John 3:16 - What does it mean?

RJ · Dec 10, 2011

brakelite said:
Gary, I would like to commend you on the way you are patiently answering to the many challenges that are coming your way. I agree with you in your stance. We cannot earn our way to heaven. Yet like I mentioned in my previous post, we are judged by our works, whether they be good or bad, and our eternal destiny depends on this judgement.

Paul's letter to the Galatians is a fascinating epistle. The letter to the Galatians had begun the spiritual life of Martin Luther, whose writings sparked a revival in Britain through the teachings of Wesley. Possibly the oldest of any Christian document, Galatians deals with some very deep questions and issues that impinge directly on salvation.
Issues such as freedom, the role of the law in salvation, our condition in Christ, the nature of the Spirit led life, as well as the age old question: how can sinful humans be made right before a holy and just God? It also deals with the issue of 'once saved always saved'.
How so? The Galatian church was established by Paul. They started out right.

Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

The Galatians received the gospel of grace at the hands of Paul. He testified of this in several places. The Galatians however, who in the beginning had a solid faith in the saving work of Christ, had fallen into a state of pure legalism.

Gal 3:1 ¶ O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Paul is saying that at one stage they had received the Holy Spirit....

Gal.3: 4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

....and that through faith miracles had been worked among them. Shortly afterwards however Judaisers had entered the flock and demanded that they, Gentile converts, needed to be circumcised. Paul met this challenge to the true gospel with all the power he could muster. Why? Because the Galatians had shifted their focus away from Christ towards themselves.The faith that they started out with which rested solely upon the redeeming blood of the Saviour, had now shifted away from Christ and was resting upon a works based act of circumcision. Why did Paul view this as being so dangerous? Four reasons.

1. The first consequence of trying to earn God's favour by submitting to circumcision is that it obligates the person to keep the entire law. If one desires to live according to the law, ha cannot pick and choose which laws or precepts he wants to follow.

Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

2. The second consequence is that they are cut off from Christ. A decision to be justified by works involves at the same time a rejection of God's way of justification in Christ.
John Stott put it this way:
"You cannot have it both ways. It is impossible to receive Christ, thereby acknowledging that you cannot save yourself, and then receive circumcision, thereby claiming you can."
Paul reinforces this in several places.

Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.....
....4: Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Ro 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

3. Circumcision hinders spiritual growth. That word translated hinder (verse 7) has military connotations such as a tank trap or blown bridge. It completely halts any advance of the of the army, or in this case, the church.

4. Circumcision completely removes the offense of the cross. It implies that you can save yourself, and is thus flattering to human pride. The cross however is offensive to human pride, because through it we are dependant utterly on Christ and Him crucified.

The Galatians had fallen into apostasy. They had voluntarily switched allegiance from Christ to their own works of the law.
The entire letter is a theological and personal appeal to the Galatians to return to the gospel first preached to them by Paul. The letter details the contradistinction between righteousness by faith, and righteousness by works of the law. They are incompatible, the former being salvation by grace, the latter being not salvation at all. The Galatians had started out trusting in the former, but had now fallen from grace, backslid, and lost their salvation by trusting in the latter.
Hence Paul's sharp rebuke.

Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

From the above quoted verse, would you please explain to me what you think (the gospel of Christ) is?

gdemoss · Dec 10, 2011

RJ said:
I only believe what the bible says. It says that one who is the temple of the living god who defiles said temple will be destroyed. You say that we who have the Holy Spirit are his children. God says don't defile the temple or I will destroy you child.

Could you please provide the scripture for what you say above? Thank you.

1 Cor 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

RJ · Dec 10, 2011

gdemoss said:
1 Cor 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Thank You!

Please, 2 more questions:
1. Now, just how does a person go about defiling the temple?

2. Also, What does it mean that God will destroy you.?

gdemoss · Dec 10, 2011

brakelite said:
Gary, I would like to commend you on the way you are patiently answering to the many challenges that are coming your way. I agree with you in your stance. We cannot earn our way to heaven. Yet like I mentioned in my previous post, we are judged by our works, whether they be good or bad, and our eternal destiny depends on this judgement.

Paul's letter to the Galatians is a fascinating epistle. The letter to the Galatians had begun the spiritual life of Martin Luther, whose writings sparked a revival in Britain through the teachings of Wesley. Possibly the oldest of any Christian document, Galatians deals with some very deep questions and issues that impinge directly on salvation.
Issues such as freedom, the role of the law in salvation, our condition in Christ, the nature of the Spirit led life, as well as the age old question: how can sinful humans be made right before a holy and just God? It also deals with the issue of 'once saved always saved'.
How so? The Galatian church was established by Paul. They started out right.

Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

The Galatians received the gospel of grace at the hands of Paul. He testified of this in several places. The Galatians however, who in the beginning had a solid faith in the saving work of Christ, had fallen into a state of pure legalism.

Gal 3:1 ¶ O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Paul is saying that at one stage they had received the Holy Spirit....

Gal.3: 4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

....and that through faith miracles had been worked among them. Shortly afterwards however Judaisers had entered the flock and demanded that they, Gentile converts, needed to be circumcised. Paul met this challenge to the true gospel with all the power he could muster. Why? Because the Galatians had shifted their focus away from Christ towards themselves.The faith that they started out with which rested solely upon the redeeming blood of the Saviour, had now shifted away from Christ and was resting upon a works based act of circumcision. Why did Paul view this as being so dangerous? Four reasons.

1. The first consequence of trying to earn God's favour by submitting to circumcision is that it obligates the person to keep the entire law. If one desires to live according to the law, ha cannot pick and choose which laws or precepts he wants to follow.

Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

2. The second consequence is that they are cut off from Christ. A decision to be justified by works involves at the same time a rejection of God's way of justification in Christ.
John Stott put it this way:
"You cannot have it both ways. It is impossible to receive Christ, thereby acknowledging that you cannot save yourself, and then receive circumcision, thereby claiming you can."
Paul reinforces this in several places.

Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.....
....4: Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Ro 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

3. Circumcision hinders spiritual growth. That word translated hinder (verse 7) has military connotations such as a tank trap or blown bridge. It completely halts any advance of the of the army, or in this case, the church.

4. Circumcision completely removes the offense of the cross. It implies that you can save yourself, and is thus flattering to human pride. The cross however is offensive to human pride, because through it we are dependant utterly on Christ and Him crucified.

The Galatians had fallen into apostasy. They had voluntarily switched allegiance from Christ to their own works of the law.
The entire letter is a theological and personal appeal to the Galatians to return to the gospel first preached to them by Paul. The letter details the contradistinction between righteousness by faith, and righteousness by works of the law. They are incompatible, the former being salvation by grace, the latter being not salvation at all. The Galatians had started out trusting in the former, but had now fallen from grace, backslid, and lost their salvation by trusting in the latter.
Hence Paul's sharp rebuke.

