Matthew 12:40

[DHC]

Hello James, sorry for the delay.

Where have the sabbatarians gone, it seems to be just you and me left. You must have upset
them as it would not have been my posts.

The contradiction is that John 19:14 says Jesus is still before Pilate at noon (the 6th hour).
Yet Mark 15:25 says that Jesus was crucified at the 3rd hour (9 am) and died at 3pm. I believe Mark says this because the passover lamb was bound to the altar at 9 am, and killed at 3pm and uses these same times to show that Jesus was the passover lamb. In other words, the hours in Mark 15:25 are symbolic, but the time given in John 19:14 is actual time. It was common to approximate times to the nearest 3 hour period, and this is what Mark does in this case, but not for the sake of approximation, but to show symbolically that Jesus is the passover lamb (1 Cor 5:7).

Actually James, all three synoptic Gospels have the death of Christ at 3pm.
John may have been using Roman time, hence the sixth hour is in fact 6am.
John's Gospel is the additional information that the other Gospels did not record.

Darkness fell somewhere between 6 pm and 9 pm (coinciding (approximately) with Christ's death).
Why should darkness fall when Christ was not dead yet? The temple was not torn whilst Jesus was alive, neither should there be darkness.
A lunar eclipse occurred on Friday 3 April 33 AD between 6 pm and 9 pm in middle eastern local time. Again, 6 and 9 pm are approximate.

Negative James, the three synoptic Gospels record the time of darkness between 12-00am and 3-00pm.

Darkness did in fact fall during the dying and the death of Christ.

A lunar eclipse may have nothing to do with the events of the day, this is assumed by you.

God does not give supernatural signs without the natural elements He created, but uses the elements that he created for signs (planets, stars, rainbows etc) (Gen 1:14, Luke 21:25, Matt 16:1-4).
In other words, God would not cause darkness miraculously without a scientific explanation.

God does provide miracles without natural entities involved.
Once again the assumption that God plays by certain rules.
Raising the dead does not have a scientific or natural explanation.

Who said there had to an eclipse for darkness to occur?

 

[james1523]

Hello James, sorry for the delay.

Where have the sabbatarians gone, it seems to be just you and me left. You must have upset
them as it would not have been my posts.

Hi DHC... no need to apologise i'm easy. ha! Or maybe we utterly convinced them

Actually James, all three synoptic Gospels have the death of Christ at 3pm.
John may have been using Roman time, hence the sixth hour is in fact 6am.
John's Gospel is the additional information that the other Gospels did not record.

A few issues with this one DHC. The KJV and most if not all? bible translations use Hebrew time in the book of John. A difficulty with the Roman time view is inconsistency - e.g. John 1:39 in Roman time is 10 am.. which is not "spending the day" with someone.. but in Hebrew time is 4 pm which is the logically correct time. The John 11:9 statement that there are "12 hours in a day" suggests John used Hebrew time.

Another issue is that Jesus went through a number of stages in Jewish and Roman courts, going back and forwards between the various judges and rulers, so 6 am is far too early for this to occur. Common sense!

The 6 am view would have us believe that the courts and all those involved (e.g about 71 members, 23 judges in the Jewish court alone) stayed up through the night especially for Jesus.
The Jewish Council had set times for meeting, they did not start until about 9 am I think.
I doubt that any Jewish or Roman magistrates would have started before 9 am. Just like no court house will be open before 9-10 am or after 4-5 pm in our society. *Maybe* the Jews wanted Jesus dead so badly that they made an exception.. but the Romans who didn't find fault with Him?
There is no reason why they would make a special occasion for Jesus, staying up the whole night, or convening so early in the morning.

Negative James, the three synoptic Gospels record the time of darkness between 12-00am and 3-00pm.

Darkness did in fact fall during the dying and the death of Christ.

A lunar eclipse may have nothing to do with the events of the day, this is assumed by you.

Based on Gen 1:14 and Luke 21:25 we should take note of the signs in the heavens more carefully.
There is no such thing as "coincidence" with God.
Darkness could have occurred from 12 to 3 pm, but it must have a verifiable cause rather than "it just happened".

