What does Jesus mean when he says

[Barny]

Just like the Father clothed the Prodigal Son with the best robe , the Father has clothed us with Christ as His best robe to cover us. This is accomplished fact in the spiritual realm.

Amen!

The Spirit is not just a power for healing or miracles or other things like this. The Spirit is within you as the Spirit of life, to cause you to walk in God's commandments and sanctify you, so that you may have life to the full.

What do you mean by "walk in God's commandments"?

It's clear that in this physical life nobody is keeping the 10 commandments perfectly, as the law requires.
And this physical part of us is already dead (by faith) because of sin, Rom 8:10, so we shouldn't see it's actions as evidence of righteousness.

And how were we sanctified? It's not by keeping the commandments. Heb 10:10 tells us how.
Heb 10:10
we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all

When God says "Go and sin no more", He means what He says. It is wrong for the Christian to try not to sin in their own strength, which is possible by human will power alone (e.g. Buddhists and other religions practice this, as did Adam and Abel and other Old Testament folk).

Scripture confirms that all the world is guilty before God, under the law, Rom 3:19.
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God

Some Christians have twisted this verse around and say there is no condemnation if you believe in Christ, no matter what you do or say. It doesn't say that, it says there is no condemnation if you are "in Christ", which is not just believing, it is walking in the Spirit day by day. Some think we can steal, cheat, lie, as much as we like but because we believed in Jesus , God doesn't "see" our sins and in His sight we are righteous and holy. Some have twisted this around to say that if our inward righteousness is OK (by faith in Christ), God doesn't care about outward practical righteousness. That is not how it is, this is in effect doing away with the law. God judges us by our outward/practical righteousness, what things we do, what comes out of our heart, our spoken words, not just by what we believe. The law has not been done away with, it is still in effect and God will use it to judge all mankind. What has been done away with is the keeping of the law in our own strength, and God has given us His Spirit : Ezek 36:27 "And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules."

The thief on the cross who called Jesus "Lord" was saved without any consideration of his physical behavior/lifestyle. It was grace alone.

But you're adding works of the law to grace, with your claim that we're judged by the law. You still charge Christians with sin.

But, Rom 8:33 says otherwise.
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

 

[james1523]

What do you mean by "walk in God's commandments"?

It's clear that in this physical life nobody is keeping the 10 commandments perfectly, as the law requires.
And this physical part of us is already dead (by faith) because of sin, Rom 8:10, so we shouldn't see it's actions as evidence of righteousness.

And how were we sanctified? It's not by keeping the commandments. Heb 10:10 tells us how.
Heb 10:10
we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all

Actually the 10 commandments are a summary of the Mosaic Law which God has never required Gentile believers to keep (Acts 15). For Christians we are not to even try to keep the 10 commandments (they are the letter written in stone) but we do keep the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus (Rom 8:2). Sanctification in Christ is an accomplished fact. But in experience sanctification is a work of the Holy Spirit (not our own effort) over a lifetime and is related to keeping the law of the Spirit of life. The Spirit works to separate us from the worldly things in our heart and mind, over time. But the Spirit needs our cooperation, we need to live and walk in the Spirit and give Him the room to work. We are sanctified (from sin), and we are being sanctified (unto God).

Scripture confirms that all the world is guilty before God, under the law, Rom 3:19.
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God

The thief on the cross who called Jesus "Lord" was saved without any consideration of his physical behavior/lifestyle. It was grace alone.

Amen.

But you're adding works of the law to grace, with your claim that we're judged by the law. You still charge Christians with sin.

But, Rom 8:33 says otherwise.
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Romans 8:33 is speaking about the accuser of the brethren. It is not saying that God does not charge Christians with sin. The "Who" in that verse, is the accusers of the brethren.

