Eternal Security

[DutchChristian]

Fallen from grace = lost salvation.

Indeed brother!

And as an example:

If after a person is saved from the curse of the law (Galatians 3:10 and 13) and then again entangles himself to believe to only be "justified" by the law (to think to be able to be justified by it), and so choose to rather walk after their own flesh to be "justified".. rather then to walk in The Spirit of GOD then they have fallen from grace: going back to the law going back to the curse from which they were formerly saved.. for instance: a born again Christian might wander astray and get so entangled with the deceptive HRM movement (Hebrew Roots Movement = dangerous!) and get so involved and wrapped up in this thing and so become so deceived and after a while soon so fervently believe and think that he can only be justified if he were to life after the old mosaic law, indeed then (and if he does not repent) then:

Galatians 5:
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Falling from grace is possible!

And speaking of OSAS: IT IS A LIE!

As:

Salvation could be lost! And if someone would lose salvation then it most certainly won't be God's fault! it will be your own to blame!

Because:

OSAS's overall mentality: "i am saved no matter what" mentality that is the forthcoming corrupt fruit from this wicked false osas doctrine is overal contrary to Scripture AND at the end of the day it's working a corrupt fruit that is: turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and is forming a mentality by default that has an outcome at the end of the day as such: "o i am saved no matter what.." working of this kind of an attitude.. over time in a person... : "what shall I? lose salvation? no no not even if i fornicate , commit adultery, or murder or go nightclubbing stinking fornicating....beer drinking till i get drunk it doesn't matter because i'll only lose my rewards" = a STINKING LIE do not be deceived! don't do it!

Or the lie that supposedly all of our future sins are already forgiven in advance without any repentance and confession made of their sins because they are "supposedly already" covered by The Blood of The Lamb all in advance already for the future no matter what..STINKING LIE!!! And so be so deceived and think that supposedly you could never wilfully out-sin the grace of God no not even if you do sin right out wilfully because God Will forgive me anyway = also a wicked LIE! And that is basically what OSAS doctrine is all about at the end of the day this is what it works! The fruit of this doctrine leads to more and more sin by default. And it's doctrinal nature is HIGHLY deceptive! (But it sounds so nice... comfortable and easy soft spoken ear tingling message sweet as honey to the flesh of man but after a while will sting you and bite you IF you are caught unawares with it, but slowly but surely in the end it will probably eventually will still grab hold of the Christian off-guard and make him to believe it is allright to sin as long as he visits church or any other lie that the devil whispers as the devil will whisper into his ear.... God Will forgive you anyway... LIE! And all that will come eventually by and through this deceptive and false wicked doctrine that is called OSAS) OSAS is a Highly deceptive LIE! Think about it what did the devil say to Eve at the first sin?

Genesis 3
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

OSAS = Ye shall not surely die: SERPENT LIE

And Besides that The Word of GOD does not promote worldliness nor fornication or any such things!

Do not be deceived by OSAS! God His Grace is never to be abused!

And OSAS works that laciviousness in man and carelessness towards sin, and so we must never forget:

That God is HOLY and so must we also be Holy! (1 Peter 1:15-16, also Hebrews 12!) Now there are some that say if you are not for OSAS or the more covert variant of OSAS called: Perseverance of the saints then you must be a legalist and of works salvation, to those let me ask you this question....

Is simple obedience to Gods Word a works salvation?



Be ye sober!

Galatians 5:
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

 

[DutchChristian]

OSAS = "Ye shall not surely die:" it is so deceptive.. why? because it is the devil speaking: OSAS = Ye shall not surely die: = SERPENT LIE Genesis 3:4

But God Said: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Genesis 3:17

See the difference?

 

[james1523]

Those of you who don't believe in OSAS need to learn what it means to be a child of God, and to be born of God, and born of the Spirit, and for the Spirit of God to be joined to the spirit of man, to be one spirit with Him (1 Cor 6:17).

God has said He will never leave nor forsake us (Heb 13:5), and there is no conditions attached with that.

Equating OSAS with the serpent's words in Genesis is a bit far fetched. Jesus Himself said we shall not die.. so is Jesus a serpent? John 11:26.

If your salvation depends upon you, your efforts, then I suppose it is possible to lose it. But you are only losing a shadow of the reality, you are only losing that which you call 'salvation', but which is not of God's power or grace, but your self effort. Denying OSAS is saying that God is too weak to keep us saved until the end!
This is saying it is possible for a child of God to be "unborn", but this is not possible. Once a person has received the Spirit of God a permanent change has taken place, and the only thing the person will lose is rewards and blessings and they may suffer temporal or future punishment. This may be as bad as hellfire but they will be saved in the end, 'as through fire' (1 Cor 3:15).

