Grace & Obedience

[Peace Seeker]

There are Christians who simply fall away completely, Jari. It's a simple truth:
Some people receive the gospel with joy, but because this walk is hard they fall away and die. That means they don't go to heaven, Jari.

There's no way you can say these people are born again christians who "fall away".
... You say the road is hard. This means its up to you wheter you make it or not. Even powered by God when you admit that the road (to heaven) is hard its not that your saved by grace anymore. People who do fall away probably never believed in God in the first place.

I don't think true Christians can fall away completely. But I do believe there are professing Christians that fall away and perish and that those who fall away never were saved in the first place.

And I don't think it's up to me to preserve my salvation, God preserves it. No human-centered works will save me or keep me saved. Any works I do is because I am saved, not to ensure my salvation.
God is the author and finisher of my faith, not : "the author and it's up to me (works) to finish my faith". He empowers me to "make it", to endure. Unless I say my enduring is what saves me, which denies that Jesus saved me.

John 10:14-16; 10:27-30

In Jesus' parable about the Good Shepherd He doesn't speak of conditional sheep that (conditionally or temporarily) know Him as long as they keep doing things (works) that will (somehow) prevent them from falling away.
They just know Him, like a human child knows his parent; and that child cannot go from being a child to not being a child, any more than the sheep can become "un-sheep", and vice versa.

I know a lot of you will disagree with this, perhaps because you don't distinguish between professing and true Christians.

If Jesus says He knows John Doe and John Doe turns from Him and is damned, then that means Jesus didn't really know him! Jesus knows His sheep, and His sheep have salvation/eternal life.
If the sheep gets lost and strays, the Good Shepherd looks for and always finds them. Or does the Good Shepherd not always find His sheep, meaning He is unable to keep all of them?

What human work is so powerful that it can challenge the Father's power to preserve His sheep? Who is so powerful that he can pluck a sheep out of the Father's hand? It says no one WILL, and no one CAN snatch them out of His hand.
Does Jesus give a gift (eternal life) and take it back? Does He allow you to give it back? Then that means you perish even though it says you will never perish.

If we can give it back, it means we never had it to give back .

emphasis mine :
John 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Thy name.Those that Thou gavest Me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

If you aren't kept, it is because the Father never gave you to the Son. If you fall away it is because you are not sheep. Who does the keeping here, the Christian or Christ????

emphasis mine : 1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us. But they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

They go out from us because they are not of us. Those that ARE of us will never go out, because they are in the Fathers hands, where nothing can pluck them out. If they can be plucked out, then something is stronger than our Father's ability to keep them there. What, freewill????It doesn't say : "nothing, except free will can snatch them out of my Father’s hand !!!!

2 Timothy 2:13
if we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself.

 

[eddieb]

grace doesnt mean sin is ok , sin must be avoided. But sin is forgiven, thats what grace is.




If you have-to do something thats always works. Obedience is also works. Its just works set to you by God.

you just said what i said but different. im thinking you misunderstood what i said. which is ok.
except what i said about the leaning on him part. if you rely on him to in and thru you make you have different desires and deliver you from your wickedness thats not works. it cant be works cuz you are leaning on him. not doing anything really. except asking and believing and usually expecting. (not that he has to but that he can) and scripture commands us to do those things. (wait on the Lord)there are some things we are required to "do" that arent works. be not hearers only but doers of the word. works is self-righteous. trying to take credit for it and saying look what i did. even to the point of i did it for you God. example: i smoked ciggerettes. i wanted to quit (no doubt because the Holy Spirit was working on my consious) so i prayed. and prayed. and still some more. i also set a date. fasted some that day too. not once did i phiene. i cant brag i quit, nor will i dare. instead i tell others look what God did. when you get down to it i only prayed because God gave me a desire. this is leaning on him. honestly i doubt i would have quit if he didnt help me. i did nothing but respond to him. not much credit to be had there.

 

[brakelite]

I don't think true Christians can fall away completely.

Gal. 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

The Galatians which had begun their Christian walk in truth, wre genuine Christians. Their hopes ands faith were in Christ, they had accepted the gospel as preached to them by Paul, the gospel of grace.
However, some outsiders came knocking on the church door telling them that they must be circumcised to receive the full benefits of salvation. That trust in Christ alone was not enough. They must be circumcised to be saved. Some believed this and were duly circumcised. These deceived souls had switched their focus of faith from the blood of Christ to a work of the law. In Paul's own words, they had "fallen from grace" and that "Christ is become of no effect unto them". Look up a concordance and study the expression 'fallen from'. It can mean none other than complete loss of a former state or position. And if Christ now has no effect for them, what else can this mean other than a loss of salvation. A salvation they once had, but have no longer.