The bible says we must all (Christians), be judged by Christ for the things done in the body, good or bad:
2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

God judges a Christian's lifestyle and faithfulness to Him in this life and/or in the next (1 Cor 11:31-32). Not for salvation, but for reward or punishment (Luke 12:41-48). In that sense, God does judge the sins of Christians. Examples are those became ill or died after not discerning the body and blood of the Lord.. and the husband and wife who lied to the Holy Spirit, and died at the apostle's feet. Are you saying these believers who God judged in the flesh, had no sin? It was because of their sin, that God judged them. And here in Rev 2:5 is a church that needs to repent of its sin, or Christ will remove its lampstand (destroy it):

"Remember the height from which you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place."

Rom 14:10 ...we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

 

[papajim]

Seems to me that the law (ten commandments) is being misunderstood here it appears that it is being looked at as a set of rules that can or cannot be obeyed. I thinked it needs to be looked differently than the way the people on this site has been debating over. It is not just a set of rules without meaning it has a foundation that gives it power the power to show our selfishess and our need for selflessness. It is broken up into two catagories the first four pertain to God the last six pertain to our fellow man. The first four has to be practice before we can fulfill the last six.

We know that God is love we also know that the law is of God so it must also be about love. If this is true then the foundation of the law is love. Remember that the two laws given us were to Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, an the second is love thy nieghbor as thyself. When we exept Jesus into our hearts a transformation begins to take place, we are learning to truly love, I hope all of you have already expierenced this. When Christ lives in us we become transformed into the likeness of Christ this is what perfects us so that the law is kept. Jesus taught the deep meaning of the law that it meant more than "Thou shall not Kill, or steal, or commit adultry, ect... this is all an outward action of what is already in the heart. Jesus said if we even look at a woman with lust we have already commited adultry in our hearts. Sin begins in the heart the act is only an extension of what is in our hearts. When Jesus is in the heart then love is the extension of Christ.

Stealing from our neighbor is not loving them, neither is killing them, or coveting your neighbors wife. All of this is based on selfishnes or sinful flesh, that is what sinful flesh is selfishness. Chirst is selfless.

When we look at the law in this way it should take out all of the debating and arguing. The same texts and arguing is taking place in a number of threads on this site. Let the love of Christ reign in our hearts and that is the fulfilling of the law.

 

[B-A-C]

Stealing from our neighbor is not loving them, neither is killing them, or coveting your neighbors wife. All of this is based on selfishnes or sinful flesh, that is what sinful flesh is selfishness. Chirst is selfless.

When we look at the law in this way it should take out all of the debating and arguing. The same texts and arguing is taking place in a number of threads on this site. Let the love of Christ reign in our hearts and that is the fulfilling of the law.

I think you hit the nail on the head here.
Jesus doesn't want us to be under a list of rules and regulations. He just wants us to love one another. Rom 13:9;
He doesn't want us to do this under compulsion because we feel like it's something we HAVE to do. If we have Christ in us, and we are lead by his Spirit, it's something we should
want to do. John 13:35;
The commandments were just guidelines to say "this is how you love your neighbor" and if you aren't doing this, then you are sinning.
As important as loving our neighbor is, keep in mind this is secondary to loving God. Matt 22:36-38

 

[james1523]

Amen. You have just paraphrased Jeremiah 31:33-35 and 2 Cor 3:3 You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

Christians are not under the written law of Moses, nor under an unwritten law of humanistic morals (human moral sense of right and wrong). According to Romans 8, the law of the Spirit will regulate a person's living from the heart, and cause them to walk in a way that pleases Him. It is not about whether we keep the commandments written in stone or not, it is about whether we are walking in the Spirit or in the flesh. This law is like a seed planted in our heart which grows in the soil of our heart and causes us (over time) to bear the right kind of fruit. This law enables us to have inner and outer practical righteousness (a clean heart, and also right actions). We will be judged by God for what we have done in the body (believer's judgement), not for salvation, but for reward or punishment. So it is in our interest to have a clean heart and right actions by walking in the Spirit so we may be pleasing to the Lord at His return.