Paul never denies that the Galatians have the Spirit, and even encourages them to walk in the Spirit (Gal 5:16). For this reason they will not be under law any more if they walk by the Spirit (Gal 5:18). After telling them they have 'fallen from grace', the rest of the chapters is about how to walk in the Spirit. So how can anyone say that fallen from grace = loss of salvation?

In the context of Galatians, falling from grace is not loss of salvation, falling from grace is going back to the law for justification, and results in loss of rewards, but the foundation of Christ remains.

We should learn what is the difference between the foundation and the building (1 Cor 3:15). The foundation is secure and always remains, this foundation is Christ in our spirit.. the building is up to us, this is not secure if we build upon it anything other than Christ. Obedience to Christ is for the building not for securing the foundation which is already laid.

In conclusion, disobeying Christ does result in loss, but it is not loss of salvation, it is loss of reward. It is just as painful as loss of salvation but it is not eternal. The believer does not suffer the same fate as the unbeliever.

 

[B-A-C]

God has said He will never leave nor forsake us (Heb 13:5), and there is no conditions attached with that.

Actually there is a condition. But even though he will never leave or forsake us, he doesn't stop us from leaving him.

1 Tim 4:1; But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

Matt 13:20; "The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;
Matt 13:21; yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.
Matt 13:22; "And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.

Rom 11:18; do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
Rom 11:19; You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
Rom 11:20; Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
Rom 11:21; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either

Matt 5:13; "You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.

1 Tim 1:19; keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith.
1 Tim 5:15; for some have already turned aside to follow Satan.

Gal 1:6; I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;

Psa 69:28; May they be blotted out of the book of life And may they not be recorded with the righteous.

2 Jn 1:8; Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward.
2 Jn 1:9; Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.

Php 2:12; So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;

Heb 3:12; Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.

Rom 1:21; For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:23; and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
Rom 1:25; For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Rom 1:28; And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,

2 Pet 2:20; For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
2 Pet 2:21; For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.

John 10:28; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
John 10:29; "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
No.. no one is more powerful than God, not even Satan himself can snatch someone out of Jesus's hand.
But it doesn't say we aren't free to leave of our own accord.

Jas 5:19; My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back,
Jas 5:20; let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

Heb 6:4; For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5; and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6; and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

1 Cor 9:27; but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

Heb 12:1; Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,

Acts 7:51; "You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.

Rom 8:38; For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
Rom 8:39; nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

...yes God loves us all (even sinners), but the love of God is NOT the salvation of God.

 

[james1523]

Heb 6:4; For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5; and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6; and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

We should look at the first verse to set the context:
Heb 6:1 Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God,

The foundation has already been laid, their salvation is already secure, then rest of the chapter is exhorting them to move on toward perfection and maturity in Christ.

Verse 6 it is impossible for them to repent again, because the foundation has already been laid, they cannot be "reborn" of God.

Heb 6:8 is about being disqualified, as Paul says in 1 Cor 9:27
No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

Being disqualified for the prize is to lose the reward of entering into the kingdom. They lose dispensational reward in the millenial kingdom but not their eternal salvation.

The bible talks about 3-fold salvation of man.. salvation of spirit, salvation of soul, and salvation of body. Some of these verses you have quoted speak of one but not the other, for example this one:
Jas 5:20; let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

This is about a believing brother or sister led astray.. their soul dies but their spirit is still saved.

The spirit is saved by faith, but the soul is saved by faithfulness and works. It is the faithfulness and works that are rewarded, and the reward is salvation of the soul 1 Cor 3:13-15. A man can suffer loss (of soul), but still be saved (in spirit).

Actually there is a condition. But even though he will never leave or forsake us, he doesn't stop us from leaving him.

God never leaves us because He is always in our spirit (for believers). But we may leave Him in the sense that we separate our soul (mind, emotions, will) from Him, this is spiritual death. If your son or daughter leaves you and decides to not speak to you anymore, it doesn't mean they are not your son or daughter any more. Maybe they do bad things and end up being criminals, they are still your son or daughter.

 

[james1523]

Rom 8:38; For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
Rom 8:39; nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

...yes God loves us all (even sinners), but the love of God is NOT the salvation of God.

God's love is not salvation? John 3:16 - it is God's love that He sent His Son to die for us. God's love is the source and purpose of Him saving us, so how can you say they are not related?

But this is the love of God spoken to a saved person who is "in Christ".
"nor any created thing" - includes the believer themselves.
You claim that we can walk away from God and step out of His love.. but this verse says we cannot separate ourselves from God's love.
Is God's love strong enough to save you once but not strong enough to keep you saved?
This love has been poured into our hearts by the Holy Spirit (Romans 5:5)

Romans 8:28-30 shows that we are foreknown, predestined, called, justified and will be glorified.
Psalm 139 shows we are well known by God, and He has already arranged everything so that we will be saved for eternity, even if we try to escape by hiding ourself in darkness, God is still with us. Our eternal destination is secure and nothing and no one, not even ourselves, can take us out of His hand.

