John 3:16 - What does it mean?

[jari]

Allow me to rephrase my points if I may. I am convinced that no-one will be given entry into heaven if they do not love, even though at some time in the past they may have accepted Christ into their lives.

• Love one another, of course, is the greatest commandment. What Paul says at the end of 1 Corinthians 13...this is what remains in this life: Faith, Hope and Love and of these love is the greatest. So, there is no argument, love is of the highest importance...Agreed!!!
• So, what is this love that you are talking about, that will determine our entry in to heaven? Is it your interpretation at the time of judgement or is it God's? I say Paul, back up in 1 COR 13, explains what this love is:......but have not love, I gain nothing.
  <SUP id=en-NIV1984-28654 class=versenum>4</SUP> Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. <SUP id=en-NIV1984-28655 class=versenum>5</SUP> It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. <SUP id=en-NIV1984-28656 class=versenum>6</SUP> Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. <SUP id=en-NIV1984-28657 class=versenum>7</SUP> It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. <SUP id=en-NIV1984-28658 class=versenum>8</SUP> Love never fails.
  
• This is "Agape" love...God's perfect love. So, a question to you is, as much as you would strive, can you do all of the above types of love perfectly? So by who's standard are :... no-one will be given entry into heaven if they do not love.... your's or God's? Do you honestly think God will hold up his perfect standard and judge you by that and only allow you entry if you have loved perfectly? I see no one in heaven by this standard!
  
• even though at some time in the past they may have accepted Christ into their lives. So, this is what I don't get: If you truely are born again....Christ in you...how exactly does Christ ever leave you? How, by any standard of heaven and earth do you get un-born? Where is the scripture that once in you, Jesus will depart?....I only see the opposite....he will never leave or forsake you!
  
• Many of God's workings is a mystery and we will never fully understand until "the imperfection leaves and the perfection comes". But while the both of us are saying what we think, here is mine: When you, as Jesus says " a Born Again" Christian, comes before God, he will see by your faith that Jesus lives in you and, He will only see his son and none of your short comings. And, then he will say: ....... <SUP>21</SUP> “His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!’ Matthew 25:21
  

I think these are good points. People who say you can lose your salvation don't care about these things. I wonder why? As if they were held in no value?
They use scripture to contradict and override other scriptures and seem to be ok with that. I've never heard any explanation to contradictions people make.
They also make assumptions on meaning of words.. giving them assumptious (new) meaning.
Which by doctrines get born... That are really hard to agree on without same kind of presumptions and compromises on apparent contradictions with rest of the bible.

It's really hard to learn anything useful from doctrines that cannot be explained clearly within context of the whole Bible.

I mean how can I trust them if I cant verify it with bible it self?

Anyway thanks RJ.

 

[james g]

I believe I am clothed with the righteousness of Christ that is imputed unto me because I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, who was crucified, buried and ressurected to be the atonement for my sin, making him both Lord and Savior, which belief is evidenced by my works in ceasing from my own works and putting on the Lord Jesus Christ and walking in his righteousness through out my life here on Earth until I depart and go to be with him.

You believe that you are clothed with the righteousness of Christ that is imputed unto you because you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, who was crucified, buried and ressurected to be the atonement for your sin, making him both Lord and Savior, which belief is evidenced by your works in trying to become more like Christ which is something that cannot be achieved this side of heaven so you often fail by succoming to the sin that so easily besets you, which God foreseeing has given you an advocate with the Father as your sin has been forgiven, past, present and future. Leaving you with nothing but security given by a God who Loves you, which love causes you to continue to love him.


Looking over both of these we can see the righteousness of Christ is claimed through being imputed. However, in the list of things that the church of Laodicea was being told they were was 'wretched'. Who would best fit that category above? One who is walking as he walked? Or one who is continuously being overcome by sin? Whichever it is, they are also blind to the fact that they are.


Hi Gary I would like to hear more on this .