 

[Barny]

Sanctification in Christ is an accomplished fact. But in experience sanctification is a work of the Holy Spirit (not our own effort) over a lifetime and is related to keeping the law of the Spirit of life. The Spirit works to separate us from the worldly things in our heart and mind, over time. But the Spirit needs our cooperation, we need to live and walk in the Spirit and give Him the room to work. We are sanctified (from sin), and we are being sanctified (unto God).

Hi James 1523,

Why say "BUT" after saying that our "Sanctification in Christ is an accomplished fact" ?
It was Christ's one offering that sanctified us, Heb 10:10. Scripture shows there is no "Buts" with more to be added to this.

Whilst God is working in our lives, this is not sanctification unto God.

Romans 8:33 is speaking about the accuser of the brethren. It is not saying that God does not charge Christians with sin. The "Who" in that verse, is the accusers of the brethren.

I agree, Satan is the accuser.
Rev 12:9,10
So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.

The bible says we must all (Christians), be judged by Christ for the things done in the body, good or bad:
2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

The "good or bad" 2Cor 5:10 speaks of is "good" being, believing in Jesus, or "bad" which is, establishing your own righteousness/rebellion against God.

God judges a Christian's lifestyle and faithfulness to Him in this life and/or in the next (1 Cor 11:31-32). Not for salvation, but for reward or punishment (Luke 12:41-48). In that sense, God does judge the sins of Christians.

1Cor 11:31,32 is not speaking of lifestyle/behavior.
Note 1Cor 11:29 speaking of "damnation" if you don't discern the Lord's body. This is speaking of mixing works of the law with grace. That is eating the bread and drinking of the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, not discerning the Lord's body. It's also described as fornication in other scriptures.

Scriptures confirms Christians have "ceased from sin", 1Pet 4:1, "cannot sin", 1John 3:9. If we remain in Christ, that is our standing.

And here in Rev 2:5 is a church that needs to repent of its sin, or Christ will remove its lampstand (destroy it):
"Remember the height from which you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place."

Scriptures has many such warnings to those within the churches. But it speaks to those who say they're believers but are mixing grace with works of the law.

Note Rev 2:4-
Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent. But this you have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.”’

What was our first works?
Believe in Jesus.

What was our first love?
Believe in Jesus.

How do we overcome?
1John 5:4,5
For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God

Rom 14:10 ...we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Yes, and we shall all give an account of ourselves to God, Rom 10:12.
Did we believe God's promise, believing in Jesus?
OR
Did we turn back to unbelief, seeking to establish our own righteousness?

The sin the world is convicted of is unbelief in Jesus, John 16:9

 

[james1523]

When we are first saved.. is our problem with swearing fixed? Lustful thoughts? Pride? Anger? love for money, fame, recognition?etc.. Usually not. Over time the Holy Spirit will sanctify , set apart from the world unto God. This is sanctification in experience. It is a work of God over time. We are sanctified (when first saved, separated from the world as children of God), and we are being sanctified (to clean up our lives and free us from life of self and sin). It is a sanctification, a separation from the world, unto God, so that we may be a vessel of honor fit for the Master's use.

Eating and drinking whilst not discerning the Lord's body was a glutinous and disrespectful behavior, that resulted in many to be sick or die due to God's temporal punishment.

2 Cor 5:10 says done, not believe. The things done in the body. That is actions, lifestyle, attitudes.. whether we have pleased the Lord, by our outward actions and words. Do we bear fruit? Fruit is something seen by others. God cares about what we look like on the outside. From Adam and Eve until now, God has always judged a person by their actions, and what comes out of their heart in words. Faith is belief in action. God will examine our fruit , our actions, whether it is good or bad. God cares that we bear fruit, and He cares that we show we are His disciples. Merely believing it to be so, when it really is not in practice, is not what the bible teaches:

John 15:8: This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

 

[DHC]

Amen!
What do you mean by "walk in God's commandments"?