The Parable of the lost sheep in Luke 15 tells me that when a sheep wanders off.. the good shepherd goes and finds them and brings them back home.
You must believe that when a sheep wanders off.. the good shepherd lets them go and does not bother to bring them back. This does not sound like a 'good shepherd' to me.

 

[B-A-C]

We should look at the first verse to set the context:
Heb 6:1 Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God,
The foundation has already been laid, their salvation is already secure, then rest of the chapter is exhorting them to move on toward perfection and maturity in Christ.

The foundation is laid, I see nothing about "your salvation is secure", in fact what I see here is...
Heb 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

They have fallen away, after being partakers and receiving the Holy Spirit.

Is God's love strong enough to save you once but not strong enough to keep you saved?
This love has been poured into our hearts by the Holy Spirit (Romans 5:5)

It's not a question of who is stronger. God is of course. But God is a gentleman. He will not force you to stay in a place you do not wish to be.

Romans 8:28-30 shows that we are foreknown, predestined, called, justified and will be glorified.

Rom 8:28; And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
Rom 8:29; For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

Foreknowing the future, is not controlling the choice someone makes.
He foreknew who would accept him, he predestined those who accepted him to be conformed into....
This happens in a very specific order. He didn't predestine those who he foreknew, he foreknew those who he would predestine to become like Christ.

Rom 8:30; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
The specific order continues here.

You and I might have a debate about whether you are going to join the army or not. You might say you're not going to. And I might say, I know you better
than you know yourself, and I know you will join the army, but I didn't make the choice for you, I just knew you were going to do it. By the way, it's predestined
that if you join the army, you will get a crew cut and wear green uniforms.
God doesn't make the choice of who he foreknew would accept Jesus. But once they accepted Jesus, he predestined them to become like Jesus.

 

[B-A-C]

God's love is not salvation? John 3:16 - it is God's love that He sent His Son to die for us. God's love is the source and purpose of Him saving us, so how can you say they are not related?

They are related in the sense that anyone can have salvation. But he loves people regardless of whether they know Jesus or not.

Rom 5:8; But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
1 Jn 2:2; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
1 Jn 4:10; In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Obviously he loved us before Jesus died on the cross and became our propitiation (sacrifice to pay a debt). There couldn't be any "Christians" before Jesus died.
So how is it that he loved them, even though they weren't saved yet. Even today, God loves sinners. But they are still sinners that are going to hell if they don't repent.

 

[DHC]

Hebrews 3
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

There is the true assurance that a believer has in Jesus Christ.
Salvation is guaranteed by God, that if you believe in Jesus you will be saved.

Belief in Jesus is the Gospel after all, but if you become deceived and hardened by sin,
then eventually you do not believe in Jesus anymore. You have not endured, you have
fallen away from the truth!

This verse from Hebrews is a warning, we must encourage each other in Christ everyday.

 

[Barny]

Hebrews 3
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

There is the true assurance that a believer has in Jesus Christ.
Salvation is guaranteed by God, that if you believe in Jesus you will be saved.

Belief in Jesus is the Gospel after all, but if you become deceived and hardened by sin,
then eventually you do not believe in Jesus anymore. You have not endured, you have
fallen away from the truth!

This verse from Hebrews is a warning, we must encourage each other in Christ everyday.

Amen.
Yes, we should always encourage each other to continue to believe in Jesus.

Note also Heb 12:1,2
Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith,

Here we see the race we are in, and we should encourage each other also to win.
To believe in Jesus unto the end is to win that race.
But to be ensnared by the sin of unbelief (John 16:9) is to lose that race.

Note also the same warning in Heb 12:15-17.
looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled; lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright. For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears.

How does one fall short of the grace of God?
Unbelief in Jesus.
Here's an example of such unbelief, resulting in failing God's grace.
Gal 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Hence we should always encourage each other like we see in Gal 5:1.
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

 

[james1523]

They are related in the sense that anyone can have salvation. But he loves people regardless of whether they know Jesus or not.

Rom 5:8; But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
1 Jn 2:2; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
1 Jn 4:10; In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Obviously he loved us before Jesus died on the cross and became our propitiation (sacrifice to pay a debt). There couldn't be any "Christians" before Jesus died.
So how is it that he loved them, even though they weren't saved yet. Even today, God loves sinners. But they are still sinners that are going to hell if they don't repent.

But Romans 8:38-39 is spoken to believers, saints, not sinners. Nothing can separate the believer from God's love. Obviously sin separates an unbeliever from God's love, they do not receive it and cannot know it. But nothing ever separates the believer from God's love. This would be to say that the Holy Spirit leaves a believer once they sin. How many sins and how much disobedience does it take for the Holy Spirit to leave you, never to return? One sin, two sins, 100 sins?