God does provide miracles without natural entities involved.
Once again the assumption that God plays by certain rules.
Raising the dead does not have a scientific or natural explanation.

Who said there had to an eclipse for darkness to occur?

God *could* have turned stones into bread too.... and God *could* stop one from falling if they decide to jump off a cliff..
But God plays by the rules that He Himself determined. For example Gen 1:14 says God created the natural elements for signs, and Luke 21:25 states signs with the sun, moon and stars will occur. So God has already told us how He will give signs - using natural, recognizable, well-known and visible elements, and not "supernatural" and vague obscurities like a water mark or toilet bowl stain looking like the face of Jesus or Mary.
In the case of resurrection - the natural entity involved is the human body. God causes the body to heal and repair itself. Remember Jesus's body bore the scars of His crucifixion, indicating that His wounds were healed by His body. Even the Son of God, who is the only one who can create something out of nothing.. allowed his own body to heal His wounds.

God's creative work finished after 6 days DHC, so to "create" darkness out of nothing, is violating this principle of God's finished work on the 7th day (Sabbatarians might agree on this?)

So God is not usually going to create a giant teddy bear or something in the sky for a sign, He will use what He has already created. E.g. when God brought the plagues onto Egypt, He used frogs, flies, locusts, and red algae (river turning to blood), all natural elements with naturally verifiable explanations.
If God wants to cause darkness I think He either causes a solar eclipse or lunar eclipse or something like that. Darkness will be caused by the sun going down or the sun being obscured.
We should not have "darkness" without a reasonable cause - an eclipse, a dust storm.. etc.

 

[DHC]

Another issue is that Jesus went through a number of stages in Jewish and Roman courts, going back and forwards between the various judges and rulers, so 6 am is far too early for this to occur. Common sense!
The 6 am view would have us believe that the courts and all those involved (e.g about 71 members, 23 judges in the Jewish court alone) stayed up through the night especially for Jesus.
The Jewish Council had set times for meeting, they did not start until about 9 am I think.
I doubt that any Jewish or Roman magistrates would have started before 9 am. Just like no court house will be open before 9-10 am or after 4-5 pm in our society. *Maybe* the Jews wanted Jesus dead so badly that they made an exception.. but the Romans who didn't find fault with Him?

There is no reason why they would make a special occasion for Jesus, staying up the whole night, or convening so early in the morning.

So God has already told us how He will give signs - using natural, recognizable, well-known and visible elements, and not "supernatural" and vague obscurities like a water mark or toilet bowl stain looking like the face of Jesus or Mary.

Hello James.

It's just not the same without the sabbatarians, how do we entice them
back James? How about we have a promotion, every 10th sabbatarian
to post on this thread receives a prize.

Back to the thread, we have some issues regarding chronology to deal with
James.

You remarked that the transfer of Jesus to and fro between the Jewish
and Roman courts would take considerable time?

If you read the accounts of the trial of Jesus it was not conducted in
different courts at all. Jesus was condemned at the residence of the high priest.
Then abruptly taken to Pilate after dawn for the sentence of death. Then to
Herod and back to Pilate. We also know that the fate of Jesus had been
decided way before His arrest in the garden.

The sripture is clear that Jesus was crucified at midday. I have abbreviated
the account of the arrest and trial of Jesus in Mark's Gospel. This proves that
the trial of Jesus occured at night and that Jesus was given to Pilate at dawn.


Mark 14
30 Truly, I say to you, this very night, before the rooster crows twice...
54 And Peter had followed him...and warming himself at the fire....
63 ...High Priest...
64 ...what is your decision..
64 ...And they all condemned him as deserving death.
72 And immediately the rooster crowed a second time.

Luke 22
56 And a servant-girl, seeing him as he sat in the firelight and looking intently at him,

This trial was at night, this is very clear James, the trial was not
in a court at 9-00 am, but at the residence of the high priest.


Now at what time was Jesus given into Pilate's hands?

Mark 15 (RSV)
15 And as soon as it was morning...delivered him to Pilate.

