Sanctification vs Justification

[brakelite]

The proof of salvation that God seeks in us is that we believe His promises. Believe in Jesus and we will have eternal life.
And His commandments which believers obey, are seen in 1John 3:23.
1: Believe in Jesus.
2:Love one another.

Now to love one another is often seen in terms of forgiving each other 7x70. Just as God loved us and forgave us.

But those who preach doctrines that people are condemned/lost if they do not measure up to perfection or some unknown lessor minimum standard of behavior, then such people will likewise not be forgiven by God.

In this imperfect world nobody is going to be perfect in behavior.

But, as you claim we are to have "imparted" righteousness which confirms we are saved, then I ask you what level of good behavior proves that we have this?
Is it to be perfect?
Or is some lessor, yet acceptable level ok?
And what measure do you claim we use?

I wonder Barny why it is that while you see love as equating to forgiveness and showing mercy etc etc, all right and good, yet you cannot see that love is also reflected in the Ten Commandments?
You love and serve the One True God only.
You love His name.
You love His Sabbath.
You love your parents.
You love showing kindness.
You love purity.
You love honesty.
You love to be content.

Don't you see how love fulfils the law?
Saying that no-one has achieved perfection as an excuse for your own lack of desire to seek righteousness is a cop-out. There is One who has achieved perfection. He is our Model, He is the Standard we are to follow, He is the 'Minimum' you seem to want to settle for. He is the One Who walked the way before us, Who by faith resisted temptation, exalted the law and made it honourable.

Eccl. 12:13 ¶ Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Revelation 14:6 ¶ And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.....
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

 

[brakelite]

Ephesians 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
Surely all the fulness of God must include the righteousness of God!
And that very last verse is the whole reason we ought to obey God’s commandments. To bring glory to Him.


Phil 1:9 ¶ And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;
10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;
11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

Here is again a solid clear concise depiction of the standard of behaviour God desires we can attain if we surrender our lives to Him, that He may create in us His righteousness.

 

[DHC]

Hi DHC, I offer this as an explanation. God promised Abraham that He would make him the father of many nations. This was God's covenant, for that is what a covenant is, a promise. Not long after Abraham's descendants found themselves slaves in a foreign land, in bondage to a foreign power, surrounded and influenced by strange gods, the true God and His precepts forgotten until Moses comes along. God sets them free, reminding them of His laws and commandments, particularly the Sabbath. ( Exodus 16, at least 3 months before Israel arrived at Sinai). God speaks His laws from Sinai, and engraves them with His own finger upon the stone tablets. Israel, as you have quoted previously, said to Moses "All that the Lord has said we will do". God did not ask Israel to promise anything. The promises were all His, it was merely up to Israel to believe. However, they wanted to add their own 'works' to God's promises and made the promise, and broke it before even Moses had time to come down from the mountain. Thus the old covenant was broken before it had hardly begun. They made a gold god, worshipped this idol, cavorted naked around it and generally took themselves back to spiritual Egypt.

Therefore God had to take further steps. He had to teach these stubborn self-willed people what obedience and the mercy and grace of God is all about, and how they relate. So He gave them the services of the sanctuary, the priesthood, and the yearly round of sacrifices and ceremonies. It was this law, the law of Moses, that was given because of transgression against the laws of God. Neither law annulled however God's promise, but Moses law was given to show Israel its dependence on God and the uselessness of trying to go it alone.

Romans 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

The law of Moses was given to show Israel the gospel. In the form of a theatre so to speak, Israel was shown that there was to come a Saviour, a fulfilment of the promise (covenant) that was first given in the garden of Eden. Every sacrifice, every annual sabbath, every celebration, every act of the priest in the daily ministration,every act of the high priest in the annual ministration on the day of atonement when he went into the most holy place for the only time of the year, all were a shadow of Christ's ministry beginning with His sacrifice on Calvary and culminating with the second coming and His taking His people home.

