Sanctification vs Justification

[Barny]

1 Jn 2:1; My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
Luke 11:4; 'And forgive us our sins, For we ourselves also forgive everyone who is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation.'"
Psa 32:5; I acknowledged my sin to You, And my iniquity I did not hide; I said, "I will confess my transgressions to the LORD"; And You forgave the guilt of my sin. Selah.
1 Jn 1:9; If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Hi B-A-C,

Unfortunately these scriptures you quoted (out of context) do not answer my question about your claim that God has some minimum standard of good behavior we need to show as evidence that we're saved. You spoke of "habitual" sin but have never shown what determines what this is.

Any doctrine that claims someone is lost based on how bad a lifestyle they live ("habitual" sin) needs to offer scripture to support such a claim, showing exactly what determines "habitual". And if there is no scripture to support it then it must be discarded as a error doctrine.

 

[theword]

Sanctification is when God finally purifies the flesh of us saints and his knowledge starts flowing in our minds. This is the born again experience and when God's knowledge begins to flow in our minds. From this day forth, the new saint will be a witness to the truth, who is God, our Creator. Everything we write and speak is the gospel because we learn from his knowledge that we (saints ) were created as his voice. I've been speaking and writing for God since June 16th, 2008, two days after he finished delivering me from this false world we're in, which took Him about 29 years to do. Now I know the deep things of our Creator and why he set up this world delusion we're in. He also taught me how he created us. If any of you are interested in learning how he created us and this false world, let me know.

 

[theword]

God planned on saving all his people, Israel, from their sinful flesh. He created us in his righteous spirit first (energy), then put us in the flesh of a man that deceives us from the truth. This is why we all have to die in this world before waking up to the truth. We saints die to this world while we're still in the flesh of man and receive the knowledge of the deeper things of God. The deep things of God go way beyond the atoms we see.

 

[papajim]

LOL, I am free will. I don't giive credence to the 10 commandments for saving me.
I just believe that loving our neighbors is what God wants us to do.

To answer your questions...
1. God drew me near, but I choose to accept him. He did not force me to.
2. Jesus
3. God
4. God
5. God, but I can choose to quench, grieve, and resist him as some people do.
6. Love God, and the second greatest is to love your neighbor.
7. The Holy Spirit
8. God
9. Jesus
10. As I said, I am not calvinist, I believe in free will. I make my own decisions. I am responsible for them.
11. All of the things God has asked me do, not just one individual thing I choose. To refuse any of them is to disobey God.

B-A-C ,
I did not write the last post as my computer says I did, it was from DCH and I do not support his views in not believing in the imparted righteousness of Christ. In fact only believing in the imputed righteousness of Christ is half truth. Remember this that God in Christ has already freed you from sin, and that freedom comes from faith. God asks you only to believe. Righteousness comes by faith, excercise your faith throughout the day, build your relationship with Christ continuously, hunger and thirst for righteousness and you will be filled, pray without ceasing and you will be victorious. Beware of those that preach half truths, because they don't believe in the imparted righteousness you have no common ground for your debates. Believing in only the imputed righteousness of Christ they have nothing to confess for they are without sin and connot sin. Hold you peace, dust off your shoes and move on, your debate is pointless.

Remember this,
Obiedence to the law is an atribute of love, love is an adtribute of Christ, Christ and the Father are one. If Christ is in the heart, God is also in the heart, and when the the Father and Son are in the heart, love is also in the heart, when love is in the heart, the law is written in the heart. Love destroys that which the law speaks against, therefore establishing the law in your heart, not through the works of the law, but through love. Love God with all of your heart first, and through this love for God, you will fulfill the second law, which is, love your neighbor as yourself. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Abide in the love of the Father and the Son. Your sins have already been forgiven, repent (regret) and confess your sins of unbelief and believe this with all of your heart, Keep your eyes fixed upon Jesus always, give Him glory in all that you do, let Him be the motivation for all your actions, and you will be victorious. Trying to keep the law is unbelef you have victory in Christ, and you are freed from sin in Christ already, Believe!

 

[papajim]

Hello Papajim.

No work is to be performed on the sabbath,
the sabbath is a day of rest!