Soon after the sun had risen, Jesus was given over to Pilate for
the final decision on his fate. If this event occurred in April then
sunrise was about 5-30 am. Jesus was crucified at the sixth hour in
Hebrew time or 12-00am in Roman time. There was an interval of five
to six hours for Pilate and Herod to deal with Jesus. After all James,
Jesus was seen as a political and religous activist and had to be dealt
with firmly and quickly.

Jesus died at the ninth hour or 3pm as recorded in the three Gospels.

As for God only using natural phenomonen for signs and miracles.

I would welcome your naturalistic explanation of the following;

Exodus 13:21
The Lord was going before them in a pillar of cloud by day to lead them on the way,
and in a pillar of fire by night to give them light, that they might travel by day and by night.

A pillar of fire by night?

 

[james1523]

Hello James.

It's just not the same without the sabbatarians, how do we entice them
back James? How about we have a promotion, every 10th sabbatarian
to post on this thread receives a prize.

Back to the thread, we have some issues regarding chronology to deal with
James.

You remarked that the transfer of Jesus to and fro between the Jewish
and Roman courts would take considerable time?

If you read the accounts of the trial of Jesus it was not conducted in
different courts at all. Jesus was condemned at the residence of the high priest.
Then abruptly taken to Pilate after dawn for the sentence of death. Then to
Herod and back to Pilate. We also know that the fate of Jesus had been
decided way before His arrest in the garden.

The sripture is clear that Jesus was crucified at midday. I have abbreviated
the account of the arrest and trial of Jesus in Mark's Gospel. This proves that
the trial of Jesus occured at night and that Jesus was given to Pilate at dawn.


Mark 14
30 Truly, I say to you, this very night, before the rooster crows twice...
54 And Peter had followed him...and warming himself at the fire....
63 ...High Priest...
64 ...what is your decision..
64 ...And they all condemned him as deserving death.
72 And immediately the rooster crowed a second time.

Luke 22
56 And a servant-girl, seeing him as he sat in the firelight and looking intently at him,

This trial was at night, this is very clear James, the trial was not
in a court at 9-00 am, but at the residence of the high priest.


Now at what time was Jesus given into Pilate's hands?

Mark 15 (RSV)
15 And as soon as it was morning...delivered him to Pilate.

Soon after the sun had risen, Jesus was given over to Pilate for
the final decision on his fate. If this event occurred in April then
sunrise was about 5-30 am. Jesus was crucified at the sixth hour in
Hebrew time or 12-00am in Roman time. There was an interval of five
to six hours for Pilate and Herod to deal with Jesus. After all James,
Jesus was seen as a political and religous activist and had to be dealt
with firmly and quickly.

Jesus died at the ninth hour or 3pm as recorded in the three Gospels.

As for God only using natural phenomonen for signs and miracles.

I would welcome your naturalistic explanation of the following;

Exodus 13:21
The Lord was going before them in a pillar of cloud by day to lead them on the way,
and in a pillar of fire by night to give them light, that they might travel by day and by night.

A pillar of fire by night?

I think you mean THIRD hour in Hebrew time DHC which is 9 am, not the 6th, at 12 noon (or 12 pm) (not 12 AM as you say, which by convention is midnight).

These were residential courts, DHC, the residences were fully equipped palaces, with courtyards, gardens, watchtowers, interrogation rooms, jails etc, everything required for court.
Jesus facing 6 judgments in different locations within 5-6 hours all before 6-7 am, with crowds of people, teachers of the law, elders.. organizing that sounds like a logistical miracle in itself..and remember their sun-dial wrist watches did not work until daylight. How many courts do you know that open before 6 am?

Why are you neglecting the record of John when John's gospel is believed by many scholars to be the most accurate and the earliest gospel?

Not sure what you are trying to prove DHC by fire and smoke example, it only proves my point further. Fire and smoke are natural elements, that God caused by His manifest presence no doubt. But what I know you cannot explain, is how God who is light (1 John 1:5), can manifest or create darkness out of nothing. From what I know of God, He is not the author of darkness, evil or sin.. so to cause darkness He must block or remove the light e.g. cause solar eclipse, He doesn't create darkness out of nothing, and certainly not out of His manifest presence, because He Himself is light.

