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Grace & Obedience

Colossians 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,

It does appear that being made alive was initiated by God and not by us.

Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

We were raised up in Christ and given life while we were dead in sins.
I don't even remember being raised and seated.
I really don't see any requirements on my part.
It seems more like a role that is available to fulfill.
Works will certainly affect our fulfilling that which God initiated.


You did have to receive it....That means you had to reach out and take it. Right?
 
Bible doesnt say you must worship. Or can you show verse where it says this?

Matthew 4:10
10 Then Jesus said to him, "Be gone, Satan! For it is written, "'You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.'"
 
The "Way," which means following Jesus, does indeed mean you "worship" Him (I have emphasized some of the key words in red):

Acts 24:14
14 But this I confess to you, that according to the Way, which they call a sect, I worship the God of our fathers, believing everything laid down by the Law and written in the Prophets,

John 4:24
24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."

John 9:31
31 We know that God does not listen to sinners, but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does his will, God listens to him.

Romans 12:1
1 I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.
 
Point is not who you worship but what it means.. do you have to sign praise songs everyday or will God get mad at you? and forsake you?
I dont think bible teaches anything like this.
 
Grace is given to us because no matter how hard we try we cannot make it without grace.

Yes we are expected to follow the moral laws of God, to show the kindness and compassion of Christ, but we cannot accomplish this without grace, no way.

I try pretty hard and still mess up, I did so yesterday. My wife was aggravating me with furniture moving .......I hate furniture moving. Lol~ So I used Gods name in vain. It just slipped out.

Sure I instantly apologized to God . But just the same I did it. I am sure I will do something else just as stupid soon. So only by grace can we obtain salvation. It is impossible for us to follow laws. We can mold ourselves with Gods help to be as good as we can be, but we can never obtain salvation by laws or rules as for sure we will not follow them perfectly. They are there to show us our shortcomings and our sins. Only be grace are we saved.

I am not concerned, do not misunderstand. God will just say, Kit I really do not know what to do with you, I feed you and you starve.
I hope you learned this time, how many more times will it take??

Just a true example.

Kit
 
Hi
I have question that's really tricky.

What does it mean to have grace and obey God and His word?

Can christian choose their life style because they are under grace and not law? Or does God expect us to follow His will for us?

Where is grace then?
Isn't it law and works then?

God bless you
Hi Jari.
Can we, even for a moment, seriously entertain the idea that the disobedient will be saved?
There are 3 kinds of people on the earth that fit into the context of our discussion.
1. Those who have no faith or belief in God, yet wouldn't dream of harming anyone, have never cheated on their taxes or stolen from anyone, would never contemplate adultery, and give generously to charity. Yet they will never enter heaven because they are still sinners: unless of course they accept Jesus as their Saviour. Without Jesus, their works will not save them.
2. People who do believe in God, who do accept that Jesus died for their sins, who go to church every week faithfully, tithe, give to charity, never swear or curse, steal, covet or commit adultery. Neither do they abuse their wives or husbands and never raise their voice to their children. These people trust that their lifestyle gains them influence with God. They believe that by doing these good things and not doing the evil things, that heaven is therefore their due. They will not be in heaven because they are not trusting in Jesus, but in their own works.
3. People who like the above do all those good things, and shun the evil. Unlike the above however they are not trusting in those things to gain them eternal life. They recognise that such works are nothing to boast of, because Jesus said "without Me ye can do nothing". They trust only in the blood of the Lamb. They love Jesus with all their hearts, and seek to obey Him in all things. They know however that in their own strength, they cannot keep the laws of God, nor can they grow fruitful in the Spirit nor can they they be effective witnesses to God's goodness without Jesus working in and through them. So in love and gratitude for all that God has done for them through Christ, they surrender to His will and allow His Spirit to change them into the image of Christ.
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Is obedience essential for entering heaven? I say yes. But if we are trusting in our obedience we are lost. For not just our justification comes by grace through faith, but also any power we have to obey God's commandments comes to us also by grace through faith.


If we have the very same Spirit that activated and motivated Jesus all His life to honor, obey, and surrender to the will of His Father, how can we not help but do the same? So we have nothing of ourselves to boast. Charges of ‘legalism’ and ‘cheap grace’ from either quarter fall flat. We have no ground for self-exaltation or pride. Our only hope is in the righteousness of Christ imputed to us by His death, and His righteousness imparted to us by His life. All is grace, through faith.

And as we partake of the power offered us freely by His grace, our lives become the holy sanctified examples of love and righteousness that the world so desperately needs to witness. The world sees no hope, and no future for mankind beyond the futile efforts of its vacillating lawmakers and politicians. They see corruption on every hand, and little promise that anything is going to change any time soon. They need us to reflect the holy love of a God who cares deeply for their welfare and their future. A love that doesn’t compromise with sin, that doesn’t seek the temporary entertainment features the world offers, but rather earnestly and sincerely seeks the well being of the lost and is willing to sacrifice self on behalf of those perishing in sin.

