Birth of Christ
- Thread starter Thorwald
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There is only one answer to the above question. Jesus as 'Lord of Hosts' (part of the Godhead), was implanted in Mary, as an embryo/fetus. Mary's body allowed for the gestation period to take place, before the birth of the Son of Man. Mary is not the 'mother of God', as Roman Catholics believe. She is only the mother of Christ.
hi Thorwald, that is an interesting statement!
In John 14:8, 9, Philip asked Jesus, "show us the Father," to which Jesus replied, "He who has seen Me has seen the Father." Jesus came to the earth not only as a ransom sacrifice to save all repentant mankind, he also can to reveal to man his heavenly father Jehovah God, and show them how to reflect God's qualities. When Jesus said, "He who has seen Me has seen the Father," he was referring to this simple fact. Jesus was a morally perfect reflection of his heavenly father, and if any man wants to strive to reflect God's qualities, all be it in an imperfect manner, they simply have to look to Jesus' life and example he set when on the earth. His, love, kindness, mercy, forgiveness, etc. That is what Jesus was referring to, not some physical form, as God is a spirit, he does not have arms and legs like humans, because they would be redundant in a perfect God who is a spirit creature in heaven. God, Jesus and angels are given humanistic qualities so that we can relate to them, eyes for seeing, ears for hearing and a mouth for speaking. God, the resurrected Jesus and the angels can see, hear and speak, but they do not need humanistic organs to do this as they are spirit creatures in heaven.
In John 14:8, 9, Philip asked Jesus, "show us the Father," to which Jesus replied, "He who has seen Me has seen the Father." Jesus came to the earth not only as a ransom sacrifice to save all repentant mankind, he also can to reveal to man his heavenly father Jehovah God, and show them how to reflect God's qualities. When Jesus said, "He who has seen Me has seen the Father," he was referring to this simple fact. Jesus was a morally perfect reflection of his heavenly father, and if any man wants to strive to reflect God's qualities, all be it in an imperfect manner, they simply have to look to Jesus' life and example he set when on the earth. His, love, kindness, mercy, forgiveness, etc. That is what Jesus was referring to, not some physical form, as God is a spirit, he does not have arms and legs like humans, because they would be redundant in a perfect God who is a spirit creature in heaven. God, Jesus and angels are given humanistic qualities so that we can relate to them, eyes for seeing, ears for hearing and a mouth for speaking. God, the resurrected Jesus and the angels can see, hear and speak, but they do not need humanistic organs to do this as they are spirit creatures in heaven.
Hi Davy. I think you are reading more into this than was intended. The disciples wanted to 'physically' see Jesus' Father. The response of Jesus was specific to their question, only.
Jesus was not created He was begotten as it says in the Nicene Creed.
The Bible indicates Jesus was from the seed not from the embryo:
Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
If Jesus was only implanted as an embryo He could not have been 100% man as well as 100% God...nor could Jesus be genealogically descended from David through Mary, from the House of David and the tribe of Levi.
The word 'created' is also used in the Bible to describe Jesus as Lord of Hosts [ I believe this occurs in Revelation, but I will have to find it again].
Hebrews 2:16 can be interpreted in more than one way. We have to remember, that as Lord of Hosts, He had NO MOTHER. I am certain, that God used His own ***** to create Him in the beginning (thus...begotten of God). We also find, that Adam and Eve were created by God, but Eve was also 'begotten of Adam' (Adam's rib). It appears that the word begat/begotten, refers to the use of one's body in some way to begit/beget another new life.
The Lord of Hosts was not 'destroyed' in the process of becoming the Son of Man. He simply took on 'flesh'. He was still the Lord of Hosts. Jesus had the power to call on His angels at any time, but chose to face the trials He had to face, in order to provide us with a saviour, as instructed by The Lord God Almighty.
Ye he was fully God and fully man. Even though He could call on angels as the Son of God, He chose to face the trials as the Son of man so that it would fulfill the prophecy in Gen 3:15 that the seed of the woman.. man.. would crush satan's head. It is interesting in his temptation by satan in the desert.. satan tempts him to reveal himself and use his powers as the Son of God.. but Christ always replies as the Son of man.
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brakelite
Member
The apostle John wrote that he who did not believe that Christ came in the flesh is antichrist in his thinking. This I believe has greater depth than simply answering the question, 'was Jesus a man?'