Gathering sticks for a fire on the sabbath was
a capital offence. (Numbers 15:32)

Exodus 35:3
You shall not kindle a fire in any of your dwellings on the sabbath day.

No work, this includes plowing, reaping or harvesting of wheat.

Exodus 16:29
the Lord has given you the sabbath; therefore He gives you bread (manna)
for two days on the sixth day. Remain every man in his place; let no man go
out of his place on the seventh day.

Let every man remain at home on the sabbath.
This is not my interpretation Papajim, this is
the Lord's command. No gathering of manna
on the seventh day, that is why God gave them
a double serve of manna on the sixth day.

No preparation of food, no cooking, no carrying
of food, etc. No work of any nature is allowed
on the sabbath. You must remain at home or where
ever you may be at the start of the sabbath day.
You are not allowed to leave your house on the
sabbath Papajim.

You replied to my post Papajim and stated that;

"All the diciples were doing was feeding themselves
and you find this breaking the sabbath"

When you select and pick wheat kernels you have to
prepare the kernel by rubbing the outer husk away.
This is work, there is no doubt that the pharisees were
correct in their accusation Papajim.

In fact Papajim, Jesus agrees with the Pharisees, the
apostles, the chosen disciples were in fact breaking
the sabbath law. That is why Jesus alludes to King
David, when David entered the temple and did that
which was not lawful.

If you read the following text carefully you will find
what I stated is true.

Matthew 12
2 But when the Pharisees saw this, they said to Him, look, your
disciples do what is not lawful to do on a Sabbath.
5 Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the
priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent?

See Papajim, Jesus says, that the priests are exempt from
breaking the sabbath and so are the disciples. How did you
miss this point Papajim.

The disciples were "chosen" by Jesus, once chosen the
disciples are sanctified, they are set apart. These disciples
are royal priests in waiting, exempt from the requirements
of the law Papajim.

There are three things missing from you anology and has caused you to view this story in the same light as the Pharasees. You figure out what these three things are.
Also, you have avoided my question, why was the sabbath made for man?
I will continue when you answer these questions correctely.
You have dispised God's law, if you wish to be free from the requirements of the law, you shall be, and you will reap what you sew.

 

[DHC]

There are three things missing from you anology and has caused you to view this story in the same light as the Pharasees. You figure out what these three things are.
Also, you have avoided my question, why was the sabbath made for man?
I will continue when you answer these questions correctely.
You have dispised God's law, if you wish to be free from the requirements of the law, you shall be, and you will reap what you sew.

Hello Papajim.

I do not despise the law, I find the national legal system
of Israel fascinating. With all respect to you Papajim, I am
very surprised at your attempt to join this ancient covenant.

In the O.T we are told that the sabbath was given to Israel.
The sabbath was included in the legal system of Israel.
What must be understood Papajim, is that the law was
in the context of a covenant. Israel agreed to the covenant
with God regarding the law. Gentile nations are not and
have never been a party to this covenant.

Exodus 31:16
So the sons of Israel shall observe the sabbath, to celebrate
the sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.

The text states "the sons of Israel" shall observe the sabbath.
As a perpetual covenant!

Exodus 24
7 Then he took the book of the covenant and read it in the hearing of the people;
and they said, “All that the Lord has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient!”
8 So Moses took the blood and sprinkled it on the people, and said,
“Behold the blood of the covenant, which the Lord has made with you in
accordance with all these words."

See Papajim, a covenant, an agreement, signed in blood.
This covenant is between Israel and God, not America
and God. The people of Israel said "All that the Lord has
spoken we will do, and we will be obedient!".

You and I are not members of the nation of Israel, we
are not descendants of Abraham. The Jews are the
descendants of Abraham, the covenant was between
the Jews and God. That is what the text states, ignore
this at your own peril.

 

[Barny]

Unfortunately there is an error doctrine that is actively promoted by some, on forums. It's the doctrine of "imparted righteousness".
It is not supported in scripture.
"Imparted righteousness" is a lukewarm doctrine that mixes grace with works of the law. And scripture tells us we cannot mix these 2.
Rom 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace.But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

The adherents of this doctrine of "Imparted righteousness" argue either one of the following views:
1:One day in the future, by faith, they will show evidence of "imparted righteousness" as perfect obedience to the law, in this physical life.
OR
2:God requires some unknown, yet acceptable, level of obedience to the law as evidence of "imparted righteousness" .

