Are Gentiles under Jewish Law?

[B-A-C]

Are Gentiles under the Torah (Old Testament) Law?
Does God see the Jews differently from the Gentiles?
If the Gentiles are not under the law of the Bible, what law are they under? If it's not God's law, who's law is it?
If the Gentiles don't have a law that determines what sin is, (Rom 3:20, Rom 5:13) how can they sin?
If they can not sin, what do they need to be saved from? Indeed, why do they even need Jesus at all?

Rom 2:14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
Rom 2:15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

Even without the Torah, virtually all of us know right from wrong. So in a way, we do have the law. The Bible says there is no disctinction between Jews and Gentiles.

Rom 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;
Col 3:11 a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all.
The word "renewal" above could be taken as something changed from the old way, but what was it?

Rom 2:26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?
Rom 2:27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

It is isn't where you were born, or if you are physically circumcized that makes you a Jew in God's eyes. The question is, are you spiritually circumcized?

Rom 3:20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

again we see, ALL who believe, there is no disctinction of race here.
by the same token, the knowledge of the law brings sin (to all).

Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
If we can't sin until we have the law, how can any Gentile sin?

Act 15:7 After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, "Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe.
Act 15:8 "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;
Act 15:9 and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

again we see "no disctinction between the Jews and Gentiles, both need the Gospel, both need Salvation.

Act 15:10 "Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?
Act 15:11 "But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as the Gentiles also are."
Gentiles need to be saved, but from what? The penalty of sin? What determines what sin is? (Rom 3:20, Rom 5:13)

Rom 1:13 I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that often I have planned to come to you (and have been prevented so far) so that I may obtain some fruit among you also, even as among the rest of the Gentiles.
Rom 1:14 I am under obligation both to Greeks and to barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish.
Rom 1:15 So, for my part, I am eager to preach the gospel to you also who are in Rome.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
Rom 1:19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
Rom 1:21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

The greeks barbarians and Gentiles knew about God and his ordinances (v21 and v32) so they have no excuse.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
Psa 98:9 Before the LORD, for He is coming to judge the earth; He will judge the world with righteousness And the peoples with equity.

I believe God will judge us all equally (with equity) by the same standards.

If all of us born into sin (even the Gentiles)
Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--
What was the sin that Eve committed in Genesis 3? She ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
This would seem that this knowledge is passed on from generation to generation and we all have this knowledge at some level within us.

 

[jiggyfly]

OK and the point is?

 

[B-A-C]

OK and the point is?

Some say there is no sin anymore, in went away with the old covenant.
Some say there is no law anymore. (Not that we are free from the law under the grace of Jesus, simply there is no law anymore. It was only for the Jews anyway.

There seems to be a movement, in schools, media, and even here on TJ in some threads, God is love, it's all good, we're all going to heaven. It doesn't matter if you believe in Jesus or not. There is no universal truth, it's all relative, each person makes their own truth. God's word isn't black and white, it's just whatever you believe it to be.

The point is, there is still law, and there still sin.

Matt 5:18 "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
Luke 16:17 "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail.
Matt 5:17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

Those who are under the spirit aren't under the law, but for everyone else....

 

[jiggyfly]

Some say there is no sin anymore, in went away with the old covenant.
Some say there is no law anymore. (Not that we are free from the law under the grace of Jesus, simply there is no law anymore. It was only for the Jews anyway.

There seems to be a movement, in schools, media, and even here on TJ in some threads, God is love, it's all good, we're all going to heaven. It doesn't matter if you believe in Jesus or not. There is no universal truth, it's all relative, each person makes their own truth. God's word isn't black and white, it's just whatever you believe it to be.

The point is, there is still law, and there still sin.

Matt 5:18 "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
"But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail.
Matt 5:17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

Those who are under the spirit aren't under the law, but for everyone else....

Got a couple of questions for you BAC.
In Matt. 5:18 what do you think the "until all is accomplished" is referring to and what does it mean in reference to the law?

