connection to investigate the possibilities.

If you can accept that arrows are sometimes used to describe words then perhaps it might be worth investigating.

The symbolism of arrows as things is used within the bible for sure. But I think it would be a mistake to say that Gods words are all arrows headed toward some mark. The word of God is more likened to a sword than anything but after all, it is in reality, his words and they are powerful.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

All(notice I didn't say "all things") was made by his word going forth and accomplishing it's task and not returning to him void.
Man was given the task of naming or assigning words to animals.

Very good illustration of Gods word going out and accomplishing its task but can it be of an arrow? It says his word does not return to him void. It doesn't say that his word does not return to him period. The arrow goes out to meet its mark but doesn't return to the archer.

If you assume the serpent is a personality named Satan.The serpent could be one of those things that is personified to make it easier to understand.

Very true. Considered this though. Satan is spoken of as being the God of this world. At the time of Christ he also had the power to give all the kingdoms of the world to Christ. Adam was originally given dominion over all of the Earth. Something happened that transferred that power from Adam to Satan. To whom you yield yourselves to obey his servants you are. Eve obeyed the voice of Satan, thus becoming his servant and not Gods. Eve, Satan's new messenger took Satan's gospel to Adam and the covenant was sealed with the first bite of the fruit. In this way Eccl is right. Satan spoke his gospel to Eve. But his mistake is thinking that Satan was the tree and that the fruit was his words. The words led Eve to eat the real and actual fruit. Satan has been spreading his gospel ever since "You can become Gods". Where God has his gospel that says "You can become the sons of God".

The word serpent sounds like it would not shoot very straight.A serpent can mean wavering,cyclical or changing.
We were given power to tread on serpents(waves of doctrine?)

Jesus gave that authority to 70 specific disciples. These were not the 12. He had a specific task for them. It appears he wanted them to learn about relying on God for their needs while keeping their focus on the kingdom since that was the focus of his later call back to this event. The 'serpents' spoken of here probably speaks of the unbelieving Jews just as John the Baptist called them serpents and vipers. Or maybe it is reference to the spirits they had power to cast out seeing as Satan himself is referred to as a serpent.

Evil was certainly in the garden in the form of a tree.
I said Adam could not sin because he did not know what wrong was.
It most likely would not occur to him to harm or do any wrong,he could only be what he was created to be.He had the power to name the animals so he worked with his words.

The tree was not evil. It was in the garden on day six of creation week. God said that everything there was very good. "He could only be what he was created to be". He was created to be disobedient? God deliberately made him so he would sin? And everything God created was very good? The logic doesn't follow. Because then you must say that evil is good: and if evil is good then why are sinners punished for doing evil?

I refer back to JonahofAkrons post.
I think Jesus would be Yarah,the way or path.
Jesus called himself the way.He was an arrow that went forth on a true and perfect path to accomplish the will of his Father.
Adam must have been hitting the mark before he had the knowledge of good and evil.Because missing the mark did not come until he partook of that deadly tree.

Once again arrows do not return to the Archer.

I was not addressing God's motives.
As a Father I know innocence is lovely.It seems to me that they were innocent and perfect and hitting the mark.Only one thing could go wrong as far as I see.
I wanted to protect my kids innocence but I did tell them not to play with matches.I did not however explain to them all the horrors of burning to death.
Are you suggesting God wanted them to know they were naked and die?

If you are not assigning motive (reasons why) then why did you give the reason God did it (protect mans innocence)? That is ascribing motive because no where in scripture are we told why God did it, unless you know of one. To say 'why' God did something when God didn't say why he did it is to 'add' to the word of God. It may seem to you that it is possible that it could be a motive for doing such a thing but without hearing from God we can't know.

If I were God and I wanted to protect mans innocence from the knowledge of good and evil I would have created the cloud of good and evil or at least put the tree up at the top of the Himalayan Mountains. That is if my 'motive' were protecting innocence. If his motive was protecting innocence he did a lousy job. He put it right where they could reach out and grab it.

No, I am not suggesting God wanted them to know that they were naked and for them to die. Gods will was for them to love him and enjoy him forever but he gave them the ability to choose and they chose not to follow God but Satan.