 

[james1523]

The foundation is laid, I see nothing about "your salvation is secure", in fact what I see here is...
Heb 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

They have fallen away, after being partakers and receiving the Holy Spirit.

The context is fallen away from grace, from the foundation, from the living Lord, not from eternal salvation. To fall away from Him is to lose your fellowship with Him, but you are forever His child as long as you were truly born again.

The foundation is Christ dwelling in the believer's spirit. It is the union between the Holy Spirit and the human spirit. You cannot undo what has already been birthed within you. The only thing for you to do is to grow unto maturity in life. A baby once it is born, cannot go back into its mothers womb, it cannot 'unborn' itself. The only option for it is to grow unto maturity. This is the context of Paul's letter.

It's not a question of who is stronger. God is of course. But God is a gentleman. He will not force you to stay in a place you do not wish to be.

If you have a child who runs away from you.. only a bad parent would not chase after them and do all they could to bring them home. "God is a gentleman" is not really a concept found in the Bible. God is a good shepherd, He goes after the lost sheep, He leaves the 99 to find the one lost one.

Rom 8:28; And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
Rom 8:29; For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

Foreknowing the future, is not controlling the choice someone makes.
He foreknew who would accept him, he predestined those who accepted him to be conformed into....
This happens in a very specific order. He didn't predestine those who he foreknew, he foreknew those who he would predestine to become like Christ.

Rom 8:30; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
The specific order continues here.

You and I might have a debate about whether you are going to join the army or not. You might say you're not going to. And I might say, I know you better
than you know yourself, and I know you will join the army, but I didn't make the choice for you, I just knew you were going to do it. By the way, it's predestined
that if you join the army, you will get a crew cut and wear green uniforms.
God doesn't make the choice of who he foreknew would accept Jesus. But once they accepted Jesus, he predestined them to become like Jesus.

But 1 Jn 4:19 says we love God because He loved us first. Those who love God are those whom God has loved first, calling and predestining them unto sonship through Jesus Christ.

Christ came to the fishermen first and said " follow me", they did not come to Him.

God's calling always precedes our salvation.

Who determined the place where you would be born? Acts 17:26
Who ordained all the days you would live on the Earth?

Psalm 139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed body;
all the days ordained for me were written in your book
before one of them came to be.

God had already planned and determined every detail of your life before you were even born.
God's presence is strong and secure, and He never lets us go:
Psalm 139:5 You hem me in behind and before, and you lay your hand upon me.

The bible does not teach predestination after accepting Christ, it teaches predestination before we were even born!

Much of what we think is necessary for salvation, really isn't.
You can lose your church
you can lose your friends or family
you can lose your doctrines
you can lose your bible
you can lose your prayer life
you can lose your good behavior
But you cannot lose the presence of God in your life, as long as you were truly born of Him.

If we are faithless, He remains faithful, because He cannot deny Himself.. that is, He cannot deny who you are in Him, a child of God:
2 Tim 2:13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

Nebuchadnezzar learnt the hard way (God caused him to eat grass like a cow) that God is sovereign and in control of all people and all things:
Daniel 4:35 All the people of the earth are nothing compared to him. He does as he pleases among the angels of heaven and among the people of the earth. No one can stop him or say to him, 'What do you mean by doing these things?'

The apostle Paul also learnt (by his conversion experience) that God is sovereign and in control of all things (Romans 9:19-20).

Only a person who doesn't know God would say that He does not control who is saved and who is not. If God controls where and when we are born, how much more does He control when, if and how we are saved?

False Christianity teaches that salvation is because of man's effort, knowledge, wisdom, luck , chance or privilege, and because salvation is because of man.. this salvation can also be lost because of man.
True Christianity teaches that Christians are foreknown, predestined and called by God unto sonship , they are the objects of His love and no one can take them out of His hands. Although they may stumble, they will not fall completely, because God holds their hand Ps 37:24. Salvation is of God not of man, for this reason if God chooses to save you, your salvation is secure and nothing can change that. Rather than being insecure about our salvation and our own failed attempts to keep it, we can be secure in the fact that salvation is of God, it never depended upon us, and every day is in His book and whatever good work He starts, He finishes and brings to full end.

You do not have to worry about losing God, because God will never let go of you. The foundation is sure and strong, you can jump, stomp, or try and shake the foundation, but the foundation is Christ Himself, and cannot be shaken. If you were saved and lost your salvation, then the gates of hell have prevailed against the church, but Matt 16:18 says the gates of hell cannot prevail, this is because they are founded on the crucified Christ. Just as Christ cannot be "uncrucified", you who were crucified with Him, cannot be uncrucified, cannot be "unborn again".

 

[B-A-C]

Christ came to the fishermen first and said " follow me", they did not come to Him.
God's calling always precedes our salvation.