Love james

 

[gdemoss]

Hi Gary I would like to hear more on this .

Love james

James, there are many differing ideas about true salvation. What it is. Can we lose it? You can find reference manuals by many different authors that I call the Mars Hill of Christianity. If you consider the fact that all of the 'greatest theologians' of all time as spoken of by men, you find that none of these so called great men completely agreed with one another, they were not of 'one' mind. In the churches today most dedicated biblical scholars have 5-10 of these works minimum on their bookshelves. Commentary upon commentary piling up to the heavens. God only wrote one book through the Holy Spirit and it is a perfect book that was written as to not need companion volumes to assist in understanding it. Instead he chose to install the teacher directly within the student as well as installing the teacher within others who would assist the student at a personal level, not an informal book outside of the bible.

That said, the reason these all exist is the complexity of the bible. It is designed not to give understanding to those who refuse to obey what God has given them to understand, while giving understanding to those who obey what they have understood. It is an awesome process of learning through the Holy Spirit, the will of God in your life. When you tell someone something of the truth who is being disobedient to what God has showed them in scripture they cannot see the truth and they come back to you assuring you of just how wrong you are. You show someone clearly that scripture states that you absolutely must obey Jesus to receive eternal life, the disobedient person holds on dearly to every scripture that might hint to the contrary. One must be careful to obey the light that they have been given or God will take even the light that they have.

Salvation begins at the cross. When someone sees the sinless Son of God nailed to it for his own sin out of love for them even though they are ungodly. God says in their heart that this is his son in whom he is well pleased, hear him. Jesus then says, unless you pick up your cross and follow me you will likewise perish. The only thing Jesus had to do to be nailed to that cross was to be sinless, as the evil around him could not stand to constantly see the light that shown through him. He has invited all of us to do the same. To pick up our cross, deny ourselves and follow him. We will receive the same treatment by those who live in darkness every time we get near them with the light of Christ shines in our lives. They will hate us as they do him and look for the nearest cross to hang us upon. To them that overcome, Christ will give the crown of life.

The secret, that is not so secret anymore, is that it all begins with understanding what it means to deny yourself as Jesus did. Although he 'was' God in form he left that to become an ordinary man without any godly power until receiving the Holy Spirit and power from God at his baptism. He had humbled himself before God the Father and was exalted in due time. The same promise we have if we will lay hold on eternal life. You can do all that he ever did as a man pertaining to not sinning. You can do all that the Holy Spirit will gift you to do for the kingdom of God's sake. You begin, by putting away the sin that so easily besets men and from there you grow in wisdom, understanding and knowledge until you reach the fullness of the maturity in Christ.

Enjoy your journey with God,

Gary

 

[RJ]

James, there are many differing ideas about true salvation. What it is. Can we lose it? You can find reference manuals by many different authors that I call the Mars Hill of Christianity. If you consider the fact that all of the 'greatest theologians' of all time as spoken of by men, you find that none of these so called great men completely agreed with one another, they were not of 'one' mind. In the churches today most dedicated biblical scholars have 5-10 of these works minimum on their bookshelves. Commentary upon commentary piling up to the heavens. God only wrote one book through the Holy Spirit and it is a perfect book that was written as to not need companion volumes to assist in understanding it. Instead he chose to install the teacher directly within the student as well as installing the teacher within others who would assist the student at a personal level, not an informal book outside of the bible.

That said, the reason these all exist is the complexity of the bible. It is designed not to give understanding to those who refuse to obey what God has given them to understand, while giving understanding to those who obey what they have understood. It is an awesome process of learning through the Holy Spirit, the will of God in your life. When you tell someone something of the truth who is being disobedient to what God has showed them in scripture they cannot see the truth and they come back to you assuring you of just how wrong you are. You show someone clearly that scripture states that you absolutely must obey Jesus to receive eternal life, the disobedient person holds on dearly to every scripture that might hint to the contrary. One must be careful to obey the light that they have been given or God will take even the light that they have.