The world desperately needs to see Jesus. And it is in you and in me they will first meet Him.

Mat 5:13-16 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost its savor, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out and trodden under foot of men. Ye are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a lamp, and put it under the bushel, but on the stand; and it shineth unto all that are in the house. Even so let your light shine before men; that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
 
Point is not who you worship but what it means.. do you have to sign praise songs everyday or will God get mad at you? and forsake you?
I dont think bible teaches anything like this.


God loves you, Jari, but He doesn't want you going around suggesting things that aren't true. This morning, He made available, through another brother in Christ who had no idea about this thread, a message that coincides with what I've been saying. Here it is (I've emphasized some parts in red):

A New Year’s Resolution for 2012!

2012 is upon us. This is a good time to make a commitment to read the Bible every day. So many things want to rob us from seeking God. Our first priority in 2012 should be to seek Jesus in His Word above all else. Do you want to be closer to Him? Do you want power? Do you love Him? Do you want to discern deception?

IT’S IMPORTANT!

Luke 10:38-42
38 Now as they went on their way, Jesus[a] entered a village. And a woman named Martha welcomed him into her house. 39 And she had a sister called Mary, who sat at the Lord's feet and listened to his teaching. 40 But Martha was distracted with much serving. And she went up to him and said, “Lord, do you not care that my sister has left me to serve alone? Tell her then to help me.” 41 But the Lord answered her, “Martha, Martha, you are anxious and troubled about many things, 42 but one thing is necessary. Mary has chosen the good portion, which will not be taken away from her.”

Luke 11:28 "Blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!"

Matt 4.4 “Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.’

Job 23:12 “I have treasured the words of His mouth more than my necessary food.”

Deut. 6:5 “You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. 6 These words, which I am commanding you today, shall be in your heart. 7 You shall teach them diligently to your sons and shall talk of them when you sit in your house and when you walk by the way and when you lie down and when you rise up. 9 You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.’

Joshua 1:8"The words of this book shall not depart out of your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it; for then you shall make your
way prosperous, and then you shall have good success."

Psalm 1:1-3 “How blessed is the man whose delight is in the Word of the LORD. And in His Word he meditates day and night. 3 He will be like a tree firmly planted by streams of water, which yields its fruit in its season and its leaf does not wither; and in whatever he does, he prospers.”

Proverbs 4:20-22 “Listen closely to my words…for they are life to those who find them.”

Colossians 3:16 “And let the word of Christ dwell richly within your heart.”



IT’S POWERFUL

John 6:63 “My words are Spirit and they are Life.”

Ephesians 6:16 ‘The sword of the Spirit is the word of God.”

Hebrews 4:2"For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword."

2Corinthians 10:3 “For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh, for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful for the destruction of strongholds. We are destroying speculations raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to Christ.”

1Peter 1:23 “You have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God. 24 For, ‘all flesh is like grass, the grass withers and the flower falls off, but the Word of God endures forever.’ And this is the Word that was preached to you.”

James 1:21 “Therefore, putting aside all filthiness and all that remains of wickedness, in humility receive the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.”


IT’S HOW WE GROW TO BE MORE LIKE OUR FATHER (Godliness) AND JESUS (Christlike)

John 15:7 “If ye abide in me, and if my words abide in you… you will bear much fruit.”

John 17:17 “Sanctify them in the truth; Thy word is truth."

Ephesians 5:26 “God washes us with water from the Word.”

Psalm 119:9 “How can a young man cleanse his ways, by keeping it according to your Word.”

1Peter 2:2 “Like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow.”

Romans 10:17“Faith comes by hearing; and hearing by the Word of God.”


IT’S HOW WE LEARN TO HEAR HIS VOICE AND IT HELPS US TALK TO GOD

John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.”

IT’S HOW WE OVERCOME TEMPTATIONS OF THE DEVIL, THE WORLD AND THE FLESH

Psalm 119:11 “Your word I have treasured in my heart, that I may not sin against You.” (Jesus in Matt. 4)

IT HELPS US DISCERN TRUTH FROM ERROR, LIGHT FROM DARKNESS, DECEPTION

2Timothy 4:3 “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires.”
 
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Excellent post, Brakelite.

There are Christians who struggle through this world because they aren't staying close to Jesus. They make it to heaven, but their walk is a painful one because they give ground to Satan in their lives because of sin and they get chastened by the LORD because they aren't heeding His warnings.

Then there are Christians who simply fall away completely, Jari. It's a simple truth:

Some people receive the gospel with joy, but because this walk is hard they fall away and die. That means they don't go to heaven, Jari. Can you understand this? We are not to take this battle lightly. God has provided all the tools necessary (His Spirit is available as we pray daily, His word is a lamp in this darkness as we read it daily, both Spirit and word work together to get the sin out of us). These are not "works" this is the Way to Life!

