What happens when you die?

[B-A-C]

There are a lot of opinions about this.

1. Everyone goes to heaven.
2. Some people go to heaven.
3. Everyone goes to hell.
4. Some people go to hell.
5. We go to either heaven or hell immediately upon death.
6. We lie in the ground for a while before going to either heaven or hell.
7. There is no after-life. No heaven, no hell. You just lie in the ground until you decompose, end of story.

There are even some verses in the Bible that seem to conflict about this, but I have some explanations as to why they may not be contradicting each other.

If you're an atheist, you pretty much believe option number 7 above.
For everyone else, we have the other 6 choices above.

Now this isn't one of those subjects that is really essential to your salvation, unless you are a Unitarian universalist, (they believe option 1)
Mormons also believe everyone is going to heaven in a manner of speaking. (Another subject here might be the different views of what heaven is).

It seems some pagans believe that everyone is going to hell. Another popular belief is that this current life we live upon the earth is either heaven or hell and there is no spiritual other world beyond this life.

As Christians, we pretty much have to believe that there is a heaven and there is a hell, and that the soul lives on after this physical life.

In the new Testament, we seemingly see two different points of view here. I disagree, but more on that later.

Lets start with hell. There are at least 5 words used for "hell" in the Bible.
I realize I named this thread "What happens after we die", but I think some definitions are in order here before get to far down this road.

NT Hell - gehenna
G1067
γέεννα
geenna
gheh'-en-nah
Of Hebrew origin ([H1516] and [H2011]); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; gehenna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment: - hell.

NT Hell - hades
G86
ᾅδης
hadēs
hah'-dace
From G1 (as a negative particle) and G1492; properly unseen, that is, “Hades” or the place (state) of departed souls: - grave, hell.

NT Hell - tartarus
G5020
ταρταρόω
tartaroō
tar-tar-o'-o
From Τάρταρος Tartaros̄ (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in eternal torment: - cast down to hell.

OT Hell - sheol
H7585
שׁאל שׁאול
she'ôl she'ôl
sheh-ole', sheh-ole'
From H7592; hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranian retreat), including its accessories and inmates: - grave, hell, pit.

OT Hell - maveth
H4194
מות
mâveth
maw'-veth
From H4191; death (natural or violent); concretely the dead, their place or state (hades); figuratively pestilence, ruin: - (be) dead ([-ly]), death, die (-d).

These are the five most commonly used in the Bible. Three words in the New Testament, and two words in the Old Testament are what we see here.
There are a variety of meanings here depending on what context they are used in.

Hell can mean simply death, but it can also be used as a noun, as an identifiable place. A pit, a valley south of Jerusalem, a jail, a grave, a place of torment, or simply a state of being in torment. Virtually all Christians believe hell is a temporary place that will eventually be cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:14)
Some believe that hell and the lake of fire are one and the same place. The lake of fire is only mentioned in the book of Revelation, but it is mentioned five times there. (Rev 19:20; Rev 20:10; Rev 20:14; Rev 20:15; Rev 21:8)

I think it's important to understand these differences whenever we talk about hell.

This is getting to be a long post, so I will stop here. Heaven is next.

 

[B-A-C]

Again with heaven we see a number of different words used,

H8064
שׁמה שׁמים
shâmayim shâmeh
shaw-mah'-yim, shaw-meh'
The second form being dual of an unused singular; from an unused root meaning to be lofty; the sky (as aloft; the dual perhaps alluding to the visible arch in which the clouds move, as well as to the higher ether where the celestial bodies revolve): - air, X astrologer, heaven (-s).

H8065
שׁמין
shâmayin
shaw-mah'-yin
(Chaldee); corresponding to H8064: - heaven.

G3772
οὐρανός
ouranos
oo-ran-os'
Perhaps from the same as G3735 (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension heaven (as the abode of God); by implication happiness, power, eternity; specifically the Gospel (Christianity): - air, heaven ([-ly]), sky.

ὄρος
oros
or'-os
Probably a from an obsolete word ὄρω orō (to rise or “rear”; perhaps akin to G142; compare G3733); a mountain (as lifting itself above the plain): - hill, mount (-ain).

G3770
οὐράνιος
ouranios
oo-ran'-ee-os
From G3772; celestial, that is, belonging to or coming from the sky: - heavenly.

G2032
ἐπουράνιος
epouranios
ep-oo-ran'-ee-os
From G1909 and G3772; above the sky: - celestial, (in) heaven (-ly), high.

One interesting thing about heaven, is that definition H8064 is used over 95% of the time in the OT and definition G3772 is used over 95% of the time in the NT.

Some other words/places that are commonly used with or in place of heaven are Mount Zion, the New Jerusalem, Paradise, Abraham's Bosom, the Kingdom of God, and the Throne of God.
Some Roman Catholics believe it is a gated community to which Peter holds the entrance keys. (Matt 16:19). Most also believe in a place called purgatory.

Again, it's important to understand these differences when talking about heaven. Many different religions and denominations have different ideas about what heaven is, it's amazing the number of different teachings here. In many cases, I'm not sure it matters, but sometimes I think it does.
Now that we got most of the definitions out of the way, which one of these many places do we go to? When? Why do some to one place and others go to another place? Why do some seemingly go immediately and others appear to go later?

