once saved, always saved?

[jason h]

The elect only become the elect when they answer the call.

Hey Stan53. I used to wonder if this is how it worked myself. But when I come to these verses like romans 9:11 or 8:28, I cant continue to hold on to the idea that the our choice makes us elect. Ive since concluded that His elect will choose Him because they are elect by His own will, not ours.

John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
John 6:65 “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

Romans 9:11
Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use? What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory


Romans 8:28-30

And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

There's no where in the above verses that show my answering as the mechanism for completing His will to continue. It reads the other way around. Those He called, will come to Him because He's working in their life. He causes that to happen. There shouldnt be any problems about a percieved violation of mans will since man will never choose God on his own. What I see in these verses is that if I love Him, its only because He has caused this to be by His own will. After all its not possible for me to come to God unless im drawn. Most people dont like this, I didnt but its what Jesus said, It smashes my hopes of me resting in my own work(like having faith in my faith, or me choosing Him). But its also very comforting to the mature(im assuming this since im still a babe) Also the last verse, what they call the golden chain i think, works just like a mathematical identity. Those He predestined = those who will be glorified. There isnt a disconnect within that chain. If your familiar with mathematics this will pop out at you since its exactly the same. Basically its all or nothing. This gives me much hope since I do still have fears that I could leave Him. 1 john 2:19 says "they went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." I find If I ever left Him(for good), then I was never His to begin with according to these scriptures. But even then we have to be carefull in how we analyze that. Chad is correct here. Some do go back and forth with God. Ive done this myself. We dont know who will be saved and we might catch someone in a bad place in their life.

By writing this, Im not saying that we dont have to do anything since there are verses that exhort us and warn us. Both extremes are true and play their part within the christians life. My favorite verse for explaining this is the following:

Matthew 11:27-30
“All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

In one paragraph, you not only see clear devine choice that is not arguable since nowhere does it include our will BUT is directly followed by Jesus telling those who are weary and burdened to come to Him. I just accept that our salvation is God's work in spite of us but from our perspective it works itself out with us living our life, making choices and choosing Him.

 

[Stan53]

Let's consider the entire scripture then for a moment. In scripture different types of judgements are mentioned. According to Rom 14:10 and 2 Cor 14:10 there is something called the judgement seat of Christ. In these verses a unique Greek word used is 'bema' which refers to the judge's seat in the Olympic games. The purpose of this judgement is for rewarding faithful believers. The scriptures about running the race, fighting the good fight and striving to win the prize are all in the context of the Olympic games, for obtaining rewards, not for obtaining forgiveness of sins and escape from hellfire. Certainly fighting the good fight and endurance are in scripture and we must do these. But they have no part in our eternal salvation. And if we think we don't have to do things that don't affect our salvation, we have missed the point entirely. If we are in Christ our sins have been forgiven, we are a child of God and we are seated in the heavenly places with Christ. Objectively this is our status as believers.

I tend to doubt this, as those games were to honour Zeus, and Jews would have nothing to do with honouring false gods. Regardless, I agree with WHAT the judgement seat of Christ is.
All the more reason why we SHOULD strive.

Re: " We are NOT secure if we are NOT striving to do His will."
Our security in practice is based upon our new birth, our relationship with the Father as His children - the fact that we are one spirit with the Lord. Striving to do His will is not to secure our eternal salvation, forgiveness of sins or escape from hellfire, but to obtain God's blessing and favor as obedient children.
If one strives to keep the faith or endure or maintain good works for eternal salvation, then Christ's death is of no effect.

Not what James 2:14-26 teaches. Faith WITHOUT works is DEAD.

Not what Paul teaches in Rom 11:22
Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

 

[Stan53]

Hey Stan53. I used to wonder if this is how it worked myself. But when I come to these verses like romans 9:11 or 8:28, I cant continue to hold on to the idea that the our choice makes us elect. Ive since concluded that His elect will choose Him because they are elect by His own will, not ours.