Both these views fail in that nobody has attained perfect obedience to the law, and nor would God leave us clueless with a "imparted righteousness" evidence requirement of an unknown level of obedience to the law.

And both these views argue that without evidence/works of "imparted righteousness", we are condemned and lost.

"Imparted righteousness" complicates the gospel of grace so as to lure people away from the simplicity that is in Christ.
2Cor 11:3
But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

We all need to be careful about what we preach.
We see this warning in scripture, especially for those who preach the lukewarm mix of grace and works of the law, James 3: 1-12
let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment......

And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity. The tongue is so set among our members that it defiles the whole body,......

But no man can tame the tongue. It is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. With it we bless (love) our God and Father , and with it we curse (judge/condemn through the law) men, who have been made in the similitude of God. Out of the same mouth proceed blessing (love/grace) and cursing (judgement/condemnation through the law). My brethren, these things ought not to be so. Does a spring send forth fresh water (grace/love) and bitter (judgement/condemnation through the law) from the same opening? Can a fig tree, my brethren, bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Thus no spring yields both salt water and fresh.

 

[james1523]

Barny, you must not believe that Christians participate in the divine nature: 2 Peter 1:4 "Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires."

 

[sintheticg]

"What's the deal with cotton candy Christians?/
Who demand blessings but can't stand afflictions?/
Compared to other things, they barely love the King/
They want to be like Christ, but not share His sufferings/
Receive the Savior, or you're more than flawed/
Without the Mediator, you're at war with God/
So come-n-hearken ta the Humble Carpenta/
He payed the bail so why stay in jail?/
Soon He'll reveal His doom that is real/
And you'll be sliced in half by His righteous wrath/
But those choosin' to kneel, by His wounds they'll be healed/
And this life will pass when we unite at last/
The Lord is callin' me with Reformed Theology/
To warn your colony to ignore idolatry/
He's victorious, so who's the next challenger?/
My pocket Bible's sharper than your excalibur"

-timothy brindle

I've always loved this poem. When ever I feel down it reminds me to refocus on God and not circumstance.

Justification is simply being saved, I don't like the term "accept" myself. Lots of people say "I accepted Jesus." But in my opinion salvation is a free gift we choose to receive and once we have received the gift we are accepted by God, rather than us accepting God. To me this just puts it into more of a perspective in it's nothing i've done, and all glory is to God.

Sanctification is Gods promise to us, that he who started a good work will finish it. We should be at war with sin, and though we fail, we press on toward the kingdom.

I like to call it the 3 R's of recovery. Recognize you have a sin problem. Repent of your sin. and Replace that sin with scripture that will help you battle in times of temptation.

the biggest problem with all religion is that it places you in bondage. religion says through sanctification you can be justified. The bible says only after you have been justified, can the process of sanctification begin. You are being made like Christ and subsequently, his death is what made you free to do so.

 

[brakelite]

Unfortunately there is an error doctrine that is actively promoted by some, on forums. It's the doctrine of "imparted righteousness".
It is not supported in scripture.
"Imparted righteousness" is a lukewarm doctrine that mixes grace with works of the law. And scripture tells us we cannot mix these 2.
Rom 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace.But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

The adherents of this doctrine of "Imparted righteousness" argue either one of the following views:
1:One day in the future, by faith, they will show evidence of "imparted righteousness" as perfect obedience to the law, in this physical life.
OR
2:God requires some unknown, yet acceptable, level of obedience to the law as evidence of "imparted righteousness" .

Both these views fail in that nobody has attained perfect obedience to the law, and nor would God leave us clueless with a "imparted righteousness" evidence requirement of an unknown level of obedience to the law.

And both these views argue that without evidence/works of "imparted righteousness", we are condemned and lost.

"Imparted righteousness" complicates the gospel of grace so as to lure people away from the simplicity that is in Christ.
2Cor 11:3
But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

We all need to be careful about what we preach.
We see this warning in scripture, especially for those who preach the lukewarm mix of grace and works of the law, James 3: 1-12
let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment......

And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity. The tongue is so set among our members that it defiles the whole body,......