1 Thess 4:16 says that Christians will come up out of their graves during the rapture.
A popular Chris Tomlin song says "and I will rise, when he calls my name".
In John 11:24 Martha told Jesus she knew all believers would rise on the last day.
In Matt 27:52 we see that deceased believers got up out of their graves and walked around for a little while. (Did they go back into their graves?)
Eph 5:14 seems to go along with these verses as well (there are many others).

All of those verses seem to contradict the verses below.
In Luke 23:43 Jesus told the thief on the cross "Today, you will be with me in paradise".
Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. (2 Cor 5:8)
In Luke 16 we see the story of Lazarus. Some say this is a parable, but I disagree for two reasons. First Jesus always identified a parable as a parable. (i.e. "and he told them a parable"), the story of Lazarus is never identified as a parable. also in parables Jesus used improper nouns (Jesus, improper, LOL) what I mean is, he didn't use specific names like Mary Peter or James, he always said "a man", or "a farmer" or "a master". In the story of Lazarus he uses specific names for everyone but the "rich man". In the story of Lazarus it appears the Rich man didn't stay in the ground but went directly to hades, and Lazarus didn't stay in the ground but went directly to paradise.
In Eph 4:8 it says Jesus went to ("the lower parts of the earth") and lead the captives free.

There are some more verses along these lines as well.
So which is it? Do we lie in the ground for a while or do we all immediately go to heaven and hell?
I have a some theories and explanations for this.... coming up next.

 

[B-A-C]

The lower parts of the earth. Different levels of heaven and hell.

Depending on what Bible translation you have, Deut 32:22 seems to indicate there are different parts of hell. KJV says "the lowest hell".
Mark 12:40; Luke 20:47; and Matt 23:14 say some will receive greater condemnation, some say this means "a worse or lower part of hell".
2 Cor 12:22 talks about the 3rd heaven. Some say there are different levels of heaven as well.

Ezek 32:24 talks about the "lower parts of the earth" or "the pit". Some translation say the inner or hidden parts of the earth.
When I was a young child watching cartoons hell was often depicted as a place, like a cavern or tunnel under the ground that was full of fire and lava and full of little horned demons with pitch forks and long red tails. Perhaps this is where that idea of hell being under ground came from?
Ezek 26:20 also mentions the lower parts of the earth, the pit.
Finally we have Eph 4:9 which indicates that Jesus himself went down to the "lower parts of the earth".

Some view this as a strictly physical description, (as in there is magma and lava beneath the crust of the earth).
Some view this as a strictly spiritual description of a place that is morally beneath not only heaven but even beneath the standards of the earth.

Php 2:10 talks about those "under the earth". Rev 5:3 mentions this also.

Yet a third theory here is often considered.
Some say sheol was a place (either physical or spiritual) that was in the earth and it shaped something like the letter "T".
There are some scriptures that support this as well. Perhaps the story of Lazarus is the most common.
Hell is one one side (the rich man in torment is on this side) and paradise is on the other side (where Lazarus was) and a steep chasm or abyss is between the two sides so that no one can cross from one side to the other side. If this is true, then many believe that paradise no longer exists.

Some say the "believers" who believed a messiah was coming in the Old testament went to paradise. We see in Hebrews 11 (the faith chapter of the Bible) that
everyone who believed in the promises of God before Jesus came to the earth was a hero of the faith.
In Romans 4:9 we see this faith in God's promises was "counted as righteousness" towards them.
In Mark 12:26-27 we see that Jacob, Isaac and Abraham are not dead, but living. This is repeated in Luke 20:36-38.

So if these saints were "dead" but yet "living", where were they living at?

In sheol, in the lower parts of the earth. Hmmm... but wasn't that where hell and the wicked go?
For a while (on the other side of the "T", Until Jesus died it was. The thief on the cross was the last one to go to Paradise.
These people believe that Jesus went down to paradise and got all of these saints in paradise and took them to heaven with him. (Eph 4:8; Luke 4:18)
This belief says that paradise isn't in the lower parts of the earth anymore, but hell still is there. Not only that, but hell has gotten larger. (Isa 5:14)
maybe it's now occupying the space that paradise used to take up?

Well, this is one theory. I don't know if it's true of not, but it does solve part of the question if it is.

 

[B-A-C]

The Bible says we will all be judged eventually. (Heb 9:27)

Now the wording of the following verses has caused some speculation.

Rev 11:18 "And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth."

Some take this verse to mean to different groups of people. The dead (sinners, un-saved) will be judged. The bond-servants, prophets, saints, and those who fear God will be rewarded. Others take this to be the same event.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

This is also controversial depending on your beliefs. Some say that every thing we've ever done will be revealed from these books.
Most like a modern day courtroom scene. God the father is the judge. Satan is "the accuser of the brethren" (Rev 12:10) or the prosecuting attorney. Jesus is our "advocate, mediator" (1 John 2:1) or the defense attorney (and he has never lost a case). Others say the blood of Jesus covers our sins and they are cast away as far as the east is from west and God remembers them no more. (Psal 103:12; Jer 31:34; Heb 8:12; Heb 10:17)

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.

One interesting thing we see here, both the sea and the earth (remember hades can also mean grave) at the time of the judgement.
At one time, I thought everyone in hell would just simply be thrown into the lake of fire along with hell. As I read the following verses I see this isn't the case.
Hell is thrown into the lake of fire before the sinners an un-believers.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
Rev 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

More controversy....

