More On Replacement Theology

[tulsa 2011]

More On Replacement Theology

Replacement theology says the Roman Catholic Capital C Church replaced physical Israel. That there is a Physical Israel is supported by Romans 9: 6-8: "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7. Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."

The "children of the flesh" are physical Israel. Paul also talks about "Israel after the flesh" in I Corinthians 10:18.

The sure implication of John 3: 1-7 is that there is a Body of Christ which is Israel reborn in Christ. "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Yet there is only one Israel, which is the elect of God. Israel after the flesh is not a people of God.

If the Church did not replace physical Israel, then an alternative teaching might be to say that physical Israel still exists as a people of God, alongside the Capital C Church. The concept of the Capital C Chuch was begun by the Catholic Church.

The theology called dispensationalism has done just that, to teach that God now has two peoples, physical Israel and the church, the ekklesia, the meeting, the assembly or the congregation.

Charles C. Ryrie (born 1925) says of classical dispensationalism that the: "basic primise of Dispensationalism is two purposes of God expressed in the formation of two peoples who maintain their distinction throughout eternity." Charles C. Ryrie, Dispensationalism Today, 1966,pp.44-45.

J. Dwight Pentecost is another dispensationalist theologian who in his book Things To Come ( 1965) says "The church and Israel are two distinct groups with whom God has a divine plan. The church is a mystery, unrevealed in the Old Testament." (page 193, J. Dwight Pentecost, Things To Come, Zondervan, 1965)....

The classical dispensationalists - John Darby, C.I. Scofield, and Lewis S. Chafer - insist that "Israel" in the Old Testament always means physical or ethnic Israel, the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. And - they teach that the Catholic Church did not replace ethnic Israel.

But to postulate - without any scripture - that God now has two different peoples contradicts John 10: 16, "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."

"So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another" (Romans 12: 5).

" For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread" (I Corinthians 10: 17).

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." Galatians 3: 28)

"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;" (Ephesians 4: 4)

The follower of dispensationalism is likely to try to use a dialectic argument against scripture, that is against, John 10; 16, Romans 12: 5, I Corinthians 10: 17. Galatians 3: 28. and Ephesians 4; 4. The dialectic mind rejects absolute truth and accepts shades of grey. It is a double minded mind, and
accepts yea and nay about doctrines taught in the scripture. Those who
use dialectic arguments against the facts of scripture are always looking for
loopholes, shades of grey, contradictions and verses where the meanings and implications
are not spelled out in great detail to hit at with their rejection of
the absolute.

But a dispensationalist dialectic argument does not overthrow John 10: 16, Romans 12: 5, Ephesians 4; 4 and the other scriptures given above. They still stand as absolute truth. When contradicted by dispensationalism, dispensationalism with its two peoples of God becomes another Gospel and false doctrine.

As John 3: 1-7 implies the elect are Israel reborn in Christ. The elect make up Israel reborn in Christ, the spiritual house of I Peter 2: 5.

The New Testament almost always uses ekklesia, translated consistently as congregation by Tyndale, and church in later English translations, as assemblies of the Body of Christ in given locations. Paul does use ekklesia as a collective of many local assemblies in places, such as Ephesians 5: 23 "Christ is the head of the church," and in Ephesians 5: 32, "concerning Christ and the church." And in Colossians 1: 24 Paul writes that "Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:" The Body of Christ is a collective of many assemblies at various places. Yet Paul cannot be using "church" as a Body of Christ, as those who are the elect, as a different group than Israel reborn in Christ.

The assembly, in so far as those in it are the elect, are born again, transformed in Christ, having his mind in them (Phillipians 3: 5), is the Body of Christ. Paul explains being born again in Romans 12; 2, "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." Transformed is from metamorphoomi, being born again is a metamorphosis of those in Christ, a major change in the characteristics of the individual, marking the beginning of his spirit. The spirit as a child of God, in Christ Jesus, lives in the house forever (John 8: 35, "...and the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abiideth ever"). To be transformed in Christ is to have the mind of Christ, to be spiritually occupied by Him. "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:" Philippians 2: 5

Instead of being replaced by the Capital C Catholic Church, physical Israel underwent a major change, a metamorphosis, which made it that spiritual house of I Peter 2: 5, "Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ."
This change in physical Israel is seen in the parable of the fig tree of Luke 13: 6-9, in which the Father finds the tree - physical Israel - bears no fruit and says to cut it down, but Christ as the dresser of the vineyard asks to allow him to give he tree new life by digging about it and giving it some fertilizer.

The transformation of physical Israel is first seen way back in the Old Testament.
In Isaiah 19: 25 God calls, though the prophet Isaiah, Israel his
inheritance. "Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be
Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine
inheritance."

God never said that something called the "church" was his inheritance,
even after he had carried out his promise to turn Jerusalem, or
physical Israel, upside down in II Kings 21: 13. God's offspring, his
inheritance, has always been Israel.

In II Kings 21: 14 God says "And I will forsake the remnant of mine
inheritance, and deliver them into the hand of their enemies; and they
shall become a prey and a spoil to all their enemies;"

The "remnant of mine inheritance" is "Israel mine inheritance of
Isaiah 19;25. God says he is going to forsake Israel, or at that time
physical Israel. Why? Because in II Kings 21: 15 "Because they have
done that which was evil in my sight,and have provoked me to anger,
since the day their fathers came forth out of Egypt, even unto this
day."