1. Jesus
2. the image of the invisible God.
3. First born of every creature
   1. For by him are all created,
      • that are in heaven,
      • and that are in earth,
      • visible and invisible,
        1. whether thrones,
        2. or dominions,
        3. or principalities,
        4. or powers:
4. And he is before all ,
5. and by him all consist
6. And he is the head of the body,
   • the church:

I agree up to this point,I don't feel that dropping the word things changes the meaning.God created all period.
In him we live and move and have our being.
All Things are pure to the pure and to the impure nothing is pure.

I do not understand your conflict of understanding. I know of the two verses you quote but fail to see what you are trying to get a crossed to me. I had this discussion with my wife and kids too. The all is referring to people. God did not reconcile the dirt, trees, water and animals to himself (all things). And the people reconciled are a specific group known as the church.

thanks for taking the time to reply, continue your study, I pray God will greatly bless you in the knowledge of himself to you.

Gary

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Did he know what death was? Why would God talk to him about things he didn't know?

Good questions,they are the same ones my studies led me to.
I don't think he could know and how can you talk to someone about things they don't know without revealing the things they don't know.

Ah, my friend, your English has got the best of me here. I don't understand. I'm trying but this one is too hard.

Sorry,I meant to say perhaps God was not threatening the man, maybe he was sternly warning him of a consuming a dangerous substance that would cause a deviation in his way of thinking and speaking.
Adam must have been hitting the mark before he had the knowledge of good and evil.Because missing the mark did not come until he partook of that deadly tree.

To say it came from the disobedience is to be parallel to everything the New Testament has to say about sin and disobedience. To say it is from the knowledge, one cannot find any references to the knowledge of evil being the problem that brought about sin.

I basically study both assumptions.The term missing the mark kind of shows something not performed rather than being something performed.That goes along with the new testament idea of whatever is not of faith is sin.
Romans 7 and 8 could be used as a reference.

Very good illustration of Gods word going out and accomplishing its task but can it be of an arrow? It says his word does not return to him void. It doesn't say that his word does not return to him period. The arrow goes out to meet its mark but doesn't return to the archer.

I think he has special boomerang arrows(lol)
Would you say that a hunter who drops a deer would have his arrow returned to him void?
No,it returned with a deer.

But I think it would be a mistake to say that Gods words are all arrows headed toward some mark.

I did not mean all his words were arrows.
If it can be like a sword(in some cases) it can be like an arrow(in some cases).His word reaches those near and those who are far.

Habakkuk 3:11 The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went, and at the shining of thy glittering spear.
Psalm 38:2 For thine arrows stick fast in me, and thy hand presseth me sore
Psalm 77:17 The clouds poured out water: the skies sent out a sound: thine arrows also went abroad.
Psalm 144:6 Cast forth lightning, and scatter them: shoot out thine arrows, and destroy them.
Ok maybe it is just an odd coincidence that the author chose to use archery terms,but it does help me.

Very true. Considered this though. Satan is spoken of as being the God of this world. At the time of Christ he also had the power to give all the kingdoms of the world to Christ. Adam was originally given dominion over all of the Earth. Something happened that transferred that power from Adam to Satan. To whom you yield yourselves to obey his servants you are. Eve obeyed the voice of Satan, thus becoming his servant and not Gods. Eve, Satan's new messenger took Satan's gospel to Adam and the covenant was sealed with the first bite of the fruit. In this way Eccl is right. Satan spoke his gospel to Eve. But his mistake is thinking that Satan was the tree and that the fruit was his words. The words led Eve to eat the real and actual fruit. Satan has been spreading his gospel ever since "You can become Gods". Where God has his gospel that says "You can become the sons of God".

Consider it considered.
But if I can't be sure I can't build a doctrine based on it.
I don't feel on solid ground placing Satan in the garden.
Some very elaborate assumptions and stories have been made based on the serpent being Satan.Ha-Satan (the accuser) does not make an appearance until the book of Job.He appears during a meeting with the sons of God but there is no indication that he was a Son of God.
Dante and Milton where not apostles they were fantasy writers with very creative imaginations.I can't base any doctrines on Lucifer,The anointed Cherub or the serpent in the garden all being Satan.

The tree was not evil

By their fruit you shall know them.A tree with good and evil fruit is a good and evil tree.
Galatians 5:9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

Jesus gave that authority to 70 specific disciples. These were not the 12. He had a specific task for them. It appears he wanted them to learn about relying on God for their needs while keeping their focus on the kingdom since that was the focus of his later call back to this event. The 'serpents' spoken of here probably speaks of the unbelieving Jews just as John the Baptist called them serpents and vipers. Or maybe it is reference to the spirits they had power to cast out seeing as Satan himself is referred to as a serpent.