Obviously we are talking about a time period after the tribulation or after the time of the beast.
Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Yet another argument for a pre-trib rapture here. The thought here is, if we do not go up before the tribulation, we have to be be-headed.
Now this may be the case, but if it is, all of the saints and believers lie in the ground until after the tribulation, AND after the 1,000 year millennial reign.
Because it says the rest of the dead aren't brought back until after this time.

 

[brakelite]

Hello BAC
The question you have asked at the beginning of this thread "what happens when you die?" is possibly the most frequently asked question since creation. It has stretched the minds of philosophers, religionists, and the secular world for centuries, and will continue to do so until Jesus comes. As you have said, there are a great many theories and opinions each with their own variations and having a following or sect to swear to their veracity.
You have taken the only wise choice, to go to the scriptures to find the answers. But I wonder if you have approached the question from the right direction. Perhaps if we consider another perspective we may find greater clarity on the issues of heaven and hell. To find that perspective, may I suggest we go right back to the beginning, for I am convinced that every major doctrine within Christendom has its beginnings in Genesis, and 'what happens when we die?' I believe is no exception.
A more fundamental question offers itself to our contemplation...when created were we created 'immortal' or 'mortal'? Do our lives depend upon outside influence, or are we naturally an eternally existing being? The reason I ask this question is because as I read through scripture, the choice given mankind, in both the OT and New, is not so much a choice between heaven and hell, but one between life and death.
To discover the reason for the entrance of death, the utter dependance upon God for life, (both before and after sin) , and what it means to be given the gift of eternal life upon acceptance of Jesus, ( and perhaps even the reson for 'hell-fire') will go a long way in answering the apparent contradictions one finds when discussing the heaven and hell issues.
Allow me please to offer some tantalising points which may help us discover not just who we are, but also who we are to be.

Paganism throughout its lifetime has as its basis for belief the unquestioning assertion that mankind is naturally immortal. That whether good or bad, man does not, indeed cannot, die. The assertion that in some form or another, death does not bring about the end, but is the beginning of a new life, whether in spirit, or in another form on earth, or as a 'god' as you have so rightly pointed out. Christendom is no less guilty on this score, buying into Satan's lie to Eve, "you shall not surely die". This lie has been preached from nearly every pulpit since, despite the clear teaching of scripture, 'the soul that sinneth, it shall die'. The soul btw is not some seperate entity independant of the body. Again, Genesis reveals that the combination of the body and spirit (the breath) produced a living soul. We were not given a soul, we are souls. Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.


When Adam and Eve were expelled from the garden, God placed a guard at the entrance denying access to the tree of life, in order to explicitly avoid a situation where a sinner may gain immortality by partaking of the tree of life. Thus, for that reason alone, there can be no such thing as an immortal sinner.

Next point, eternal life is a gift granted to us who accept Christ by the grace of God; nowhere in scripture does it even remotely suggest that eternal life is granted to sinners. This eternal life is given to us at the time of our resurrection, not a moment before...and this resurrection takes place at the second coming of Jesus, not at our death.

And finally, the Thessalonians were questioning these very issues when they realised that many of them had since died and Jesus hadn't returned. They were questioning their faith, and asking the very question you were asking at the beginning of this thread. "Our friends and loved ones have died, Jesus hasn't returned, where are they???"

1 Thess. 4:13 ¶ But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Note that Paul never suggested that the Thessalonians take hope in their sleeping brethren being already in heaven, no, no. The hope Paul desired to plant in their minds was of the resurrection at the second coming. Those who are asleep in Christ would not enter glory ahead of the living, all would be brought together at once and be taken to heaven together. The great Christian hope is not to go to heaven immediately upon death, but rather it is the coming resurrection. This was the hope that Paul encouraged his church to comfort one another with.

I am convinced that if we settle the above points in our minds and hearts, then the issue of 'eternal torment' etc cease to be a problem.

 

[Hekuran]

Interesting thread. I've been reading Surprised by Hope by Tom Wright. He argues very convincingly that the church as a whole has taken a wrong turn in its thinking about heaven. Read 1 Corinthians 15 - the essence of Christian hope is resurrection. Paul says that without the hope of resurrection from the dead our faith is useless and we are pitiful.

Paradise is not our final hope. Paradise is an intermediate stage before God's redemption of creation is complete, and we are given glorious resurrection bodies.

Don't have time to develop a full explanation of it right now. But it's well worth looking into.

 

[B-A-C]

I was hoping to get more into things like our bodies...

1 Cor 15:35 But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?"
1 Cor 15:40 There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another.
1 Cor 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
1 Cor 15:44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

2 Pet 1:14 knowing that the laying aside of my earthly dwelling is imminent, as also our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me.

And things like Heaven, Paradise, the New Jerusalem, and reigning on the Earth.

2 Tim2:12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
Rev 5:10 "You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

For example, do some go to heaven?
Do some go to the New Jerusalem, or are they the same place?
Do some rule and reign with Christ? When? During the millennial reign? Forever? From where? Heaven, the earth, New Jerusalem?
Is there a new heaven? Is there a new earth?