Thus neither law were intended to give life, but to lead us to the Saviour. The second law given because of transgression against the first. The ceremonial aspects of the second law fulfilled in Christ through Whom we now have the power to obey the first law through the removal of sin and the breaking of the power of sin in the lives of those who believe.

Thus Christ is the end of the law, not the destruction or the removal of the law, but the end, the goal, the final triumphant destination to which the law was heading.

Hello brakelite.

A covenant is not a promise as such, here brakelite is the dictionary definition of a covenant.

Easton's Bible Dictionary
A contract or agreement between two parties. In the Old Testament the Hebrew word "berith"
is always thus translated. Berith is derived from a root which means "to cut," and hence a covenant
is a "cutting," with reference to the cutting or dividing of animals into two parts, and the contracting
parties passing between them, in making a covenant (Genesis 15; Jeremiah 34:18,19).

So we know that a covenant is an agreement between two parties.

What is interesting though is that the law itself, is in fact a written
witness against the Israelites. God has informed Moses that they
would rebel against Him and they would break the covenant or
agreement. Read the following brakelite;

Deuteronomy 31
24 It came about, when Moses finished writing the words of this law in a book until they were complete,
25 that Moses commanded the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying,
26 Take this book of the law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it
may remain there as a witness against you.
27 For I know your rebellion and your stubbornness; behold, while I am still alive with you today,
you have been rebellious against the Lord; how much more, then, after my death?
28 Assemble to me all the elders of your tribes and your officers, that I may speak these words in their
hearing and call the heavens and the earth to witness against them.
29 For I know that after my death you will act corruptly and turn from the way which I have commanded you;
and evil will befall you in the latter days, for you will do that which is evil in the sight of the Lord, provoking Him
to anger with the work of your hands.

So the purpose of the law is clearly illustrated in the above.
The law reveals the works of the flesh. Also, very interesting
is that Israel was foretold the outcome of this Mosaic covenant.
They had failed before they entered the promised land!

So in summary the law is a witness against mankind of the
utter fultility, of a righteousness based on the law.

Now brakelite, if you could furnish the scripture to support
the following statements of yours;

1) God sets them free, reminding them of His laws and commandments,
particularly the Sabbath. I know Exodus 16 you may omit that one.

2) It was this law, the law of Moses, that was given because of transgression
against the laws of God.

 

[brakelite]

Deuteronomy 31
24 It came about, when Moses finished writing the words of this law in a book until they were complete,
25 that Moses commanded the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying,
26 Take this book of the law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it
may remain there as a witness against you.

Hi DHC, the quote from Deuteronomy that you offered answers the second of your two questions. The law ( of Moses) was given because of transgression. Transgression is against the law. Thus you must have an existing law against which there was transgression before the second could be introduced. The second law, that of Moses, was given because of transgression against the first. The first law could not have been given because of transgression, because without the law there is no knowledge of sin. The first law therefore has always been in existence, as I have proved elswhere it being a transcript of God's character , His righteousness.
God's law was written upon tables of stone and stored in the ark. Note where the book (not tables) of Moses was stored...beside the ark. Thus two distinctly separate laws with two distinctively separate purposes.

As to your first question. You ask for evidence of God's reminding Israel of His Sabbath prior to Sinai. But why should I omit Exodus 16? It is in Exodus 16 that one finds all the evidence one requires to convince him of the existence of God's laws before Sinai. I will quote from that chapter, notwithstanding your generous offer of 'omission'.
After instructing Israel on the correct procedure for collecting the manna and the required respect to be given the Sabbath, some in the camp however didn't listen and went out on the Sabbath to collect more. Note carefully God's response.
27 And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none.
28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?

Here is all the evidence one needs to prove the existence of law before Sinai.

 

[Barny]

@Barny:

In post #157 you quoted me saying "there is a minimum number of shots", but it should say, "there is NO minimum number of shots".

My apologies if my post mis-represented you..