Brakelite, I find your post inspiring. Please allow me to continue.

It is so easy to get words all twisted up. The Pharisees believed that they were righteous because they followed the law. They went about to establish their own righteousness through it and destroyed those who opposed it. And the truth is that they were righteous in all things that they followed according to the law. The problem is that there isn't a written law that can cover everything that would need to be covered in order that righteousness could come by the law. Thus Jesus' point with being angry in your heart with your brother is just as murder.

2000 years ago, Satan decided to use the Pharisees to overthrow the faith of some by drawing believers back to the law for righteousness. He continues to keep people drawn up in this argument to this day. He has also another equally frightening tactic he uses to cause believers to stray from the true law they are under. It is called Satan's Grace. You are saved by this Grace through belief (mental assent) in a punticular event where Satan's made up Christ died for your sin because you are a sinner and that is what sinners do is sin. You appreciate him so much for his grace that you spend the rest of your life trying your best not to sin anymore but miserably fail everyday. Once again going to his cross and saying thank you for the free pass because you are defective.

Jesus Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. As he is the righteousness of God manifest in the flesh by which manifestation did go declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past. And by declaring his righteousness, he can be just and the justifier of them that believe in Jesus. Those who pick up their cross and deny themselves, dying to themselves but having Christ live through them. Becoming dead to sin and alive unto God having put on the Lord Jesus Christ. And for this cause have they boldness in the day of judgement for they walk as he walked, they purify themselves even as he is pure. They keep themselves and the wicked one does not touch them. And at the end of their faith they receive salvation. So we work out this great salvation with reverent fear and trembling before an almighty God who is worthy of all praise, honor and glory. Heeding the warnings lest their be in any of us an evil heart of unbelief causing us to depart from the living God. We add to our faith, patience, knowledge, temperance, virtue, godliness etc., so that we can make our calling and election sure, and that an entrance might be ministered to us abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Welcome to the new Law, the law of Christ, the law of the Word of God. For many are called but few are chosen.

Mental assent to the truth without acknowledging the truth in your behavior is Satan's gospel.

Lord please prove our faith that it be justified by our works. Lest we let what you have said and been slip. Keep us in the faith walking as you have walked in the faith before us. Thank you for being the author and finisher of our faith. Emptying yourself of being in the form of God, never to return to your former state,to become a lowly servant who took no thought for yourself and by doing so never sinned, and were in fact the glory of the most holy God here on earth revealing unto us the way into the holiest of holies. For this cause, you were exalted by the Father and given authority over all creation. May we take strength in what we know of you and do as you did and resist unto blood, even unto death. By patient continuance in well doing, help us seek for glory, honor and immortality.

In Christ our King,

Gary

gdemoss · Dec 10, 2011

RJ said:
Thank You!

Please, 2 more questions:
1. Now, just how does a person go about defiling the temple?

2. Also, What does it mean that God will destroy you.?

1 Cor 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Here we have the living temple of God. Jesus Christ being the foundation. The defiled would be wood, hay and stubble. The undefiled would be gold, silver and precious stones. They became defiled by following false doctrine, which is iniquity, after hearing and believing the gospel (2 Tim 2:15-21).

RJ · Dec 10, 2011

gdemoss said:
1 Cor 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Here we have the living temple of God. Jesus Christ being the foundation. The defiled would be wood, hay and stubble. The undefiled would be gold, silver and precious stones. They became defiled by following false doctrine, which is iniquity, after hearing and believing the gospel (2 Tim 2:15-21).

I know these verse, pleas answer my previuos questions directly and how they pertain to the individual who defiles the temple?

gdemoss · Dec 10, 2011

RJ said:
I know these verse, pleas answer my previuos questions directly and how they pertain to the individual who defiles the temple?

This is a direct answer.

RJ · Dec 10, 2011

gdemoss said:
This is a direct answer.

I only believe what the bible says. It says that one who is the temple of the living god who defiles said temple will be destroyed. You say that we who have the Holy Spirit are his children. God says don't defile the temple or I will destroy you child.

THis is what you said in a previous comment and what prompted me to ask my questions but , since you refuse, I will answer them myself!

Your comment: " God says don't defile the temple or I will destroy you child."...Is way out of context. In no way is God going to destroy his child. You would like to use this, I think, to prove that a true Christian can fall away, be destroyed by God and go to hell.

The answer is: the one who defiles the temple is the unbeliever. A Christian has god living in them and can not defile the temple.

gdemoss · Dec 10, 2011

RJ said:
I only believe what the bible says. It says that one who is the temple of the living god who defiles said temple will be destroyed. You say that we who have the Holy Spirit are his children. God says don't defile the temple or I will destroy you child.

THis is what you said in a previous comment and what prompted me to ask my questions but , since you refuse, I will answer them myself!

Your comment: " God says don't defile the temple or I will destroy you child."...Is way out of context. In no way is God going to destroy his child. You would like to use this, I think, to prove that a true Christian can fall away, be destroyed by God and go to hell.

The answer is: the one who defiles the temple is the unbeliever. A Christian has god living in them and can not defile the temple.

Blindness is baffling to me. Obviously I think you are blind. Why you cannot simply read the text and understand within the context that unbelievers are never spoken of, is beyond me. I understand that it may not seem particularly clear when Paul is speaking about the temple building that is being constructed by various men. Their works being those that they are training up in the faith as the church or temple of God edifies itself. But that is why God clarifies by adding in the following verses about those who defile the temple being destroyed. The veil that is over your heart when you read the word of God is going to kill you.

The first mention in 1 Cor about unbelievers is in Chapter 6. Even the wicked person in chapter 5 was called a brother. Please open your eyes, for your sake.

brakelite · Dec 11, 2011

gdemoss said:
Brakelite, I find your post inspiring. Please allow me to continue.

It is so easy to get words all twisted up. The Pharisees believed that they were righteous because they followed the law. They went about to establish their own righteousness through it and destroyed those who opposed it. And the truth is that they were righteous in all things that they followed according to the law. The problem is that there isn't a written law that can cover everything that would need to be covered in order that righteousness could come by the law. Thus Jesus' point with being angry in your heart with your brother is just as murder.