John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
John 6:65 “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

Romans 9:11
Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use? What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory


Romans 8:28-30

And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

There's no where in the above verses that show my answering as the mechanism for completing His will to continue. It reads the other way around. Those He called, will come to Him because He's working in their life. He causes that to happen. There shouldnt be any problems about a percieved violation of mans will since man will never choose God on his own. What I see in these verses is that if I love Him, its only because He has caused this to be by His own will. After all its not possible for me to come to God unless im drawn. Most people dont like this, I didnt but its what Jesus said, It smashes my hopes of me resting in my own work(like having faith in my faith, or me choosing Him). But its also very comforting to the mature(im assuming this since im still a babe) Also the last verse, what they call the golden chain i think, works just like a mathematical identity. Those He predestined = those who will be glorified. There isnt a disconnect within that chain. If your familiar with mathematics this will pop out at you since its exactly the same. Basically its all or nothing. This gives me much hope since I do still have fears that I could leave Him. 1 john 2:19 says "they went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." I find If I ever left Him(for good), then I was never His to begin with according to these scriptures. But even then we have to be carefull in how we analyze that. Chad is correct here. Some do go back and forth with God. Ive done this myself. We dont know who will be saved and we might catch someone in a bad place in their life.

By writing this, Im not saying that we dont have to do anything since there are verses that exhort us and warn us. Both extremes are true and play their part within the christians life. My favorite verse for explaining this is the following:

Matthew 11:27-30
“All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

In one paragraph, you not only see clear devine choice that is not arguable since nowhere does it include our will BUT is directly followed by Jesus telling those who are weary and burdened to come to Him. I just accept that our salvation is God's work in spite of us but from our perspective it works itself out with us living our life, making choices and choosing Him.

I'll just deal with the second item.

Romans 8:28-30
28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.


Those He FOREKNEW. This means those He saw would CHOOSE Jesus. That is the basis. We are NOT predestined to choose or accept Christ. We accept of our own free will and God HAS a plan for us which He completed BEFORE creation. God is not surprised at who chooses Him, nor is He unprepared. The predestination is in regards to becoming LIKE His Son, NOT chosen to be given salvation. The redemption is the shedding of Christ's blood on the cross, Our salvation happens when we follow Romans 10:9-11;
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”


IF, is a BIG word.

 

[spirit1st]

That been the the Question right along ? Is it a FREE GIFT or NOT ?

Some say it a FRE GIFT !

Other say it not a free gift ?

Some say it eternal life ?

Others say it only a daily chance we take ?


Some say we can trust in HIm .
Others say we cannot trust in what HE did . We must work daily for salvation .


But I will say . The scripture saying faith without works means ? It takes a action or faith will not work .

At salvation we do two actions . We accept Him as lord and believe from our heart [Spirit]

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


Rom_4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Rom_4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.


Rom_4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Joh_6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

What if some say ? I do not like what GOD says ? that you only must believe in JESUS CHRIST as LORD. Some might believe we must live perfectly under the law to have this FREE GIFT ?

Gal_3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Rom_6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom_6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Gal_5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.


Gal_3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal_3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Gal_5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Heb_10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Mat_15:11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
Mat_15:20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.
Mar_7:20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.


Why rejoice when one gives HIs life to JESUS ? Maybe they should wait to see if they finish correctly , perfectly ?
Luk_15:10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.

Because our start is a spiritual one and it finished at our beginning in the LORD . He never lost even one child .

He not a loser . He a winner . The losers are those refusing the Free Gift .

Mat_12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

 

[DHC]

All quotes from Romans and conversation involving the letter to the Romans, must conform to the context of the letter.
If you discard context and the subject of the letter you will be in error. If you do not understand the difference between
a Jew and a Gentile you will not understand the letter to the Romans.

Look I will illustrate some verses from Romans 9;

Romans 9
16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

If you think that you can enter heaven by obedience to the law, you are mistaken.
If you think that because you were born in Israel, that you are beloved by God, a
chosen people. You are mistaken, only those who call on Christ will be saved.

God's mercy and God's will has been exerted in Christ Jesus to provide salvation for all.
From eternity past, salvation through Christ was always the perfect will of God. God's children
are those who call on the name of Jesus Christ. God did not predestine only the Jews to
salvation. Obedience to the law is certainly not the criteria for salvation.

Romans 9
23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

Who did God prepare for glory? The Jews? No, God prepared and planned long ago, that only those who accept Jesus will be saved.
This is God's will, the called are not from the Jews only, but also from among the Gentiles.

Still you hold to the idea that only the Jews are the beloved of God and the Gentiles
do not know God. How can the Gentiles be saved you say, that is impossible! Still you believe that
the Gentiles were never the elect. Well, God has revealed to us a much deeper plan and purpose in election.