But no man can tame the tongue. It is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. With it we bless (love) our God and Father , and with it we curse (judge/condemn through the law) men, who have been made in the similitude of God. Out of the same mouth proceed blessing (love/grace) and cursing (judgement/condemnation through the law). My brethren, these things ought not to be so. Does a spring send forth fresh water (grace/love) and bitter (judgement/condemnation through the law) from the same opening? Can a fig tree, my brethren, bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Thus no spring yields both salt water and fresh.

It would seem Barny that what you firmly and irresolutely believe is the following.

Though Barny may lust, lie, or steal, this is not counted as sin because the Bible says Barny cannot sin.
It is impossible for Barny to not lie, lust, or steal, because his flesh is uncontrolled and unable to obey God.
The devil is more powerful than God ....the devils power to entice Barny to lust is greater than God's power to strengthen Barny to refrain from lust.
Though Barny's life may have changed for the better, and those changes came from God, they weren't in any-wise associated with righteousness, as that would mean that God imparted to Barny His own righteousness.

So Barny, as a precis of what you have thus far revealed to us regarding your belief system, the above leaves me with but one question. If the improvements that God made in your life (thus imparted to you) had nothing to do with overcoming sin, or improving character, therefore having nothing to do with righteousness, what on earth were they????

 

[Barny]

It would seem Barny that what you firmly and irresolutely believe is the following.
Though Barny may lust, lie, or steal, this is not counted as sin because the Bible says Barny cannot sin.
It is impossible for Barny to not lie, lust, or steal, because his flesh is uncontrolled and unable to obey God.

Hi brakelite,

You are contradicting yourself, hence I'll make some comments on your post to clarify our differing opinions.

You point out that I am not able to be perfect in the physical, and you describe this as being "unable to obey God".
But, you yourself are likewise not perfect in the physical, and you never will be.
Your like the pot calling the kettle, "black".
And thus, by your own words, you condemn yourself through the doctrine you follow which demands evidence of "imparted righteousness" or else your condemned/lost.

Those who follow the doctrine of "imparted righteousness" are a hearer of the word and not a doer. They are like "a man observing his natural face in a mirror; for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was". James 1:23-24.

Such people receive the truth of the gospel and are saved by grace, but, they then forget that their faith is counted for righteousness and then they turn to doctrines that say they are unrighteous unless they show evidence of "imparted righteousness" through works of the law.
Those who follow the "imparted righteousness" doctrine are only deceiving themselves, as described in James 1:22

So, whilst I admit that I'm not perfect in this physical state, I walk by faith and not by sight and therefore do not judge righteousness by works of the law (the evidence of so called "imparted righteousness).
I believe God that my body is already dead (by faith) because of sin, Rom 8:10. Hence I do not judge my righteousness by it's success or failure to be in perfect obedience to the law.
I believe God that our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.

Though Barny's life may have changed for the better, and those changes came from God, they weren't in any-wise associated with righteousness, as that would mean that God imparted to Barny His own righteousness.
So Barny, as a precis of what you have thus far revealed to us regarding your belief system, the above leaves me with but one question. If the improvements that God made in your life (thus imparted to you) had nothing to do with overcoming sin, or improving character, therefore having nothing to do with righteousness, what on earth were they????

Any improvements in our behavior is through our ever growing trust in God which can result in changes in our lives.
But this is no basis for judging whether we are righteous or not, as we already have righteousness through our faith.

Unfortunately you demand physical evidence (works of the law) of "imparted righteousness" before you will accept that in Christ believers are righteous. And following such doctrines is like "a man observing his natural face in a mirror; for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was", James 1:23-24

Please heed God's warning in James 1:22.
But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.

 

[B-A-C]

But, you yourself are likewise not perfect in the physical, and you never will be.

This is called sin.
You know, for someone who says we can't sin anymore, you sure spend a lot of time telling us what we are doing is wrong.
If all we have to do is believe in Jesus, what difference does it make to you if we want to do other things?
If homosexuality, adultery, lust, lying and stealing aren't sin, then certainly I would think loving your neighbor isn't a sin either.
But even if it is, so what, all we have to do is believe in Jesus right?