Matthew 13:18-22
18 “Hear then the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is what was sown along the path. 20 As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away. 22 As for what was sown among thorns, this is the one who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful.
 
Is obedience essential for entering heaven? I say yes. But if we are trusting in our obedience we are lost. For not just our justification comes by grace through faith, but also any power we have to obey God's commandments comes to us also by grace through faith.

I need to give this a big AMEN! If I have implied otherwise, I want to clarify. We've got nothin'! It's all HIS work in us.

Jesus is the Vine. We are the branch. Father God prunes according to whether or not we bear fruit. If we're not bearing fruit, we get cut off and thrown into the fire. Does that happen immediatley? NO! God is longsuffering and merciful. But, when people get spiritually lazy they risk walking away from what God has given them. They still have freewill. We're in a battle, Satan is waiting to pounce. Stay close to God. He will deliver you from any attack of Satan.
 
Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

(Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?)

Now if Noah did not make an ark according to all that God commanded him.Would he have been saved?What would it of profit Noah , if he said he believed God, and have not prepared an ark according to all that God commanded him.Would he have been saved?Would he of been a heir of the righteousness which is by faith?

(Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.)

If you want to be saved you must believe God and have it accounted to you for righteousness.
 
Then there are Christians who simply fall away completely, Jari. It's a simple truth:

Some people receive the gospel with joy, but because this walk is hard they fall away and die. That means they don't go to heaven, Jari. Can you understand this? We are not to take this battle lightly. God has provided all the tools necessary (His Spirit is available as we pray daily, His word is a lamp in this darkness as we read it daily, both Spirit and word work together to get the sin out of us). These are not "works" this is the Way to Life!

There's no way you can say these people are born again christians who "fall away". What does it mean to fall away anyway? Stop going to church? stop seeking God?

I find it peculiar and I must say that your name says grace alone but everything you say points to works... You say the road is hard. This means its up to you wheter you make it or not. Even powered by God when you admit that the road (to heaven) is hard its not that your saved by grace anymore.

This is very confusing, what is there grace then?

People who do fall away probably never believed in God in the first place.

Faith that Jesus exists and has saved you is what makes the difference.
 
Can we, even for a moment, seriously entertain the idea that the disobedient will be saved?

This is something you must ask God.

But I'd say if we read bible to see what we must do in order to earn heaven then I think we have missed the point.


But if we serve God after we are saved then its no more works to try and earn heaven but obedience motivated by Love and rightneusness that's of Christ.

Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

I think God wanted us to live and move in the spirit and not by the letter.
Thinking we must do and be obedient or we wont earn a place in heaven.

Because Bible says salvation is a gift. So we just pass on that gift out of love.
But if we dont believe its truly a gift, then there's not so much love involvelved passing it along is there?



Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
 
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Rom 4:1-8 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

(2) For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. (3) For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.


(4) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. (5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


(6) Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,


(7) Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. (8) Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
 
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Jari, here is the grace: You will never walk without sin in this flesh. You will always need His forgiveness.

1 John 1:8-9
8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
 
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Jari, here is the grace: You will never walk without sin in this flesh. You will always need His forgiveness.

1 John 1:8-9
8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


so what good for is it to be forgiven of sin if you still cant get to heaven?
isnt it sin that keeps us from Heaven?
 
so what good for is it to be forgiven of sin if you still cant get to heaven?
isnt it sin that keeps us from Heaven?

Whoa Whoa Whoa!!! That is NOT what the WORD says!

FATHER said to be Holy


  1. Leviticus 20:7
    Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I am the LORD your God.
    http://classic.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus+20:6-8&version=KJV
  2. 1 Peter 1:15
    But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
    http://classic.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Peter+1:14-16&version=KJV
  3. 1 Peter 1:16
    Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy
Is HE going to tell you to do the impossible? No




1 Corinthians 15:34
Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.


Hmmm I sin because I don't KNOW HIM


1 John 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:


Look Even if I get my eyes off HIM and I do sin I have an advocate who washed the sin away and makes me sinless again.


Lets only say what the WORD says ok?
 
Whoa Whoa Whoa!!! That is NOT what the WORD says!

FATHER said to be Holy


  1. Leviticus 20:7
    Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I am the LORD your God.
    http://classic.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus+20:6-8&version=KJV
  2. 1 Peter 1:15
    But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
    http://classic.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Peter+1:14-16&version=KJV
  3. 1 Peter 1:16
    Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy
Is HE going to tell you to do the impossible? No




1 Corinthians 15:34
Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.


Hmmm I sin because I don't KNOW HIM


1 John 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:


Look Even if I get my eyes off HIM and I do sin I have an advocate who washed the sin away and makes me sinless again.


Lets only say what the WORD says ok?

Jesus sacrafice paid the price of all sins.


Always under grace:
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Always forgiven:
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
 
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