2000 years ago, Satan decided to use the Pharisees to overthrow the faith of some by drawing believers back to the law for righteousness. He continues to keep people drawn up in this argument to this day. He has also another equally frightening tactic he uses to cause believers to stray from the true law they are under. It is called Satan's Grace. You are saved by this Grace through belief (mental assent) in a punticular event where Satan's made up Christ died for your sin because you are a sinner and that is what sinners do is sin. You appreciate him so much for his grace that you spend the rest of your life trying your best not to sin anymore but miserably fail everyday. Once again going to his cross and saying thank you for the free pass because you are defective.

Jesus Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. As he is the righteousness of God manifest in the flesh by which manifestation did go declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past. And by declaring his righteousness, he can be just and the justifier of them that believe in Jesus. Those who pick up their cross and deny themselves, dying to themselves but having Christ live through them. Becoming dead to sin and alive unto God having put on the Lord Jesus Christ. And for this cause have they boldness in the day of judgement for they walk as he walked, they purify themselves even as he is pure. They keep themselves and the wicked one does not touch them. And at the end of their faith they receive salvation. So we work out this great salvation with reverent fear and trembling before an almighty God who is worthy of all praise, honor and glory. Heeding the warnings lest their be in any of us an evil heart of unbelief causing us to depart from the living God. We add to our faith, patience, knowledge, temperance, virtue, godliness etc., so that we can make our calling and election sure, and that an entrance might be ministered to us abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Welcome to the new Law, the law of Christ, the law of the Word of God. For many are called but few are chosen.

Mental assent to the truth without acknowledging the truth in your behavior is Satan's gospel.

Lord please prove our faith that it be justified by our works. Lest we let what you have said and been slip. Keep us in the faith walking as you have walked in the faith before us. Thank you for being the author and finisher of our faith. Emptying yourself of being in the form of God, never to return to your former state,to become a lowly servant who took no thought for yourself and by doing so never sinned, and were in fact the glory of the most holy God here on earth revealing unto us the way into the holiest of holies. For this cause, you were exalted by the Father and given authority over all creation. May we take strength in what we know of you and do as you did and resist unto blood, even unto death. By patient continuance in well doing, help us seek for glory, honor and immortality.

In Christ our King,

Gary

Hi Gary. Amen and Thankyou for the above quoted prayer and post, you have an excellent grasp of the Christian walk of faith, how one must be sanctified by grace through faith as well as being justified.
I would like to add another error that many have fallen into, and although it is an extreme, it is commonly found and as dangerous as any yoiu spoke of. That is antinomianism. The belief that once one is saved, he/she is now no longer under any obligation to obedience to the laws of God. Although they claim to be concerned over sin, and they confess to being sinners, yet they also claim sin has no further bearing on their relationship with God.
Like the Jews at the time of Christ. So long as they could continue to operate their killing chain at the door to the temple, they thought they were home free. Many Christians have the very same attitude. So long as they have a "get out of jail free card" grazing in the back paddock they believe they are fireproof. It is extremely sad that they can be so presumptuous regarding the atonement made for us by the Son of the Most High.

RJ · Dec 11, 2011

brakelite said:
Hi Gary. Amen and Thankyou for the above quoted prayer and post, you have an excellent grasp of the Christian walk of faith, how one must be sanctified by grace through faith as well as being justified.
I would like to add another error that many have fallen into, and although it is an extreme, it is commonly found and as dangerous as any yoiu spoke of. That is antinomianism. The belief that once one is saved, he/she is now no longer under any obligation to obedience to the laws of God. Although they claim to be concerned over sin, and they confess to being sinners, yet they also claim sin has no further bearing on their relationship with God.
Like the Jews at the time of Christ. So long as they could continue to operate their killing chain at the door to the temple, they thought they were home free. Many Christians have the very same attitude. So long as they have a "get out of jail free card" grazing in the back paddock they believe they are fireproof. It is extremely sad that they can be so presumptuous regarding the atonement made for us by the Son of the Most High.

You and gdemoss are a real "tag team" and I know all of this is directed at the likes of me or someone like me.

I have never, not once, have I suggested your condemnation but, you two on the other hand, have repeatedly refered to mine. let's just make this one thing clear, It is God who knows what is in my heart and I will rest in my peace of him as my judge and not you two! So, stop with the judgement already.

I know you are good at not ansewring a question directly but, I wll try again. You will notice, I make no accusations of your possible salvation or condemnation!
First 2 scriptures:

Struggling With Sin

7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “Do not covet.”[b] 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. 9 Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.

13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.
14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21 So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin. Romans 7 :7-25

I am assuming that when St. Paul wrote this, you beleive that he was a saved person!
So, I am sure you have your own interpretation of the above Roman 7 verses but to me, it is St. Paul himself, talking about struggling with sin.
And, once he discusses this struggle between the flesh and the spirit, he immediately follows this up with the very first part of Romans 8:

Life Through the Spirit

1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3 Romans 8:1

So my two friends, please answer this one question:

How do you interpret what Romans 8:1 is saying?

gdemoss · Dec 11, 2011

RJ said:
I have never, not once, have I suggested your condemnation but, you two on the other hand, have repeatedly refered to mine. let's just make this one thing clear, It is God who knows what is in my heart and I will rest in my peace of him as my judge and not you two! So, stop with the judgement already.

RJ, that is true, you have never eluded to condemnation on our part and I know, at least I have for you and openly at that. It is what I discern (judge) to be true based upon scripture and I feel obligated to do my best to help you understand your position so that you may be able to recover yourself out of the snare of the devil. I can post verses of scripture like you do to 'prove' my point to you but that will never do you any good. Instead the word of God must be spoken to you and directed at you that maybe you will be cut to the heart by the truth.

I know you are good at not ansewring a question directly but, I wll try again. You will notice, I make no accusations of your possible salvation or condemnation!

RJ, why don't you accuse people of their salvation or condemnation? It is biblical to do so. Jesus did it. Paul did it. And I am to follow both of them. Jesus was good at not answering questions directly to those that were tempting him.

First 2 scriptures:

Struggling With Sin

Romans 7 not quoted due to links in post

I am very familiar with the text.

I am assuming that when St. Paul wrote this, you beleive that he was a saved person!

Get ready for the twist of Pauls words based upon his use of the present tense. Since Paul is using words in the present tense then it is assumed to mean that everything he is saying is currently true at that moment in his walk with Christ. That he is saying that he really sins all the time but it isn't him but sin that dwells within him. That he is saying that his whole hearts desire is to live without sin but it isn't possible until one dies and is delivered from the body of sin.

This is twisting the words Paul is saying to ones own destruction. The person who believes this way will find themselves rotting in hell. You must take the words of Paul within their greater context to understand them fully.