Are you saying this authority was for that one time only?I thought it was a demonstration of the power that the body of Christ would wield.

If you are not assigning motive (reasons why) then why did you give the reason God did it (protect mans innocence)?

Yes,I would technically be wrong because I would be assuming he did not want Adam to die.Hopefully you can understand why a Father might think his child's innocence or his life has value.

I might see where you are going with this.
In tort law God(the designer/manufacturer) would be negligent for placing the tree in a manner that could have been accessed so easily.It was foreseeable risk.
So God either meant for man to go through death or he had no control over it.There is also the possibility that God did not foresee the possibilities that Satan(assuming Satan rebelled before Adam was created) and the man would rebel but that would conflict with much scripture.

He was created to be disobedient? God deliberately made him so he would sin? And everything God created was very good?

I never said or even inferred that,remember it was my erroneous assumption that God wanted Adam to live.

Isn't that what you are saying here?:

If I were God and I wanted to protect mans innocence from the knowledge of good and evil I would have created the cloud of good and evil or at least put the tree up at the top of the Himalayan Mountains. That is if my 'motive' were protecting innocence. If his motive was protecting innocence he did a lousy job. He put it right where they could reach out and grab it.

I know of the two verses you quote but fail to see what you are trying to get a crossed to me.

That God created all.All things including the church.You seem to be saying the only thing God ever created is the church.
I included Jesus's quote about all Things being pure because it could not possibly be referring to the church.

I do not understand your conflict of understanding.

After some consideration I felt that you might have assigned those verses to the church because the church is Christ's physical body on the earth.
If so then I feel that has enough merit to investigate.
Please do tell me how you have come to apply those verses to the church instead of Jesus.
Peace

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Greeting's RJ

"12 How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart:
'I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.'” Isaiah 14:12-14

I find a few problems with the Lucifer to Satan connection.
Lucifer is Latin and also translated morning star,day star,shining star,star of the morning and shining one.

Lucifer had already fallen from heaven when Isaiah wrote this.
In revelation there is war in heaven.
Revelation 12:9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
So if he had already fallen from heaven how did he get back in to play his part in the war in heaven?

Isaiah 14:11 All your pomp has been brought down to the grave, along with the noise of your harps; maggots are spread out beneath you and worms cover you.
This verse tells us that this being was brought down to the grave(Sheol) already.Satan is the prince of the power of the air at this present time.

Isaiah 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
Isaiah 14:10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?

Lucifer is like all the other dead kings of the earth.Satan is still at large.

Isaiah 14:16 Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: "Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble,
This event already took place to a man and Satan who is not a man is still at large.

Isaiah 14:20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

Satan never had a people,this man had land and a people.

Isaiah 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.
It gets really tough to try to make this fit Satan.
It seems to me it's about a man who is now in the grave.

The term "along with the noise of your harps" in 14:11 is often used to connect this man to the anointed Cherub in Ezekiel and place Lucifer in the garden as the serpent.
There is a connection between the cherub and Lucifer in that they are both men who went down to their graves they are both made a spectacle of before kings.They both had a glorious beginning and were perfect but fell.
The serpent was a beast of the field created at the same time the other beasts were.There is no fall of the beast serpent mentioned.

Jesus said Satan was a liar from the beginning.

Also, no offense but your name, This Cross Hurts, seems to show a lack a respect to me.

I mean no disrespect to God,you or the body of Christ.
If I joined today I would call myself wrestinginhim.
The w is because I'm wrestling to enter into his rest.
Also I wrestle for the souls those lost in darkness.
Someday I would like to become Thisresurrectionisawesome.
In retrospect I do regret that the name is not particularly edifying.
However I joined at a time when I was having good success at overcoming evil with good and was becoming overburdened by of some of the sacrifices I had made.I joined TJ because it gave me peace to try to encourage others.I'm sure a certain percentage of members and guests can relate to the feeling that God has called them to do more than they can bear.Many have those "Father why have you forsaken me" seasons.

May I ask: Are you a Christian and have Christ living in you?

I would need to know your definition of Christian and your definition of living in me.I believe I am and I believe I do.