Mat 5:3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:5 "Blessed are the gentle, for they shall inherit the earth.
Mat 5:8 "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
Mat 5:9 "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
Mat 5:10 "Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Will there still be physical humans alive after Satan in thrown into the Lake of Fire?
Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.

Who are these people? Where did they come from?

Rev 21:4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."

Rev 22:2 in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

If there is no longer any sickness and death in heaven, who are the nations that need healing above?

Who exactly are we reigning over? Other believers, non-believers?

I certainly don't have all of the answers, but I think we can come up with a few.

 

[B-A-C]

Well, put on your life preservers, it's going to get deep here in a hurry.

The Judgment. No one seems to want to talk about this. It seems you rarely hear it preached in churches these days.
Yet the Bible has many many references to it all throughout scripture. The judgment day is mentioned several times just in the NT.
2 Tim 4:1; Matt 10:15; Matt 11:22; Matt 12:36; Rom 2:5; 2 Pet 2:9; 2 Pet 3:7; 1 John 4:17; Jude 1:6

Jesus does most of the judging here.
John 5:22 "For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son,
John 5:27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.
2 Tim 4:1 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:
2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Now there is some controversy as to when these things will happen. Is it pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib? I hope not to get caught up in that here, because it doesn't matter that much to me, WHEN it happens, only that at at some point it WILL happen. I believe there is some overlap of the time frames below, so I'm not putting them in chronological order, I am simply listing the events.

So first we have the resurrection. The Bible talks about the resurrection of the 'just ' or 'righteous'.
Luke 14:14 and you will be blessed, since they do not have the means to repay you; for you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous."
John 5:28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
John 5:29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
Dan 12:2 "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
John 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,

It also talks about the resurrection of the 'unjust' or 'unrighteous'.
John 5:29 and Daniel 12:2 that are listed above,
Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
Rev 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

The there are some judgments, now again, there may be some overlap here, it may all even be one event.

Judgment of believers works.
1 Cor 3:11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1 Cor 3:12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
1 Cor 3:13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.
1 Cor 3:14 If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.
1 Cor 3:15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

The Judgment of the Gentiles (or the 'Nations')
Joel 3:2 I will gather all the nations And bring them down to the valley of Jehoshaphat. Then I will enter into judgment with them there On behalf of My people and My inheritance, Israel, Whom they have scattered among the nations; And they have divided up My land.

Matt 25:31 "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
Matt 25:32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
Matt 25:33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
Matt 25:34 "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
Matt 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
Matt 25:46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

The Judgment of Israel
Ezek 20:36 "As I entered into judgment with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I will enter into judgment with you," declares the Lord GOD.
Ezek 20:37 "I will make you pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant;
Ezek 20:38 and I will purge from you the rebels and those who transgress against Me; I will bring them out of the land where they sojourn, but they will not enter the land of Israel. Thus you will know that I am the LORD.
Ezek 20:39 "As for you, O house of Israel," thus says the Lord GOD, "Go, serve everyone his idols; but later you will surely listen to Me, and My holy name you will profane no longer with your gifts and with your idols.
Ezek 20:40 "For on My holy mountain, on the high mountain of Israel," declares the Lord GOD, "there the whole house of Israel, all of them, will serve Me in the land; there I will accept them and there I will seek your contributions and the choicest of your gifts, with all your holy things.
Ezek 20:41 "As a soothing aroma I will accept you when I bring you out from the peoples and gather you from the lands where you are scattered; and I will prove Myself holy among you in the sight of the nations.
Ezek 20:42 "And you will know that I am the LORD, when I bring you into the land of Israel, into the land which I swore to give to your forefathers.

What an amazing part of scripture. Some of which was a prophecy fulfilled just over 60 years ago. (1947-1948) When Israel again became a nation.

Judgment of Fallen Angels
Jude 1:6 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,
Jud 1:7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
1 Cor 6:3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more matters of this life?

Now for most of these Judgments, Jesus is the Judge. But it appears that believers will join with Jesus to judge the fallen angels.

The Judgment of non-believers.
Rev 20:11-15

Well, this is getting a little long... to be continued.

 

[Puddleglum]

About the prophecy, when Israel became a nation again ?
Should we turn and go with the Jewish people now, even if they reject Jesus Christ and still do oppose him 100%

One dude who claims to be a Christian and i talk to says that, you should not talk against any Jew at all, because they are the people of god and i should fear them. i say i only fear God, not people at all. this dude is a fundamentalist and has many things in common with the Arab's gods, i say. as he believes he can kill anyone he wants because he is saved, as he believes he can't loose his salvation, so he says repentance is nonsense and he wants to kill every Arab and everyone who opposes the Jew. i think he is some sort of lunatic Nazi idiot. I could say that i am a Hebrew but i don't want him worshiping me, as i only believe in Jesus Christ as my lord and saviour.
I talk about Spiritual Israel as that is the fountain ! and he rejects that totally and says the people are israel and that the Spirit has nothing to do with them. as they are the people of god regardless.
This dude wants WW3 and is pushing for it to come about, but he believes he will be spared due to being ruptured up before it all starts. so he is happily running about trying to start it all, as he is going to escape the pain and wont have to deal with that.

Spiritual Israel is the people lead by the Holy Spirit of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. so when true Israel comes back, it will be lead by Jesus Christ not just foolish carnal men claiming to be Israel.. calling it israel, it is called the 'State of Israel' by Jews but not all Jews say it is "the Israel" as the true orthodox Jews know.
For Christians to say it's "Israel", is a rejection of Jesus Christ !!!