Another example of falling away is Paul's prophetic statement regarding the church....
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The falling away in this instant is even more graphic. The word used is
'apostasia', the root of which is the same word used for divorce. One cannot fall away into apostasy, nor can one be divorced, unless he/she is in a state of union in the first place. To be divorced form our Saviour is not a euphemism. It is a separation, permanent unless one repents at some later date. And in the context of 2 Thess. the church which falls away does not repent...it is destroyed finally at the second coming.

 

[jari]

Gal. 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

The Galatians which had begun their Christian walk in truth, wre genuine Christians. Their hopes ands faith were in Christ, they had accepted the gospel as preached to them by Paul, the gospel of grace.
However, some outsiders came knocking on the church door telling them that they must be circumcised to receive the full benefits of salvation. That trust in Christ alone was not enough. They must be circumcised to be saved. Some believed this and were duly circumcised. These deceived souls had switched their focus of faith from the blood of Christ to a work of the law. In Paul's own words, they had "fallen from grace" and that "Christ is become of no effect unto them". Look up a concordance and study the expression 'fallen from'. It can mean none other than complete loss of a former state or position. And if Christ now has no effect for them, what else can this mean other than a loss of salvation. A salvation they once had, but have no longer.

Big assumptions. Its not said they were Born again. They only believed in Jesus. There's big difference here, people who believe in Jesus and people who know Him as their personal savior.
Galatians where quick to change whole opinion about Jesus which shows their faith was not in so strong foundation.

Also its not said they lost their salvation. If they were born again they made huge error and went astray like a sheep. This is not much different from backsliding. In both cases people minds and hearts get side tracked from God.
And Galatians left the idea of grace there for a moment. Its not said this was causing them to loose their salvation. It just caused them to not trust in their salvation. If they even where such to begin with.

I think its good message to christians who can stop relying on God's grace. That they have fallen from the grace. And should put their hope in grace 100% again.

 

[brakelite]

Big assumptions. Its not said they were Born again. They only believed in Jesus. There's big difference here, people who believe in Jesus and people who know Him as their personal savior.
Galatians where quick to change whole opinion about Jesus which shows their faith was not in so strong foundation.

Also its not said they lost their salvation. If they were born again they made huge error and went astray like a sheep. This is not much different from backsliding. In both cases people minds and hearts get side tracked from God.
And Galatians left the idea of grace there for a moment. Its not said this was causing them to loose their salvation. It just caused them to not trust in their salvation. If they even where such to begin with.

I think its good message to christians who can stop relying on God's grace. That they have fallen from the grace. And should put their hope in grace 100% again.

Oh Jari, Jari. You really need to open your eyes. It is true that the letter doesn't say they were born again, but it does say this:
Galatians 3:1 ¶ O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

You also said, quote: Also its not said they lost their salvation. True, the letter doesn't say that. But it does say this.
Gal.5:7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
Surely you wouldn't dare suggest that one can be saved even though he doesn't obey the truth? That one can remove himself from one gospel to another false gospel and still be saved? (Gal.1:6,7)

Jari, with respect, your inconsistency astounds me. On other threads you champion grace whenever someone suggests that obedience is necessary for ultimate salvation. Your favourite quote is Ephesians 2:8. You repeat this text so often I wonder sometimes if your entire faith is founded on just that one text. Your claim that we are saved by grace is in fact unarguable. (We obey by grace too by the way, but that's another story). Yet here we have in Galatians a group of people, a church in fact, that has fallen from grace, yet you claim, quote:
Its not said this was causing them to loose their salvation!!!???? You have berated me in the past (presumptuously as if I was trusting in works in order to be saved), because I believe it is essential to obey God's commandments. You have said that if I trust in works, I cannot be saved, because we are saved by grace. And I agree with that! Yet here you say the Galatians, who once trusted in grace, but are now trusting in their works, are still saved!!! ???????

 

[faithfulservant]

Ok, I've been holding off on a couple of very pointed scriptures, as the Lord leads. Now it's time to make things very, very clear:

I wouldn't beat newborns in Christ over head with this, because meat is hard to chew when you need milk, but allow me to show you:

Peter the apostle walked with Jesus for 3 years. He loved the Lord, and was completely submitted to Him. However, as we are warned multiple times, this walk can be very hard and we must stay very close to Jesus as He will help us get through this.