I actually said, "some unknown minimum standard," which is somewhat similar to your quote above. I had said that in reference to previous discussions with yourself and others which had led me to understand that you were saying that there is a limit to God's forgiveness for bad behavior.

 

[brakelite]

My apologies if my post mis-represented you..

I actually said, "some unknown minimum standard," which is somewhat similar to your quote above. I had said that in reference to previous discussions with yourself and others which had led me to understand that you were saying that there is a limit to God's forgiveness for bad behavior.

Hi Barny, excuse me for butting in on your convo with BAC, but what you have said here adds a new dimension to your thinking. Our belief that there is a standard by which God's judges mankind and to which we as His people by His grace can aspire to does in no way place a limit on His forgiveness, and I am wondering how you came up with such a out of left field connection?

 

[Barny]

At minimum, is to turn from sins (repentance) and turn towards God as it says :
Matt 3:8Prove by the way you live that you have repented of your sins and turned to God.

Matt 3:8; "Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance"

Repentance from what?
Answer: "dead works", Heb 6:1.
This is dead works of self-righteousness.

Acts 26:20, gives us a similar message to matt 3:8
Acts 26:20.
repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

And these works meet for repentance is to believe in Jesus, John 6:29.
And in believing in Jesus we are not believing in him, but in God.
John 12:44
Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.

Belief and love are not sufficient proof in and of themselves. Even Muslims believe in Jesus the Prophet and they love one another because they are Muslim brothers and sisters. Even Jehovah Witnesses believe in Jesus and they love one another too. But any further proofs (e.g. improved behavior) are meaningless without faith in Christ and love for God and one another.

But for Christians we believe that Jesus is the Christ, and that in believing in Jesus our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5. In believing in Jesus we have been sanctified (Heb 10:10), are holy (Rom 11:16), perfected (Heb 10:14), and cannot sin (1John 3:9).

The Muslim's and JW's do not believe that in Christ they have the above. The Muslims and JW's have doctrines that speak of various additional requirements to be made righteous, etc. Therefore they do not accept that in Christ they have righteousness.

Belief and love are sufficient proof. The thief on the cross who called Jesus "Lord" had this proof.

 

[Barny]

Hi Barny, excuse me for butting in on your convo with BAC, but what you have said here adds a new dimension to your thinking. Our belief that there is a standard by which God's judges mankind and to which we as His people by His grace can aspire to does in no way place a limit on His forgiveness, and I am wondering how you came up with such a out of left field connection?

It was understood from earlier discussions with B-A-C when he claimed (based on ambiguous modern Bible translations) that "habitual" sin is what the unsaved/lost do. I now recall B-A-C even gave some suggested limits in a later post, claiming that for some God's limit might be several hundred offenses depending on the individual.

I have also found some Adventists likewise claiming that people are lost if they do not obey the 10 commandments well enough.

 

[Barny]

Saying that no-one has achieved perfection as an excuse for your own lack of desire to seek righteousness is a cop-out.

You misunderstand me. I do seek righteousness. And that is righteousness in Christ, imputed to believers.
Phil 3:9
be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Believers submit to God's righteousness and therefore do not turn back, in unbelief, to be perfected by the flesh through works of the law.

As for the imperfect physical life we have, that will not be perfect. Even those who follow doctrines of perfection in the flesh have not attained it.
But this physical part of us is already dead (by faith), Rom 8:10. So why then judge righteousness by it's efforts? To do so is unbelief.

Eccl. 12:13 ¶ Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Revelation 14:6 ¶ And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.....
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

To "keep" the commandments means perfect obedience.
Just one offense makes you guilty of all the law, James 2:10.

Do you keep the law/10 commandments in the flesh?

 

[DHC]

Hi DHC, the quote from Deuteronomy that you offered answers the second of your two questions. The law ( of Moses) was given because of transgression. Transgression is against the law.

Perhaps in your mind this is true, I cannot see "transgression" in the quotation from my post.