 

[DHC]

Romans 6
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?
2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?
3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the
dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness
of His resurrection,
6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with,
that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.
8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him.
10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Why all the discussion about sin? When you are baptized into Christ
your flesh is dead. You become a new creation in Christ, all things
are new! Consider yourselves dead to sin and alive in Christ, which
you already are. "7 For he who has died has been freed from sin."

 

[Barny]

This is called sin.
You know, for someone who says we can't sin anymore, you sure spend a lot of time telling us what we are doing is wrong.
If all we have to do is believe in Jesus, what difference does it make to you if we want to do other things?
If homosexuality, adultery, lust, lying and stealing aren't sin, then certainly I would think loving your neighbor isn't a sin either.
But even if it is, so what, all we have to do is believe in Jesus right?

Your focus about wrong behavior is misdirected.
Whilst neither of us are justifying wrong behavior, under grace, where we differ is that you judge perpetrators of wrong behavior as condemned/lost if they slip up once too often (or "habitual" sin). So you are proposing that we are condemned/lost if we do not meet some unknown minimum level of good behavior/works of the law as evidence of "imparted" righteousness. And you have no scripture to support this ambiguous/complicated doctrine.

Contrast the ambiguous/complicated doctrine you follow with the true gospel. Under the true gospel we see a simple, clear, definite message from God. Believe in Jesus and we will have life everlasting. This is the simplicity that is in Christ.
Believing in Jesus is all we have to do.
Our works that shows our faith is to believe in Jesus, John 6:29.
Believing in Jesus is God's will for us, John 6:40.
His commandment to us is to believe in Jesus, 1John 3:23
We overcome the world by believing in Jesus, 1John 5:5.
We are born of God when we believe in Jesus, 1John 5:1

And the sin the world is convicted of is unbelief in Jesus, John 16:9.

And in believing in Jesus our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5
Hence nobody, not even Satan the accuser, can charge us with sin/unrighteousness.
Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

The wrong that I dispute with some here is the doctrine that undermines the gospel with false teachings that we're not righteous unless we show evidence of so called "imparted" righteousness through works of the law. It's this lukewarm mixing of grace with works of the law that I oppose.

 

[papajim]

Romans 6
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?
2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?
3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the
dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness
of His resurrection,
6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with,
that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.
8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him.
10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Why all the discussion about sin? When you are baptized into Christ
your flesh is dead. You become a new creation in Christ, all things
are new! Consider yourselves dead to sin and alive in Christ, which
you already are. "7 For he who has died has been freed from sin."

We are all saying the same thing as you have stated here, but comprehending it two different ways. The exception for us is that we also believe that we have been freed from sin entirely including our physical behaviour, and the only thing keeping us from obtaining this is our unbelief. Both imputed and imparted righteousness has already been given to us in all of it's perfection, the only thing keeping us from recievieng both is our unbelief. If we are made righteousness let us also live in righteousness so that the filth of the flesh is truly dead in us.

 

[DHC]

We are all saying the same thing as you have stated here, but comprehending it two different ways. The exception for us is that we also believe that we have been freed from sin entirely including our physical behaviour, and the only thing keeping us from obtaining this is our unbelief. Both imputed and imparted righteousness has already been given to us in all of it's perfection, the only thing keeping us from recievieng both is our unbelief. If we are made righteousness let us also live in righteousness so that the filth of the flesh is truly dead in us.

Yes, Papajim that answer is correct.

Hebrews 10:22
let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith,
having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our
bodies washed with pure water.

 

[sintheticg]

Your focus about wrong behavior is misdirected.
Whilst neither of us are justifying wrong behavior, under grace, where we differ is that you judge perpetrators of wrong behavior as condemned/lost if they slip up once too often (or "habitual" sin). So you are proposing that we are condemned/lost if we do not meet some unknown minimum level of good behavior/works of the law as evidence of "imparted" righteousness. And you have no scripture to support this ambiguous/complicated doctrine.

Contrast the ambiguous/complicated doctrine you follow with the true gospel. Under the true gospel we see a simple, clear, definite message from God. Believe in Jesus and we will have life everlasting. This is the simplicity that is in Christ.
Believing in Jesus is all we have to do.
Our works that shows our faith is to believe in Jesus, John 6:29.
Believing in Jesus is God's will for us, John 6:40.
His commandment to us is to believe in Jesus, 1John 3:23
We overcome the world by believing in Jesus, 1John 5:5.
We are born of God when we believe in Jesus, 1John 5:1

And the sin the world is convicted of is unbelief in Jesus, John 16:9.