So, I am sure you have your own interpretation of the above Roman 7 verses but to me, it is St. Paul himself, talking about struggling with sin.
And, once he discusses this struggle between the flesh and the spirit, he immediately follows this up with the very first part of Romans 8:

Life Through the Spirit

Romans 8:1 (all links removed for easier quoting of people with low post counts)

So my two friends, please answer this one question:

How do you interpret what Romans 8:1 is saying?

Here is my indirect answer to your question. I interpret Romans 8:1 in light of the congruent message of the entire book of Romans.

Paul wrote Romans to all that be in Rome. It is a letter he wrote instead of a physical trip to them so that he might be able to plant and water seed there and the result end up in salvation for the hearers of the word of God. Paul covered the entirety of salvation within the pages of the letter.

GotQuestions dot Org said:
Question: "What is the Romans Road to salvation?"

Answer: The Romans Road to salvation is a way of explaining the good news of salvation using verses from the Book of Romans. It is a simple yet powerful method of explaining why we need salvation, how God provided salvation, how we can receive salvation, and what are the results of salvation.

The first verse on the Romans Road to salvation is Romans 3:23, "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." We have all sinned. We have all done things that are displeasing to God. There is no one who is innocent. Romans 3:10-18 gives a detailed picture of what sin looks like in our lives. The second Scripture on the Romans Road to salvation, Romans 6:23, teaches us about the consequences of sin - "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." The punishment that we have earned for our sins is death. Not just physical death, but eternal death!

The third verse on the Romans Road to salvation picks up where Romans 6:23 left off, "but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 5:8 declares, "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Jesus Christ died for us! Jesus' death paid for the price of our sins. Jesus' resurrection proves that God accepted Jesus' death as the payment for our sins.

The fourth stop on the Romans Road to salvation is Romans 10:9, "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." Because of Jesus' death on our behalf, all we have to do is believe in Him, trusting His death as the payment for our sins - and we will be saved! Romans 10:13 says it again, "for everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." Jesus died to pay the penalty for our sins and rescue us from eternal death. Salvation, the forgiveness of sins, is available to anyone who will trust in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.

Lets summarize what was said above by removing the commentary.

3:23 For all have sinned and fallen short the glory of God
6:23 For the wages of sin is death;
5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved
10:13 for everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved
5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
8:38-39 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

It can't get any simpler than that! I didn't realize that I was just reading the book of Romans out of order! From now on I will teach everyone to read Romans right.

Read Chapter 3 then go to chapter 6, after that you will be able to understand chapter 5. Proceed to chapter 10 before coming back to chapter 5 so you can really understand the importance of what 5 has to say. Finally my brethren go to chapter 8 to conclude your journey to salvation. See you in Heaven!

I don't think so. God is not the author of confusion. The so called Romans Road ends in a prayer to God for salvation in which you are supposedly eternally secure after praying.

Read Romans in order understanding the message as it is being crafted then you might understand salvation. Understand chapters 1-6 in order and you have the opportunity to understand what is actually being said in 7 then 8 as these two chapters are not independent thoughts.

For that matter, RJ, we also have to understand that Romans 8 is a key battleground for Satan and God. The Greek texts do not agree as to what God has actually said. Their are two versions of the text.

Textus Receptus translated into English said:
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Wescott & Hort translated into English said:
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

There is a significant difference here. One is conditional. The other is not. That is, when looking at the verse in an isolated state. It isn't something that cannot be discerned from the rest of the text though. I know that you use the NIV for a lot of your scripture quotes. I am not a fan of the NIV but that said, I do believe that the translators did a fairly good job with Romans 8 as it pertains to the basic idea of the chapter. But one cannot understand the truth that they have translated if he uses cut and paste theology like the Romans Road to salvation. 8:1 is a foundational statement for the next floor of the Romans edifice. The idea of condemnation not being in those who walk after the spirit but to those who walk after the flesh is still brought out in the NIV using the rest of the chapter even though it was omitted as a direct statement in 8:1. This is first understood as a complete thought in 8:1-4 which ends by telling us that those who live according to the spirit and not the flesh fulfill the righteousness that is in the law. 8:5-11 is more time spent contrasting those who live by the spirit versus those who live after the flesh. Beginning with verse 12 we see the conclusion of the matter (8:1-11). Our obligation is to live according to the spirit OR WE WILL DIE. He is speaking to Christians.

The beauty of the book of Romans is that it is designed to bring the reader to true salvation in Christ Jesus. As one reads the book they should become convicted by the message. The reprobates from chapter one should be cut to the heart when they read of their wickedness and be drawn to repentance. If those reprobates are led down Romans road they miss the opportunity for godly sorrow that works repentance. For Romans Road says your no different than everyone else, sin is sin and you just need a savior. So agree with God that Jesus is Lord and God raised him up and you'll be fine. Where is the godly sorrow that leads to real true repentance in that?

Notice that it isn't until after dealing with the two basic types of gentile unbelievers that Paul introduces the idea of Judgement to come. Romans road covers this by saying 'Yup you will die' A statement that cannot bring about godly sorrow. It isn't until after this that Paul introduces the idea of the Jew. The Jews know about judgement to come but felt they would avoid judgement by following the law of God. Paul calls them all law breakers which brings them back to the idea of eternal judgement. Now that he has everyones attention, he brings up Jesus. The righteousness of God without the law manifest in the flesh. It is as if Paul is sealing the fate of all whom he previously spoke of by displaying Christ upon his proper pedestal.

It is at this point that the translators of the NIV left the actual meaning of the text in their paraphrase and moved into a dangerous area of perversion of the Word of God along with the ESV and others. This chapter is understood in one of two ways and can define a persons ultimate belief in the definition of salvation.

One school of thought is that it teaches that all men are corrupted by sin and therefore are in need of the blood sacrifice that can actually atone for all sin ever committed be it past present or future. And that God has displayed his righteousness in providing the sacrifice but only to those who believe it. Therefore justification is through this faith in the blood of Christ and is entirely separate from the works of the believer.

The other is that it teaches that all men are corrupted by sin and therefore are in need of the blood sacrifice that can actually atone for sins committed. And that God declared or displayed his righteousness in the manifestation of Christ who did no sin. And this righteousness was declared for the remission of sins that are past through the forbearance of God. So that, God would be just in justifying those that believe in Jesus which faith is manifest by follow the example of Gods righteousness in Christ by putting on the Lord Jesus Christ. Henceforth why it is said that those who by patient continuance in well doing will receive glory, honor and immortality.