Thus you must have an existing law against which there was transgression before the second could be introduced. The second law, that of Moses, was given because of transgression against the first. The first law could not have been given because of transgression, because without the law there is no knowledge of sin.

The first law may in fact be given due to transgression, Adam disobeyed a command, transgression.

The first law therefore has always been in existence, as I have proved elswhere it being a transcript of God's character , His righteousness.

The introduction of a sabbath law by God just before Mt Sinai does not imply
that the other nine laws existed. You need to quote the scripture to support the other
nine. Further the people that went out and searched for manna were not punished.
Perhaps the sabbath at this stage was not yet law.

God's law was written upon tables of stone and stored in the ark. Note where the book (not tables) of Moses was stored...beside the ark. Thus two distinctly separate laws with two distinctively separate purposes.

The book of law probably did not fit in the ark. Remember that the law of Moses would
have taken up considerable space. I will have to check the dimensions of the ark. Let us assume
that you are correct. If the tablets of stone are so important, why is the rod that budded more important
than the law of Moses? Also, this idea does not imply that the law system of Israel should be divided into
two sections.

How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?

If this is true then the law of Moses (my laws) must have existed before Moses wrote
the law?

Here is all the evidence one needs to prove the existence of law before Sinai.

What evidence, a sabbath introduced a month or two prior to Mt Sinai, does
not amount to any substantial evidence at all brakelite. You must be kidding!
I pointed out that the people were not punished, no LAW as yet, obviously.

 

[DHC]

You misunderstand me. I do seek righteousness. And that is righteousness in Christ, imputed to believers.
Phil 3:9
be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Believers submit to God's righteousness and therefore do not turn back, in unbelief, to be perfected by the flesh through works of the law.

Hello Barny.

Very good post, great quotation,not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law,

You seem to be coping with the legalists.

 

[sintheticg]

(Galatians 3:23-26) "But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. {24} Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. {25} But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. {26} For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus."

The key here to me is AFTER that faith is come. without being justified by faith, one can infer by this text that you are under the law. Of course we know there is none righteous, therefore to serve the law is to die, but to serve Christ is gain. Additionally, one cannot serve Christ, without being born again.

Therefore, Justification must happend before sanctification can take place.

ALL religion says sanctification produces justification
The bible says justification produces santification

 

[papajim]

Hello Barny.

Very good post, great quotation,not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law,

You seem to be coping with the legalists.

I also agree with this, my own righteousness is as a filthy rag.

 

[papajim]

My apologies if my post mis-represented you..

I actually said, "some unknown minimum standard," which is somewhat similar to your quote above. I had said that in reference to previous discussions with yourself and others which had led me to understand that you were saying that there is a limit to God's forgiveness for bad behavior.

Why all the talk of minimum behaviour? we believe in the imputed righteousness of Christ, we believe that when we believe in Jesus, we have all of His righteousness. We also believe this is just the beginning. All the while we grow in Christ we still have His imputed righteousness, but it all comes from believing in Jesus.

When we love one another it fulfills the law, we are saying the same thing that you are saying Barny, the only difference is that we mention the law. The law teaches what love is not, so if we love one another, we fulfill the last 6 comandments. It is a simple thing but yet it is not understood.

You said in several other posts that we seek our own righteousness, by keeping the law, this shows me that you continue to misunderstand what is being said. Never has any said that we establish our own righteousness. Believing in Jesus we have His obedience and by faith we recieve His obedience. What was His obedience? Love. In every occasion of the Life of Jesus He demonstrated love, He also kept or obeyed all of the royal laws, because love in itself is obedience to the ten laws. Barny we have been arguing the same point but coming to it from two different directions. If we love we fulfill the law, it is not our own righteousness, but the righteousness of God in Christ working in us. This comes from believing in Jesus, it is not legalism as suggested by DHC, legalism is not supported by love, legalism is following a set of rules.