What do you think the purpose of the law was/is?

Has Christ fulfilled the law, if so how did He fulfill the law?

Do you believe that Christ came to take away the sin of the world, if so do you think He failed?

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

If they can not sin, what do they need to be saved from?

They don't need to be saved because if they can't sin then the work Jesus came to do was effective.The resurrection was proof of his victory over the last enemy and that was death.
Wouldn't that be good news if we could tell them Jesus came to save the world and guess what???...IT WORKED!!!!

 

[B-A-C]

Got a couple of questions for you BAC.
In Matt. 5:18 what do you think the "until all is accomplished" is referring to and what does it mean in reference to the law?

What do you think the purpose of the law was/is?

Has Christ fulfilled the law, if so how did He fulfill the law?

Do you believe that Christ came to take away the sin of the world, if so do you think He failed?

"All accomplished" means the end of the age. After the rapture, tribulation, millennial reign, and Satan is defeated.

The purpose of the law is to show us what sin is (even the Gentiles).

Jesus has fulfilled the law.

Christ came to take away the sins of the world yes, but is all the world going to be saved? No. Not even the majority.
In order for your sins to be forgiven a few things have to happen.

1. You must acknowledge you are a sinner in need a savior.
2. You must accept Jesus as your personal savior.
3. You must confess your sins.
4. You must ask for forgiveness for your sins.
5. Finally, you must believe that Jesus is able to remove your sin.

Jesus didn't die and"shazam" the whole world is saved.
Those who believe upon his name are saved. No one else is.

There are so many false teachings in the world today, the teaching that the whole world is saved is one of them.

 

[B-A-C]

They don't need to be saved because if they can't sin then the work Jesus came to do was effective.The resurrection was proof of his victory over the last enemy and that was death.
Wouldn't that be good news if we could tell them Jesus came to save the world and guess what???...IT WORKED!!!!

Only for those who accept him. Not anyone else.

 

[B-A-C]

1Pet 4:18 AND IF IT IS WITH DIFFICULTY THAT THE RIGHTEOUS IS SAVED, WHAT WILL BECOME OF THE GODLESS MAN AND THE SINNER?

Matt 7:13 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
Matt 7:14 "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

The fact is, many are going to hell.

Some people say "Becoming a Christian is easy" man makes it hard.
Well man does tto some extent, but so does Satan.

All we have to do is follow Jesus? Which Jesus?
The Jesus from the planet Kolob?
The Jesus that had sex with Mary Magdelene?
The Jesus that had a sinless mother?
The Jesus that didn't have any Earthly brothers or sisters?
The Jesus who is only a prophet?
The Jesus who is an angel and the brother of Satan?
The Jesus who isn't God?
The Jesus who was resurrected in Spirit only and not in the flesh.

None of those Jesus' are in the Bible yet millions follow them.

Matt 24:25 "Behold, I have told you in advance.
Matt 24:26 "So if they say to you, 'Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, or, 'Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them.
Mark 13:21 "And then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ'; or, 'Behold, He is there'; do not believe him;
Mark 13:22 for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.

So Ok, lets say we get lucky and pick the right Jesus.
Ok, it's easy to get saved, but is it easy to walk to in the light and live like a Christian?

1Pet 4:18 AND IF IT IS WITH DIFFICULTY THAT THE RIGHTEOUS IS SAVED, WHAT WILL BECOME OF THE GODLESS MAN AND THE SINNER?

Php 2:12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;

John 14:15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.




<DIR>Rom 8:4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Those who walk in the Spirit have the Law fulfilled in them (by Jesus' sacrificie) those who don't don't have the law fulfilled, it's that simple.

Rom 8:5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
Rom 8:7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
Rom 8:8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.




<DIR>2Co 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh,
2Co 10:4 for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses.
2Co 10:5 We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ,

If the battle is over, why do we still need to fight?

Eph 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.

Jesus did his part yes, but we have to accept it.