And in believing in Jesus our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5
Hence nobody, not even Satan the accuser, can charge us with sin/unrighteousness.
Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

The wrong that I dispute with some here is the doctrine that undermines the gospel with false teachings that we're not righteous unless we show evidence of so called "imparted" righteousness through works of the law. It's this lukewarm mixing of grace with works of the law that I oppose.

I look at a fruit test as a personal thing, not something to go yanking splinters out of your brothers eye with, but to focus on the beam in our own eyes. Paul exhorts us to examine ourselves and try our faith. We know Jesus is sufficient, we should be confident he can give us victory over sins which the spirit in us has a desire to be rid of. Romans is a beautiful writing showing both our power over sin thanks to His Resurrection, and our freedom from the guilt of sin. We should be careful not to offend the babes in Christ. Don't walk up to someone who just made a profession of faith and expect them to give up their drinking, smoking, video games, tv time, and cussing right away. Pray for each other and allow the Holy Spirit to guide our steps. It's humbling to recognize I have no power to change another persons behavior, especially since I oft times fail at correcting mine.

The church should not become some spiritual competition to start measuring our faith with others. We are there to love one another, exhort one another, and encourage one another as we prepare to share our faith in our communities.

Share the gospel and pray, trust the Holy Spirit to do the rest.

True disciple ship to me is holding each other accountable, praying together, and studying the word together. Far too many churches have turned disciple ship into a once a week meeting with homework from a text book, it's like we don't trust the Spirit to fulfill his promise that he who hath started a good work will finish it.

 

[papajim]

Your focus about wrong behavior is misdirected.
Whilst neither of us are justifying wrong behavior, under grace, where we differ is that you judge perpetrators of wrong behavior as condemned/lost if they slip up once too often (or "habitual" sin). So you are proposing that we are condemned/lost if we do not meet some unknown minimum level of good behavior/works of the law as evidence of "imparted" righteousness. And you have no scripture to support this ambiguous/complicated doctrine.

Contrast the ambiguous/complicated doctrine you follow with the true gospel. Under the true gospel we see a simple, clear, definite message from God. Believe in Jesus and we will have life everlasting. This is the simplicity that is in Christ.
Believing in Jesus is all we have to do.
Our works that shows our faith is to believe in Jesus, John 6:29.
Believing in Jesus is God's will for us, John 6:40.
His commandment to us is to believe in Jesus, 1John 3:23
We overcome the world by believing in Jesus, 1John 5:5.
We are born of God when we believe in Jesus, 1John 5:1

And the sin the world is convicted of is unbelief in Jesus, John 16:9.

And in believing in Jesus our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5
Hence nobody, not even Satan the accuser, can charge us with sin/unrighteousness.
Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

The wrong that I dispute with some here is the doctrine that undermines the gospel with false teachings that we're not righteous unless we show evidence of so called "imparted" righteousness through works of the law. It's this lukewarm mixing of grace with works of the law that I oppose.

where we differ is that you judge perpetrators of wrong behavior as condemned/lost if they slip up once too often (or "habitual" sin).

Actually this is not true, we also believe in the imputed righteousness of Christ.

Barny if we are freed from sin we are freed entirely, our physical behaviour is also freed from sinning entirely. If we are freed from sin we are freed from sin. To say that our physical behaviour is no sign that we are freed from sin is not true. If we are free we are free in everyway you look at this. Being free is being set apart from so that we are no longer are particpating in the things we have been freed from. This is not complicated but very simple to understand. Your enterpretation is compilicated, but the fulness of the gospel is so simple a child can understand it.
In your previous post you said "Any improvements in our behaviour is through our ever trusting in God which can result in changes in our lives" Here you have established our point, Hence "improvements/changes through trusting in God. Here you have trusting in God, which is faith. The only difference is that we believe that there is no limit to those changes, and you do believe there are limits to those changes, so what are you minimum behaviour changes?