Romans 9
25 As He says also in Hosea, I will call those who were not My people, My people,

See this was God's intention all along. It is not the chosen, beloved, My People (the Jews) that are saved. It is those who call
on the name of Jesus! My People are from among both the Jews and Gentiles. Once again it does not depend on the man
who runs according to the law. Salvation has only been predestined in Christ.

Romans 9
30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;
31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.
32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works.
They stumbled over the stumbling stone,

Romans is a crucial letter in the New testament, discarding context is a fatal and unforgivable error.

 

[jason h]

Those He FOREKNEW. This means those He saw would CHOOSE Jesus............
.....................The predestination is in regards to becoming LIKE His Son, NOT chosen to be given salvation.

IF, is a BIG word.

Ok I see a little better where you are coming from. I wondered if that is what you believed about foreknowledge but wasnt sure. I myself used to believe that but have found I cant hold on to that view in light of what I see in scripture. I originally grew up not believing in election since I thought it made God unjust. I see now I was wrong. Im not sure how you seperate being like His son and salvation when all those sayings are right in a row in that verse either but again im not sure how you see it in scripture.

As long as we both acknowledge that its Christ alone who secured our salvation I guess it works out in the long run. It does amaze me however that there can be two almost opposite views on this. Have you ever pondered that? Does make me wonder what that even means. Out of curiosity, how do you read romans 9:11 about jacob and esau? For the life of me I cant remember how i delt with that verse before.

If God had a plan for us before creation how is it still our will unless He made it that way? Just curious cause im having trouble with that phrase unless im hearing you wrong.

 

[spirit1st]

Listen I fully believe He saw who were to accept the Free Gift and who was going to be tricked not to accept it .

but i also believe He trying to get others to accept , mostly using us to plant the seeds of truth within them .

It a Fact , He given all mankind the way to accept . Faith .
It also a fact , That His will is for all too be saved .

But we also know it written in His living Words that some will not for sure .

So there is a good reason for us too preach His gospel and plant these seeds of truth , hopefully led by the Holy Ghost and not our understanding .

2Pe_3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


Rom_10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?


2Co_3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.


He has a purpose for each of us . It our own job He called each of us too.

Everyone in the Lord is equally important .Takes all parts to build the perfect body . You are very important .

 

[Stan53]

Ok I see a little better where you are coming from. I wondered if that is what you believed about foreknowledge but wasnt sure. I myself used to believe that but have found I cant hold on to that view in light of what I see in scripture. I originally grew up not believing in election since I thought it made God unjust. I see now I was wrong. Im not sure how you seperate being like His son and salvation when all those sayings are right in a row in that verse either but again im not sure how you see it in scripture.

As long as we both acknowledge that its Christ alone who secured our salvation I guess it works out in the long run. It does amaze me however that there can be two almost opposite views on this. Have you ever pondered that? Does make me wonder what that even means. Out of curiosity, how do you read romans 9:11 about jacob and esau? For the life of me I cant remember how i delt with that verse before.

If God had a plan for us before creation how is it still our will unless He made it that way? Just curious cause im having trouble with that phrase unless im hearing you wrong.

Maybe if you share what you see in scripture, I can address it. As far as Romans 8:28-30 is concerned, I see it the way it is written.
God foreknew those that loved Him
God predestined those to be like Jesus and to become His brothers and sisters.
After He predestined those who love Him, He called and justified and glorified them.(this is when He makes us His elect)

ALL I can say is that the totality of scripture that addresses this issue does NOT support eternal security. God's faithfulness and abilities are NOT called into question in regards to keeping us. What is dubious is that ALL will continue in the faith. The parable of the Sower and the Seed shows not ALL do. Luke 8:13 shows Jesus Himself confirming that some believers fall away.
Romans 9:11 just indicates again, God's foreknowledge and who would be the one to inherit the covenant. He speaks in that foreknowledge in v12 when He says; "The older will serve the younger." This was not based on God programming of Jacob, it was based on His foreknowledge of who Jacob would be. God is NOT a puppet master. He IS our Father/Master/King.

 

[spirit1st]

You all understand ? the churches are full of believers . They just refuse to accept Jesus Christ as LORD and master .

They live a type of Christian life ? but have never fully accepted Him from there hearts [Spirit]

Many pastors preach about Jesus and the bible and are not even born again .