 

[RJ]

Greeting's RJ

I find a few problems with the Lucifer to Satan connection.
Lucifer is Latin and also translated morning star,day star,shining star,star of the morning and shining one.

Lucifer had already fallen from heaven when Isaiah wrote this.
In revelation there is war in heaven.
Revelation 12:9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
So if he had already fallen from heaven how did he get back in to play his part in the war in heaven?

Isaiah 14:11 All your pomp has been brought down to the grave, along with the noise of your harps; maggots are spread out beneath you and worms cover you.
This verse tells us that this being was brought down to the grave(Sheol) already.Satan is the prince of the power of the air at this present time.

Isaiah 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
Isaiah 14:10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?

Lucifer is like all the other dead kings of the earth.Satan is still at large.

Isaiah 14:16 Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: "Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble,
This event already took place to a man and Satan who is not a man is still at large.

Isaiah 14:20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

Satan never had a people,this man had land and a people.

Isaiah 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.
It gets really tough to try to make this fit Satan.
It seems to me it's about a man who is now in the grave.

The term "along with the noise of your harps" in 14:11 is often used to connect this man to the anointed Cherub in Ezekiel and place Lucifer in the garden as the serpent.
There is a connection between the cherub and Lucifer in that they are both men who went down to their graves they are both made a spectacle of before kings.They both had a glorious beginning and were perfect but fell.
The serpent was a beast of the field created at the same time the other beasts were.There is no fall of the beast serpent mentioned.

Jesus said Satan was a liar from the beginning.

I mean no disrespect to God,you or the body of Christ.
If I joined today I would call myself wrestinginhim.
The w is because I'm wrestling to enter into his rest.
Also I wrestle for the souls those lost in darkness.
Someday I would like to become Thisresurrectionisawesome.
In retrospect I do regret that the name is not particularly edifying.
However I joined at a time when I was having good success at overcoming evil with good and was becoming overburdened by of some of the sacrifices I had made.I joined TJ because it gave me peace to try to encourage others.I'm sure a certain percentage of members and guests can relate to the feeling that God has called them to do more than they can bear.Many have those "Father why have you forsaken me" seasons.

I would need to know your definition of Christian and your definition of living in me.I believe I am and I believe I do.

Thanks for the reply!

find a few problems with the Lucifer to Satan connection.
Lucifer is Latin and also translated morning star,day star,shining star,star of the morning and shining one.

Lucifer had already fallen from heaven when Isaiah wrote this

I guess you will just have to bring that up with Isaiah someday!

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

I guess you will just have to bring that up with Isaiah someday!

Isaiah didn't make the connection between Lucifer and Satan,men did.He said Lucifer was a man and I believe him.Anyone who believes Lucifer is Satan might want to talk to him though.

 

[RJ]

Greeting's RJ

I find a few problems with the Lucifer to Satan connection.
Lucifer is Latin and also translated morning star,day star,shining star,star of the morning and shining one.

Lucifer had already fallen from heaven when Isaiah wrote this.
In revelation there is war in heaven.
Revelation 12:9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
So if he had already fallen from heaven how did he get back in to play his part in the war in heaven?

Isaiah 14:11 All your pomp has been brought down to the grave, along with the noise of your harps; maggots are spread out beneath you and worms cover you.
This verse tells us that this being was brought down to the grave(Sheol) already.Satan is the prince of the power of the air at this present time.

Isaiah 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
Isaiah 14:10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?

Lucifer is like all the other dead kings of the earth.Satan is still at large.

Isaiah 14:16 Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: "Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble,
This event already took place to a man and Satan who is not a man is still at large.

Isaiah 14:20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

Satan never had a people,this man had land and a people.

Isaiah 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.
It gets really tough to try to make this fit Satan.
It seems to me it's about a man who is now in the grave.

The term "along with the noise of your harps" in 14:11 is often used to connect this man to the anointed Cherub in Ezekiel and place Lucifer in the garden as the serpent.
There is a connection between the cherub and Lucifer in that they are both men who went down to their graves they are both made a spectacle of before kings.They both had a glorious beginning and were perfect but fell.
The serpent was a beast of the field created at the same time the other beasts were.There is no fall of the beast serpent mentioned.

Jesus said Satan was a liar from the beginning.