A little thought would reveal that if Jesus came to redeem sinful man, then it must be in the likeness of sinful man that he came. Not the seed of the unfallen Adam, but the seed of Abraham, and the offspring of David. Death would have had no power over a sinless man as Adam was before the fall, and death would not have had any power over Christ unless the Father had laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
Also, because Jesus took upon Himself the likeness of sinful flesh, He therefore also accepted the sinful tendencies and weaknesses that are the natural component of fallen man, yet He never in one instant succumbed to that weakness but through faith in the Father overcame all temptations.
Hebrews 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
If He was made like unto His brethren, then He must have been tempted and suffered all the same infirmities of His brethren.
Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Above bold is the very reason for, and the promise of the gospel. Let no-one think that all Jesus came to accomplish was to grant us eternal life.Not at all, He came to give us victory...victory over the flesh, victory over sin...victory over the world.
2 Cor. 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Not our own righteousness which is born in our own feeble attempts to obey the laws of God, but the righteousness of God Himself which is graciously given to us as a gift, enabling us to obey, just as Jesus obeyed.
Ephesians 3:14 ¶ For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
Knowing that Christ came in the likeness of sinful flesh yet was able to live a sinless life due to the divine power abiding in Him, is extremely comforting for man because that same fulness of the Godhead is made available to all men who have the faith to believe and receive. We therefore can live the life of the Lifegiver.
As for the temptation in the wilderness James, that is interesting. And I agree, Satan was tempting Jesus to use His powers and thus involve Him in sin...selfishness. But Jesus hanged tough and trusted in His Father to reveal Him in due time.
This is truly Good News. That Christ defeated satan not as the Son of God, but as one of us, as a perfect sinless man. That we now have the power and ability to overcome because of Him. He could have chosen to defeat satan as God, if he wanted to, but this would not involve man. Since Christ has come to dwell in us by His Spirit, we too can overcome satan.
The key to understanding why God didn't just destroy satan directly Himself, is because He created man for this purpose, to have dominion over all the things on the Earth, including the serpent satan:
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Mankind was maent to conquer and defeat satan, not the other way around.
But satan tricked man and so man became under the dominion of satan. But in Christ God has restored mankind to its original purpose and we now have the victory over satan! God's plan was to become a man , overcome satan as a man, and then come and live within us so that we too can overcome satan.
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The scriptures tell us, that God sent His only begotten Son 'into the world' (made flesh and dwelt among us), and He created all things (along with His Father) but the world knew Him not. The scriptures also refer to Jesus as 'Emanuel' (God with us). So in summary, God (The Lord of Hosts is part of the Godhead) sacrificed Himself through the Son of Man (the Lord of Hosts in the flesh). There was definitely 'something different' about the Lord of Hosts taking on 'flesh' versus a normal birth through conception. This is what I refer to in my original posts. The Lord of Hosts, 'already existed' as Son of God, in the 'express image' of the Lord God Almighty. This did not change, when He also was born as a child of human flesh. This could only occur, if an embryo/fetus was implanted in Mary.
Thorwald: I am "as old as dirt" as my grandson's say, and my mind forgets, it would help me and other's if you gave some Scripture like James does. Also for those who might not know the Bible very well, or forgot where a verse is found. Thank you very much. Blessings
farout (maybe I am 2farout)
I apologize for not writing the scripture(s) location in some of my posts. I have spent over nine years of serious Bible reading, researching, communicating with various ministers of all 'one-God' faiths, attending various Christian churches, debating/discussing on most Christian forums, praying, and so on. In one evening alone, I read through the NT, twice. I could still remember what I had read on the first time through, as I was reading through the second time. I sometimes forget which forum I am on, and what I responded, where. I know most of the NT by heart. I may not remember exact wording, but I know what is written. I am getting old and feeble minded. I will be 64 years of age on Oct 9, 2013. I also debate on several websites and news postings.
Thorwald: You are a young man yet, and it seems a very fast reader too. Blessings
farout
I laughed when I read your post (above). When I was working in Montreal in the early 70's, I would read 6 to 8 western novels in a single day, on the weekends. The 'used books' store would charge 15 cents per book, and when you traded it back in, you got a dime back. They had over 3,000 used western novels. I was there for only 9 months, and eventually, I could not find one that I had not already read. Some I had read before going to Montreal. I even noticed when the same book had been published in the past, using a different book cover. I knew the different authors by heart. When I was young, I read all of the western novels in our local library (Zane Grey was the major author) and also, all of the Hardy Boys series. I love to read. Take care.