It's clear that in this physical life nobody is keeping the 10 commandments perfectly, as the law requires.
And this physical part of us is already dead (by faith) because of sin, Rom 8:10, so we shouldn't see it's actions as evidence of righteousness.

And how were we sanctified? It's not by keeping the commandments. Heb 10:10 tells us how.
Heb 10:10
we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all

Hello Barny.

I know where Christians fall into the trap of believing that they must
obey the ten commandments to be a good Christian. That they must obey
these commands to be sanctified, Jesus and the ten commandments?

They read a Jewish Gospel such as Matthew and absorb the commandments
Jesus mentions as the fabric of the Christian life. They are oblivious to the
fact that the law was given to the nation of Israel. Nor, do they understand
that Jesus amplified the laws so that no one would be under the impression
that obedience to the law was possible. One does not need to ponder a
commandment for too long before one realizes that the flesh cannot obey.

For example,

27 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’
28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed
adultery with her in his heart. (Matthew 5, NKJV)

As a Christian or a non Christian this commandment alone has ruled out most males from
any hope of true obedience. But this is the very point of the law, to impose the death
sentence. Obedience to the law is impossible, it is a work of the flesh.

Our salvation is only in Jesus Christ, He is our Justification and our Sanctification.
Jesus fulfilled the law and the prophets for the Jews absolutely. We Gentiles are
grafted into Christ's act of reconciliation. The law is death, the Spirit is life.

 

[Barny]

When we are first saved.. is our problem with swearing fixed? Lustful thoughts? Pride? Anger? love for money, fame, recognition?etc.. Usually not. Over time the Holy Spirit will sanctify , set apart from the world unto God. This is sanctification in experience.

This alleged process "in experience" of sanctification you speak of, is not supported in scripture.

Whilst we often see improvements in a Christian's behavior, that is not referred to as "sanctification" in scripture.

we are being sanctified (to clean up our lives and free us from life of self and sin).

You speak of Christians sinning and having to be cleaned up by a process. This is not supported in scripture.
To say Christians "sin" is to be judging/accusing them of transgressing the law, 1John 3:4.
But scripture confirms we're not under the law, Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:25, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9.
And where there's no law there is no transgression/Sin, Rom 4:15

And Christians have been cleansed by the blood of Christ. So why would we then call unclean what God has cleansed?

Only "past" sin was dealt with at the cross, Rom 3:25. Once in Christ we've "ceased from sin", 1Pet 4:1, "cannot sin", 1john 3:9.
So why then say/accuse Christians "sin" when we've been totally cleansed of all past sin and being/abiding in Christ (1John 3:6) and we "cannot sin" (1John 3:9) ? We've been cleansed by the blood of Christ, so how can we be dirty again?

2 Cor 5:10 says done, not believe. The things done in the body. That is actions, lifestyle, attitudes.. whether we have pleased the Lord, by our outward actions and words. Do we bear fruit? Fruit is something seen by others. God cares about what we look like on the outside. From Adam and Eve until now, God has always judged a person by their actions, and what comes out of their heart in words. Faith is belief in action. God will examine our fruit , our actions, whether it is good or bad. God cares that we bear fruit, and He cares that we show we are His disciples. Merely believing it to be so, when it really is not in practice, is not what the bible teaches:

John 15:8: This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

You see "things done in the body" as physical behavior, when reading 2Cor 5:10. This shows your belief that Christians still sin and are yet in the process of sanctification. Unfortunately none of this is supported in scripture. I guess we'll just have to disagree here.

You incorrectly claim that John 15:8 speaks of physical behavior, implying that Christians are still unclean (sinners) after they receive Christ, and are still in need of a process of cleansing/sanctifying.
As John 15:8 says we should bear much fruit to confirm we're his disciples, how much fruit (good behavior) do you suggest we need to show?
And what of the thief on the cross who called Jesus "Lord"? He had no good behavior at all to show as fruit. How did he get to be with Jesus in paradise without any so called good behavior fruit to show for himself?