</DIR></DIR>

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

1. blesses[9:1] and commands[9:7][5] Noah and his sons, that they should be fruitful and multiply, and populate the Earth.

2. places all plants and animals under human command[9:2-3]

3. forbids eating meat with the blood still in it[9:4]

4. forbids murder[9:5]

5.Says that violent men will be repaid by violence[9:6]

6. promises that God will never again destroy all life on earth by flood[9:11]
7.creates the rainbow as the sign of this "everlasting covenant" for all ages to come[9:12-17]

This is the default covenant after the flood and it is an everlasting covenant that has not ceased.
There is no threat of eternal punishment so why would a gentile place himself under a harsher form of law than he already was.Accepting Jesus is an offer of life.

1Pet 4:18 AND IF IT IS WITH DIFFICULTY THAT THE RIGHTEOUS IS SAVED, WHAT WILL BECOME OF THE GODLESS MAN AND THE SINNER?

He will be saved without all that difficulty.

Do we pray that his will be done?
Is it his will that any perish?
Are we supposed to believe we have received that which we request.

I'm just following orders,now if I am told to pray that his will be done and I am to believe that I shall receive that which I request then it would be disbelief to believe some or any would perish.

 

[B-A-C]

Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."
If you want to be saved, you MUST accept Jesus.

Acts 16:30 and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Acts 16:31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
Acts 16:32 And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house.
Acts 16:33 And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household.
You could say well, the rest of his house didn't believe on Jesus. It doesn't say that. In fact the rest of his house got baptized as well.

Mark 16:16 "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Rom 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
What about those who aren't in Christ?

It is his will that none should perish, yet we know many will.
Some of these people will even believe they are "Christians" (likely those following some of the Jesus' I mentioned in a previous post).

Matt 7:22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
Matt 7:23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

Is everyone going to Heaven? Jesus said some won't.
Luke 10:15 "And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will be brought down to Hades!

Matt 10:28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Luke 12:5 "But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!

Matt 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
Matt 25:46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Those who don't accept Jesus and believe in him aren't saved.

<DIR>Rev 21:8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
</DIR>

 

[jiggyfly]

"All accomplished" means the end of the age. After the rapture, tribulation, millennial reign, and Satan is defeated.

How do you get "all accomplished" means "end of an age"? I couldn't find aion in the Greek text.

Jesus has fulfilled the law.

If Jesus fulfilled the law what else needs to be done concerning the law?

Christ came to take away the sins of the world yes, but is all the world going to be saved? No. Not even the majority.

So then you believe Christ didn't accomplish what He was sent to do, so in other words you believe He failed, correct?

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Acts 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

Peter was just beginning his understanding of the grace that was to be given to the Gentiles.Peter had to be corrected by Paul at later time do to his denial of the grace and equality given the Gentiles.

Peter denied Christ 3 times and Jesus told Peter to feed his sheep 3 times and the sheet with the unclean animals was let down in front of him 3 times.

Acts 11:14 He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.'

The angel told Cornelius that through this message his household would be saved.How could an angel or anyone know the whole house hold would be saved.
Now where is the freewill of the members in this mans household.The Spirit fell on them before Peter gave them the message.

Not one of them repented or asked about or even knew about Jesus first,no not one.
They were saved before they knew it and so are others who don't yet know.
I think we are supposed to tell them that they are part of the family.
At any rate I don't think it wise to point and say unclean just because we are offended by someone or even their beliefs..

 

[brakelite]

Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Paul tells us in the previous verse that Jesus died for this express reason. To condemn sin in the flesh that we might live in accordance to the law. What law is that? Surely it can only be that law which sin transgressed, for according to John, sin is lawlessness, or transgression against the law.
So how does one live in accordance to the law without being subjected to charges of legalism? By faith. By abiding in the vine, and allowing Jesus to create in us His image and likeness, by establishing in us His character, His divine nature of love, for love is the fulfilment of the law. Love doesn't do away with the law, it simply and effectively meets all its demands. Thus there is no condemnation for them that are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the spirit. Why is there no condemnation? Because they walk in love. Such is the beautiful simplicity of the gospel...such is the wonderful message of hope that we are privileged to offer a world without hope. That in Jesus Christ we have access to creative power that changes lives, frees from sin, and promises life eternal.

