The Positional Platform

[B-A-C]

The Gentile has never been under the Law (Ten Commandments, sacrificial ordinances and all within the Mosaic Law). You will never see Scripture directing the Gentile to obedience to this because it was given to Israel only. This is why they are called "the people of God," because He started His union and fellowship with them and then to the Gentiles (the rest of the world) through them: "through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles" (Rom 11:11).

Rom 2:12; When the Gentiles sin, they will be destroyed, even though they never had God's written law. And the Jews, who do have God's law, will be judged by that law when they fail to obey it.
Rom 2:13; For merely listening to the law doesn't make us right with God. It is obeying the law that makes us right in His sight.

But you still haven't answered my question. Can Gentiles sin? If so, how can they sin? Why do you keep avoiding answering this question?

 

[NetChaplain]

Rom 2:12; When the Gentiles sin, they will be destroyed, even though they never had God's written law. And the Jews, who do have God's law, will be judged by that law when they fail to obey it.
Rom 2:13; For merely listening to the law doesn't make us right with God. It is obeying the law that makes us right in His sight.

But you still haven't answered my question. Can Gentiles sin? If so, how can they sin? Why do you keep avoiding answering this question?

Sorry BAC, I didn't notice or intend to avoid your question because I thought my replies addressed it. Regardless of who they are, everyone's sin in their life comes from the sin nature and even if it is not intended (as this is always the case for the believer) the sinning is still present, just as the sin nature is still present (cannot have the sin nature and avoid sinning, even willfully) which is insignificant since Christ atoned for it. Of course, the wording of sin and sinning may need defined because it varies greatly between believers. Even just possessing the sin nature ("old man") establishes being a part of sinfulness (Rom 5:12), but God does not regard the believer after this nature (Rom 4:8; Eph 1:6) but after the new nature ("new man"), which is from Christ (Col 3:10).

The more the believer learns about the "old man," the activities of the old man will become increasingly identifiable, which increasingly glorifies God's grace for, "where sin (old man's presence) abounded, grace did much more abound" (Rom 5:20).

I also wanted to comment on what you posted here: "It is obeying the law that makes us right in His sight." I believe obedience to God's will doesn't produce a right standing with God but reveals that we have been given that which causes us to be obedient, which is God working in us (Phil 2:13) and the Spirit's work in us (Gal 5:17).

 

[NetChaplain]

I believe this passage is not saying that man can obey the Law (Ten Commandments), because to obey it means to keep it perfectly and without ever breaking any of it, which only Christ did; "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all" (Jam 2:10). This also does not mean that Christ's obedience was put to our account and therefore making us justified and righteous because there is no Scripture that supports this concept.

It was His sacrifice that accounted for our guilt, and His obedience was just to display His qualification for being the perfect atonement.

 

[B-A-C]

the sinning is still present, just as the sin nature is still present (cannot have the sin nature and avoid sinning, even willfully) which is insignificant since Christ atoned for it. Of course, the wording of sin and sinning may need defined because it varies greatly between believers

I would also disagree that the atonement is isn't done in advance, but happens each time we sin. However, since you said "the sin nature is still present".
Can you give some examples of sin? Can you name what some of these sins might be? How do we know if something is sin or not?

 

[will]

I would also disagree that the atonement is isn't done in advance, but happens each time we sin. However, since you said "the sin nature is still present".
Can you give some examples of sin? Can you name what some of these sins might be? How do we know if something is sin or not?

Let's keep it simple. Before there were Jews and Gentiles, who committed the first sin? Adam.
By doing what? directly disobeying God's command.
That's how sin enter the human race and we (Jews or Gentiles) bear the mark until today (and the future too) in the form of the sin nature.

In other words, sin is not a potential that we can do or not do, rather, we are already condemned since our physical birth.
Our actions that will never measure up to God's standard whatever we do is just a confirmation of this concept.

That's why we (Jews or Gentiles) desperately need a savior who can replace us on the cross (where we ought to be), and more importantly, give us the power to overcome the sin nature through the process of growth. What growth? Spiritual growth (as in being guided, taught, and controlled by God's own Holy Spirit).

Again, if you ignore this concept of growth, we are back firing verses at each other, trying to prove our own presumptions.

 

[Bambi]

I would also disagree that the atonement is isn't done in advance, but happens each time we sin. However, since you said "the sin nature is still present".
Can you give some examples of sin? Can you name what some of these sins might be? How do we know if something is sin or not?

By the law. Gal 3:24-25 The law is our schoolmaster. It shows us what sin is.

You say that atonement isn't done in advance? Why not? When Jesus died on the cross did he not die for your sins at that time? If not does that mean he has to die over and over again? Or does it mean you can lose your salvation and have to seek forgiveness over and over again each time you sin. And if you don't seek forgiveness for a sin that you commit, will you die and go to hell?