Am I of the Devil because I declare unto you that you must walk in the righteousness of God by following the example of the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved? To declare that you must pick up your cross and deny yourself to be saved? You must escape the corruption that is in the world through lust and not return again to it to be saved? That you must have the answer of a clean conscience toward God to be saved, which is achieved through baptism where one dies to sin and becomes alive unto God? To declare that you must obey Christ to be saved? To declare that you must walk in the faith of faithful Abraham to be saved? That you must not be a drunkard, fornicator, idolater, adulterer, effeminate, abuser of yourself with mankind, a thief, covetous, a reviler, an extortioner, unclean, lascivious, doing witchcraft, hateful , variant, emulative, wrathful, with strife, a rebel against authority, a heretic, Envious or a murderer in order to be saved?

Am I of the Devil because I declare unto you that you must become what God had originally created you to be in order to be saved? That is what true repentance toward God is. Without witch you will perish.

But you will say to me "I am the son of God now, was I created to be the son of God?" To which I answer "Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God."

You were created to be the son of God and God is only saying that you must act the part in order to be saved.

What you need for salvation:

Repentance toward God - Return unto your faithful Creator as a faithful creation.
Faith in the Blood of Christ as the attonement for your sin.

In conclusion of my indirect answer to your question, I say that, there is no condemnation to those who put on the Lord Jesus Christ and walk in the spirit instead of the flesh. Although a mans works cannot gain him salvation because he is dead in trespass and sin, God has in his grace made salvation available to those who will be obedient to his Word. Nobody has anything to boast in except Christ. If Christ is your idol then you will not be an idolater. Condemnation is reserved for those who love darkness and walk in darkness even though they have experienced the light.

The more I love you the less I am loved,

Gary

brakelite · Dec 11, 2011

RJ said:
You and gdemoss are a real "tag team" and I know all of this is directed at the likes of me or someone like me.

I have never, not once, have I suggested your condemnation but, you two on the other hand, have repeatedly refered to mine. let's just make this one thing clear, It is God who knows what is in my heart and I will rest in my peace of him as my judge and not you two! So, stop with the judgement already.

I know you are good at not ansewring a question directly but, I wll try again. You will notice, I make no accusations of your possible salvation or condemnation!
First 2 scriptures:

Struggling With Sin

7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “Do not covet.”http://www.talkjesus.com/#fen-NIV1984-28084b" target="_blank">b]">[b] 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. 9 Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.

13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.
14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.http://www.talkjesus.com/#fen-NIV1984-28095c" target="_blank">c]">[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21 So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin. Romans 7 :7-25

I am assuming that when St. Paul wrote this, you beleive that he was a saved person!
So, I am sure you have your own interpretation of the above Roman 7 verses but to me, it is St. Paul himself, talking about struggling with sin.
And, once he discusses this struggle between the flesh and the spirit, he immediately follows this up with the very first part of Romans 8:

Life Through the Spirit

1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,http://www.talkjesus.com/#fen-NIV1984-28103a" target="_blank">a]">[a] 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3 Romans 8:1

So my two friends, please answer this one question:

How do you interpret what Romans 8:1 is saying?

Hi, there is no judging going on here, we are merely discussing the various attitudes that are prevalent in modern Christianity. There is the right way where we have freedom in Christ within the confines of His laws, we have two extremes on either side. On the one hand we have legalism where many are attempting to be saved (eg the Galatians) by the works, or obedience to the law, and on the other hand we have what many call 'cheap grace' that claims one is saved unconditionally and the laws of God and obedience or disobedience to them has no bearing on ones ultimate destiny.

From your posts I believe we are correct in assuming you are of the latter class. Once saved always saved, and sin has no effect on your salvation even if you fall right back into the world and have no regard to Christ at all. This is the message I get from you anyway. Your excuse or reasoning however denies that possibility by claiming that if one draws back, he was never in the right place to begin with. The Galatians themselves are the counter to that argument.
You on the other hand persist in denying the plain teaching of the scriptures that clearly inform us that we are judged by our works, and our eternal destiny depends upon them. You refuse to recognise that Christians are not saved by their works, but once saved, their works are used as evidence in the judgement to ascertain whether they are saved or not. They are the only outward sign that there has been a change within. And the universe will see that God's judgements are true.

As to Romans 7, Paul is talking in past tense. He is speaking of his life before He was saved. That is why at the end he is able to ask the question woe is me...what can I do? Thank God for Jesus!!

RJ · Dec 11, 2011

gdemoss said:
RJ, that is true, you have never eluded to condemnation on our part and I know, at least I have for you and openly at that. It is what I discern (judge) to be true based upon scripture and I feel obligated to do my best to help you understand your position so that you may be able to recover yourself out of the snare of the devil. I can post verses of scripture like you do to 'prove' my point to you but that will never do you any good. Instead the word of God must be spoken to you and directed at you that maybe you will be cut to the heart by the truth.

RJ, why don't you accuse people of their salvation or condemnation? It is biblical to do so. Jesus did it. Paul did it. And I am to follow both of them. Jesus was good at not answering questions directly to those that were tempting him.

First 2 scriptures:

I am very familiar with the text.

Get ready for the twist of Pauls words based upon his use of the present tense. Since Paul is using words in the present tense then it is assumed to mean that everything he is saying is currently true at that moment in his walk with Christ. That he is saying that he really sins all the time but it isn't him but sin that dwells within him. That he is saying that his whole hearts desire is to live without sin but it isn't possible until one dies and is delivered from the body of sin.

This is twisting the words Paul is saying to ones own destruction. The person who believes this way will find themselves rotting in hell. You must take the words of Paul within their greater context to understand them fully.

Here is my indirect answer to your question. I interpret Romans 8:1 in light of the congruent message of the entire book of Romans.

Paul wrote Romans to all that be in Rome. It is a letter he wrote instead of a physical trip to them so that he might be able to plant and water seed there and the result end up in salvation for the hearers of the word of God. Paul covered the entirety of salvation within the pages of the letter.

Lets summarize what was said above by removing the commentary.

3:23 For all have sinned and fallen short the glory of God

6:23 For the wages of sin is death;

5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved

10:13 for everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved

5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

8:38-39 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

It can't get any simpler than that! I didn't realize that I was just reading the book of Romans out of order! From now on I will teach everyone to read Romans right.

Read Chapter 3 then go to chapter 6, after that you will be able to understand chapter 5. Proceed to chapter 10 before coming back to chapter 5 so you can really understand the importance of what 5 has to say. Finally my brethren go to chapter 8 to conclude your journey to salvation. See you in Heaven!

I don't think so. God is not the author of confusion. The so called Romans Road ends in a prayer to God for salvation in which you are supposedly eternally secure after praying.

Read Romans in order understanding the message as it is being crafted then you might understand salvation. Understand chapters 1-6 in order and you have the opportunity to understand what is actually being said in 7 then 8 as these two chapters are not independent thoughts.