 

[B-A-C]

About the prophecy, when Israel became a nation again ?
Should we turn and go with the Jewish people now, even if they reject Jesus Christ and still do oppose him 100%

One dude who claims to be a Christian and i talk to says that, you should not talk against any Jew at all, because they are the people of god and i should fear them. i say i only fear God, not people at all. ...

... calling it israel, it is called the 'State of Israel' by Jews but not all Jews say it is "the Israel" as the true orthodox Jews know.
For Christians to say it's "Israel", is a rejection of Jesus Christ !!!

On May 14th 1948 Israel declared themselves a nation. (Obviously they were a nation in ancient times).

I think you are both right, in a way we become Jews when we get saved. Rom 4:11; Col 2:11; Rom 9:6
But even so, we are told certain things about the physical nation of Israel. Gen 12:3; Gen 27:29

Most of the current Jews are Orthodox Judaism, but the Bible says a few places that they will come to Christ some day. Heb 8:8-13; Acts 13:23; Rom 9:27; Rom 11:25 (I believe there are a few others, but I need to find them)
Some say the Gentiles will judge the Jews - Luke 22:30. (Obviously the non-Christian Jews)

 

[B-A-C]

Back to the judgment for a moment.

Some believe everything we've ever done will be revealed.
Mark 4:22 "For nothing is hidden, except to be revealed; nor has anything been secret, but that it would come to light.
Luke 8:17 "For nothing is hidden that will not become evident, nor anything secret that will not be known and come to light.
Rom 2:16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
Rom 2:16 (NLT) And this is the message I proclaim—that the day is coming when God, through Christ Jesus, will judge everyone's secret life.

Others believe once our sins are "hidden" by the blood of Jesus, they are forgotten about.
Col 3:3 For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
Psa 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, So far has He removed our transgressions from us.
Heb 8:12 "FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES, AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE."
Heb 10:17 "AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."

So after the judgment, where do we end up?

For the unsaved, unbelievers, the answer is easy.
Rev 20:15; Rev 21:8; Matt 25:41;

For TRUE believers, the answer doesn't seem to be quite as cut and dried.
There are verses that could be taken to mean...
Some will inherit the earth. Some will inherit the Kingdom of God. Some shall see God. Some will be called "sons of God".

Mat 5:3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:4 "Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.
Mat 5:5 "Blessed are the gentle, for they shall inherit the earth.
Mat 5:6 "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.
Mat 5:7 "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.
Mat 5:8 "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
Mat 5:9 "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
Mat 5:10 "Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:11 "Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me.
Mat 5:12 "Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Some will reign with Christ. Some will reign on the earth. Some will reign with Jesus during the millennial reign.
2 Tim 2:12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
Rev 5:10 "You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."

Those who are beheaded during the tribulation will reign with him during the millennial reign.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Some will reign with him forever.
Rev 22:5 And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.

Some will go to the New Jerusalem (Rev 3:12; Rev 21:2)
John 14:2 "In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.
John 14:3 "If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

Now it may be that all of these places are simply another name for heaven. Some argue, and say the New Jerusalem isn't heaven because
Rev 21:2 says it is coming down "out of heaven". Also if some inherit the kingdom of God, and some do not, this is another argument.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Hi BAC,
So far you have covered a lot of material that should be considered in our view of the afterlife.
You have not however yet mentioned some important mainstream Jewish beliefs which are important because many of our present way of seeing things are a mixture of mythology
mixed with philosophy and with some Biblical scripture mixed in.

The idea of an imortal soul for instance is from Greek philosophy.

Titus 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

In Jesus's time the Jews already had problems with the peoples mixing scripture with myths of
the afterlife that they got from the Egyption book of the dead and the myths they picked up during thier captivity in Babylon.

Here is an except from a Jewish site:

What happens after we die? Everyone asks that question at one point or another. Though Judaism does not have a definitive answer, below are some of the possible responses that have emerged over the centuries.


Olam Ha Ba – "Olam Ha Ba" literally means "the world to come" in Hebrew. Early rabbinic texts describe Olam Ha Ba has an idyllic version of this world. It is a physical realm that will exist at the end-of-days, after the Messiah has come and God has judged both the living and the dead. The righteous dead will be resurrected in order to enjoy a second life in Olam Ha Ba. You can learn more about Olam Ha Ba in: "What Is Olam Ha Ba?"

Gehenna - When the ancient rabbis talk about Gehenna, the question they are trying to answer is "How will bad people be dealt with in the afterlife?" Accordingly, they saw Gehenna as a place of punishment for those who lead an immoral life. However, the time a person's soul could spend in Gehenna was limited to twelve months and the rabbis maintained that even at the very Gates of Gehenna a person could repent and avoid punishment (Erubin 19a). After being punished in Gehenna a soul was considered pure enough to enter Gan Eden

Gan Eden – In contrast to Gehenna, Gan Eden was conceived as a paradise for those who lived a righteous life. Whether Gan Eden - which means "The Garden of Eden in Hebrew" - was intended as a place for souls after death or for resurrected people when Olam Ha Ba comes is unclear. Exodus Rabbah 15:7 states, for instance: "In the Messianic Age God will establish peace for the nations and they will sit at ease and eat in Gan Eden." Numbers Rabbah 13:2 makes a similar reference and in both cases, neither souls nor the dead are mentioned. Nevertheless, author Simcha Raphael suggests that given the ancient rabbis' belief in resurrection, Gan Eden was likely a place where they thought the righteous would go after they were resurrected for Olam Ha Ba.