Love is the substance of the law, without love the law cannot be fulfilled. It is only through your refusal to believe that the law speaks of love, that we differ. Another thing I find extremly sad is that you don't believe that God imparts love to us, if He did't impart love how could any of us love, how can we love one another if love is not imparted. Can I believe in Jesus and not love my brother? 1Jn.2:9 "He that saith he is in the light and hateth is brother, is in dakness even until now. (10.) He that loveth his brother abideth in the light." If God did not impart love to us, where did it come from? If we say it is coming from us we are attempting to establish our own rigteousness.

 

[B-A-C]

but what you have said here adds a new dimension to your thinking. Our belief that there is a standard by which God's judges mankind and to which we as His people by His grace can aspire to does in no way place a limit on His forgiveness, and I am wondering how you came up with such a out of left field connection?

I also, have noticed a change in Barny's posts as of the last few days. I have been afraid to mention it, because sometimes a new perspective is a fragile thing.
It is subtle, but it's there.

 

[papajim]

Yes, Papajim that answer is correct.

Hebrews 10:22
let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith,
having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our
bodies washed with pure water.

Hello DHC,
You and I agree here, our misunderstanding with Barny is that he does not believe in the imparted righteousness of Christ. If you agree with Barny then you disagree with this post. I just want to understand your point of view clearly.
I'm sorry DHC this did not post the whole message, it is post #116

 

[papajim]

Hello Papajim.

I do not despise the law, I find the national legal system
of Israel fascinating. With all respect to you Papajim, I am
very surprised at your attempt to join this ancient covenant.

In the O.T we are told that the sabbath was given to Israel.
The sabbath was included in the legal system of Israel.
What must be understood Papajim, is that the law was
in the context of a covenant. Israel agreed to the covenant
with God regarding the law. Gentile nations are not and
have never been a party to this covenant.

Exodus 31:16
So the sons of Israel shall observe the sabbath, to celebrate
the sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.

The text states "the sons of Israel" shall observe the sabbath.
As a perpetual covenant!

Exodus 24
7 Then he took the book of the covenant and read it in the hearing of the people;
and they said, “All that the Lord has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient!”
8 So Moses took the blood and sprinkled it on the people, and said,
“Behold the blood of the covenant, which the Lord has made with you in
accordance with all these words."

See Papajim, a covenant, an agreement, signed in blood.
This covenant is between Israel and God, not America
and God. The people of Israel said "All that the Lord has
spoken we will do, and we will be obedient!".

You and I are not members of the nation of Israel, we
are not descendants of Abraham. The Jews are the
descendants of Abraham, the covenant was between
the Jews and God. That is what the text states, ignore
this at your own peril.

I have no problem with the agreement Isreal made with GOD, but this still did not answer my question. Jesus said that the sabbath was made for man, not for Israel or the Jews, but also included them, but it was made for man. Why was it made for man? Do you believe in the imparted righteousness of GOD? This will help you answer the question correctly.
If you had applied this statement in a spiritual sense you would have been on your way to a correct answer, but you applied it to physical Israel so your answer is incorrect. Either way you did not answer the question, "why was it made for man?"
I will give you a clue. If it was made for man then it was a gift.

 

[DHC]

I have no problem with the agreement Isreal made with GOD, but this still did not answer my question. Jesus said that the sabbath was made for man, not for Israel or the Jews, but also included them, but it was made for man. Why was it made for man? Do you believe in the imparted righteousness of GOD? This will help you answer the question correctly.
If you had applied this statement in a spiritual sense you would have been on your way to a correct answer, but you applied it to physical Israel so your answer is incorrect. Either way you did not answer the question, "why was it made for man?"
I will give you a clue. If it was made for man then it was a gift.

Hello Papajim.

Your understanding of the fourth law of the Mosaic covenant
is flawed. Sabbath obedience is a requirement of the national
legal system of Israel. Never does the Bible state that Gentile
nations are under the national legal system of Israel.