I believe that we are freed from sin in every way and this is established in me through faith, so that not only do I have the righteousness of God already, but through faith I can also live the righteousness of Christ, so that I no longer participate in it any longer. Mathew 9:5 For whether is easier, to say, thy sins be forgiven thee; or Arise, and walk? This is the story of the paralytic where he was healed by Jesus. Notice here you have two things, sins are forgiven and arise and walk. In just about every case an action is followed by faith or an action is followed by unbelief and action is works. The paralytic was forgiven and what followed was getting up and walking. This took faith it also took believing in Jesus so here you have both imputed and imparted righteousness. "Faith without works is dead" I know you think that believing is works, but the real truth is believing produces works. The cripple could not have been healed if he did not get up and walk.

I find that you are filled with unbelief, because you do not believe that Jesus freed you from sin in your physical behaviour, brother if you are free believe it. You also believe that nobody has achieved this behavioural perfection, who told you this, How do you know this? Who is the judge you or God? Yes we are all guilty before God and yes we have all sinned and come short of the Glory of God but where, anywhere, in God's word does it say we have to continue this way? I find that contrary to your belief, that through faith we can walk as Jesus walked and we through faith can overcome as He overcame, this is all physical behaviour. Jesus overcame the world by His faith in God, His physical behaviour proved what He believed, He showed us the way, why are you filled with doubt?
There is so much scritpure to support this, but because of your unbelief you can't see it. Your vision has been clouded through unbelief. If you are free walk in your freedom, live as though you are free.
You say that we are lukewarm through our works of the law, But mind you, that it is not our works but His works, working in us. I find that you are lukewarm because you do not have to excersise faith to overcome the world you say you believe and that is good enough. The devil believes and trembles. Those that believe in Jesus do overcome the world through faith, not just believing but exercising that belief, so that we are not hypoctires, but walk as we believe not the hearers of the law, but doers of the law will be justified. What seperates us from the world, just believing, or acting up our belief? If we just believe and our actions do not follow our belief how will the world know that there is a difference in us? Are we not a witness that God has freed us from sin in Christ? Is not that the light that is in us?
You say that if we believe in Jesus we cannot sin, sin is in our physical behaviour, but if we truly believe, we make this statement come true in us, so that we cannot sin for we believe we have been completely seperated from it. This all comes through extrodinary faith, the faith of Jesus, faith that overcomes the world.
Barny if you are freed from sin all that you are is freed from sin, spiritualy, mentaly ,and physical behaviour. You are born again, a new man in Christ all that you used to be is gone, dead, the actions of the flesh are dead. Believe it!

 

[papajim]

Hello Papajim.

I do not despise the law, I find the national legal system
of Israel fascinating. With all respect to you Papajim, I am
very surprised at your attempt to join this ancient covenant.

In the O.T we are told that the sabbath was given to Israel.
The sabbath was included in the legal system of Israel.
What must be understood Papajim, is that the law was
in the context of a covenant. Israel agreed to the covenant
with God regarding the law. Gentile nations are not and
have never been a party to this covenant.

Exodus 31:16
So the sons of Israel shall observe the sabbath, to celebrate
the sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.

The text states "the sons of Israel" shall observe the sabbath.
As a perpetual covenant!

Exodus 24
7 Then he took the book of the covenant and read it in the hearing of the people;
and they said, “All that the Lord has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient!”
8 So Moses took the blood and sprinkled it on the people, and said,
“Behold the blood of the covenant, which the Lord has made with you in
accordance with all these words."

See Papajim, a covenant, an agreement, signed in blood.
This covenant is between Israel and God, not America
and God. The people of Israel said "All that the Lord has
spoken we will do, and we will be obedient!".

You and I are not members of the nation of Israel, we
are not descendants of Abraham. The Jews are the
descendants of Abraham, the covenant was between
the Jews and God. That is what the text states, ignore
this at your own peril.

I apoligize to you DHC that I have not yet replied to your post. Thank you for your patients, I will reply as soon as I am able, it seems I am pressed for time answering the posts as I am led. Again thank you for your patients.

 

[papajim]

Yes, Papajim that answer is correct.

Hebrews 10:22
let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith,
having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our
bodies washed with pure water.

Amen! and Amen!