Also, this is a very particular situation. First of all, Satan actually asked to "sift" Peter (ala Job, Luke 22:31). Additionally, Peter was quite prideful when he claimed that he would never deny our Savior (Matthew 26:33). Pride, even for the born again believer, still comes before the fall (Proverbs 16:18).

Ok, so... Let's take a look at what exactly happened when Peter denied our Lord. We know the Lord clearly stated (emphasis mine in red):

Matthew 10:32-33
32 So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, 33 but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.

Then, when they took our Lord as a Lamb to the sacrifice, Peter denied Jesus three times (emphasis mine in red):

Matthew 26:69-75
69 Now Peter was sitting outside in the courtyard. And a servant girl came up to him and said, “You also were with Jesus the Galilean.” 70 But he denied it before them all, saying, “I do not know what you mean.” 71 And when he went out to the entrance, another servant girl saw him, and she said to the bystanders, “This man was with Jesus of Nazareth.” 72 And again he denied it with an oath: “I do not know the man.” 73 After a little while the bystanders came up and said to Peter, “Certainly you too are one of them, for your accent betrays you.” 74 Then he began to invoke a curse on himself and to swear, “I do not know the man.” And immediately the rooster crowed. 75 And Peter remembered the saying of Jesus, “Before the rooster crows, you will deny me three times.” And he went out and wept bitterly.

I want you to notice a couple of things. First of all, Peter invoked a curse upon himself. What was that curse? The curse of the law as he denied Jesus. Jesus is the propitiation of our sins. He paid the sin debt. But if we deny Him we deny what He did on the cross for us.

If you look at the last line there, you will note that Peter wept. He was grieved with godly sorrow and repented of such an act. The Lord promised to pray for him to get through this sifting, but make no mistake Peter had brought the curse of the law back onto himself when he continued to deny Jesus.

Could it be any plainer? This is the truth. But there's more, if you feel you don't agree, Jari. Please pray on this, seek the Lord. I don't mean to shake anyone's faith.

The LORD has us right in the palm of His hand, if we staying close to Him. That's not works, that's worship.

 

[jari]

Oh Jari, Jari. You really need to open your eyes. It is true that the letter doesn't say they were born again, but it does say this:
Galatians 3:1 ¶ O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

You also said, quote: Also its not said they lost their salvation. True, the letter doesn't say that. But it does say this.
Gal.5:7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
Surely you wouldn't dare suggest that one can be saved even though he doesn't obey the truth? That one can remove himself from one gospel to another false gospel and still be saved? (Gal.1:6,7)

Jari, with respect, your inconsistency astounds me. On other threads you champion grace whenever someone suggests that obedience is necessary for ultimate salvation. Your favourite quote is Ephesians 2:8. You repeat this text so often I wonder sometimes if your entire faith is founded on just that one text. Your claim that we are saved by grace is in fact unarguable. (We obey by grace too by the way, but that's another story). Yet here we have in Galatians a group of people, a church in fact, that has fallen from grace, yet you claim, quote:
Its not said this was causing them to loose their salvation!!!???? You have berated me in the past (presumptuously as if I was trusting in works in order to be saved), because I believe it is essential to obey God's commandments. You have said that if I trust in works, I cannot be saved, because we are saved by grace. And I agree with that! Yet here you say the Galatians, who once trusted in grace, but are now trusting in their works, are still saved!!!

It's still not said they've lost their salvation because they erred from the truth. How many christians theres that got it all right? Not any.
This error they've made was not bigger than christians normally do. after all it was only one single act they believed was nessary. It could have lead to more legalism though.
So If id say they lost their salvation because they thought that was nessary i would also have to say no christians get to heaven unless they believe 100% correctly. I leave all judgin to God. I believe we should trust entirely on grace and not in anything else. But I dont judge anyone for thinking otherwise.
Also bible says some one is weak and eats herbs and some one eats meat. we all have different levels of faith and i cannot judge anyone.


the message of Ephesians 2:8 is important piece of the truth. remove that or misunderstood that and you have false doctrine. the same message that salvation cannot be earned by us is written by apostoles many times.

like i said when christians switches from trusting grace to trusting works I believe this hinders his relationship with God. But doesnt make him unsaved if he truly was so begin with.

Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Like Paul says not the works and what we are matter but faith and love.

 

[jari]

BGA. Im not sure what your saying? Peter had not received the Holy spirit yet so it was perfectly understandable that he denied Jesus. He wasnt born again. He hadnt even know Jesus would rise again yet.