 

[brakelite]

Got a couple of questions for you BAC. In Matt. 5:18 what do you think the "until all is accomplished" is referring to and what does it mean in reference to the law?

May I offer a thought? For me 'all is accomplished' or 'all is fulfilled' can only mean one thing. The final and full reconciliation and atonement between God and man. When the entire controversy between Christ and Satan is over. Satan, sin, and sinners are destroyed, there is no more death, and peace, joy, love, and righteousness reign throughout all of God's creation. Then, and only then, can the law be done away with because all will be in full obedience to the law through the natural outpouring of love from every heart. And such a conflict we are currently witness to will never rise again.

 

[brakelite]

Oh and BAC, it never was just "Jewish " law. Mankind has been subject to God's laws from the beginning, way before there was any Jew.

 

[jari]

Why don't we look at what the bible says about our status with the low from more than one verse shall we?
We have in this thread couple good verses about Jesus fulffilling the law etc but let's look what Paul says about this.
If you believe this is the God's word it should explain it to you but if you don't that's a whole another story then.

Paul starts by saying that Law of works, which i believe is reference to moses law (which was about works) , is now excluded because of faith in Jesus :

Rom 3:27
Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

And He concludes the man is Justified by faith without the deeds of the Moses' law:

(Rom 3:28) Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

And i think brakelite was along same lines with this verse how we after all establish the law, so law still exists, but our justifacation doesn't come from it, it's more like about what love can archieve and that's meet the criteria of the law when we walk in spirit:

(Rom 3:31) Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

this seems to have similar meaning as in:

Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


However Paul has a good point that Abraham was justfied through Faith before he had any of the law, i think this makes it clear we too can be justified without the law and that's Paul's point:

(Rom 4:13) For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

And Paul explains what our attitude toward sin should be. we have grace now. but we shouldnt let sin have dominion over us. And that hasn't got anything to do with our justification because we always have the grace regardless - as Paul is stating "you are under grace" and not "if you want to be under grace, avoid sin":

(Rom 6:14) For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

We have infact died away from the law which Paul explains in rom 7, we simply don't exist metaphorically speaking in same country with law anymore, but we have left the laws of that coutry behind and thus cannot be judged by the law:
Rom 7:1-6
(Rom 7:6) But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

So if I may say conclude what the bible teaches about the law....... law is good if it's lawfully used (1Ti 1:8). By walking in spirit we meet criteria of the law because God's spirit doesn't lead us to sin but the contrary. Romans 8:4
Being justified by Grace through faith we receive rightneusness from Jesus also. 2Co 5:21
it's all part of God's gift that we are justified by faith only and receive His rightneusness that does not come from the law but from Him alone. Rom 3:24, Rom 11:6, Rom 11:6, Eph 2:5, Gal 2:21

 

[jari]

Oh and BAC, it never was just "Jewish " law. Mankind has been subject to God's laws from the beginning, way before there was any Jew.

except it had sin offering things in it and hygiene rules and others..

the jewish law has all the law there can possibly be from God to humans. atleast i believe it's perfect in this regard.

God bless you

 

[jiggyfly]

Are Gentiles under Jewish Law?

Are Americans under Tanzanian law, or are Oompa Loompas under Klingon law?

Ya ever think there is a reason it is called "Jewish law"?

 

[brakelite]

Are Americans under Tanzanian law, or are Oompa Loompas under Klingon law?

Ya ever think there is a reason it is called "Jewish law"?

So ummm...remind me...who are the real Jews again?

 

[Coconut]

Are Gentiles under Jewish Law?

If the Levitical Law were the Titanic, that ships been sunk in an ocean of blood.