Salvation begins at the cross. When someone sees the sinless Son of God nailed to it for his own sin out of love for them even though they are ungodly. God says in their heart that this is his son in whom he is well pleased, hear him. Jesus then says, unless you pick up your cross and follow me you will likewise perish. The only thing Jesus had to do to be nailed to that cross was to be sinless, as the evil around him could not stand to constantly see the light that shown through him. He has invited all of us to do the same. To pick up our cross, deny ourselves and follow him. We will receive the same treatment by those who live in darkness every time we get near them with the light of Christ shines in our lives. They will hate us as they do him and look for the nearest cross to hang us upon. To them that overcome, Christ will give the crown of life.

The secret, that is not so secret anymore, is that it all begins with understanding what it means to deny yourself as Jesus did. Although he 'was' God in form he left that to become an ordinary man without any godly power until receiving the Holy Spirit and power from God at his baptism. He had humbled himself before God the Father and was exalted in due time. The same promise we have if we will lay hold on eternal life. You can do all that he ever did as a man pertaining to not sinning. You can do all that the Holy Spirit will gift you to do for the kingdom of God's sake. You begin, by putting away the sin that so easily besets men and from there you grow in wisdom, understanding and knowledge until you reach the fullness of the maturity in Christ.

Enjoy your journey with God,

Gary

So Gary, Am I reading this right?.....You are perfect and without sin?

 

[gdemoss]

So Gary, Am I reading this right?.....You are perfect and without sin?

Cast the bait RJ

 

[RJ]

Cast the bait RJ

No direct answer again, Gary?

 

[gdemoss]

No direct answer again, Gary?

Will you indeed give an honest answer as to why you seek one?

 

[RJ]

Will you indeed give an honest answer as to why you seek one?

Yes I will but, in all fairness, please answer my question first?

 

[gdemoss]

So Gary, Am I reading this right?.....You are perfect and without sin?

To answer your question requires clarity. It isn't possible to read your question and simply give a yes or no answer. You added the word perfect into your question. What does it mean to be perfect? Jesus was not made perfect until he was ressurected and neither will I be, yet Jesus did not sin. Paul claimed to have not been made perfect but yet still claimed to be perfect all in the same. I believe that God has brought me to this point in my walk with Christ. Do I claim not to have sin dwelling in my flesh? Of course not. I have victory over sin it does not rule me. Do I claim to have never sinned? Of course not. I was born in sin. Do I claim that it is impossible for me to sin? Of course not. With Peter as my example I know it is possible. Is my claim that I have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust by partaking in the divine nature through the precious promises given unto me, according as his divine power has given unto me all things that pertain to life and godliness through the knowledge of him that has called me to glory? Yes, that would be the stake of my claim.

There are so many places in scripture that outright speak about sin being in the life of a brother that it would be absurd to suggest that everyone who is a brother never sins. Yet there is no scripture that suggests that a brother must sin. Those references in scripture that address sin in a brothers life are aimed at correcting the issue with the behavior of the individual that they do not perish being found in unbelief which is what disobedience is. Why should you marvel that I claim to walk as Christ walked when he was here? Is it not written that for that cause we have boldness in the day of judgement? Is it not written that now we are the sons of God?

Bait swallowed. Why do you ask?

 

[brakelite]

Allow me to rephrase my points if I may. I am convinced that no-one will be given entry into heaven if they do not love, even though at some time in the past they may have accepted Christ into their lives.