Also keep in mind that the Saducees did not believe in any resurrection or afterlife at all.
I don't support thier views but it is helpful to know and understand why they believe what they do.

Some other things to consider is that he comes to be glorified in us.

2 Thessalonians 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Also:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

It does not say that we go back to heaven with the Lord,it says we will ever be with him.
We are caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
Remember that Satan is the prince of the power of the air so this could refer to conquering Satan's kingdom and the reign of Jesus on the earth.The kingdom of God is within us and the old heavens shall pass away.

Also:
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
We are born from above or heaven,the new creature in Christ comes from heaven and remains in heaven even while physicaly standing on the earth.

Revelation 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

I have never actuall seen anything in scripture that leads me to believe that we are supposed to die to go to heaven.I do see evidence that we are supposed to be born of heaven and recieve life.And to provide an abode for God and the Lamb.

John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
John 17:21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me
John 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

We are supposed to provide evidence to the world that God loved Jesus by our perfection in Christ,not by escaping the world.

 

[B-A-C]

Matt 5:20 "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matt 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

Matt 8:11 "I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven;

Matt 18:3 and said, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Some say the "kingdom of heaven" is more like a membership than a physical place, kind of like being a "member of the animal kingdom" for example.

Others say it is a physical place that believers will go to.
Rev 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;
Rev 7:14 I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Rev 7:15 "For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them.

Matt 19:23 And Jesus said to His disciples, "Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus has been to heaven.
Luke 24:51 While He was blessing them, He parted from them and was carried up into heaven.

But apparently very few, if any others have been there, at least not yet.
John 3:13 "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.
Not even David is in heaven quite yet, but then again, the great judgment ay hasn't happened yet either.
Acts 2:34 "For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: 'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,

There may be a few exceptions.
2 Cor 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago--whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows--such a man was caught up to the third heaven.
2 Kings 2:11 As they were going along and talking, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire and horses of fire which separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven.
Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God. (Gen 5:24)

 

[B-A-C]

There are few things debated more than.. WHEN do believers go to heaven?

Many believe we lie in the ground until we are called up by Jesus.
John 5:28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
John 5:29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
1 Thes 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
1 Thes 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
John 11:24 Martha *said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."

Other believe we go to heaven immediately upon death.
Luke 23:43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."
2 Cor 5:6 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord--
2 Cor 5:8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
One argument to the verses above is... is your spirit absent from the body when you are in the grave?
Joh 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,
Joh 11:26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"
Some take these verses to mean, our spirit does not go into a "suspended animation" mode, but it goes directly to heaven.
Then of course, there is the story of Lazarus.
Luke 16:22 "Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
Luke 16:23 "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.

Some Bibles call this place "paradise", some call it "the bosom of Abraham" but is this place heaven?

 

[B-A-C]

I would like to go off on a bit of a tangent here, and talk about Mount Zion.

You might be thinking what does Mount Zion have to do with heaven or the afterlife? Well, maybe more than you might think.
Mount Zion and the New Jerusalem are seemingly used interchangeably in certain parts of scripture. More about that later.

The first time we hear of Zion it is fort of sorts inhabited by the Jebusites. (2 Sam 5:6-7)
The physical Mount Zion is a hill that inside the current Jerusalem city, but back in Biblical times, when Jerusalem was much smaller, it likely would
have been outside the city gates. Sometimes it is simply called Zion. The word Zion appears 163 times in the Bible. The words Mount Zion together
only 23 times.
Psalms 9:11; Psalms 76:2; Psalms 132:13; Isaiah 8:18 ; Jer 8:19; Jer 31:6; Joel 3:16-17; Joel 3:21; say his dwelling place is there.
Isa 28:16 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a tested stone, A costly cornerstone for the foundation, firmly placed. He who believes in it will not be disturbed. Also see Rom 9:33 and 1 Pet 2:6
We know the Temple mount on Zion was destroyed. But it was prophesied that it would be rebuilt. Zec 8:3; Zec 2:10; Micah 4:7

So what does all this have to do with anything?
Rev 14:1 says that Jesus and 144,000 (Jews) will stand on Mount Zion
Heb 12:22 talks about either several places or one place which may be the New Jerusalem.
Psalms 3:4; Psalms 2:6; Ezek 20:40; Dan 9:20; Joel 2:1; Zec 8:3 talk about a Holy Mountain (there are other verses also)
Isaiah 27:13 talks about the Jews who are in Assyria and Egypt coming back to worship at his Holy Mountain.
If you believe the being talked about Ezek 28 is Satan, then he also dwelt there at one time.

So the thought here is, if Mount Zion is in Jerusalem, and the Lord has dwelt there, and will dwell there again some day...
Could this be where the New Jerusalem will be?

More about the New Jerusalem coming up.

 

[B-A-C]

The New Jerusalem.