 

[DHC]

I think you mean THIRD hour in Hebrew time DHC which is 9 am, not the 6th, at 12 noon (or 12 pm) (not 12 AM as you say, which by convention is midnight).

These were residential courts, DHC, the residences were fully equipped palaces, with courtyards, gardens, watchtowers, interrogation rooms, jails etc, everything required for court.
Jesus facing 6 judgments in different locations within 5-6 hours all before 6-7 am, with crowds of people, teachers of the law, elders.. organizing that sounds like a logistical miracle in itself..and remember their sun-dial wrist watches did not work until daylight. How many courts do you know that open before 6 am?

Why are you neglecting the record of John when John's gospel is believed by many scholars to be the most accurate and the earliest gospel?

Not sure what you are trying to prove DHC by fire and smoke example, it only proves my point further. Fire and smoke are natural elements, that God caused by His manifest presence no doubt. But what I know you cannot explain, is how God who is light (1 John 1:5), can manifest or create darkness out of nothing. From what I know of God, He is not the author of darkness, evil or sin.. so to cause darkness He must block or remove the light e.g. cause solar eclipse, He doesn't create darkness out of nothing, and certainly not out of His manifest presence, because He Himself is light.

Hello James.

Some of what you said is correct, I do admit you have made some good points.
I would enjoy continuing this discussion but there is another more important thread
that I am drawn to. Perhaps at some future time we may continue this thread.

Thanks anyway James.

 

[rstrats]

james1523,

re: "Jesus died at 6 pm which is when the period of darkness commenced and just before the start of the Sabbath. Darkness fell from 6th to 9th hour after noon (6 pm - 9 pm). "

Two things about that:

1. Luke 23:44-45 says that the sun was darkened after the ninth hour. How could the sun be in the picture when it had been gone since sunset?

2. John 19:31 indicates that there was a rush to get the bodies off the crosses before the start of the sabbath because there was apparently a rule against that. Assuming the sabbath began at 6pm, and if that is when the Messiah died, then He would have been on the cross on a sabbath at least durring the time that it took Joseph to go and get permission to remove the Messiah and during the time that it took Joseph to get back to the crucifixion site. Also, I believe there was a rule about touching a dead body on the sabbath.

 

[judge not]

james1523,

re: "Jesus died at 6 pm which is when the period of darkness commenced and just before the start of the Sabbath. Darkness fell from 6th to 9th hour after noon (6 pm - 9 pm). "

Two things about that:

1. Luke 23:44-45 says that the sun was darkened after the ninth hour. How could the sun be in the picture when it had been gone since sunset?

2. John 19:31 indicates that there was a rush to get the bodies off the crosses before the start of the sabbath because there was apparently a rule against that. Assuming the sabbath began at 6pm, and if that is when the Messiah died, then He would have been on the cross on a sabbath at least durring the time that it took Joseph to go and get permission to remove the Messiah and during the time that it took Joseph to get back to the crucifixion site. Also, I believe there was a rule about touching a dead body on the sabbath.

The 9th hour in Biblical time when Jesus was crucified is 3 pm our time.-the 12th hour would be 6 pm in our time frame.

 

[rstrats]

judge not,

re: "The 9th hour in Biblical time when Jesus was crucified is 3 pm..."


You know that, and I know that, but james1523 says that it is 9pm.

 

[judge not]

judge not,

re: "The 9th hour in Biblical time when Jesus was crucified is 3 pm..."


You know that, and I know that, but james1523 says that it is 9pm.

I just follow the facts not speculators-stick with that and you will be true to the truth

 

[rstrats]

Perhaps a slight rewording of the OP will make it a little more clear:

Whenever the three days and three nights of Matthew 12:40 is brought up in a "discussion" with 6th day of the week crucifixion proponents, they frequently suggest that it is a common Jewish idiom for counting any part of a day as a whole day. I wonder if anyone has documentation that shows an example from the first century or before regarding a period of time that is said to consist of a specific number of days and/or a specific number of nights where the period of time absolutely couldn't have included at least a part of each one of the specific number of days and at least a part of each one of the specific number of nights?