• Love one another, of course, is the greatest commandment. What Paul says at the end of 1 Corinthians 13...this is what remains in this life: Faith, Hope and Love and of these love is the greatest. So, there is no argument, love is of the highest importance...Agreed!!!
• So, what is this love that you are talking about, that will determine our entry in to heaven? Is it your interpretation at the time of judgement or is it God's? I say Paul, back up in 1 COR 13, explains what this love is:......but have not love, I gain nothing.
  <sup id="en-NIV1984-28654" class="versenum">4</sup> Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. <sup id="en-NIV1984-28655" class="versenum">5</sup> It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. <sup id="en-NIV1984-28656" class="versenum">6</sup> Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. <sup id="en-NIV1984-28657" class="versenum">7</sup> It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. <sup id="en-NIV1984-28658" class="versenum">8</sup> Love never fails.
  
• This is "Agape" love...God's perfect love. So, a question to you is, as much as you would strive, can you do all of the above types of love perfectly? So by who's standard are :... no-one will be given entry into heaven if they do not love.... your's or God's? Do you honestly think God will hold up his perfect standard and judge you by that and only allow you entry if you have loved perfectly? I see no one in heaven by this standard!

• No need to strive my friend, if Christ is in you and you are abiding in Him, then this kind of love will be made manifest in your life as fruit of the Spirit. And if we are to judge one another by their fruit, it makes perfect sense for God to judge us by ours don't you think?
  

Here is the standard by which we will be judged.:
Matthew 25:31 ¶ When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


Jesus Himself has set the standard.

• even though at some time in the past they may have accepted Christ into their lives. So, this is what I don't get: If you truely are born again....Christ in you...how exactly does Christ ever leave you? How, by any standard of heaven and earth do you get un-born? Where is the scripture that once in you, Jesus will depart?....I only see the opposite....he will never leave or forsake you!

  on 3 seperate replies to you in various threads I have offered an example of born again Christians falling from grace, and you have conveniently ignored them all. Here it is again:
• Galatians 5:1 ¶ Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
  2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
  3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
  4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
  
  

• [*]Many of God's workings is a mystery and we will never fully understand until "the imperfection leaves and the perfection comes". But while the both of us are saying what we think, here is mine: When you, as Jesus says " a Born Again" Christian, comes before God, he will see by your faith that Jesus lives in you and, He will only see his son and none of your short comings. And, then he will say: ....... ²¹ “His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!’ Matthew 25:21
  

Interesting scripture you quoted...the Father says well done....think about it.

 

[brakelite]

Sure I love you! And let's be perfectly clear, the word "coward" was your word, not mine.

The strongest thing I have said to you so far is "If you have courage" which you twisted. Now, on the other hand, you have said to me that I am a Heretic and that I am going to hell!....hmmmmm!

Here is a definition of Heresy:
Heresy (from Greek αἵρεσις, which originally meant "choice") is a controversial or novel change to a system of beliefs

You know, I just my have to appologize to you for my agnst against you calling me a Heretic because in one sense , you are exactly right!
I do commit heresy against the the old law system of salvation by following the law and works!!!!

I would be very interested in an example of anyone saved by law and works. Old system or new.

 

[agua]

I would be very interested in an example of anyone saved by law and works. Old system or new.

There isn't any. Not one.

People have only ever been saved by the grace of God because of their faith. OT / NT . The same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

 

[RJ]

I would be very interested in an example of anyone saved by law and works. Old system or new.

That's what I been saying all along, there is none, because we have never been saved by the law and works and never will be!

 

[jari]

Hi brakelite
may I answer some of your questions?

• No need to strive my friend, if Christ is in you and you are abiding in Him, then this kind of love will be made manifest in your life as fruit of the Spirit. And if we are to judge one another by their fruit, it makes perfect sense for God to judge us by ours don't you think?
  

Here is the standard by which we will be judged.:
Matthew 25:31 ¶ When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


Jesus Himself has set the standard.

I already replied to you on this. Did you not read? Jesus wasnt setting a standard... He was just telling how righteuss are like. Note the righteuss didnt know they did those good things... It wasnt an standard to them that they knowingly acomplished. They did the things because they were righteuss from pure motivation of love and not from motivation of earning heaven. And what makes one righteuss? Jesus. Faith in Jesus.

