The Positional Platform

[Bambi]

Faith in Christ first and foremost. Who he is and what he has done. Confession also. Usually a test of faith. Being obedient to God's will and word.
Confessing you belong to Jesus with your mouth. ..and of course, repentance.

Your answer was we as individuals need to do something. Isn't that works salvation? You say we need faith in Christ, where does faith come from? From us or from God? Also my question previously was, "What did Jesus's death accomplished on the cross?

 

[kyval82]

Agreed, but then you are saying before we were saved we were held accountable for not keeping them? And even after we are saved we shouldn't keep doing them?

before Jesus came the only grace we had was law.. yes they were held accountable for not keeping them. no i am Not saying we shouldnt keep the commandments. i am saying that we now have Jesus, He was are final sacrifice for our sin, when we do sin He is our advocate to the Father and we keep the commandments because Jesus said if we love Him we will keep His commandments because keeping them helps keep us from sin.

 

[will]

I am in agreement with you, espescially the part about it being a process. But my question remains, if we aren't under the law, how can we sin?
If we can't sin, why do we need Jesus? Is it only because Adam sinned? We have no accountability for our own actions now?
And what does this "process" you mention involve if we are already perfect?

I guess my confusion is this: Why do we have to be "under the law" to be able to sin? To sin is to miss God's standard, we do that everyday we live on this earth. The law (of Moses) is simply God's standard recorded in human language. It is not the law that is important, but God's standard that it represents, which does not change, and still applies from the past, to present, to the future.

Now the *growing* process will help us to slowly become more like Christ (which is what God wants from us). This process transform our thinking from self-centered into God-centered. But we cannot undergo this process in the absence of Scriptures and our reliance on The Holy Spirit to explain it to us.

 

[will]

Are you receiving revelations?

Sister, we do receive revelations every time we read the Scriptures and submit (as in making the decision to submit) to the teachings of the Holy Spirit.
Have you ever read a passage in the Scriptures and one day the meaning of that passage suddenly became clear and fit the others like a piece of the puzzle?
That is the works of the Holy Spirit. You do believe that He is real, correct?

 

[Bambi]

Sister, we do receive revelations every time we read the Scriptures and submit (as in making the decision to submit) to the teachings of the Holy Spirit.
Have you ever read a passage in the Scriptures and one day the meaning of that passage suddenly became clear and fit the others like a piece of the puzzle?
That is the works of the Holy Spirit. You do believe that He is real, correct?

Yes. I believe the Spirit give us an understanding of scripture, but doesn't not give us new revelations. Revelations that are not found in scripture.

 

[B-A-C]

I guess my confusion is this: Why do we have to be "under the law" to be able to sin? To sin is to miss God's standard, we do that everyday we live on this earth. The law (of Moses) is simply God's standard recorded in human language. It is not the law that is important, but
God's standard that it represents, which does not change, and still applies from the past, to present, to the future.

Now the *growing* process will help us to slowly become more like Christ (which is what God wants from us). This process transform our thinking from self-centered into God-centered. But we cannot undergo this process in the absence of Scriptures and our reliance on The Holy Spirit to explain it to us.

You may be correct. I tell you what if you can give me one example of how we miss Gods mark. I'll buy it. Otherwise sin is just some indefinable thing that is whatever we decide it is. If we start making the rules insread of God. Doesnt that make us God?

 

[B-A-C]

Your answer was we as individuals need to do something. Isn't that works salvation? You say we need faith in Christ, where does faith come from? From us or from God? Also my question previously was, "What did Jesus's death accomplished on the cross?

Well Faith itself is a work. (1 Thes 1:3; 2 Thes 1:11; ) It isn't the works that are wrong, it's the reason for the works.
scenario 1. I don't need Jesus, I can be good enough on my own. I can do enough "good deeds" to make to heaven without Jesus. If I do mess up, I'll either pay indulgences to the church, or have a priest sacrifice an animal for me.
scenario 2. I need Jesus, I can't be good enough on my own. I can't do any deeds good enough for me to earn my way to heaven, but since I am already saved, I can do good works to further the kingdom of God and earn rewards for these works once I get to heaven.
You can't be saved by works, but after you are saved, faith without works is dead. ( James 2; )

 

[Bambi]

Well Faith itself is a work. (1 Thes 1:3; 2 Thes 1:11; ) It isn't the works that are wrong, it's the reason for the works.
scenario 1. I don't need Jesus, I can be good enough on my own. I can do enough "good deeds" to make to heaven without Jesus. If I do mess up, I'll either pay indulgences to the church, or have a priest sacrifice an animal for me.
scenario 2. I need Jesus, I can't be good enough on my own. I can't do any deeds good enough for me to earn my way to heaven, but since I am already saved, I can do good works to further the kingdom of God and earn rewards for these works once I get to heaven.
You can't be saved by works, but after you are saved, faith without works is dead. ( James 2; )

I'm still waiting on your answer. "What did Jesus' death accomplished on the cross?