 

[faithfulservant]

BGA. Im not sure what your saying? Peter had not received the Holy spirit yet so it was perfectly understandable that he denied Jesus. He wasnt born again. He hadnt even know Jesus would rise again yet.

You're ignoring the fact that the scripture I posted completely, and absolutely destroys your theory that man cannot walk away from their salvation in Christ. You stated no follower could ever lose their salvation. Now you want to backpedal and continue to rationalize sin and disobedience in His children.

But God placed you in such a corner for a reason, Jari, because now I'm going to show you irrefutable proof that a even a born again believer baptized in the Holy Spirit can also fall away from God. It cannot get any plainer than this. By the way, I was going to post this scripture the other night, and the Holy Spirit told me to wait. I now know why, as this is the perfect time and place to share this word. May the LORD bless you with ears to hear and eyes to see this simple truth (emphasis mine in red):

Hebrews 6:4-8
4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. 7 For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.

You have nothing to say to this, Jari. Nothing. Stop arguing this point, and simply seek the LORD on this. Jesus will show you, you should be ready for the meat. Let's put aside the milk and simply accept He has truth we may find difficult to hear.

To those who look at this scripture and worry, fear not. Stay close to Jesus. That's all you need to do. It's really that simple. He will teach you and guide you and empower you. The blessings are in obedience, not in running around in our flesh.

If you're worried because you don't have the power to overcome sin in your life, you are in good company. Every person who ever surrendered to the LORD has been in the same exact position. And Jesus delivers them just like He will deliver you. Just call upon Him in temptation. Cry out to God in your trouble. Seek His face diligently and He will reward you.

I pray the LORD will anoint this message with His Holy Spirit, and reassure the newborns who come across this with peace and love that they can be assured Jesus will take care of them. May they put their faith in the Lamb of God. In Jesus' name I pray.

 

[faithfulservant]

Allow me to take a closer look at that scripture, to assure those who may be full of fear (though the fear of the LORD is not really a bad thing). Anyhow, if we take a closer look at that scripture, there are 5 qualifiers for someone who falls away like this. What that means, is that newborns and the immature really don't have to fret over this message. This is for the people who've gotten so close to the LORD, so deep in His truth and love, that they really have no excuse for falling away. May we all get this deep in Christ:

Hebrews 6:4-8
4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. 7 For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.

#1) those who have once been enlightened
#2) who have tasted the heavenly gift
#3) have shared in the Holy Spirit
#4) have tasted the goodness of the word of God
#5) and the powers of the age to come

This is referring to super-mature Christians. If I could relate this to any other idea in the Bible, it may be compared to how Satan had known God so closely, but still chose to rebel. To whom much is given, much is expected.

Suffice it to say we really, really need Jesus to overcome in this world. Why is that so hard to accept? Isn't that what Christianity is all about? To really need Jesus?

 

[jari]

You're ignoring the fact that the scripture I posted completely, and absolutely destroys your theory that man cannot walk away from their salvation in Christ. You stated no follower could ever lose their salvation. Now you want to backpedal and continue to rationalize sin and disobedience in His children.

Your accusing me of this? you just keep throwing accusations against me...

But God placed you in such a corner for a reason, Jari, because now I'm going to show you irrefutable proof that a even a born again believer baptized in the Holy Spirit can also fall away from God. It cannot get any plainer than this. By the way, I was going to post this scripture the other night, and the Holy Spirit told me to wait. I now know why, as this is the perfect time and place to share this word. May the LORD bless you with ears to hear and eyes to see this simple truth (emphasis mine in red):


Hebrews 6:4-8
4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. 7 For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.

These verses arent speaking about born again christians. We have talked about them before in this forum. Sorry you didnt see the discussion so you would have known my view on this.

See born again does not fall away... these people came near but fall away. And its impossible to renew them to repentance. Why impossible? what kind of christian is impossible to make repent? impossible to continue follow Jesus?

The kind that never believed in the first place. If Holy spirit can convince person to stay then nothing can. Thats the lesson of Heb 6:4-8. These people become partakers in Holy Spirit and fall away to recrucify christ afresh for them.

They did not stay. trusting in Jesus sacrafice but fall away to recrucify Jesus for them like is Jewish custom to make continual sacrafices. Their disbelief in Jesus crucifiction was that made them fall away to form their own rightneusness and recrucify Son of God to them self afresh. And Kjv bibles says they thus but Him to open shame. Probably because they mix belief in Jesus with jewish custom and sacrafices and hold symbolical recrucifiction.