For that matter, RJ, we also have to understand that Romans 8 is a key battleground for Satan and God. The Greek texts do not agree as to what God has actually said. Their are two versions of the text.

There is a significant difference here. One is conditional. The other is not. That is, when looking at the verse in an isolated state. It isn't something that cannot be discerned from the rest of the text though. I know that you use the NIV for a lot of your scripture quotes. I am not a fan of the NIV but that said, I do believe that the translators did a fairly good job with Romans 8 as it pertains to the basic idea of the chapter. But one cannot understand the truth that they have translated if he uses cut and paste theology like the Romans Road to salvation. 8:1 is a foundational statement for the next floor of the Romans edifice. The idea of condemnation not being in those who walk after the spirit but to those who walk after the flesh is still brought out in the NIV using the rest of the chapter even though it was omitted as a direct statement in 8:1. This is first understood as a complete thought in 8:1-4 which ends by telling us that those who live according to the spirit and not the flesh fulfill the righteousness that is in the law. 8:5-11 is more time spent contrasting those who live by the spirit versus those who live after the flesh. Beginning with verse 12 we see the conclusion of the matter (8:1-11). Our obligation is to live according to the spirit OR WE WILL DIE. He is speaking to Christians.

The beauty of the book of Romans is that it is designed to bring the reader to true salvation in Christ Jesus. As one reads the book they should become convicted by the message. The reprobates from chapter one should be cut to the heart when they read of their wickedness and be drawn to repentance. If those reprobates are led down Romans road they miss the opportunity for godly sorrow that works repentance. For Romans Road says your no different than everyone else, sin is sin and you just need a savior. So agree with God that Jesus is Lord and God raised him up and you'll be fine. Where is the godly sorrow that leads to real true repentance in that?

Notice that it isn't until after dealing with the two basic types of gentile unbelievers that Paul introduces the idea of Judgement to come. Romans road covers this by saying 'Yup you will die' A statement that cannot bring about godly sorrow. It isn't until after this that Paul introduces the idea of the Jew. The Jews know about judgement to come but felt they would avoid judgement by following the law of God. Paul calls them all law breakers which brings them back to the idea of eternal judgement. Now that he has everyones attention, he brings up Jesus. The righteousness of God without the law manifest in the flesh. It is as if Paul is sealing the fate of all whom he previously spoke of by displaying Christ upon his proper pedestal.

It is at this point that the translators of the NIV left the actual meaning of the text in their paraphrase and moved into a dangerous area of perversion of the Word of God along with the ESV and others. This chapter is understood in one of two ways and can define a persons ultimate belief in the definition of salvation.

One school of thought is that it teaches that all men are corrupted by sin and therefore are in need of the blood sacrifice that can actually atone for all sin ever committed be it past present or future. And that God has displayed his righteousness in providing the sacrifice but only to those who believe it. Therefore justification is through this faith in the blood of Christ and is entirely separate from the works of the believer.

The other is that it teaches that all men are corrupted by sin and therefore are in need of the blood sacrifice that can actually atone for sins committed. And that God declared or displayed his righteousness in the manifestation of Christ who did no sin. And this righteousness was declared for the remission of sins that are past through the forbearance of God. So that, God would be just in justifying those that believe in Jesus which faith is manifest by follow the example of Gods righteousness in Christ by putting on the Lord Jesus Christ. Henceforth why it is said that those who by patient continuance in well doing will receive glory, honor and immortality.

Am I of the Devil because I declare unto you that you must walk in the righteousness of God by following the example of the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved? To declare that you must pick up your cross and deny yourself to be saved? You must escape the corruption that is in the world through lust and not return again to it to be saved? That you must have the answer of a clean conscience toward God to be saved, which is achieved through baptism where one dies to sin and becomes alive unto God? To declare that you must obey Christ to be saved? To declare that you must walk in the faith of faithful Abraham to be saved? That you must not be a drunkard, fornicator, idolater, adulterer, effeminate, abuser of yourself with mankind, a thief, covetous, a reviler, an extortioner, unclean, lascivious, doing witchcraft, hateful , variant, emulative, wrathful, with strife, a rebel against authority, a heretic, Envious or a murderer in order to be saved?

Am I of the Devil because I declare unto you that you must become what God had originally created you to be in order to be saved? That is what true repentance toward God is. Without witch you will perish.

But you will say to me "I am the son of God now, was I created to be the son of God?" To which I answer "Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God."

You were created to be the son of God and God is only saying that you must act the part in order to be saved.

What you need for salvation:

Repentance toward God - Return unto your faithful Creator as a faithful creation.

Faith in the Blood of Christ as the attonement for your sin.

In conclusion of my indirect answer to your question, I say that, there is no condemnation to those who put on the Lord Jesus Christ and walk in the spirit instead of the flesh. Although a mans works cannot gain him salvation because he is dead in trespass and sin, God has in his grace made salvation available to those who will be obedient to his Word. Nobody has anything to boast in except Christ. If Christ is your idol then you will not be an idolater. Condemnation is reserved for those who love darkness and walk in darkness even though they have experienced the light.

The more I love you the less I am loved,

Gary

This is just what you said to me above:
RJ, why don't you accuse people of their salvation or condemnation? It is biblical to do so.
Here is the Biblical answer to you question and why I don't accuse:
Matthew 7

Judging Others

1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged.

But of course, I am sure you can distort this verse also to suit your purpose.

My feeling is what you spread is false and should not be listened to by others here at TJ!

gdemoss · Dec 11, 2011

RJ said:
This is just what you said to me above:
RJ, why don't you accuse people of their salvation or condemnation? It is biblical to do so.
Here is the Biblical answer to you question and why I don't accuse:
Matthew 7

Judging Others

1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged.

But of course, I am sure you can distort this verse also to suit your purpose.

My feeling is what you spread is false and should not be listened to by others here at TJ!

Amen, you do see the truth. We are on opposing sides. Either one of us is right and the other is wrong or we are both wrong.

You are the one I openly accuse of being a heretic and headed to hell if you do not repent. I believe you do it ignorantly in unbelief. I believe you have been deceived and go about to deceive others. You go about in other threads to console people who engage in sin but feel bad about it. Going to great lengths to let them know that they are secure even though they continue in sin....just so long as they feel bad about it afterward saying their guilt is a sign of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

You carry the message of the Devil "You shall not surely die if you sin" Your message ends in death.