 

[DHC]

Galatians 2
21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.

The attempt to obey any of the Mosaic laws is simply a work of the flesh. Righteousness is granted to us
by Christ, we have the righteousness of Christ Jesus by faith.

20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me;

Here is the answer for anyone that is confused over the place of the law in the Christian life.
If you believe in Jesus then you have received the Holy Spirit. You now have Christ within you to
direct and guide you, this is a spiritual journey. Jesus Christ inhabits the believer to will and to work for
His good pleasure. Your old nature is dead in Christ, the lust for the things of the world will diminish in time.

Trying to obey the legal code of the old Mosaic covenant is simply the domain of flesh. Your flesh cannot and will
not obey the law. You are a spiritual creation in Christ, a new person without flaw or blemish.

 

[B-A-C]

Let's keep it simple. Before there were Jews and Gentiles, who committed the first sin? Adam.
By doing what? directly disobeying God's command.
That's how sin enter the human race and we (Jews or Gentiles) bear the mark until today (and the future too) in the form of the sin nature.

So in other words, we Gentiles can't sin today? We were just born into sin by someone elses doing and we are unable to sin even if we want to?

 

[B-A-C]

Unbelieving gentiles are under the laws of Noah, the pre-Moses laws

Do you have examples of what some of those laws are? Cain wasn't a Jew, did he sin when he killed Abel?

 

[spirit1st]

Listen to me ? Our flesh is born into sin and Never becomes sin free .
After salvation ? It the same old dying sin filled body . Anyone who thinks they do not sin or cannot sin in the flesh are fooling themselves.

This flesh is weak , Only our new creature [New spirit] is sin free and cannot sin .
It the only part of our being that goes to heaven to be with our LORD .

It a daily job keeping it under subjection . It has all kinds of desires , most are most in by the LORD HIMSELF . Like the desire for eating or going to the bathroom or living , or desiring a mate . They are not evil in themselves . But when they go over board ? They can become sin full very easy .

anything can become sin almost ? Sin is normally always in our minds first . Then we see the results in the flesh many times ? It in our flesh mind first .

We do not always reveal it ? I know in some cases satan uses women to make men sin in there minds ! Many times the woman innocent to some degree , Because she does not know the affect she having on men ? Other know and love it .

 

[will]

So in other words, we Gentiles can't sin today? We were just born into sin by someone elses doing and we are unable to sin even if we want to?

If you and I humbly ask God to illuminate our minds surrounding this passage in Romans 5:12 that says:
12So then, just as sin entered the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all people because all sinned

I think we both would be in agreement.

Because of the sin nature we inherited from our common ancestor Adam, we came to rely on our "self." As the product of self-reliance, we, Gentiles or Jews sin (miss the mark) every day, whether we wanted to or not. The only antidote to this condition is our transformation into a new Spiritually-filled being that is reconciled with God through the sacrifice of our Lord on the cross. As a transformed being, we start growing into less self-reliance and turn into God in every thing.

This is a process, led and empowered by God's own Holy Spirit in us. It does not happen instantly.

 

[B-A-C]

You say that atonement isn't done in advance? Why not? When Jesus died on the cross did he not die for your sins at that time? If not does that mean he has to die over and over again? Or does it mean you can lose your salvation and have to seek forgiveness over and over again each time you sin. And if you don't seek forgiveness for a sin that you commit, will you die and go to hell?

Yes Jesus died for our sins. He died for the sins of the whole world, yet the whole world isn't saved. ( 1 Jn 2:2 )
No he doesn't have to die again. ( Heb 10:10; 1 Pet 3:18; )
You don't lose your salvation just because you commit a sin. ( 1 Jn 2:1; ) There is grace.
But yes, we should for forgiveness everytime we sin. James 5:16; 1 Jn 1:9; )

 

[Bambi]

Yes Jesus died for our sins. He died for the sins of the whole world, yet the whole world isn't saved. ( 1 Jn 2:2 )
No he doesn't have to die again. ( Heb 10:10; 1 Pet 3:18; )
You don't lose your salvation just because you commit a sin. ( 1 Jn 2:1; ) There is grace.
But yes, we should for forgiveness everytime we sin. James 5:16; 1 Jn 1:9; )

If he died for our sins and yet the whole world isn't saved, then what did his death accomplished? What more is required for salvation?

 

[Bambi]

Listen to me ? Our flesh is born into sin and Never becomes sin free .
After salvation ? It the same old dying sin filled body . Anyone who thinks they do not sin or cannot sin in the flesh are fooling themselves.

This flesh is weak , Only our new creature [New spirit] is sin free and cannot sin .
It the only part of our being that goes to heaven to be with our LORD .