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

A day can surely mean much more than the earth making 1 full rotation.
Genesis uses the term day before the planets and stars were formed.

This is an article from Abiram publications that explains the Hebrew term "day".

To define something, the Hebrew language does not look at outer parameters but always at the action that needs to be named. The time-length of a yom is an outer parameter and not regarded in Hebrew. Since time and space are the four dimensions of space-time, and we measure sizes in the spacial dimensions with a ruler, a clock is a ruler for time. An hour is a 'distance' just like a mile.
A yom is not defined as something that is 24 hours long, but something that executes the action that defines a yom. Strictly spoken, a yom does not even have to have a length, as long as it executes the typical behavior that defines it. Forcing a static 24-hour mold upon the word yom may appear quite pious but flies flat in the face of the Second Commandment.
A yom therefore is a phase of a continuum (whether space-time, complexity or something else) that consists of two periods: a 'dark' part and a 'light' part.

I think this verse also shows the use of a partial cycle as sort of a token of a whole.
Matthew 20:12 These who were hired last worked only one hour,' they said, 'and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.'

 

[rstrats]

Thiscrosshurts,

Do you know of any writing as requested in the OP?

 

[DHC]

Thiscrosshurts,

Do you know of any writing as requested in the OP?

The most frequent reference to Jesus’ resurrection reveals that He rose from the grave on the third day of His entombment.
Matthew, Mark, and Luke all record Jesus as prophesying that He would arise from the grave on this day (Matthew 17:23; Mark 9:31; Luke 9:22).
The apostle Paul wrote in his first epistle to the Corinthians that Jesus arose from the grave “the third day according to the Scriptures” (1 Corinthians 15:4).
What’s more, while preaching to Cornelius and his household, Peter taught that God raised Jesus up “on the third day” (Acts 10:40, emp. added).

The fact is, however, Jesus also taught (and Mark recorded) “that the Son of Man” would “be killed, and after three days rise again” (Mark 8:31, emp. added).
Furthermore, Jesus elsewhere prophesied that He would be in the heart of the Earth for “three days and three nights” (Matthew 12:40).
So which is it? Did Jesus rise from the dead on the third day or after three days?

While to the 21st-century reader these statements may initially appear to contradict one another, in reality, they harmonize perfectly if one understands the different,
and sometimes more liberal, methods ancients often used when reckoning time. In the first century, any part of a day could be computed for the whole day and the night following it (cf. Lightfoot, 1979, pp. 210-211).
The Jerusalem Talmud quotes rabbi Eleazar ben Azariah, who lived around A.D. 100, as saying: “A day and night are an Onah [‘a portion of time’] and the portion of an Onah is as
the whole of it” (from Jerusalem Talmud: Shabbath ix. 3, as quoted in Hoehner, 1974, pp. 248-249, bracketed comment in orig.).

Azariah indicated that a portion of a 24-hour period could be considered the same “as the whole of it.” Thus, as awkward as it may sound to an American living in the 21st century,
a person in ancient times could legitimately speak of something occurring “on the third day,” “after three days,” or after “three days and three nights,” yet still be referring to the same exact day.

The Scriptures contain several examples which clearly show that in Bible times a part of a day was often equivalent to the whole day.