Like Demas , He always amazed me . He traveled with Paul . No doubt He did miracles also in the name of Jesus . Yet was never one of the elect .

2Ti_4:10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.

1Jn_2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.


Listen had we seen Paul and Demas on there travels ? We too would have believed He was a man of GOD.

He had to have suffered with Paul . Why would a person suffer like they did ? Yet never accepted JESUS as Lord and Master ?

what was there reason for doing these works preaching the gospel , yet were not in or of Jesus ?

We see this lots in our churches today . But most do it for money and glory . Might be He did it for glory also ? Doubt there was much money as Paul was always in need it appeared ?

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Lots of people we see in life on T.V. and in these rooms and on the streets and churches , will not be there .

Many think they have eternal life , but are Not Born -again . Which is the main thing .

You know, I had died once thinking I was saved . I did everything the pastor told me . But I never was born again . Nor did I have any understanding of it . He just said ? Say this and i did and nothing happened . We know it when we are Born Again . It just as profound as our first birth and we know it .


I had a big fearful shock . Now i know and try to warn as many people as I can .

I feel many just do not understand ? They appear too love the LORD and do good works .

Some I know are thought of very highly !

Many who are born -again , are looked down upon .
Life amazing really .

When I fast I can see a persons spirit . Lots of wonderful things take place when we fast ?

Because we walk much more in our Spirit and hear Him and know more spiritual knowledge and have greater understanding of the spiritual things .

 

[spirit1st]

It one of the gifts , discerning of spirits . we can tell what kind of spirit the person has .

I have not fasted in a long time.
My problem is ? i did not like having power over others .Most would love it and I know some that trying very hard to be able to have those powers .

I could perceive a lot of what people would say and do .I never have liked anyone looking up to me or counted me more .

I know I am weak in the flesh and every good thing about me is because of HIM. He Alone gets the glory and honor .
It funny but even before I was born again , I never liked anyone bragging on me or lifting me up.

I am Not sure it a good thing or bad thing? I do count it as a flaw now ?

God has given me some wisdom and understanding . But I DO not know everything . I doubt i know much compared too How much there is too know?

 

[james1523]

We who have FAITH have salvation by the grace gift of God. Consequently, armed with that life-giving knowledge, we must run the race of endurance. God doesn't stop with teaching us about how He will deliver us from earthly dangers---He tells us that we have the authority of Christ to command them.

Luke 10:19 Look, I have given you authority over all the power of the enemy, and you can walk among snakes and scorpions and crush them. Nothing will injure you.

There is no sense of using the authority of Christ to command persecutors or deliverance from danger in Scriptures. At times Christ could have used this authority himself, calling on angels etc, but as example to us - He did not. Authority of Christ and commanding is for deliverance from demons, sickness etc. This is particularly true regarding the event Jesus is speaking about - the destruction of Jerusalem. Jesus did not tell them to use commanding authority, but to flee to the hills. They had to endure the trials and tribulations with patience. By heeding Jesus's words many Christians were saved from the destruction of Jerusalem. The context of endurance is to endure the persecutions and tribulations we will face in this life. Endurance is something we add to our faith (2 Peter 1:5-6). Our faith is what saves us. The rest.. endurance, patience, godliness etc.. is on top of that.

 

[james1523]

I tend to doubt this, as those games were to honour Zeus, and Jews would have nothing to do with honouring false gods. Regardless, I agree with WHAT the judgement seat of Christ is.
All the more reason why we SHOULD strive.





Not what James 2:14-26 teaches. Faith WITHOUT works is DEAD.

Not what Paul teaches in Rom 11:22
Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

Paul was not a Jew when he wrote Romans. He obviously used metaphors so that his gentile (and formerly pagan) readers could understand.

The difference is we should endure because we are saved, not endure to be saved.

To believe that "cut off" refers to be sent to the lake of fire for eternity, ignores the most obvious facts about a believers salvation: the fact that God has become Father, the oneness of the believer's spirit with the Holy Spirit, the permanent change which has taken place in the believer's heart, and God's promise to never leave nor forsake etc. "Cut off" can refer to being removed from God's temporal blessings, rewards, or fellowship with the church. Sometimes if your child disobeys you confine them to their room for a time, or tell them to go outside. But they never stop being your child. With God's dealing with His children, the intent of punishment is always to restore back to life.