Exodus 16, is the first and only occurrence of the institution
of a sabbath day. This is a very short time, months, before
the legislation of the sabbath is enacted by God. Moses and the
Israelites are Hebrews, descendants of Abraham. Circumcision is
also given to the Hebrews and also appears within the law of
Moses. God instituted the sabbath, a law to and solely to the Hebrews.
This is explained in (Exodus 31), it is in this chapter that we discover.
That the sabbath adherence is given only to Israel, here is the text.

Exodus 31
17 It is a sign between Me and the sons of Israel forever;
for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, but on the
seventh day He ceased from labor, and was refreshed.

It is a sign Papajim, a reminder of the covenant between Israel
and God. Not a sign of a covenant between the Gentile nations
and God. Gentiles were never given the sabbath law, it is a
Hebrew law, and it was enforced with a death penalty.
Exodus 31, does not permit the obedience of the sabbath by
a Gentile nation, because it is a unique sign of the covenant.

The seventh day of rest is hallowed by God in Genesis. This
declaration is purely a day of rest. It is not legislation, it does
not imply that man must obey this, it is not a duty in love or
otherwise. The text must be used to support any doctrine
that is offerred. In the case of a sabbath for mankind the
text is silent.

I will show you an example of erroneous theology Papjim.

"The keeping of the Sabbath is a sign of loyalty to the true God"
(Ellen White, The Great Controversy, p. 386).

No where does the Bible state that the sabbath indicates loyalty.
It was a day of rest! A reminder given to Israel of their covenant
and its obligations. In Ellen's mind, the sabbath is important
beyond the legal specification of its occurrence. Ellen has made
an assumption that the sabbath law is eternal. Ellen believes in
the ten commandments and Christ. Ellen is a Gentile, Ellen does
not read the Bible in context. Therefore, Ellen is in error.

Now for one very deep misunderstanding, read the following;

"The Sabbath was kept by Adam in his innocence in holy Eden; by Adam, fallen yet repentant,
when he was driven from his happy estate. It was kept by all the patriarchs, from Abel to righteous Noah,
to Abraham, to Jacob." (Ibid., p. 398).

This is not stated in the Bible, this is pure literary fantasy.

Where the error is most profound is in the statement that
Adam kept the sabbath. Adam and Eve fellowshipped
with the creator seven days a week. There was no specific
day on which to remember a covenant. No specific day for
worship, they were friends with God himself everyday.

Adam did not work in the garden for his food, it grew all
around him. No day of rest was required, as no work was
performed. No ploughing, no reaping, they ate the fruit
that the garden produced. I was deeply shocked to read the
quote above, it is pure legalism. Non biblical, not truth, very
deep error. Pure assumption, an assumption inherent in the
idea that the 10 commandments were eternal. Also, that the
ten commandments represent the character of God.

Honoring the sabbath is a waste of time, it is only a type.
An old testament type that was fulfilled by Jesus Christ.
We now have an eternal rest in Christ, no holy days at all.
Time is not measured from day to day for a Christian, we
are immortal in Christ. We have an eternal perspective on
everything, legalism restricts the tremendous freedom and
liberty granted in Christ.

 

[Barny]

Why all the talk of minimum behaviour?

The reason for this question I continue to ask is because of the consequences for disobedience to the law that the likes of you subtly proclaim.
You speak of love, but, the underlying message is if we don't obey the law then we're condemned/lost.

Note a few quotes I have below from earlier posts.

that is precisely why the law as given! To determine righteousness, to point out sin. The law is a mirror to the heart,....
It is God that demands evidence of our faith. We are judged by our works. ....
Therefore Barny the question is how can obedience to the law not be a requirement under the NT?

Here we see that righteousness is determined/judged by works of the law, according to brakelite.
And whilst I acknowledge that you guys are not directly saying our righteousness is by works of the law, you are indirectly saying it is by the mere fact that you judge yourself as unrighteous unless you have physical evidence of it through works of the law.