Awake to righteousness and sin not,

Gary

jari · Dec 11, 2011

Gary I wasnt trying to condemn you but note of your way of interpreting the Bible how it differs from mine.. Thats all.

gdemoss said:
Hi Jari, hope your having a great day. You accuse me of misinterpreting the bible by not taking it literally. This is a serious charge. You accuse me of making assumptions to create my doctrine. Another serious charge.

I wasnt accusing you of anything.. But it seems to me that you take liberty to assume somethings on scripture. Like you said God will destroy some one.. You seem to be saying that means send to Hell? If so that's the kind of assumption I mean.

gdemoss said:
I agree Jari, doing Gods will does not make us born again. I have simply held to the point of what the bible says being born again is. Hearing the Word of God and believing it. The carnal mind is enmity against God. The Word of God is spirit and can only be spiritually discerned. Those who are spiritually dead and not quickened by the Word of God hear the words but their understanding is unfruitful.

In John 3 Jesus covered the topic of being born again. It was just believing on Him He speaks in there. What did Jesus miss? That we must also do all the many things mentioned in the word, and become born again by so? He only said believe.....

gdemoss said:
You have again accused me. Where have I said that you can work your way to heaven? I have said that your works cannot get you into heaven. It is too late for that as you have already blown it. I have said, however, that your works can keep you out of Heaven. Do you disagree? If so, can I be a drunkard and go to heaven?

You don't say you'r trying to earn it but you say you must do the things , or else you wont make it to heaven. That's exactly same thing but with different words.

Drunkars are forgiven too. That's what grace is , if you ask me.

gdemoss said:
Thank you for putting it in the form of a question. No. I did not say anything about earning salvation. Those are your words. I said the verse is conditional and uses 'if' to point out that we 'must' suffer with him in order to be glorified together. I know it is difficult to understand. It took me a long time to get it myself. Doing what God tells you that your supposed to do is not 'earning' your salvation. Instead, it is being 'obedient' to God which is also necessary to receive eternal life (Heb 5:9).

Having obedience as requirement is still same as earning salvation by works.

gdemoss said:
I only believe what the bible says. It says that one who is the temple of the living god who defiles said temple will be destroyed. You say that we who have the Holy Spirit are his children. God says don't defile the temple or I will destroy you child. Why is this so incredible for you to believe. For if God spared not his only begotten son but delivered him up for our offenses, why is it that you can't believe that he would destroy one who tramples underfoot the Son of God?

Because it only says destroys... saying that , that means throwing to hell is assumption..

gdemoss said:
Rom 8:1 is conditional. You must walk (read works) after the spirit. If you, as a christian believer, walk after the flesh you will die. The wages of sin is death.

Rom 8:9 is within the context of 8:1 and must be understood in that same light. Paul already said you must 'walk' or 'do all of your works' in the spirit. You pointed out that we are not longer just flesh and blood, Jari. We are no longer 'just' flesh and blood but rather a duality of flesh and spirit that war after each other. We 'must' walk in the spirit or there is condemnation in us.

If we must walk in spirit to avoid condemnation then that makes the point of having no condemnation kind of meaningless. Doesnt it?
The more we walk in spirit the less we sin indeed.
So I don't whats the point saying there's no condemnation for those who walks after the spirit because those who do not would be only one needing the much grace.

And Paul really was saying that your not in flesh IF Spirit of God dwells in you. So why does he say that then? If we are supposed Walk in spirit. Seems like having the spirit is only thing that makes us to be in the spirit and not in flesh.

So it seems like that was Pauls point that christians have the difference of indwell of holy spirit in them and thus are able to walk in spirit.

God bless you

gdemoss · Dec 11, 2011

Gary I wasnt trying to condemn you but note of your way of interpreting the Bible how it differs from mine.. Thats all.

You have an interesting way of putting it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gdemoss
Hi Jari, hope your having a great day. You accuse me of misinterpreting the bible by not taking it literally. This is a serious charge. You accuse me of making assumptions to create my doctrine. Another serious charge.

Click to expand...

I wasnt accusing you of anything.. But it seems to me that you take liberty to assume somethings on scripture. Like you said God will destroy some one.. You seem to be saying that means send to Hell? If so that's the kind of assumption I mean.

Yes, I believe that to destroy someone for God is to send them to an Eternal Hell. If you have another definition for it, I would be glad to entertain your idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gdemoss
I agree Jari, doing Gods will does not make us born again. I have simply held to the point of what the bible says being born again is. Hearing the Word of God and believing it. The carnal mind is enmity against God. The Word of God is spirit and can only be spiritually discerned. Those who are spiritually dead and not quickened by the Word of God hear the words but their understanding is unfruitful.

Click to expand...

In John 3 Jesus covered the topic of being born again. It was just believing on Him He speaks in there. What did Jesus miss? That we must also do all the many things mentioned in the word, and become born again by so? He only said believe.....

John Chapter 3, the born again chapter which is not the born again chapter but only made to seem that way by people who think being born again is believing in Jesus.

If believing in Jesus was being born again then why was Peter confused on the issue? 1 Pe 1:23,

Why did Jesus expect Nicodemus to already know what it meant to be born again if Jesus was just revealing it through John 3:16?

The bible teaches that you must be born again to enter into the kingdom of heaven yet Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will be there. They had not heard John 3:16. Yet they are born again believers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gdemoss

You have again accused me. Where have I said that you can work your way to heaven? I have said that your works cannot get you into heaven. It is too late for that as you have already blown it. I have said, however, that your works can keep you out of Heaven. Do you disagree? If so, can I be a drunkard and go to heaven?

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You don't say you'r trying to earn it but you say you must do the things , or else you wont make it to heaven. That's exactly same thing but with different words.

Drunkars are forgiven too. That's what grace is , if you ask me.

1 Cor 6:9-10 - Drunkards will not inherit the kingdom. Do you believe God?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gdemoss
Thank you for putting it in the form of a question. No. I did not say anything about earning salvation. Those are your words. I said the verse is conditional and uses 'if' to point out that we 'must' suffer with him in order to be glorified together. I know it is difficult to understand. It took me a long time to get it myself. Doing what God tells you that your supposed to do is not 'earning' your salvation. Instead, it is being 'obedient' to God which is also necessary to receive eternal life (Heb 5:9).

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Having obedience as requirement is still same as earning salvation by works.

Absolutely not. Heb 5:9 is clear and direct yet you deny the Word of God. You must obey Jesus to receive eternal life. That does not make it of works. It is impossible to have a works based salvation. Once you have erred you need grace to cover the err. That said, salvation can be of grace and still be conditional. Consider an employer who catches their employee stealing out of the register. The law says fire him but he may decide to employ grace and choose to forgive him. He may go one step further to say to that employee that he can keep his job upon the condition that he quit stealing from him. The employer has extended grace based on a condition. It is still grace. If the employee decides to walk all over the grace given him and the employer fires him in the end, that employee was still given grace. His job was saved by grace and not of himself he had no room to boast in anything but his gracious boss.