We have to make a distinction between the foundation and the building. The foundation is secure and permanent, but we may stuff up the building and still be saved. The concept of suffering loss yet being saved is in the bible:
1 Cor 3:15 "If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved--even though only as one escaping through the flames."

 

[Ophel]

There is no sense of using the authority of Christ to command persecutors or deliverance from danger in Scriptures. At times Christ could have used this authority himself, calling on angels etc, but as example to us - He did not. Authority of Christ and commanding is for deliverance from demons, sickness etc. This is particularly true regarding the event Jesus is speaking about - the destruction of Jerusalem. Jesus did not tell them to use commanding authority, but to flee to the hills. They had to endure the trials and tribulations with patience. By heeding Jesus's words many Christians were saved from the destruction of Jerusalem. The context of endurance is to endure the persecutions and tribulations we will face in this life. Endurance is something we add to our faith (2 Peter 1:5-6). Our faith is what saves us. The rest.. endurance, patience, godliness etc.. is on top of that.

What are you talking about? Are you on topic?

We are given the authority of Jesus, and we need to use it. He used it. Now THAT makes sense!

 

[james1523]

What are you talking about? Are you on topic?

We are given the authority of Jesus, and we need to use it. He used it. Now THAT makes sense!

The authority of Jesus is not for escaping persecution. Persecution we must endure or flee. In Matt 26:53 Jesus did not use his authority to escape persecution or tribulation, even though He could have.
To exercise the authority of Jesus without His specific command is to tempt God.

 

[Stan53]

Paul was not a Jew when he wrote Romans. He obviously used metaphors so that his gentile (and formerly pagan) readers could understand.

The difference is we should endure because we are saved, not endure to be saved.

To believe that "cut off" refers to be sent to the lake of fire for eternity, ignores the most obvious facts about a believers salvation: the fact that God has become Father, the oneness of the believer's spirit with the Holy Spirit, the permanent change which has taken place in the believer's heart, and God's promise to never leave nor forsake etc. "Cut off" can refer to being removed from God's temporal blessings, rewards, or fellowship with the church. Sometimes if your child disobeys you confine them to their room for a time, or tell them to go outside. But they never stop being your child. With God's dealing with His children, the intent of punishment is always to restore back to life.

We have to make a distinction between the foundation and the building. The foundation is secure and permanent, but we may stuff up the building and still be saved. The concept of suffering loss yet being saved is in the bible:
1 Cor 3:15 "If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved--even though only as one escaping through the flames."

I suggest you read Acts 21:39, 22:3 and Phil 3:5, which were written about five years AFTER Romans. It was written to believers in ROME, not Greece.

We endure because we are saved to receive Eternal Life, which is the promise of Salvation.

Then you are ignoring the obvious meaning and warning Paul conveys. CUT OFF relates to Jesus as the root, v16, and if any are CUT OFF from the root and are no longer part of Jesus, then where else will they go? If you don't have Eternal Life in Jesus you only have eternal separation from Jesus, which is the lake of fire.

Yes that is true, and is also shown in Luke 8:14, these are immature, but saved.

You see here is the problem with people who believe OSAS. They always have verses they eisegetically present, but never address the ones that show we can fall away.
As I have said before, the totality of scripture must be measured and taken into account.

 

[Ophel]

The authority of Jesus is not for escaping persecution. Persecution we must endure or flee. In Matt 26:53 Jesus did not use his authority to escape persecution or tribulation, even though He could have.
To exercise the authority of Jesus without His specific command is to tempt God.

You have said this:

"Temporal salvation in the sense of deliverance from earthly dangers not eternal salvation from lake of fire."

and this:

"There is no sense of using the authority of Christ to command persecutors or deliverance from danger in Scriptures."

...and you are digging yourself into a hole based on unbelief. Yes, God promises us persecution and doesn't really promise to deliver us out of that, but yet, we can have personal; protection. The Lord promises us that. We will walk through the fire and not be burned, and the flood and not be overcome. Paul was saved from sure death in a shipwreck and Peter was set free from the chains of prison.


God wants us to exercise the authority of Christ at all times. The sad thing is that many Christians don't understand that is something we already have but do not exercise, and so they live defeated lives.

 

[Chad]

Closing this thread. Clearly no one is here to discuss to learn, only to reprove the others wrong.

Here's a suggestion if you wish to continue your OSAS discussion, start a group. Use the group feature in the top menu and start a group discussion there.