I mean no disrespect to God,you or the body of Christ.
If I joined today I would call myself wrestinginhim.
The w is because I'm wrestling to enter into his rest.
Also I wrestle for the souls those lost in darkness.
Someday I would like to become Thisresurrectionisawesome.
In retrospect I do regret that the name is not particularly edifying.
However I joined at a time when I was having good success at overcoming evil with good and was becoming overburdened by of some of the sacrifices I had made.I joined TJ because it gave me peace to try to encourage others.I'm sure a certain percentage of members and guests can relate to the feeling that God has called them to do more than they can bear.Many have those "Father why have you forsaken me" seasons.

I would need to know your definition of Christian and your definition of living in me.I believe I am and I believe I do.

So how did you interpret this verse? :

"12 How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart:
'I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.'” Isaiah 14:12-14

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

So how did you interpret this verse? :

"12 How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart:
'I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.'” Isaiah 14:12-14

I can't say I understand it,I have tried to research further but there is much to consider.For most old testament scriptures I try to understand how the Jews before Jesus's time would interpret them.Then do a word study and see how the words were used during that time.

Here is a description from the JewishEncyclopedia:

Septuagint translation of "Helel [read "Helal"] ben Shaḥar"
(= "the brilliant one," "son of the morning"), name of the day, or morning, star, to whose mythical fate that of the King of Babylon is compared in the prophetic vision (Isa. xiv. 12-14).
It is obvious that the prophet in attributing to the Babylonian king boastful pride, followed by a fall, borrowed the idea from a popular legend connected with the morning star; and Gunkel ("Schöpfung und Chaos," pp. 132-134) is undoubtedly correct when he holds that it represents a Babylonian or Hebrew star-myth similar to the Greek legend of Phaethon.
The brilliancy of the morning star, which eclipses all other stars, but is not seen during the night, may easily have given rise to a myth such as was told of Ethana and Zu: he was led by his pride to strive for the highest seat among the star-gods on the northern mountain of the gods (comp. Ezek. xxviii. 14; Ps. xlviii. 3 [A.V. 2]), but was hurled down by the supreme ruler of the Babylonian Olympus. Stars were regarded throughout antiquity as living celestial beings (Job xxxviii. 7).

It's not very helpful but the Jews didn't consider him to be Satan.
There is some evidence that certain Jewish sects began making the connections just before Christ's appearance.
This is also from the JewishEncyclopedia:

The familiarity of the people of Palestine with such a myth is shown by the legend, localized on Mount Hermon, the northern mountain of Palestine and possibly the original mountain of the gods in that country, of the fall of the angels under the leadership of Samḥazai (the heaven-seizer) and Azael (Enoch, vi. 6 et seq.; see Fall of Angels). Another legend represents Samḥazai, because he repented of his sin, as being suspended between heaven and earth (like a star) instead of being hurled down to Sheol (see Midr. Abḳir in Yalḳ. i. 44; Raymund Martin, "Pugio Fidei," p. 564). The Lucifer myth was transferred to Satan in the pre-Christian century, as may be learned from Vita Adæ et Evæ (12) and Slavonic Enoch (xxix. 4, xxxi. 4), where Satan-Sataniel (Samael?) is described as having been one of the archangels. Because he contrived "to make his throne higher than the clouds over the earth and resemble 'My power' on high," Satan-Sataniel was hurled down, with his hosts of angels, and since then he has been flying in the air continually above the abyss (comp. Test. Patr., Benjamin, 3; Ephes. ii. 2, vi. 12). Accordingly Tertullian ("Contra Marrionem," v. 11, 17), Origen ("Ezekiel Opera," iii. 356), and others, identify Lucifer with Satan, who also is represented as being "cast down from heaven" (Rev. xii. 7, 10; comp. Luke x. 18).

It could be referring to Satan,though I personally feel the evidence is not solid enough to form any kind of doctrine.
Wikipedia also has a very informative article on Lucifer.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

My new definition of sin is unbelief.period...

 

[jiggyfly]

The biblical definition of sin? What ever that definition is and I'm sure opinions vary, we know by the scriptures that it has been dealt with completely to God's satisfaction through Christ's death on the cross and sin no longer separates us from God. God won and sin lost. :shade:

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

God won and sin lost.

Yes,and now our new occupation is footstool maker.

Hebrews 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

That makes darkness and trials nothing but footstool material.

Unbelief that God defeated sin will give sin it's power back in your life.
So unbelief ends up being compliant with sin and exalts a defeated foe.