It a daily job keeping it under subjection . It has all kinds of desires , most are most in by the LORD HIMSELF . Like the desire for eating or going to the bathroom or living , or desiring a mate . They are not evil in themselves . But when they go over board ? They can become sin full very easy .

anything can become sin almost ? Sin is normally always in our minds first . Then we see the results in the flesh many times ? It in our flesh mind first .

We do not always reveal it ? I know in some cases satan uses women to make men sin in there minds ! Many times the woman innocent to some degree , Because she does not know the affect she having on men ? Other know and love it .

You could even do something good, but if you do it for the wrong reason like pride, then it's sin.

 

[spirit1st]

Yes Bambi your correct. I have done things I thought was good and it was not .

Our reasons why we do things is so very important .

Rom_14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.



Heb_11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.


I asked God once ? Lord , when we leave this body , all those thoughts in our flesh mind dies and is gone forever more .
What does our Spirits mind take with it ?
He said everything we ever did out of pure love. That why we remember our Dads and Moms , we really loved them .

So it means to me ? If it not done out of pure love , it about worthless .

 

[Bambi]

Yes Bambi your correct. I have done things I thought was good and it was not .

Our reasons why we do things is so very important .

Rom_14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.



Heb_11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.


I asked God once ? Lord , when we leave this body , all those thoughts in our flesh mind dies and is gone forever more .
What does our Spirits mind take with it ?
He said everything we ever did out of pure love. That why we remember our Dads and Moms , we really loved them .

So it means to me ? If it not done out of pure love , it about worthless .

Are you receiving revelations?

 

[spirit1st]

That how I know , what I know. I am not that smart to get the understanding with my little mind .
He been teaching me since 1972 and He still teaching me .

Gal_1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

1Co_2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

1Co_2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

1Co_2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


He wants to teach each of His children Himself .
He the best father ever .

Many are not taught , He waiting 24/7 for us to ask questions , so He can reveal the answers to us .

1Jn_2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.



Gal_3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Out Spirit is not female or male . which is the holy child of God .

We are all equal in Him . He alone the head we learn from and follow 100%

 

[DHC]

Hello all.

There exists a crucial difference between a covenant and a testament as described
in the Old and New Testaments.

At Mt Sinai God established a covenant with the nation of Israel. Moses was the
mediator of this agreement between God and Israel. It is called a covenant of works
since Israel agreed to follow the laws prescribed by God. Please note that this is
an agreement, between two parties God and Israel. This covenant never was established
between God and any other nation! Moses was the mediator, the physical third party between God and Israel.

If Israel abided by the specified terms of the agreement, Israel would recieve the
promised land. There are some very important points in the Mosaic covenant that
must be understood.

Mosaic Covenant (old covenant)

1) The parties involved, physical Israel and God.
2) The blood of goats and calves was sufficient for a temporary covering of sin.
3) This was a temporary reconciliation for sin not eternal.
4) Membership of this national covenant was by physical circumcision.
5) Strict obedience to the commandments, a physical compliance or works of the law.
6) Mediation was ongoing due to failure by Israel to honor the covenant.

The New Testament (A testament is different to a covenant)

1) The parties involved, Jesus the Son and His Father.
2) A permanent, eternal covering for sin, guaranteed by Christ Himself.
3) This is a testament signed in the blood of Christ, not an agreement or covenant.
4) Membership is on the basis of belief in the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
5) Not a works based conditional agreement but granted by Grace.
6) Members of this divine testament are heirs, they inherit eternal reward.
7) Christ is the mediator on behalf of mankind, we have not contributed to this covenant.

 

[B-A-C]

If you and I humbly ask God to illuminate our minds surrounding this passage in Romans 5:12 that says:
12So then, just as sin entered the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all people because all sinned

I think we both would be in agreement.

Because of the sin nature we inherited from our common ancestor Adam, we came to rely on our "self." As the product of self-reliance, we, Gentiles or Jews sin (miss the mark) every day, whether we wanted to or not. The only antidote to this condition is our transformation into a new Spiritually-filled being that is reconciled with God through the sacrifice of our Lord on the cross. As a transformed being, we start growing into less self-reliance and turn into God in every thing.

This is a process, led and empowered by God's own Holy Spirit in us. It does not happen instantly.

I am in agreement with you, espescially the part about it being a process. But my question remains, if we aren't under the law, how can we sin?
If we can't sin, why do we need Jesus? Is it only because Adam sinned? We have no accountability for our own actions now?
And what does this "process" you mention involve if we are already perfect?

 

[B-A-C]

If he died for our sins and yet the whole world isn't saved, then what did his death accomplished? What more is required for salvation?

Faith in Christ first and foremost. Who he is and what he has done. Confession also. Usually a test of faith. Being obedient to God's will and word.
Confessing you belong to Jesus with your mouth. ..and of course, repentance.