 

[DHC]

Romans 6:15
What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!

Romans 7:6
But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Romans 8:10
If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

Galatians 5:16
But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

1 Corinthians 6:11
Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

 

[B-A-C]

I'm still waiting on your answer. "What did Jesus' death accomplished on the cross?

The main thing is, I don't have to go buy a perfect spotless, non aged, bull (could be a couple grand), or a goat, or a sheep, or doves to sacrifice every time I sin.
The second thing is grace, I don't have to be perfect, I don't have to follow the law to "the letter". If I mess up, his grace covers me.
The third thing is, I have high priest who isn't a mortal man, who himself would have to sacrifice for his own sins; who eventually dies; and could judge me as man judges. But I now have a perfect, sinless, high priest to confess to, who never dies, and only judges me in righteousness. I can also talk to him anytime, not just when the temple is open for business.
The fourth thing is I have a mediator (or advocate) who can appeal to God for me when I make mistakes.
Last, but not least, we now have the Holy Spirit who could not come while Jesus was on the earth.

Those of the Jewish faith didn't have those things back in Jesus time (they still don't today, but they could).
These are the things that make up the new covenant.

Universal forgiveness for everyone's sins was not one of those things. You still have confess, believe and repent.

 

[james1523]

Well Faith itself is a work. (1 Thes 1:3; 2 Thes 1:11; ) It isn't the works that are wrong, it's the reason for the works.

Yes good works are never wrong if they are from our faith. I like this definition of faith: Faith is belief in action. God saves us because of our belief and our actions, acts, activities, i.e. works.
If we believe in Christ but don't confess it with our mouth, we won't be saved.
Just like the woman in the crowd who believed Jesus could heal her, wasn't healed unless she touched Jesus.

1 Thess 1:3 mentions the works that are from our faith, the labor from our love, and the endurance from our hope.

Our salvation is never one sided, it involves God's part and our part.

 

[will]

You may be correct. I tell you what if you can give me one example of how we miss Gods mark. I'll buy it. Otherwise sin is just some indefinable thing that is whatever we decide it is. If we start making the rules insread of God. Doesnt that make us God?

Sin is anything but indefinable, in fact, the Scriptures are very clear about what is sin and what is not sin.
Romans 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

John 8:31-34
Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committed sin is the servant of sin.

Galatians 3:22
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

We miss God's mark whenever our action -- preceded by our decision -- was not motivated by His Glory.
And here is the kicker: Since we were born with 'self' on the throne, we will continue to be motivated by selfishness, even when we think we are doing a charitable action, which is a good thing in itself.

In 2 Corinthians chapter 2, the Apostle Paul contrast the "ministry of letter" vs the "ministry of the Spirit" the former gives out death, the latter gives out life.
Only through Spiritual growth can we start to not miss the mark as often, or as severely. And when we are mature in the Spirit, sin will no longer be attractive to us because we now are fully committed to our new Master, whom we learn to love.

You asked for examples, here is one:
I wake up in the morning, realize that I still didn't get a call from that sales lead whom we had tried so hard to engage for the past six months.
Option #1. I could see this as an opportunity to trust in God's plan, one more day.
Option #2. I could start to doubt and question God's faithfulness.

Option #2 is a sin, not because I steal, envy, or murder, but because my decision is to question God despite what He had provided me with in the past. My decision is motivated by selfishness.

This is an example on why we can't escape sin. Because sin is not only behavioral, but also mental attitude. And without God's help through His Son's sacrifice on the cross, we have no hope whatsoever.

 

[B-A-C]

Option #1. I could see this as an opportunity to trust in God's plan, one more day.
Option #2. I could start to doubt and question God's faithfulness.

So it comes back to, the only sin we can really do is lack faith?

Option #2 is a sin, not because I steal, envy, or murder, but because my decision is to question God despite what He had provided me with in the past. My decision is motivated by selfishness.

Murder, stealing, lying and cheating aren't sin? Only lack of faith in God/Jesus.
If we are saved by faith, and we lose faith in God/Jesus are we still saved? Is there ever any murder or theft or envying that ever happens without selfishness involved?

If selfishness (loving myself) is the opposite of loving God and my neighbor. Wouldn't that be the same as following the two greatest commandments?