Salem means peace. Melchizedek was the King of Salem, which could be an actual city, or it could be, King of peace.
Jehovah shalom, or Jehovah-salem means God of peace.
Jeru means new. So Jerusalem mean "new peace". Ironically, I think very few cities have seen less peace than Jerusalem.
New Jerusalem means new-new peace.

Virtually everything we know about the New Jerusalem is in Revelation 21.
It will come down out of heaven from God. verse 2
It will be among men, most likely resting on the face of the earth. verse 3.
It will look something like a crystal clear jewel. verse 11.
It will have 12 gates, with 12 angels guarding them. Each gate will be named after one of the 12 tribes of Israel. verse 12.
Each of the 4 sides of the city will have three gates each. verse 13.
It will have 12 foundation stones, each stone will be named after one of the 12 apostles. verse 14.

It will be a square city. 1500 miles long by 1500 miles wide by 1500 miles tall. (2400 by 2400 by 2400 kilometers) verse 16.
This is a HUGE city city. To put this in perspective, draw a line from Bismarck North Dakota, to Salt Lake City, to San Antonio, then to Indianapolis, then back to Bismarck.
This bigger than the state of Alaska. This is roughly the size of the continent of Australia!!! One city!!! Now imagine it being 1500 miles tall!!!!
The tallest mountain on the earth is Mt. Everest, which is about 6 miles high or 8800 meters. To further put this in perspective, the diameter of the earth is slightly less than 8000 miles or about 12,700 kilometers. There is some speculation about whether it will be a square cube shape, or mountain shaped something like a pyramid. Either way, this is a huge structure.

It has a wall around it, 72 yards ?? 72 yards tall? Yards thick? Some Bible translations say it is the thickness. verse 17.
This wall is made out of a clear crystal, and the city itself is made of "pure gold". verse 18.
The 12 gates are made out of 12 pearls, each gate is one single (I would assume very large) pearl. verse 21.
There is at least one street in the city, it is made of gold also. verse 21.
There is no temple within it. Because God and the Lamb are it's temple. verse 22.
The city doesn't need the sun or the moon to light it, because the Glory of God and the Lamb illuminate it. verse 23.

This continues on into Revelation 22.

There is a river of life as clear as crystal flowing from the throne of God and the Lamb. (22 verse 1)
The throne of God appears to be in the middle of the street. verse 1.
On either side of the river, there was a tree of life. Bearing 12 kinds of fruit. Yielding its fruit monthly. (some have speculated that each month will have a different fruit).
and the leaves of this tree were for the healing of the nations. verse 3.
It also says his bond-servants will serve him here. verse 3.

Many believe that John 14:2-3 are talking about the New Jerusalem. If so, this city will have many houses (King James says mansions) in it.

There will apparently be people outside the city that are unable to enter in to it. Rev 21:27; and Rev 22:15 .
We also don't know where exactly on the earth it will be. Some have speculated that it might float above the earth . (Which might make sense if it is the light of the earth).
Others say it will sit upon the face of the earth. One thought is that it will sit in an area occupying current day Israel, Arabia, Syria,and Iraq.
This comes from the verses below.

Gen 15:18 On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, "To your descendants I have given this land, From the river of Egypt as far as the great river, the river Euphrates:
Exod 23:31 "I will fix your boundary from the Red Sea to the sea of the Philistines, and from the wilderness to the River Euphrates; for I will deliver the inhabitants of the land into your hand, and you will drive them out before you.
Deut 11:24 "Every place on which the sole of your foot treads shall be yours; your border will be from the wilderness to Lebanon, and from the river, the river Euphrates, as far as the western sea.

The Euphrates river is in current day Iraq and Syria. Israel has never claimed these lands in their existence.

Next.. the church. The bride of Christ.

 

[B-A-C]

Apparently, there is going to be a wedding feast there. It's possible the New Jerusalem could have a dining hall over 1,000 miles long!! If so, it could hold a 'few' guests. It sounds like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are on the invitation list.

Matt 22:2 "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son.
Matt 22:3 "And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come.

Matt 8:11 "I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven;
Luke 12:37 "Blessed are those slaves whom the master will find on the alert when he comes; truly I say to you, that he will gird himself to serve, and have them recline at the table, and will come up and wait on them.
Luke 13:29 "And they will come from east and west and from north and south, and will recline at the table in the kingdom of God.

Rev 3:20 'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

Matt 25:10 "And while they were going away to make the purchase, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut.

Rev 19:9 Then he *said to me, "Write, 'Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.'" And he *said to me, "These are true words of God."
Rev 19:17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, "Come, assemble for the great supper of God,

When a couple get married, it is generally accepted and even expected that they wll live together.
And so it is with the bride of Christ.

Rev 19:7 "Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready."

Some say this isn't necessarily the New Jerusalem, but the Bible says it is.

Rev 21:9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and spoke with me, saying, "Come here, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb."
Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God,

Rev 22:17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.

Now of course we humans as individuals will no longer be married in heaven. ( Matt 22:30; Mark 12:25; Luke 20:35 )

Eph 5:24 But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her,
Eph 5:26 so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,
Eph 5:27 that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.
Eph 5:28 So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself;
Eph 5:29 for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church,
Eph 5:30 because we are members of His body.
Eph 5:31 FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH.
Eph 5:32 This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church.

 

[Puddleglum]

On May 14th 1948 Israel declared themselves a nation. (Obviously they were a nation in ancient times).