• According to Genesis 7:12, the rain of the Noahic Flood was upon the Earth “forty days and forty nights.” Verse 17 of that same chapter says it was on the Earth for just “forty days.” Who would argue that it had to rain precisely 960 hours (40 days x 24 hours) for both of these statements to be true?
• In Genesis 42:17 Joseph incarcerated his brothers for three days. Then, according to verse 18, he spoke to them on the third day and released them (all but one, that is).
• In 1 Samuel 30:12,13, the phrases “three days and three nights” and “three days” are used interchangeably.
• When Queen Esther was about to risk her life by going before the king uninvited, she instructed her fellow Jews to follow her example by not eating “for three days, night or day” (Esther 4:16). The text goes on to tell us that Esther went in unto the king “on the third day” (5:1, emp. added).
• Perhaps the most compelling Old Testament passage which clearly testifies that the ancients (at least occasionally) considered a portion of a twenty-four hour period “as the whole of it” is found in 2 Chronicles 10. When Israel asked King Rehoboam to lighten their burdens, he wanted time to contemplate their request, so he instructed Jeroboam and the people of Israel to return “after three days” (2 Chronicles 10:5, emp. added). Verse 12, however, indicates that Jeroboam and the people of Israel came to Rehoboam “on the third day, as the king had directed, saying, ‘ Come back to me the third day’ ” (emp. added). Fascinating, is it not, that even though Rehoboam instructed his people to return “after three days,” they understood this to mean “on the third day.”
• From Acts 10, we can glean further insight into the ancient practice of counting consecutive days (in part or in whole) as complete days. Luke recorded how an angel appeared to Cornelius at “about the ninth hour of the day” (approximately 3:00 p.m.; Acts 10:3). “The next day” (10:9) Peter received a vision from God and welcomed visitors sent by Cornelius. “On the next day” (10:23) Peter and the servants of Cornelius departed for Caesarea. “And the following day they entered Caesarea” where Peter taught Cornelius and his household the Gospel (10:24). At one point during Peter’s visit,Cornelius spoke about his encounter with the angel of God. Notice carefully how he began the rehearsal of the event. He stated: “Four days ago to this hour, I was praying in my house during the ninth hour…” (10:30, NASB, emp. added). Although the event actually had occurred only 72 hours (or three literal days) earlier, Cornelius spoke of it as taking place “four days ago to this hour.” Why four days instead of three? Because according to the first-century method of reckoning time, a part of the first day and a part of the fourth day could be counted as whole days. Surely one can see how this information aligns itself perfectly with Jesus’ burial taking place on Friday and His resurrection occurring on Sunday. A part of Friday, all day Saturday, and a part of Sunday would be considered three days in ancient times, not one or two.

Even though in modern times some may find this reasoning somewhat confusing, similar idiomatic expressions frequently are used today.
For example, we consider a baseball game that ends after only completing 8½ innings a “9-inning game.”
And even though the losing pitcher on the visiting team only pitched 8 innings (and not 9 innings like the winning pitcher from the home team), he is said to have pitched a complete game.
Consider also the guest at a hotel who checks in at 8:30 p.m. on Wednesday, and checks out at 5:30 p.m. on Thursday—less than 24 hours later.
Did the man stay one day or two days at the hotel? Technically, the guest was there for less than one full day (24-hour period), yet the hotel legally can charge him for two days since he did
not leave before the mandatory 11:00 a.m. checkout time.

Considering how flexible we are in measuring time, depending on the context, perhaps we should not be surprised at how liberal the ancients could be in calculating time.
Further evidence proving that Jesus’ statements regarding His burial were not contradictory centers around the fact that even His enemies did not accuse Him of contradicting Himself.
No doubt this was due to their familiarity with and use of the flexible, customary method of stating time. In fact, the chief priests and Pharisees even said to Pilate the day after
Jesus was crucified: “Sir, we remember, while He was still alive, how that deceiver said, ‘After three days I will rise.’ Therefore command that the tomb be made secure until the
third day” (Matthew 27:63-64, emp. added). The phrase “after three days” must have been equivalent to “the third day,” else surely the Pharisees would have asked for a guard of soldiers
until the fourth day.

Interesting, is it not, that modern skeptics charge Jesus with contradicting Himself, but not the hypercritical Pharisees of His own day.
The idiomatic expressions that Jesus and the Bible writers employed to denote how long Jesus would remain in the grave does not mean that He literally was buried for 72 hours.
If we interpret the account of Jesus’ crucifixion, burial, and resurrection in light of the cultural setting of the first century, and not according to the present-day understanding of skeptics,
we find no errors in any of the expressions that Jesus and the gospel writers used.
(Apologetics press)

 

[rstrats]

DHC,

re: ". In the first century, any part of a day could be computed for the whole day and the night following it (cf. Lightfoot, 1979, pp. 210-211)."