11 of the 12 apostles stayed with him until the end. One went over to "the dark side".
Acts 1:18; (Now this man acquired a field with the price of his wickedness, and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his intestines gushed out.
Acts 1:19; And it became known to all who were living in Jerusalem; so that in their own language that field was called Hakeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)

But he also called 70 others. Luke 10:1; Luke 10:17;
Most of them left him.
John 6:66; As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.

Matt 22:14; "For many are called, but few are chosen."
John 1:12; But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
Giving someone the right to do something, isn't forcing them to do it.

2 Tim 2:13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

Every Christian has moments of doubt and weak faith. Read through Psalms and see how often David did. He will always remain faithful it's true.
Even when we doubt, but he won't force us to stay with him if we choose to walk away. He will try to persuade us to stay. But some will have hardened hearts.
We are able to resist God and his Spirit, not because we are stronger, but because he gives us freedom of choice.

Ever wonder why God put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden? Some people think it was stupid of God to do this. The reason he did it was so
that man could make his own choice. God could have just as easily not put the tree there. Even Jesus had a choice, he didn't have to die on the cross.
Matt 26:52; Then Jesus *said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword.
Matt 26:53; "Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels?

it never depended upon us

Calvinist error. We make the choice, he controls the circumstances. We are able to resist it.
Acts 7:51; "You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.
Eze 3:7; yet the house of Israel will not be willing to listen to you, since they are not willing to listen to Me. Surely the whole house of Israel is stubborn and obstinate.
Rom 10:21; But as for Israel He says, "ALL THE DAY LONG I HAVE STRETCHED OUT MY HANDS TO A DISOBEDIENT AND OBSTINATE PEOPLE."

All through the Bible God reaches out to people. Some accept him, some resist him. He doesn't turn any away. Some of us just choose not to follow him.

Jos 24:15; "If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

 

[james1523]

11 of the 12 apostles stayed with him until the end. One went over to "the dark side".
Acts 1:18; (Now this man acquired a field with the price of his wickedness, and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his intestines gushed out.
Acts 1:19; And it became known to all who were living in Jerusalem; so that in their own language that field was called Hakeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)

But he also called 70 others. Luke 10:1; Luke 10:17;
Most of them left him.
John 6:66; As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.

Matt 22:14; "For many are called, but few are chosen."
John 1:12; But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
Giving someone the right to do something, isn't forcing them to do it.

They left Him because they weren't chosen (Matt 22:14). Jn 17:12 - Judas was destined to perish, to fulfill the prophecies.
Matt 22:14 says we are chosen, who does the choosing, yourself? Did you choose to be saved? or did God choose you to be saved? Did you choose when Jesus would die on the cross? Did you choose to be born when and where you were born? Why did the gospel spread in such a limited way, starting in Jerusalem, and spreading throughout Europe and the middle east over time? Why the gospel never came to those in China and other places until later? Why it took 1400 years after Christ for the gospel to reach the Americas? It is not hard to see that God saves people according to His choice, His way and His timing, not our own. In other words.. you cannot choose God unless He chooses you first. And if you choose to accept Him, then He is bound by His faithfulness to complete the good work He starts in you.

Every Christian has moments of doubt and weak faith. Read through Psalms and see how often David did. He will always remain faithful it's true.
Even when we doubt, but he won't force us to stay with him if we choose to walk away. He will try to persuade us to stay. But some will have hardened hearts.
We are able to resist God and his Spirit, not because we are stronger, but because he gives us freedom of choice.

Ever wonder why God put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden? Some people think it was stupid of God to do this. The reason he did it was so
that man could make his own choice. God could have just as easily not put the tree there. Even Jesus had a choice, he didn't have to die on the cross.
Matt 26:52; Then Jesus *said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword.
Matt 26:53; "Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels?

The resisting you are talking about is a temporary vain resistance. Rom 9:19 and Isaiah 14:27 says who can resist God's will? In other words.. no one can resist God's will. I think Job and Nebuchadnezzar and many others, learnt that God cannot be resisted and He does whatever He wills, any resistance against Him is futile and He always wins in the end.

Calvinist error. We make the choice, he controls the circumstances. We are able to resist it.
Acts 7:51; "You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.
Eze 3:7; yet the house of Israel will not be willing to listen to you, since they are not willing to listen to Me. Surely the whole house of Israel is stubborn and obstinate.
Rom 10:21; But as for Israel He says, "ALL THE DAY LONG I HAVE STRETCHED OUT MY HANDS TO A DISOBEDIENT AND OBSTINATE PEOPLE."

All through the Bible God reaches out to people. Some accept him, some resist him. He doesn't turn any away. Some of us just choose not to follow him.