I think you are both right, in a way we become Jews when we get saved. Rom 4:11; Col 2:11; Rom 9:6
But even so, we are told certain things about the physical nation of Israel. Gen 12:3; Gen 27:29

Most of the current Jews are Orthodox Judaism, but the Bible says a few places that they will come to Christ some day. Heb 8:8-13; Acts 13:23; Rom 9:27; Rom 11:25 (I believe there are a few others, but I need to find them)
Some say the Gentiles will judge the Jews - Luke 22:30. (Obviously the non-Christian Jews)

I would not say we become Jews at all, when we become a true Christian, but an Israel. remember why Jacob became Israel ?
As it is in the name Israel, it is about who he became, him self and why it is so.

The tribe of Israel is only just, that. a tribe, and all in that tribe are only just that. but they all are not an Israel them self's as only they who rise to that standard are to be regarded as a person of God. but the rest of them do not all rise to that standard.
It's like one saying you are a Christian, because you were baptised into it. as they are only capible of milk and they have a hope, but are not one in a position of greatness in the Spirit, like the name Israel was bestowed on by the Angel. for a reason.

The week in the Spirit have little hope of defence against Satan's works, just see as to why our tribe of Israel fell and Judea.
Now this would not of happened if the majority were a strong Spiritual Israel, would they ? but the "tribe" went away from God and fell because of it. but never will a person who is a true Israel disobey God.

Just look at Christianity today it has failed, as we have lost control of our nations. why because it has been corrupted by people who are not of the true Holy Spirit in Jesus Christ, our Lord and saviour. they have not ears, so they have came down to Idolatry. and that is the same reason why the "tribe of Israel" fell.

I say that people who call themselves Jew are not Israel at all, but one day as the Bible says, they will be. when the two sticks come together. they will see the Light and become true Israel Christians.

The Jew should of called there state Judea, not Israel at all ! because the true Orthodox Hebrews know it is not Israel at all.
I was of the opinion like that of Hebrew Orthodox, that most Jews in the State were a rag tag mob of reprobate. just like our Christian nations falling for devilish demonic idolatry.

 

[B-A-C]

The week in the Spirit have little hope of defence against Satan's works, just see as to why our tribe of Israel fell and Judea.
Now this would not of happened if the majority were a strong Spiritual Israel, would they ? but the "tribe" went away from God and fell because of it. but never will a person who is a true Israel disobey God.

Just look at Christianity today it has failed, as we have lost control of our nations. why because it has been corrupted by people who are not of the true Holy Spirit in Jesus Christ, our Lord and saviour. they have not ears, so they have came down to Idolatry. and that is the same reason why the "tribe of Israel" fell.

Hmmm... I would think that the "real" nation of Israel disobeyed and turned away from God over and and over again all through the Old Testament. He kept turning them back to him. Even now most of Israel is turned away, but God will turn them back eventually. Rom 11:7; 2 Cor 3:14; John 12:40.

Christianity is failing? What do you base this on? There are more Christians on the earth right now than at any time in history.
We Americans seem to think that just because the USA is turning away from God, then everyone else must be. This isn't true at all.
Some nations are having incredible times of revival.

 

[B-A-C]

A new name, a new body, and maybe a crown.

It seems we get a new name in heaven.
Isa 62:2 The nations will see your righteousness, And all kings your glory; And you will be called by a new name Which the mouth of the LORD will designate.

Rev 2:17 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, to him I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him
a white stone, and a new name written on the stone which no one knows but he who receives it.'

Also Jesus has a name that will be written on us.
Rev 3:12 'He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name.

Rev 22:4 they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads.

Rev 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.

Finally, it looks like we get a new body.
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.

2 Cor 5:1 For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 Cor 5:2 For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,
2 Cor 5:3 inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked.
2 Cor 5:4 For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.

1 Cor 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
1 Cor 15:43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;

1 Cor 15:47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.
1 Cor 15:48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly.
1 Cor 15:49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.
1 Cor 15:50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
1 Cor 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
1 Cor 15:53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1 Cor 15:54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.

Php 3:21 who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

Finally some of us, perhaps those who 'overcome', will be given a crown in heaven.
Rev 2:10 'Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
Rev 3:11 'I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown.
Jas 1:12 Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.
1 Pet 5:4 And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory.

Jesus also has a crown with a secret name on it.
Rev 19:12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself.

The 24 elders. We don't know a lot about them or who they are.
Rev 4:4 Around the throne were twenty-four thrones; and upon the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white garments, and golden crowns on their heads.
Rev 4:10 the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
Rev 5:8 When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
Rev 11:16 And the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God,
Rev 19:4 And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who sits on the throne saying, "Amen. Hallelujah!"

I mentioned a street of gold in a previous post, then I ran across the verse today, I couldn't help but feel they may be related.
Isa 35:8 A highway will be there, a roadway, And it will be called the Highway of Holiness. The unclean will not travel on it, But it will be for him who walks that way, And fools will not wander on it.
Isa 35:9 No lion will be there, Nor will any vicious beast go up on it; These will not be found there. But the redeemed will walk there,
Isa 35:10 And the ransomed of the LORD will return And come with joyful shouting to Zion, With everlasting joy upon their heads. They will find gladness and joy, And sorrow and sighing will flee away.