With all respect, I ask such questions to highlight how such doctrines contradict the gospel of grace.

 

[james1523]

Barny, I am not aware of any Christian, after salvation, who has not sinned after salvation, or is perfect at the moment of conversion. And so, we all need this continual washing of the water of the Word, and sanctification of the Holy Spirit. You say we cannot sin and have not sinned. But the bible says 1 John 1:8, if we claim to have no sin, we are deceived, and the truth is not in us. And the Lord taught us to pray in the Lord's prayer.. "forgive us our sins", so yes we still sin day by day. But the Lord does not forgive us our sins, unless we confess our sins (1 John 1:9).

At salvation, the Lord comes to live inside us. But we still need to be in the Lord. Our heart, mind, attitude, emotions and will, needs to be in the Lord. The Lord specifically instructs us to "abide in Him". This is not automatic after conversion, but a life of denying our self and turning to Him. The Lord is in us, but we also need to be in the Lord. Much depends on us abiding in the Lord, including whether or not our prayers are answered: John 15:7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.

Let me say that the John 3:6 you quote, is conditional on us abiding in Christ. Which is what Paul means when he tells us to walk in the Spirit. It is correct that Christians do not sin and have no sin, but only when they are abiding in Christ. "Abiding in Christ" is the same as Paul says "walking in the Spirit". I think this is the point you are missing here. It is possible for a Christian to live according to the sinful nature by minding the things of the flesh and not the things of the Spirit. Rom 8:13 For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,
So the Christian has the choice between life and death, flesh or spirit.

 

[DHC]

Barny, I am not aware of any Christian, after salvation, who has not sinned after salvation, or is perfect at the moment of conversion. And so, we all need this continual washing of the water of the Word, and sanctification of the Holy Spirit. You say we cannot sin and have not sinned. But the bible says 1 John 1:8, if we claim to have no sin, we are deceived, and the truth is not in us. And the Lord taught us to pray in the Lord's prayer.. "forgive us our sins", so yes we still sin day by day. But the Lord does not forgive us our sins, unless we confess our sins (1 John 1:9).

At salvation, the Lord comes to live inside us. But we still need to be in the Lord. Our heart, mind, attitude, emotions and will, needs to be in the Lord. The Lord specifically instructs us to "abide in Him". This is not automatic after conversion, but a life of denying our self and turning to Him. The Lord is in us, but we also need to be in the Lord. Much depends on us abiding in the Lord, including whether or not our prayers are answered: John 15:7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.

Let me say that the John 3:6 you quote, is conditional on us abiding in Christ. Which is what Paul means when he tells us to walk in the Spirit. It is correct that Christians do not sin and have no sin, but only when they are abiding in Christ. "Abiding in Christ" is the same as Paul says "walking in the Spirit". I think this is the point you are missing here. It is possible for a Christian to live according to the sinful nature by minding the things of the flesh and not the things of the Spirit. Rom 8:13 For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,
So the Christian has the choice between life and death, flesh or spirit.

Hello James1523.

Barny is simply pushing the Gospel of Jesus Christ to its obvious conclusion.

Romans 10:9 (NKJV)
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has
raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

God is responsible for our salvation, justification and sanctification. It is the power of God
that works through us which the apostles attested to. So logically if you really believe
the Gospel then you are saved. If you continue to believe then you have endured to the
end.

If you truly believe in Jesus you will be sanctified and have already been sanctified.
One who believes in Jesus is saved, that means they are already seated in the
heavenly realms with Christ. There is no minimum standard of human behavior
that could be used as a measure of ones holiness.

It is really all about Jesus Christ and His immense love for us that is the reflection
that we possess. That is why we are thankful James1523, because God has
guaranteed our salvation. How do we know this is true;

Romans 10:9 (NKJV)
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has
raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

These are the words of God Himself, just believe in Jesus.

By the way James 1523, if you are living by the sinful nature then you
do not really believe in Jesus. The two conditions are mutually exclusive.