Jos 24:15; "If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

God will not force anyone. But He does control our environment. I agree God gives us the choice and we have free will to choose Him, but this is only after He first chooses us. You did not control the events that resulted in your salvation. You did not control by your choice, when , where and how Jesus would die on the cross for your sins. And once we accept and choose Him, we cannot 'undo' our salvation just as we cannot undo our own skin color, height, hair color etc.
I am glad you raised the point about the tree of knowledge of good and evil.. well Adam and Eve ate of the fruit and they could not undo their choice.. and if we eat the tree of life (Christ), by choosing Christ, this cannot be undone either. Once Adam and Eve ate of knowledge they received permanent death..no one and nothing could change that until Christ...and likewise.. once we eat of life , we receive permanent life. The eternal life God gives us is secure and permanent. If you can lose the life you gained when you believed in Christ, then it is not eternal life.

I am interested to know what degree of unbelief , sin or disobedience from your child would it take for you to disown your own child? If you have one, or would have one. What degree of sin or disobedience or unbelief does it take for God to disown His child? Remembering that God is more good than any earthly parent.

 

[DHC]

Hello all.

In an earlier post a reference was made to Romans 8:29-30, a classic passage used
in theology to support certain ideas regarding election.

A very difficult passage to understand, a passage that has often
been a point of contention within Christian history. I will provide
one interpretation to illustrate that there are different ways to read
Romans 8:29-30.

So how do we render Romans 8:29-30?

We will examine another passage in Paul's letter to the Romans first, this hopefully should provide the appropriate context.
Thereby allowing us to render Romans 8 correctly, and understand what Paul is saying.

Romans 11
2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew.

There should be no illusion about what Paul is explaining in this passage. Those God foreknew He elected, simple
and straight forward. God has not rejected those He foreknew, make no mistake, the meaning is crystal clear.

God has not rejected the descendants of Abraham by birth, the Jews. (chapter 11)

So the usage of "foreknew" in Romans 11:2, means those 'He formerly knew'. Now that we understand
the usage of the word "foreknew" we may back track to Romans 8. No need of a Biblical dictionary, context
has provided the meaning of "foreknew".

I will present Romans 8:29-30 in its initial format, then with the appropriate contextual substitutions.

Romans 8
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be
the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called,
He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Romans 8 (contextual format)
29 For the Jews whom He formerly knew, He in addition did predestine the Jews to become conformed to the image of His Son,
so that He would be the firstborn among the Jews and Gentiles; 30 and the Jews whom He predestined, He also called;
and the Jews whom He called, He also justified; and the Jews whom He justified, He also glorified.

After all, what is the subject Paul is discussing in the letter to the Romans?

There are a number of ways to read Romans 8:29-30, be careful which variation
you choose. If anyone is interested I have more information on the subject of election.

 

[james1523]

Hello all.

In an earlier post a reference was made to Romans 8:29-30, a classic passage used
in theology to support certain ideas regarding election.

A very difficult passage to understand, a passage that has often
been a point of contention within Christian history. I will provide
one interpretation to illustrate that there are different ways to read
Romans 8:29-30.

So how do we render Romans 8:29-30?

We will examine another passage in Paul's letter to the Romans first, this hopefully should provide the appropriate context.
Thereby allowing us to render Romans 8 correctly, and understand what Paul is saying.

Romans 11
2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew.

There should be no illusion about what Paul is explaining in this passage. Those God foreknew He elected, simple
and straight forward. God has not rejected those He foreknew, make no mistake, the meaning is crystal clear.

God has not rejected the descendants of Abraham by birth, the Jews. (chapter 11)

So the usage of "foreknew" in Romans 11:2, means those 'He formerly knew'. Now that we understand
the usage of the word "foreknew" we may back track to Romans 8. No need of a Biblical dictionary, context
has provided the meaning of "foreknew".

I will present Romans 8:29-30 in its initial format, then with the appropriate contextual substitutions.

Romans 8
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be
the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called,
He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Romans 8 (contextual format)
29 For the Jews whom He formerly knew, He in addition did predestine the Jews to become conformed to the image of His Son,
so that He would be the firstborn among the Jews and Gentiles; 30 and the Jews whom He predestined, He also called;
and the Jews whom He called, He also justified; and the Jews whom He justified, He also glorified.

After all, what is the subject Paul is discussing in the letter to the Romans?

There are a number of ways to read Romans 8:29-30, be careful which variation
you choose. If anyone is interested I have more information on the subject of election.

It's an interesting way to interpret a chapter that seems reasonably simple to understand if you start from verse 1.. I would of thought to gain the context requires reading from verse 1 rather than inserting ideas from chapter 11. I don't know about this interpretation, it seems to suggest that only the Jews are foreknown and the Gentiles are not?

Anyway Chapter 11 has further proof on God's election and calling.. firstly 11:4 shows it is God Himself who reserves for Himself a select number of people.. vs 5-7 confirms it is by grace not works.. that is, entirely based upon God's favor and intention, not their own works.. and vs 8 confirms that it is God who gave them a spirit of slumber, so they could not see nor hear. God did this to allow the Gentiles to be saved, and provoke Israel to jealousy (vs 11).