1Jn 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.


Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Tit 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

• on 3 seperate replies to you in various threads I have offered an example of born again Christians falling from grace, and you have conveniently ignored them all. Here it is again:
• Galatians 5:1 ¶ Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
  2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
  3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
  4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
  
  

They had fallen from grace but not lost their salvation. Paul was just saying they had error in their beliefs. And they were missing benefits God gives through His grace. Because they though they must do the works of jewish law to become justified. And so they did not trust God's grace anymore.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ View Post
So Gary, Am I reading this right?.....You are perfect and without sin?
Cast the bait RJ

Thanks I needed that

Still reading the posts. Playing catch up.

 

[brakelite]

Sure I love you! And let's be perfectly clear, the word "coward" was your word, not mine.

The strongest thing I have said to you so far is "If you have courage" which you twisted. Now, on the other hand, you have said to me that I am a Heretic and that I am going to hell!....hmmmmm!

Here is a definition of Heresy:
Heresy (from Greek αἵρεσις, which originally meant "choice") is a controversial or novel change to a system of beliefs

You know, I just my have to appologize to you for my agnst against you calling me a Heretic because in one sense , you are exactly right!
I do commit heresy against the the old law system of salvation by following the law and works!!!!

Here it seems to me that you are claiming that the old system of salvation was a law system of works through keeping the law. Hence my question, can you give me an example of anyone who was thus saved?

 

[brakelite]

Hi brakelite
may I answer some of your questions?



I already replied to you on this. Did you not read? Jesus wasnt setting a standard... He was just telling how righteuss are like. Note the righteuss didnt know they did those good things... It wasnt an standard to them that they knowingly acomplished. They did the things because they were righteuss from pure motivation of love and not from motivation of earning heaven. And what makes one righteuss? Jesus. Faith in Jesus.

1Jn 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.


Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Tit 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Yes, I did read your response earlier, and it seems you still do not understand what it is I am trying to convey to people. I am not claiming that we are justified by our obedience, not am I claiming we are justified by our acts of charity and love or generosity to others. It matters not one iota how good I am nor how many good things I have done, the only reason I have any hope of entering heaven is based solely on the blood of the Lamb. Agreed?
And so here we all are gathered together on the last day of earth's history and the angels have been sent to gather the harvest. The good fruit are gathered to return with Jesus to heaven, the bad fruit are gathered to be burnt. Okay?

Revelation 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Matthew 13:24 ¶ Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.


So what criteria does God use, and the angels to follow, in the first passage from Revelation? Is it not the identifying characteristics of fruit? Is not the harvest identified by the appearance and ripeness of its fruit? And in the above parable, the criteria is precisely the same. The harvest is judged by its fruit. In neither case is the harvest judged by its faith, or what it claims to be, nor by the fact that it is a plant growing in the ground. No, no. In both cases, and I could give many other examples from the scripture, the harvest at the end of time is judged by the nature and character of its fruit.
It is your fruit RJ and Jari that will be the identifying marks or characteristics that will be used in the judgement to ascertain whether you are fit for God's kingdom or not. Please do try and understand this. It is simple Biblical teaching and so very important to know.
Good fruit such as the love of God in our lives for others does not justify us, yet is absolutely essential if we are to ultimately enter heaven. God will not allow into His kingdom anyone who lacks that love.
And yes RJ, there are many Christians who do not exercise that love, for it is not an instant thing that happens overnight. It is a fruit of the Spirit that takes time to grow. And sadly there will be many Christians who appear before the Judge on that last day and decry the fact that have not allowed the Holy Spirit to work in their lives and create that most precious of fruit. Their names shall be blotted out of the Lamb's Book of Life even though Jesus bore with them in patience waiting for them to respond to His many appeals to repent. Just as He did to the church of Ephesus. Just as He is doing today to the church of the Laodiceans.