 

[will]

So it comes back to, the only sin we can really do is lack faith?

Not the lack of faith, but reliance on self. And this is the source.
There are thousands of different *resulting* behaviors that are considered sin.
That's why we live in such a fallen world.

Murder, stealing, lying and cheating aren't sin? Only lack of faith in God/Jesus.

Murder, stealing, lying, and envy are the product of sin-nature. Those are sinful behaviors.
Again, I never mention anything about faith. Faith is useless if it were not born out of the Spirit.
Before we know Christ, we have faith in ourselves, take a look at where it takes us.
Faith is powerless, the power lies in the one whom we have faith in.
And faith in God does not happen instantaneously, it is grown by the Holy Spirit in us through the Scriptures that we consume.

If we are saved by faith, and we lose faith in God/Jesus are we still saved? Is there ever any murder or theft or envying that ever happens without selfishness involved?

Futile intellectual exercise. What if this , what if that? answering those with our own intelligence would only puff our heads up.
The real question is, where are we in relation to God's revelation (the Scriptures) and God's solution for mankind's sinfulness: Lord Jesus Christ.

If selfishness (loving myself) is the opposite of loving God and my neighbor. Wouldn't that be the same as following the two greatest commandments?

I do not follow your reasoning here. Can you ask it again in a different way?

 

[B-A-C]

Not the lack of faith, but reliance on self. And this is the source.

What exactly is the difference between faith and trust?

Murder, stealing, lying, and envy are the product of sin-nature. Those are sinful behaviors.

What's the difference between a "sinful behavior" and sin?

Again, I never mention anything about faith. Faith is useless if it were not born out of the Spirit.

See my question above about the difference between faith and trust. To me, if I have faith in myself (or anything besides God, money, a friend, the lottery, my favorite team, whatever..) I am not trusting him.
If I'm not trusting him, I don't have faith in him. I see no difference between faith and trust.

Rom 4:20; yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God,
Heb 11:6; And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

The real question is, where are we in relation to God's revelation (the Scriptures) and God's solution for mankind's sinfulness: Lord Jesus Christ.

And how would you answer this? The scriptures contain laws and commandments.

Originally Posted by B-A-C
If selfishness (loving myself) is the opposite of loving God and my neighbor. Wouldn't that be the same as following the two greatest commandments?
I do not follow your reasoning here. Can you ask it again in a different way?

What started this thread was that NetChap said Gentiles were never under the law. So I asked, if that's true, then what defines sin. (I asked him several times) his answer, was simply missing the mark.
I asked him for an example of missing the mark. So far he hasn't given me one (nearly a month has gone by). Fortunately you gave an example ( I assume in his stead ) what I was doing was typing your example
back to the scriptures and the commandments. Your example said being selfish. What is selfishness? Loving yourself more than others. What were the two commandments Jesus and Paul gave?
Love God and love your neighbor/brother as yourself. As yourself means as much as yourself (or possibly more than yourself) so if selfishness is a sin, is it because it's breaking these commandments?
(That we Gentiles supposedly aren't under in the first place).

 

[kyval82]

breaking any commandment is a sin
knowing to do good and not doing it is a sin...
yes the breaking the commandments is sinning but all this post was pointing out is that instead of being under the law we are now heirs in Christ. FREE FROM SACRIFICE BECAUSE HE WAS THE ULTIMATE SACRIFICE!!!!

 

[DHC]

What started this thread was that NetChap said Gentiles were never under the law. So I asked, if that's true, then what defines sin. (I asked him several times) his answer, was simply missing the mark.
I asked him for an example of missing the mark. So far he hasn't given me one (nearly a month has gone by). Fortunately you gave an example ( I assume in his stead ) what I was doing was typing your example
back to the scriptures and the commandments. Your example said being selfish. What is selfishness? Loving yourself more than others. What were the two commandments Jesus and Paul gave?
Love God and love your neighbor/brother as yourself. As yourself means as much as yourself (or possibly more than yourself) so if selfishness is a sin, is it because it's breaking these commandments?
(That we Gentiles supposedly aren't under in the first place).

Hello B-A-C.

The scripture is crystal clear that the Gentiles were never under the law of Moses.

There is not a single statement anywhere in the scripture that states, that the 'old' Covenant
God made with Israel included the Gentile nations.

Exodus is very precise in defining the two parties involved in this 'old' covenant.

Sorry to anyone who might think otherwise, but the Gentiles were not included!

So the obvious question of course will be, how will a Gentile know what sin is?

A very appropriate question to ask, and I am thankful for the invitation.

I have noticed a few select verses that some may find uncomfortable. But will provide an
in depth understanding of what sin truly is!