 

[DHC]

It's an interesting way to interpret a chapter that seems reasonably simple to understand if you start from verse 1.. I would of thought to gain the context requires reading from verse 1 rather than inserting ideas from chapter 11. I don't know about this interpretation, it seems to suggest that only the Jews are foreknown and the Gentiles are not?

I must agree with you on this point James, I submitted a rather brief post.
It was also unclear, I had trouble understanding the post myself. So with
a touch more explanation and a more logical structure, I submit the revised version.

As I stated earlier, the difficulty with understanding Romans 8:29 is identifying
whom Paul is referring to. A brief glance at this verse without any context
considered would be that Paul is referring to the chosen, the elect.
For example a Calvinist would see this as a proof text for the sovereign
election of those chosen by God from all eternity. Others would highlight
that "those" are elect only in Christ, that Christ is the predetermined entity.
Still others would draw attention to strict context and conclude that the
group "those" are specifically the Jews. And so on.

So here is the verse in Question.

Romans 8
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image
of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

I will draw your attention to the first part of this verse.

"For those whom He foreknew".

Which group of people is Paul referring to with the word "those".
The word is plural not singular. Is it the elect, the Gentiles, the Jews,
or both the Jew and Gentile?

In order to isolate the possible reference "those" and identify just
who it is Paul is talking about in Romans 8:29. We need to understand
another word in this passage.

Paul uses the word "foreknew" which seems to place the emphasis
on a specific group, i.e., the nation of Israel. I will support this
statement, please read on.

The meaning of "foreknew" from Strong's Concordance.

foreknew
4267. προγινώσκω (proginóskó) -- to know beforehand

One interpretation is "those" are the Jews that God previously had
dealings with, the descendants of Abraham, physical Israel.

The word "foreknew" only has one other occurrence in the N.T.

Romans 11:2
2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew.

Interesting that in Romans 11, the same phrase is repeated,
but with a very interesting clarification. Paul repeats the phrase
from Romans 8:29, but inserts "His people". It is undeniable that Paul
is directly naming the Jews as "those", the people God previously knew!

Anyone with an alternative understanding of Romans 8:29 would do
well to note this usage of "foreknew" in Romans 11:2.

So we proceed further and consult the context that surrounds this
passage, Romans 8:29. First we check the context of Romans chapters
9,10 and 11.

God's righteousness and God dealing with the chose nation of physical Israel.
This is a straight forward reading, so we could easily assume that Paul is discussing
in Romans 8:29, the subject of the Jews.

Are the preceding chapters to Romans 8 concerned with the nation of Israel,
the Jews? Will context enforce the defining of the word "those" as the Jews.

Chapters 5, 6, and 7 deal specifically with a righteousness not derived
for the law (Law of Moses). But the righteousness derived, granted to
us by faith in Christ. Paul constantly refers to the Law of Moses
and the higher gift of righteousness by faith. In Romans 7, the Hebrew
of Hebrews, cries out for the release from this body of death. This body
of death resulted from his failure to address obedience to the law of coveting.
Paul is subjective in Romans 7, Paul was under the law, a pharisee, a Jew.

Context preceding is the righteous in Christ as opposed to the law.

I believe it is ultimately impossible to establish which group Paul means in Romans 8.
Though it is highly likely that it may very well be the Jews.

So the probable reading would be as follows.

Romans 8 (paraphrased)
29 For those God had previously known, God in addition to the Gentiles
predestined the Jews to become conformed to Christ.

This interpretation is the contextual reading and explains the next three chapters.

Is that a better attempt James?

 

[james1523]

I must agree with you on this point James, I submitted a rather brief post.
It was also unclear, I had trouble understanding the post myself. So with
a touch more explanation and a more logical structure, I submit the revised version.

As I stated earlier, the difficulty with understanding Romans 8:29 is identifying
whom Paul is referring to. A brief glance at this verse without any context
considered would be that Paul is referring to the chosen, the elect.
For example a Calvinist would see this as a proof text for the sovereign
election of those chosen by God from all eternity. Others would highlight
that "those" are elect only in Christ, that Christ is the predetermined entity.
Still others would draw attention to strict context and conclude that the
group "those" are specifically the Jews. And so on.

So here is the verse in Question.

Romans 8
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image
of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

I will draw your attention to the first part of this verse.

"For those whom He foreknew".

Which group of people is Paul referring to with the word "those".
The word is plural not singular. Is it the elect, the Gentiles, the Jews,
or both the Jew and Gentile?

In order to isolate the possible reference "those" and identify just
who it is Paul is talking about in Romans 8:29. We need to understand
another word in this passage.

Paul uses the word "foreknew" which seems to place the emphasis
on a specific group, i.e., the nation of Israel. I will support this
statement, please read on.