A good tree does not bear rotten fruit!

 

[james1523]

Of course there is God's side and there is our side. You have described God's side. Then this is our side, and this is a judgement of how believers lived their life:

2 Cor 5:9 says So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

Hebrews 3 is a good read. and Hebrews 4. "Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it."

This is warnings spoken to the the believers, to the brethren.

Salvation is very much like the Israelites coming out of Egypt, but they still had to make it to the promised land. Just because they didn't make it to the promised land does not mean they were not children of God nor saved out of Egypt. Their disobedience meant many did not make it to the promised land. It is the same for Christians. We must aim to obey the Lord so we can enter into the New Jerusalem. I'm afraid a gospel that says if you believe in Jesus you automatically reach the promised land, and your actions don't matter, this is not the complete revelation of the bible nor what early Christians believed (if we care to study what the early church believed).

 

[Barny]

Of course there is God's side and there is our side. You have described God's side. Then this is our side,

You incorrectly view "our side".
What is our side?
It's the same as "God's side"
So we don't judge Christians by their physical behavior. The thief on the cross wasn't judged according to how good a life he lived, so why should we?
How should we view our physical side that you claim we're judged by?
Rom 8:10
if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin,

Gal 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

2Cor 5:16,17
Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation;

So why would we focus on the dead, by faith, physical side? It's dead!
Look instead at the new creation in Christ. I no longer live but Christ lives in me.
Christians abide in Christ, 1John 3:6 and in him there is no sin, 1John 3:5.

2 Cor 5:9 says So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
Hebrews 3 is a good read. and Hebrews 4. "Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it.".

When reading Heb 3 and 4 we see that's it's because of unbelief that Israel failed to enter in to His rest.

Note the following scriptures on falling short, which is unbelief.
Heb 12:15,16
looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled; lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright.

Gal 5:4
You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

And how do we please him?
Heb 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please Him,

1John 3:22,23
And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

Believe in Jesus.

Salvation is very much like the Israelites coming out of Egypt, but they still had to make it to the promised land. Just because they didn't make it to the promised land does not mean they were not children of God nor saved out of Egypt. Their disobedience meant many did not make it to the promised land. It is the same for Christians. We must aim to obey the Lord so we can enter into the New Jerusalem. I'm afraid a gospel that says if you believe in Jesus you automatically reach the promised land, and your actions don't matter, this is not the complete revelation of the bible nor what early Christians believed (if we care to study what the early church believed).

What you say here contradicts Jesus' own words to the thief on the cross.
That thief had absolutely no good behavior to offer, yet Jesus said to him that today he will be with him in paradise.

Anyone who adds the good behavior doctrines to the gospel of grace, God calls for them to repent.
You can't mix grace with works of the law, Rom 11:6. This is being lukewarm if you do, Rev 3;16, and God calls for such persons to repent or else.

 

[Barny]

Barny, I am not aware of any Christian, after salvation, who has not sinned after salvation, or is perfect at the moment of conversion.

We're both seeing this from very different angles. Hopefully I can clear this up.
You are correct that in the physical we won't see any perfection at all.

But when scriptures say Christians have "ceased from sin", 1Pet 4:1 and "cannot sin", 1John 3:9, etc, it is not referring to the physical part of us.

But it's dead, by faith, anyway, Rom 8:10.
So we now no longer regard anyone according to the flesh, as we're a new creation, 2Cor 5:16.

And so, we all need this continual washing of the water of the Word, and sanctification of the Holy Spirit.

Why would we be continually washing what is dead (by faith)? That is not who we are anymore. We're a new creation in Christ, now.

You say we cannot sin and have not sinned. But the bible says 1 John 1:8, if we claim to have no sin, we are deceived, and the truth is not in us.

If you read 1John 1 from the beginning you will see it's evangelical context.
It declares eternal life so that others may have fellowship with the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ.
Verse 6 even speaks of these who say they have fellowship with him, but walk in darkness (without Christ).