They had fallen from grace but not lost their salvation. Paul was just saying they had error in their beliefs. And they were missing benefits God gives through His grace. Because they though they must do the works of jewish law to become justified. And so they did not trust God's grace anymore.

Galatians 3:1 ¶ O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?


Allow me to quote again that previous passage from Galatians.

Gal. 5:1 ¶ Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?

Jari, I know that you believe that it is by grace we are saved through faith. No-one will be saved if they trust in their own works right? I have seen you quote Ephesians 2:8,9 many times and I agree with you on this.
Let me ask you a question.
The Galatians who had become circumcised, in what were they trusting for their salvation?

Gal. 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

 

[jari]

Hey Brakelite

Yes, I did read your response earlier, and it seems you still do not understand what it is I am trying to convey to people. I am not claiming that we are justified by our obedience, not am I claiming we are justified by our acts of charity and love or generosity to others. It matters not one iota how good I am nor how many good things I have done, the only reason I have any hope of entering heaven is based solely on the blood of the Lamb. Agreed?
And so here we all are gathered together on the last day of earth's history and the angels have been sent to gather the harvest. The good fruit are gathered to return with Jesus to heaven, the bad fruit are gathered to be burnt. Okay?

Revelation 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Matthew 13:24 ¶ Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.


So what criteria does God use, and the angels to follow, in the first passage from Revelation? Is it not the identifying characteristics of fruit? Is not the harvest identified by the appearance and ripeness of its fruit? And in the above parable, the criteria is precisely the same. The harvest is judged by its fruit. In neither case is the harvest judged by its faith, or what it claims to be, nor by the fact that it is a plant growing in the ground. No, no. In both cases, and I could give many other examples from the scripture, the harvest at the end of time is judged by the nature and character of its fruit.
It is your fruit RJ and Jari that will be the identifying marks or characteristics that will be used in the judgement to ascertain whether you are fit for God's kingdom or not. Please do try and understand this. It is simple Biblical teaching and so very important to know.
Good fruit such as the love of God in our lives for others does not justify us, yet is absolutely essential if we are to ultimately enter heaven. God will not allow into His kingdom anyone who lacks that love.
And yes RJ, there are many Christians who do not exercise that love, for it is not an instant thing that happens overnight. It is a fruit of the Spirit that takes time to grow. And sadly there will be many Christians who appear before the Judge on that last day and decry the fact that have not allowed the Holy Spirit to work in their lives and create that most precious of fruit. Their names shall be blotted out of the Lamb's Book of Life even though Jesus bore with them in patience waiting for them to respond to His many appeals to repent. Just as He did to the church of Ephesus. Just as He is doing today to the church of the Laodiceans.

So you believe you must have love to enter heaven? Well the parables not identify this as requirement. The parables only tell that the tares had become from the enemy. While God planted Good seed the enemy planted the tares. So if God plants us we are good seed. And we grow as wheat and not as tares. So were either good or bad from the beginning not because we become good. But because God made us good.

there is no charasterics God looks to when entering heaven... God looks to only in the fact that Jesus made us clean by faith. He also makes us new creation. And gives new heart. Its all God's doing that we are saved and changed but change is not requirement the more we believe the more we change. Its God loves that changes us.

Our self effort are like flihty rags before God.....

Galatians 3:1 ¶ O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?


Allow me to quote again that previous passage from Galatians.

Gal. 5:1 ¶ Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?

Jari, I know that you believe that it is by grace we are saved through faith. No-one will be saved if they trust in their own works right? I have seen you quote Ephesians 2:8,9 many times and I agree with you on this.
Let me ask you a question.
The Galatians who had become circumcised, in what were they trusting for their salvation?

Gal. 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

[/quote]

What did they trust for salvation? They seem to have trusted Jesus for that. But some one told them to start using circumsision to justify them self. This was error they followed and Paul corrected them to fully trust grace again.