I agree, and in fact we use the phrase the same way today. BUT, the Messiah didn't just say 3 days in Matthew 12:40 - he specifically stipulated three days and three nights. As I said, the Jewish practice of counting any part of a day as a whole day I would agree with, but when a specific number of nights is added to a specific number of days to yield the phrase "3 days AND 3 nights", it normally refers to a measurement of a consecutive time period where "day" refers to the light portion of a 24 hour period and "night" refers to the dark portion of a 24 hour period. No one In the history of apologetics as far as I know has yet presented any historical documentation that a phrase stating "x" days AND "x" nights￾ was a unique first century idiom of Hebrew/Aramaic/Greek which could mean something different than what the phrase means in English - at least a part of day time and at least a part of night time.


re: " The Jerusalem Talmud quotes rabbi Eleazar ben Azariah, who lived around A.D. 100, as saying: 'A day and night are an Onah [‘a portion of time’] and the portion of an Onah is as the whole of it'”

I'll see your rabbi and raise you three rabbis. That quote by Rabbi Eliezar Ben Azariah, is contradicted by Rabbi Ismael, Rabbi Jochanan, and Rabbi Akiba, contemporaries of Azariah, who all agree that an onah was 12 hours long, either a day OR a night. "Commentary on the New Testament from the Talmud and Hebraica".

The interpretation of the meaning of the phrase, "A day and a night make an Onah, and a part of an Onah is as the whole" doesn't seem to make any sense. On the one hand it's saying that a day AND a night define an Onah and then turns right around and says that a day OR a night define an Onah. What makes more sense is that the rabbi is saying that a day is an Onah and a night is an Onah but that any part of a day can be counted as a whole day and any part of a night can be counted as a whole night.



re: "The Scriptures contain several examples which clearly show that in Bible times a part of a day was often equivalent to the whole day."

None of the scriptures that you provided show the use of phrase stating a period of time that is said to consist of a specific number of days as well as a specific number of nights where the period of time absolutely couldn't have included at least a part of each one of the specific number of days and at least a part of each one of the specific number of nights.



re: "For example, we consider a baseball game that ends after only completing 8½ innings a '9-inning game.' ”

For that analogy to be consistent with the idea that Matthew 12:40 is an idiom, the statement would have to have been made that "we played 9 top halves and 9 bottom halves of a 9 inning game" when the bottom half of the 9th inning wasn't actually played.



re: "Consider also the guest at a hotel who checks in at 8:30 p.m. on Wednesday, and checks out at 5:30 p.m. on Thursday—less than 24 hours later."

Likewise, to be analogous with the idea that Matthew 12:40 is an idiom, your example would have to be reworded to say "the guest stayed 2 days and 2 nights at the hotel" when he was actually only there for the ending night time portion of Wednesday, the beginning night time portion of Thursday and the day time portion of Thursday.



re: "In fact, the chief priests and Pharisees even said to Pilate the day after Jesus was crucified: 'Sir, we remember, while He was still alive, how that deceiver said, ‘After three days I will rise.’ Therefore command that the tomb be made secure until the third day' (Matthew 27:63-64, emp. added).The phrase 'after three days' must have been equivalent to 'the third day,' else surely the Pharisees would have asked for a guard of soldiers until the fourth day."

Or the "the third day" was equivalent to "after three days" with the word "after" being implied.



re: "Interesting, is it not, that modern skeptics charge Jesus with contradicting Himself..."

Actually, they're charging the 6th day crucifixion adherents with making an assertion that the Messiah didn't literally mean what He said.



re: "The idiomatic expressions that Jesus and the Bible writers employed to denote how long Jesus would remain in the grave does not mean that He literally was buried for 72 hours."

But the OP is not about 72 hours.

 

[rstrats]

Since it has again been awhile, perhaps someone new looking in who thinks that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week may know of some writing.