Psalm 51:5
I was sinful at birth, filled with sin from the time my mother conceived me.

Psalm 14:1–3
There is no one righteous, not even one, there is no one who does good, not even one.

Jeremiah 17:9
The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately corrupt.

Alas, just in these few verses the problem becomes clear. The human condition
is deeply corrupt, sinful, and deceptive. Human history is a testament to this rather
sad fact regarding this dreadful condition. For me the apostle Paul could not
have summed up this plight of mankind better than what He wrote in Romans.

Romans 7
24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?

What a powerful statement, "this body of death".

So does a written law like 'thou shall not commit adultery' address the true problem of
the deceitful, corrupt human heart. Certainly not B-A-C, how could written laws ever
address this wretched condition. Sin is a state of being and not a choice to be obedient.

Major heart surgery is the only solution, the patient must die in order to be given life.

If you lose your life in Christ then B-A-C you will find eternal life.

The whole human condition (flesh) is sin itself and must die.

 

[spirit1st]

Faith is not a work . Faith takes some kind of Action in order to work. It does not work by it self.
just saying I have faith means nothing, Unless I do something to reveal it .

At Salvation we do two works ? We confess with our Mouth and believe in our Hearts.

Jas_2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Gal_5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.


Heb_11:24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
Heb_11:27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.
Heb_11:29 By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.
Heb_11:30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.
Heb_11:31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.
Jas_2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Mar_8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
Luk_9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

God people are brave , when He calls on us to be? and we keep our mouths shut when we are required too?

Heb_11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
God did it in faith and LOVE.

Many prayers are never answered , because they are asked for in selfish self centered reasons . Not for Others or the LORD .

We now do all things as unto the LORD for His glory and honor .

Many just want to appear important . when it is Him we want all to see that is important.

He draws all mankind to HIMSELF . He did it All. He gets all the glory.

Once we get high minded then we are just about worthless.

 

[B-A-C]

So does a written law like 'thou shall not commit adultery' address the true problem of
the deceitful, corrupt human heart. Certainly not B-A-C, how could written laws ever
address this wretched condition. Sin is a state of being and not a choice to be obedient.

The law doesn't fix sin, it reveals sin.
Rom 3:20; because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

In fact, there is no other way sin is revealed. While we might not have had the written law, we are still subjected to it.

Rom 2:12 When the Gentiles sin, they will be destroyed, even though they never had God's written law. And the Jews, who do have God's law, will be judged by that law when they fail to obey it.
Rom 2:13 For merely listening to the law doesn't make us right with God. It is obeying the law that makes us right in His sight.
Rom 2:14 Even Gentiles, who do not have God's written law, show that they know His law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it.
Rom 2:15 They demonstrate that God's law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right.

Mat 5:17; "Don't misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose.
Mat 5:18; I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God's law will disappear until its purpose is achieved.

The pharisees believed Gentiles were subject to the law.
Acts 15:5 But then some of the believers who belonged to the sect of the Pharisees stood up and insisted, "The Gentile converts must be circumcised and required to follow the law of Moses."

Paul says Gentiles following the law, will be accepted by God. Jews that don't follow the law will be rejected by God.

Rom 2:25; The Jewish ceremony of circumcision has value only if you obey God's law. But if you don't obey God's law, you are no better off than an uncircumcised Gentile.
Rom 2:26; And if the Gentiles obey God's law, won't God declare them to be His own people?

The law reveals sin to the entire world, not just the Jews.

Rom 3:19; Obviously, the law applies to those to whom it was given, for its purpose is to keep people from having excuses, and to show that the entire world is guilty before God.

If you have heard the law, it applies to you.

Rom 5:13; Yes, people sinned even before the law was given. But it was not counted as sin because there was not yet any law to break.

Without the law, there is no sin. If Gentiles aren't under the law, we don't need Jesus, because we can't sin.

Rom 2:27; In fact, uncircumcised Gentiles who keep God's law will condemn you Jews who are circumcised and possess God's law but don't obey it.

Sin is still sin, even under the new covenant.

Gal 3:17; This is what I am trying to say: The agreement God made with Abraham could not be canceled 430 years later when God gave the law to Moses. God would be breaking His promise.

The part that changed was how sin is forgiven and reconciled.

 

[spirit1st]

One thing I believe will help each of us LOTS. To never blame others for our sins. Always take the blame and He will forgive and bless you lots.

We do not always see the blessing right away ? Many times it by groweth and also on that day . When we stand before Him and He says well done my faith child.

You will be So happy and full of joy . And the crown will be such a blessing,