Leaving grace and holy spirit behind. And never become born again as believers in Jesus as their savior.

This does not mean some one doesnt always have second change to believe .

 

[jari]

This is referring to super-mature Christians. If I could relate this to any other idea in the Bible, it may be compared to how Satan had known God so closely, but still chose to rebel. To whom much is given, much is expected.

experience does not equal maturity. Like i noted before people come to Christ in different levels of faith and some experience power of Holy spirit right at the begin . Others dont experience as much.
What matters is being born again and God putting Holy spirit to indwell in you. Which is a seal until to day of redemption showing God has bought us.

God bless you

 

[faithfulservant]

You are beyond reproof, Jari, boldly denying what God's word says. I will pray for you.

 

[jari]

you dont have answers so can only blame others for not accepting your point of view.

and dont make lies about me.

 

[brakelite]

A short answer to the OP:
Grace is the opportunity and power to get it right....law is the knowledge of what right is.
We may not be able to work our way to heaven, but we can certainly disobey our way to hell.

 

[jari]

A short answer to the OP:
Grace is the opportunity and power to get it right....law is the knowledge of what right is.

contradiction:

We may not be able to work our way to heaven, but we can certainly disobey our way to hell.

i think you have lost the concept of what grace is. You just camouflage the works of the law in word grace.

And I don't mean to be rude but you could just as well be jew by that definition. They too had change to get it right by their conduct. And I think grace is much different from that.

If you ever read from Bible what made jews fails for disobedience that was caused by lack of faith.

So faith is the key even today, not our effort not our obedience, but our faith to the truth.

 

[jari]

Gal 3:1-3 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
(2) This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
(3) Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?


Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.


Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


Rom 5:15-16 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. (16) And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.


Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.


Rom 16:24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

 

[brakelite]

contradiction:



i think you have lost the concept of what grace is. You just camouflage the works of the law in word grace.

Grace is umerited favour. The power I speak of to obey and keep the commandments comes to us from God. It comes to us by grace. That power is unmerited, it is a gift which is unearned, undeserved. In order to receive such power we must have faith. We cannot obey in our own strength, with Jesus we can do nothing.
If you do not have the faith to believe that you can obey God's commandments Jari, if you do not have the faith to believe that God can keep you from sinning, then I fear you do not have the faith to give you entrance into the kingdom of God. And nor do you understand how big grace is, how far it extends, (even to giving us power to obey), and how all-powerful it is. Grace to you is simply a free pass to heaven. Sorry, but it entails much more than that.

 

[El Hombre viejo]

Grace is umerited favour. The power I speak of to obey and keep the commandments comes to us from God. It comes to us by grace. That power is unmerited, it is a gift which is unearned, undeserved. In order to receive such power we must have faith. We cannot obey in our own strength, with Jesus we can do nothing.
If you do not have the faith to believe that you can obey God's commandments Jari, if you do not have the faith to believe that God can keep you from sinning, then I fear you do not have the faith to give you entrance into the kingdom of God. And nor do you understand how big grace is, how far it extends, (even to giving us power to obey), and how all-powerful it is. Grace to you is simply a free pass to heaven. Sorry, but it entails much more than that.

Brakelite I have to step in here. Grace is not unmerited favor. Though it certainly is part of it, in that Grace is a thing we did not deserve. Grace is "The empowering PRESENCE of GOD that empowers us to do the things HE wants us to do."
Unmerited favor is "Mercy"
"By GOD's empowering PRESENCE are we saved..."
Because of HIS mercy? Yah!!


Hmmm Ok I guess you said the same thing in a bit more round about way LOL

 

[jari]

Grace is umerited favour. The power I speak of to obey and keep the commandments comes to us from God. It comes to us by grace. That power is unmerited, it is a gift which is unearned, undeserved. In order to receive such power we must have faith. We cannot obey in our own strength, with Jesus we can do nothing.

If God gives the power why do you still insist that salvation is partly self earned?
So you say the gift part is that God gives us another change to try again? And if we endure we earn heaven thanks to God's grace - this is what your saying.

then its not really a gift.

either its free or its not free. it cant be both, it must come without strings attached to it.

And bible says sins are forgiven, not what you say sinning must be stopped or else you wont get into heaven.
its the forgiveness that allows us into heaven not our effort to resist sin , powered by God or not.

so if bible says its free gift - then i believe that.