So 1John 1:8 is referring to those in sin of unbelief (John 16:9).

Also, if you consider 1John 3:6-9 you'll find it says Christians cannot sin. This contradicts the incorrect claim that 1john 1:8 refers to Christians.

It is possible for a Christian to live according to the sinful nature by minding the things of the flesh and not the things of the Spirit. Rom 8:13 For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,
So the Christian has the choice between life and death, flesh or spirit.

Christians are in the Spirit.
Rom 8:9
But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit

How do we walk in the Spirit?
We believe in Jesus.
This is righteousness by faith.

Walking in the flesh however, is serving sin, Rom 7:25. The flesh seeks to establish it's own righteousness and will not submit to the righteousness of God, Rom 10:3.
The flesh even tries to mix grace with works of the law. It says we're saved by grace, BUT if your not living in good behavior then your unrighteous, unholy, ungodly, imperfect, sinner.
This opposes the true gospel.

In Christ we are:
Holy, Rom 11:16.
Sanctified, Heb 10:10
Perfected, Heb 10:14,
Righteous, Rom 4:5
Cannot sin, 1John 3:9

 

[DHC]

Salvation is very much like the Israelites coming out of Egypt, but they still had to make it to the promised land. Just because they didn't make it to the promised land does not mean they were not children of God nor saved out of Egypt. Their disobedience meant many did not make it to the promised land. It is the same for Christians. We must aim to obey the Lord so we can enter into the New Jerusalem. I'm afraid a gospel that says if you believe in Jesus you automatically reach the promised land, and your actions don't matter, this is not the complete revelation of the bible nor what early Christians believed (if we care to study what the early church believed).

Hello James1523.

Israel did not make it to the promised land because of;

Hebrews 3
16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt,led by Moses? 17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

In fact the Gospel of Jesus Christ is all about belief, James.

We rest in the work of our Lord, not in our own efforts.

 

[Eddy Fire]

go, and sin no more

Go and sin no more?

Does he mean be sinless?

or try to not sin?

after 215 posts
the answer is in what He said
not in what He didn't say

He did not condemn her
He delivered her
freed her
from death

although adultery carried a sentence
and still makes people speak
out of place
in disgrace
disgraceful words out of place
adultery attracts others venting
and comes with additional
unseen dirtinesses
in others
the accusers
minds
she was not
accused of all manner of sin
and yet for the one
The One said
Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more

Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.
And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.
And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
John 8:1-11

 

[james1523]

If Christians cannot and do not sin then why do we need to confess our sins?
If behavior, lifestyle, do not matter.. then why does 2 Cor 5:9 say that God will judge our actions?

 

[B-A-C]

For example,

27 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’
28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed
adultery with her in his heart. (Matthew 5; NKJV)

As a Christian or a non Christian this commandment alone has ruled out most males from
any hope of true obedience. But this is the very point of the law, to impose the death
sentence. Obedience to the law is impossible, it is a work of the flesh.

This is exactly the point. There is grace because we can't keep the commandments 100%
Grace doesn't stop when you get saved, that's when it starts!! :shock:
In fact unless you are saved, there is no grace for your sins.

The Bible never says "don't do any good works at all".
It says you won't be saved by doing them. (At least not without grace).

 

[DHC]

This is exactly the point. There is grace because we can't keep the commandments 100%
Grace doesn't stop when you get saved, that's when it starts!! :shock:
In fact unless you are saved, there is no grace for your sins.

The Bible never says "don't do any good works at all".
It says you won't be saved by doing them. (At least not without grace).

Hello B-A-C.

I never said "dont do any good works at all".

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Grace simply is the unmerited favor by God towards us.

God has reconciled(friendship) us to Himself.

I do not understand your statement B-A-C,
"Grace doesn't stop when you get saved, that's when it starts!!".
You may need for my sake to provide more information?

 

[papajim]

We speak of good works, if Christ is in us who's good works are they ours or the works of Christ?