The meaning of "foreknew" from Strong's Concordance.

foreknew
4267. προγινώσκω (proginóskó) -- to know beforehand

One interpretation is "those" are the Jews that God previously had
dealings with, the descendants of Abraham, physical Israel.

The word "foreknew" only has one other occurrence in the N.T.

Romans 11:2
2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew.

Interesting that in Romans 11, the same phrase is repeated,
but with a very interesting clarification. Paul repeats the phrase
from Romans 8:29, but inserts "His people". It is undeniable that Paul
is directly naming the Jews as "those", the people God previously knew!

Anyone with an alternative understanding of Romans 8:29 would do
well to note this usage of "foreknew" in Romans 11:2.

So we proceed further and consult the context that surrounds this
passage, Romans 8:29. First we check the context of Romans chapters
9,10 and 11.

God's righteousness and God dealing with the chose nation of physical Israel.
This is a straight forward reading, so we could easily assume that Paul is discussing
in Romans 8:29, the subject of the Jews.

Are the preceding chapters to Romans 8 concerned with the nation of Israel,
the Jews? Will context enforce the defining of the word "those" as the Jews.

Chapters 5, 6, and 7 deal specifically with a righteousness not derived
for the law (Law of Moses). But the righteousness derived, granted to
us by faith in Christ. Paul constantly refers to the Law of Moses
and the higher gift of righteousness by faith. In Romans 7, the Hebrew
of Hebrews, cries out for the release from this body of death. This body
of death resulted from his failure to address obedience to the law of coveting.
Paul is subjective in Romans 7, Paul was under the law, a pharisee, a Jew.

Context preceding is the righteous in Christ as opposed to the law.

I believe it is ultimately impossible to establish which group Paul means in Romans 8.
Though it is highly likely that it may very well be the Jews.

So the probable reading would be as follows.

Romans 8 (paraphrased)
29 For those God had previously known, God in addition to the Gentiles
predestined the Jews to become conformed to Christ.

This interpretation is the contextual reading and explains the next three chapters.

Is that a better attempt James?

Yes it makes more sense now, thanks. But the interpretation of "those" makes it confusing.. "Those who live according to the flesh" must also refer only to the Jews. Similarly for those who walk in the Spirit. So only the Jews have problem with the flesh and can walk in the Spirit?

For me the simplest interpretation is that God foreknows all people. God is outside of space and time.
Remember that God foreknew Abraham/Abram and called him from the pagan gentile nations. So the meaning of foreknowledge must include both Jew and Gentile.

 

[james1523]

Regarding the question of "can you lose your salvation" I believe this is an incorrect and loaded question.

Firstly salvation is not yours, it is of Christ, so it is nothing you have done yourself to earn it. Secondly you cannot lose something that is not yours.

If you save yourself, you can lose it, but if God saves you, you cannot lose it. The bible teaches that salvation is started from God, came from God, is of God, is by God, through God, in God, and with God, and most importantly for God.

We might like to think we have some part in our salvation.. our believing, our repentance. But is this even ours? Who enabled you to believe? You revealed to you your sins so you could repent? Who prayed for you so that your eyes could be opened? Who told you the gospel or gave you a bible?

We like to think we are in charge of our own life and that our salvation is something we earn, and have to keep. But the reality is that God foreknows, predestines, calls, and does everything. For this reason we will thank God and praise Him even more for being 'I AM' and 'all in all' to us.

The sovereignty, omniscience and omnipresence of God is something that men have argued and rebelled against for centuries. But sometimes God has to give us a Job or a Nebuchadnezzar experience to bring us to nothing, to show us who really is in control of the universe, and all things, even every hair on our head falling to the ground, and every sparrow God feeds and every blade of grass that God clothes.

The bible teaches that God is sovereign and in control of all things:
Daniel 4:35 All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: "What have you done?"

How much of a "gentleman' was God when he stripped away Jobs possessions and brought him to nothing? How much of a 'gentelman' was God when he allowed Jonah to be swallowed by the big fish, or caused Nebuchadnezzar to eat grass like a cow? This view that God is a gentleman and won't 'force' is actually not always correct. God is the most powerful and strongest force in the universe,

God's sovereignty and control is universal, it is not restricted only to His people or the Jews or Israelites.

This control is not a passive, watching, foreknowing, or laid back thing.. God is actively involved in all things. This is not meant to be something to be argued against, or seen as a bondage or something to be feared.. this is meant to be a comfort to us.

God has chosen to work through men and in men, and we can hinder or delay God's purpose, as he gives us the freedom to choose, but we can never 'undo' His will. If He has saved us for 30 years.. we cannot 'undo' the past 30 years and become an unsaved person again. It is as impossible as a grown man re-entering his mother's womb to be 'unborn'.

 

[Eric E Stahl]

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5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

6 So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.

I was bought by the blood of Jesus. I do not belong to my self any more. As a slave can't choose to be free I can't choose to be unbought.