We are in the same boat. We were created to be the sons of God yet we have fallen short. God in his grace has given us a way to return to our former estate. If we choose to throw it away that is our fault not the fault of Gods wonderful grace.

Will you be obedient or take your chances thinking you have unconditional grace?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gdemoss
I only believe what the bible says. It says that one who is the temple of the living god who defiles said temple will be destroyed. You say that we who have the Holy Spirit are his children. God says don't defile the temple or I will destroy you child. Why is this so incredible for you to believe. For if God spared not his only begotten son but delivered him up for our offenses, why is it that you can't believe that he would destroy one who tramples underfoot the Son of God?

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Because it only says destroys... saying that , that means throwing to hell is assumption..

What does it mean to destroy them?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gdemoss
Rom 8:1 is conditional. You must walk (read works) after the spirit. If you, as a christian believer, walk after the flesh you will die. The wages of sin is death.

Rom 8:9 is within the context of 8:1 and must be understood in that same light. Paul already said you must 'walk' or 'do all of your works' in the spirit. You pointed out that we are not longer just flesh and blood, Jari. We are no longer 'just' flesh and blood but rather a duality of flesh and spirit that war after each other. We 'must' walk in the spirit or there is condemnation in us.

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If we must walk in spirit to avoid condemnation then that makes the point of having no condemnation kind of meaningless. Doesnt it?

No it does not. You had condemnation for your past sin. God forgave that on the condition that you turned to him and walk in his righteousness.

The more we walk in spirit the less we sin indeed.
So I don't whats the point saying there's no condemnation for those who walks after the spirit because those who do not would be only one needing the much grace.

We all need grace as we have all sinned. If you do not walk in the spirit but in the flesh you will die, even as a christian. The wages of sin is death but the gift of God, eternal life, is through Jesus Christ. Heb 5:9 goes right along with this verse. Through Christ = obeying Christ and receiving atonement.

And Paul really was saying that your not in flesh IF Spirit of God dwells in you. So why does he say that then? If we are supposed Walk in spirit. Seems like having the spirit is only thing that makes us to be in the spirit and not in flesh.

We have the ability to walk in to independent natures. The spirit and the flesh. These are contrary to one another. We choose which we will walk in every step of the way. If we choose to walk in the flesh we are working toward condemnation. If we choose the spirit, life. Either way we choose. God has just made the choice possible. People who don't seem to understand this point are always the ones who are continually walking in the flesh and trying to do better but not quite making it.

God bless you

God bless you to Jari, with an understanding of his truth.

Stickz · Dec 12, 2011

gdemoss

Is it possible that Peter fell from the grace that had been given to him? A true believer in Christ and yet made some bad choices on a couple of occasions? Let's say that Peter had not chosen to repent and be converted, would Jesus not have said, in that day, to him, "Go away from me ye that work iniquity?" And, of course, many people today would have declared that Peter had never been saved in the first place, otherwise he would have stayed so ....

Nevertheless, I believe that a person can lose their salvation, gdemoss, as do you, I think. I see a believer quickly become an unbeliever, when Peter stepped out of the boat onto the water with Jesus. He looked around, became afraid, and began to sink. But, he did immediately reach out to Jesus for help. Is it impossible to think that someone could believe ( be obedient ) with all their heart, be given authority from God to cast out devils, prophesy, and heal in Jesus' name, but then become an unbeliever ( disobedient ), and find it impossible to regain a believing position in their walk before their death? I believe this to be a possible scenario, and can also totally see Jesus saying to this person, "Go away from me ye that work iniquity, I never knew you." I also do not believe that the person, while in a state of disbelief ( disobedience ), would be able to continue performing miracles in Jesus' name.

brakelite · Dec 12, 2011

John 3:16 says that if we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, we shall be saved.
Some of us say that settles it regardless of what takes place after, some of us say its conditional on several things such as remaining in Christ and obedience.

So the question we must ask to settle this debate, (and the whole OSAS debacle) is this:

Is there a clear unambiguous example in scripture of anyone who was in a saved condition but at some point for whatever reason found themselves in an unsaved position, and would remain in that position without repentance?

If there is such an example, then the entire debate is settles once and for all, unless one side or the other chooses to remain blind.

In answer to the above question please read

Galatians 5:1 ¶ Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

RJ · Dec 12, 2011

brakelite said:
John 3:16 says that if we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, we shall be saved.
Some of us say that settles it regardless of what takes place after, some of us say its conditional on several things such as remaining in Christ and obedience.

So the question we must ask to settle this debate, (and the whole OSAS debacle) is this:

Is there a clear unambiguous example in scripture of anyone who was in a saved condition but at some point for whatever reason found themselves in an unsaved position, and would remain in that position without repentance?

If there is such an example, then the entire debate is settles once and for all, unless one side or the other chooses to remain blind.

In answer to the above question please read

Galatians 5:1 ¶ Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

If you will pardon me, I am a bit confused at what your saying:

1. No respect for others opinions
(and the whole OSAS debacle) So you couldn't say OSAS stance or OSAS discussion?

2. This is the question you posed:
Is there a clear unambiguous example in scripture of anyone who was in a saved condition but at some point for whatever reason found themselves in an unsaved position, and would remain in that position without repentance?

3. This is your anwer:

In answer to the above question please read

Galatians 5:1 ¶ Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
I thought it was well known that in Paul's day he was constantly at battle with forces outside of the Christian faith. These forces were continually telling the follower's of Paul to come back to the temple, participate in sacrifices and , according to Abrahamic Covenant, be circumcised.

In the days of Paul, Jewish Law demanded you to be circumcised.Basically what this verse is saying, is that, if you follow the law and become circumcised or you have already done it because of the law, this circumcision has nothing to do with salvation by Jesus Christ!

3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Paul says here that, if your going to be circumcised because of the law and as a part of those salvation requirements, then you have to do all of the law as well.

4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Again, Paul states plainly, as in the previous verses,those who think that they are justified by the law are not saved. These people are, in fact not saved, and therefore not accepting Christ as their salvation and, have fallen from salvation by grace alone.
This does not mean these people were once saved but fell away!
They were never saved to begin with, they were practicing the law and have not turned their life over to Christ.

If you, in fact believe otherwise, then you can not possibly believe in the New Covenant's salvation by grace alone!

So, I ask you this one question: Do you believe in salvation through Christ by grace alone or do you say you are saved by the Mosaic Law of the Jews?

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John 3:16 - What does it mean?

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