 

[Victor9509]

For just as Jonah was in the belly of the huge fish for three days and three nights, so the Son of Man will be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights. -Matthew 12:40
This basically saying that this the only sign you'll get from God

A day is daylight and night is part of a whole day. So when they say three days and three nights he really means three days. How do I know this because It says the heart of man will be three days and three nights and it says in the Bible in variety of places that Jesus will resurrect on the third day.
I HOPE I ANSWERED YOUR QUESTION:shade:​

 

[DHC]

Hello all.

Apparently there are some folk on TJ proposing a new idea.

They postulate that Jesus was buried for a time period of three days
and three nights. Hence it follows that Jesus rose on the fourth day
and not on the third day as the scripture declares.

Please read the following quotes from the scripture and you decide
for yourself on which day Jesus rose from the dead.

Matthew 16:21
From that time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem,
and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed,
and be raised up on the third day.

Matthew 17:23
and they will kill Him, and He will be raised on the third day.

Matthew 20:19
and will hand Him over to the Gentiles to mock and scourge and crucify Him,
and on the third day He will be raised up.

Matthew 26:61
and said, this man stated, ‘I am able to destroy the temple of God and to rebuild
it in three days.’

Matthew 27:40
and saying, “You who are going to destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days."

Matthew 27:64
Therefore, give orders for the grave to be made secure until the third day,
otherwise His disciples may come and steal Him away and say to the people,
‘He has risen from the dead,’ and the last deception will be worse than the first.

Mark 14:58
We heard Him say, ‘I will destroy this temple made with hands, and in three days
I will build another made without hands.’

Luke 9:22
saying, “The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders
and chief priests and scribes, and be killed and be raised up on the third day.”

Luke 13:32
And He said to them, “Go and tell that fox, ‘Behold, I cast out demons and
perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I reach My goal.’

Luke 18:33
and after they have scourged Him, they will kill Him; and the third day He will rise again.”

Luke 24:7
saying that the Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and
be crucified, and the third day rise again.

Luke 24:46
and He said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again
from the dead the third day.

John 2:19
Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”

John 2:20
The Jews then said, “It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You
raise it up in three days?”

Acts 10:40
God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible.

1 Corinthians 15:4
and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.

 

[stephen]

Have a look at Bible Questions Answered

 

[Victor9509]

Stephen ... Right there is no knowing when God is coming ... It says in the bible not even the angels in heaven know ... The only one that knows is God.

 

[Brother Paul]

Whenever the three days and three nights of Matthew 12:40 is brought up in a "discussion" with 6th day crucifixion folks, they frequently suggest that it is a Jewish idiom for counting any part of a day as a whole day. I wonder if anyone has documentation that shows an example from the first century or before regarding a period of time that is said to consist of a specific number of days as well as a specific number of nights where the period of time absolutely doesn't/can't include at least a part of each one of the specific number of days and at least a part of each one of the specific number of nights?

Sure! 1 Samuel 30...the exact phrase is used yet it is on the 3rd day that David takes the bread (not the day following 72 hours). I assume 1 Samuel is excepted documentation. But the same inclusive reckoning is applied in many other ways in the Bible outside of this one idiomatic expression...for example circumcision is to occur on the 8th day or at the end days (Luke 1:59; 2:21) however even if a male child is born 5 minutes before the end of day 1 it counts as the 1st day in the counting (same with the counting of the omer to Pentecost,,,and more, in 2 Kings 18:9-10 we read about the siege of Samaria lasted from the fourth to the sixth year of Hezekiah, which is equated with the seventh to the ninth year of Hoshea.The city was taken “at the end of three years.” But by modern western subtraction we would say it was only two (9-7). Now think about this logically...Jesus was crucified about 3 in the afternoon Passover day (following Passover evening) if we add a literal 72 hours He would then have to rise sometime after 3 pm on the day of the feast of first fruits which contradicts EVERY account of His rising (early in the morning after the Sabbath)...Early in the morning cannot be construed to be after, around, or at 3 pm...thus inclusive reckoning...

The Jewish Encyclopedia states. “A short time in the morning of the seventh day is counted as the seventh day; circumcision takes place on the eighth day, even though, of the first day only a few minutes after the birth of the child, these being counted as one day.” Vol. 4, p. 475.

Will that suffice?

In His love

Brother Paul