 

[RJ]

Hey Brakelite


So you believe you must have love to enter heaven? Well the parables not identify this as requirement. The parables only tell that the tares had become from the enemy. While God planted Good seed the enemy planted the tares. So if God plants us we are good seed. And we grow as wheat and not as tares. So were either good or bad from the beginning not because we become good. But because God made us good.

there is no charasterics God looks to when entering heaven... God looks to only in the fact that Jesus made us clean by faith. He also makes us new creation. And gives new heart. Its all God's doing that we are saved and changed but change is not requirement the more we believe the more we change. Its God loves that changes us.

Our self effort are like flihty rags before God.....

Brakelite,

This is what you said to Jari and myself:

It is your fruit RJ and Jari that will be the identifying marks or characteristics that will be used in the judgement to ascertain whether you are fit for God's kingdom or not.
My fruit? I thought that I am the branch and Jesus is the vine? I thought the analogy was the branch could produce nothing with out the vine? The branch holds the fruit, bares the fruit, it does not produce the fruit except through and from the vine.
"I am the vine and you are the branch, if you are in me and I in you, you will produce much fruit, without me you can do nothing".
Let's see : Without Jesus you can bare no fruit but with Jesus you will bare much fruit. So, who's fruit is it really? I don't fully understand how but, I think its not my fruit but his fruit through me!

Please do try and understand this. It is simple Biblical teaching and so very important to know.
Don't try to understand it but, at the same time, it is a simple Biblical teaching....I am confused?
Could you provide scripture for this simple Biblical teaching?

Good fruit such as the love of God in our lives for others does not justify us, yet is absolutely essential if we are to ultimately enter heaven. God will not allow into His kingdom anyone who lacks that love.
And yes RJ, there are many Christians who do not exercise that love, for it is not an instant thing that happens overnight. It is a fruit of the Spirit that takes time to grow
So, again, you say that we must exercise either some type or perhaps amount of love to get into heaven. But, you say that we are not justified by this love but we must posess it before we get in heaven. This is a contradiction to me, I don't see brakelite how you can have it both ways. How can there be many Christians who do not exercise that love, as you say? If this is so, how are they Christians,with Christ in them, in the first place? How where they Christians to begin with?

And about this being good!:
"There is none Good but One, that is, God" Mark 10:18. Who but the Eternal God has always been Good? "Oh that men would praise the LORD for His Goodness, and for His Wonderful Works to the children of men!" Psalm 107:15. Neither created angels nor justified men can lay claim to but a moment of time or the remainder of Eternity to be Good. "The path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day" Proverbs 4:18....Brakelite, what do you think "unto this perfect day" means?
We can certainly believe that God is Good. "Thou art Good, and doest Good; teach me Thy Statutes" Psalm 119:68. And, who but God has always been? "From Everlasting to Everlasting, Thou art God" Psalm 90:2. Therefore, it is fair to say, "There is none Good but One, that is, God" Mark 10:18. And, I think most would agree that a Christian is marked by God as one who has Christ in him. So when it comes to possessing "Good Fruits" as you say: I think not that it is yours for no good is from us but from the one who lives in the true Christian!
Brakelite, I know you love God and want to please him and, to the best of my ability, so do I! But, I believe, we are not justified by our good fruit nor saved by them but by the grace of God through our faith or belief in his gospel.

You talked about "simple Biblical truth"...here are two of my favorites:

<SUP>6</SUP> being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. Philippians 1:6
Brakelite: His good work through us....not our good work through us!!!

<SUP>16</SUP> “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,<SUP class=footnote value='[a]'>[a]</SUP> that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life John 3:16
Not that we do this or we do that but, who ever believes in him!!!

 

[james g]

Spiritual growth involves Christlikeness, and Christlikeness is the fruit of the Spirit.

The purpose of the branch is to manifest the life and character of the vine. The fruit of the True Vine which is to glow in His branches is the “fruit of the Spirit.” And “the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, self-control” (Gal. 5:22, 23).