Hence my continued questioning on how much evidence is needed to confirm that a Christian is righteous.
I know you have said perfect obedience to the law is required (see quote below). Therefore it's clear that you do not see yourself as righteous (and therefore saved) until you attain that perfect obedience as evidence of righteousness.

braklite and others here seem to be suggesting that God accepts a lessor level of obedience to the law. Hence again I have been asking how much obedience is required?

And in both these doctrines we see the same conclusion that Christians are allegedly not righteous until they have physical evidence of it by works of the law.

This contradicts scripture that says our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5

I'll answer that question for you Barny, it is perfect obedience and that is what we have in Christ. It is also the minimum.

I had asked earlier, regarding your point that we should not limit God in working through us, if you have perfectly obeyed the law since receiving Christ and also do you have any physical ailments since receiving Christ?

I can only use the law of God to judge my own actions and never the actions of others. And if I commit sin the law will tell me that I have departed from the loving arms of Christ and to repent and once again enjoy His loving grace that cleanses me from all unrighteousnss. ..... If the love of God is in me this in itself will fullfill the law and through this wonderful love in me I recieve the fullness of sanctification. It is never something that I do, but always something that is done in me. Through grace and faith I can and will recieve the fullness of Christ so that I can walk as He walked, live as He lived, and overcome as He overcame.

Again, here we see you state that when you sin you are unrighteous. And this is judged by works of the law (just as the Pharisees judged).
And note your last sentence above. You don't see that you have the fullness of Christ, yet.

But scripture contradicts you, saying that:
Our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.
We have been sanctified, Heb 10:10.
We're holy, Rom 11:16.
We're perfected, Heb 10:14.
We cannot sin, 1John 3:9
Col 2:9-10
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power

Having the imputed righteousness of Christ, we are still to live a Godly life. How can we be a peculiar people of we do not? If we look like the world, eat and drink like the world, talk like the world, live like the world, dress like the world and sin like the world, we are of the world. We are to be different than the world, to overcome the world and that which is in the world, and what is in he world that we need to overcome? SIN!.

So here we see that "we are of the world" if we do not have perfect obedience to the law as evidence of so called "imparted" righteousness. Again this confirms that the doctrine you follow says that believers are not righteous until works of the law confirms it.
This is unbelief in Jesus. It denies that our faith is counted for righteousness.

Another thing I find extremly sad is that you don't believe that God imparts love to us, if He did't impart love how could any of us love, how can we love one another if love is not imparted.

We love one another in this imperfect physical world by showing the same love/grace that God showed us. Hence we love/forgive 7x70.

And we love by preaching the true gospel. Believe in Jesus.
And our works (believing in Jesus) shows our faith.
James 2:15-17
If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

So in preaching the true gospel of grace we are, by love, feeding and clothing those who are spiritually destitute.
Remember Christ is our covering.
Christ is our spiritual food and drink,
1Cor 10:3-4
And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

But, if we are preaching a false gospel that mixes grace with works of the law, then this is not loving one another and is also opposing yourself too.


So believers continue to believe in Jesus and do not turn back to the law to determine righteousness.
Col 2:6-10
As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: (we received Christ by faith and thus we continue to walk in him by faith)
Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. (Beware the leaven/doctrine of works of the law, as a little leaven leavens the whole lump, Gal 5:9).

For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Walk by faith, believing in Jesus.

 

[DHC]

Hello all.

It might be an idea to deal with Barny on the very scriptures that he cites.

But scripture contradicts you, saying that:
Our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.
We have been sanctified, Heb 10:10.
We're holy, Rom 11:16.
We're perfected, Heb 10:14.
We cannot sin, 1 John 3:9
Col 2:9-10
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power

I see no error in the scripture that Barny posts.

Matthew 5
20 “For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees,
you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Only in Christ's righteousness do we excel, never in our own.
Why is this? Because we were baptized into Christs death.
We are new people, with a new heart and mind, we have
the mind of Christ. Crucify the flesh! Renew your mind today
and live the new life. Be what you really are in Christ!!!