And here is what God in II Kings 21: 13 says he will do as a result of
Israel having done that which was evil in his sight: "And I will
stretch over Jerusalem the line of Samaria, and the plummet of the
house of Ahab: and I will wipe Jerusalem as a man wipeth a dish,
wiping it, and turning it upside down."

The "plummet" refers to the plumbline in Amos 7: 8, "And the LORD
said unto me, Amos, what seest thou? And I said, A plumbline. Then
said the Lord, Behold, I will set a plumbline in the midst of my
people Israel: I will not again pass by them any more:"

The plumbline is the line of God's judgment on a people or on an
individual. Behavior that falls on the wrong side of the plumbline is
judged by God.

In II Kings 21: 13 God promises he will turn Jerusalem, or ethnic
Israel, upside down. Turning them upside down is his judgment upon
them for doing that which is evil in the sight of God.

Isaiah 29: 16 comments on this promise to turn Israel upside down.
There Isaiah says "Surely your turning of things upside down shall be
esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made
it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed
it, He had no understanding?"

God's turning of things upside down is to be esteemed as the potter's
clay. This refers to Jeremiah 18: 2-7. "Arise, and
go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my
words. Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought
a work on
the wheels. And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the
hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good
to the
potter to make it. Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, O
house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD.
Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O
house of Israel. At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation,
and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to
destroy it;"

The Lord first made a vessel on his potter's wheel which was marred.
This represents physical Israel in apostasy. Then the Lord made that
same lump of clay into a different vessel as seemed good to him to
make it. A potter who does not like the pot he has thrown on the wheel
can take it off, mix it with dry clay kneed it again, put it back on
the wheel and throw a different pot with that same lump of clay. In
the past I did this when I was a potter.

This parable of the potter's clay illustrates that physical Israel was
not simply replaced by Israel reborn in Jesus Christ, but one lump of
clay was remade into a better vessel, one that the Lord saw as being
good. Ethnic Israel was translated or transformed into Israel born
again. If a person is not transformed in Christ, he is not a part of the elect,
Israel reborn in Christ.

But on the topic of the ekklesia, the "church" being a people of God different than physical Israel, discussed above, here is an important scripture: In the parable of the sower of Matthew 13; 24-30, verses 25 to 30 say "But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28. He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29. But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."

Christ acknowledges that tares have been sowed in his wheat field by the enemy. I know that Matthew 13: 38 says the field is the world and the good seed are the children of the kingdom. But Christ says let the wheat and the tares grow together. What are the wheat and the tares together in? Christ tells his servants not to pull up the tares because they might also pull up the wheat, not always knowing which is the elect and which is the tare. The ekklesia would then include tares along the elect, and after the beginning of the falling away of II Thessalonians 2:3, supported by several other New Testament texts on a departure from sound doctrine, the church would be made up of more and more tares, until it becomes the Babylon of Revelation 17 and 18, a tare church. So, the ekklesia or church cannot be equated with the elect Body of Christ, Israel reborn in Christ, the Israel of God (Galatians 6: 16) and Romans 11: 26 "and so all Israel shall be saved." Contrary to John Darby, C.I. Scofield, Lewis S. Chafer and many other dispensationalists Paul does not use "Israel" to mean physical Israel a hundred percent of the time

 

[B-A-C]

Replacement theology says the Roman Catholic Capital C Church replaced physical Israel. That there is a Physical Israel is supported by Romans 9:6-8: "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

I doubt few of us dispensationalists would include the RCC church as "the church".

 

[james1523]

I never understood this notion of physical Israel and non-physical church.

I am a person with an unseen spiritual part and seen physical part. I am not a ghost. I am part of the church, and so are the many brothers and sisters I meet with. So how can you say the church is not physical?

 

[B-A-C]

The "children of the flesh" are physical Israel. Paul also talks about "Israel after the flesh" in I Corinthians 10:18.

There may be some "dispensationalists' who believe this, but none that I know.
Although we Gentiles can have circumcised heart. ( Col 2:11; ) Calling yourself a Jew (if you are really a Gentile) is a dangerous thing. ( Rev 2:9; Rev 3:9; )
Children of the flesh, are just sinners, Gentiles or Jews.

 

[Puddleglum]

I never understood this notion of physical Israel and non-physical church.

I am a person with an unseen spiritual part and seen physical part. I am not a ghost. I am part of the church, and so are the many brothers and sisters I meet with. So how can you say the church is not physical?

Is not the Holy Spirit in you ?
That is what it means if one does not have the Holy Spirit you are dead. not a true Christian born again. as you can't truly be born again without the Holy Spirit working in you.
The Church is the people in the Holy Spirit. not a building at all or just people who just go to church.
Jacob was called Israel for a reason and it is in this as it is the foundation of true Israel. the tribes are another thing .
There was only one son of Israel who stands out beyond his brothers and only one of his sons even though the two were placed higher than the others. from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel.
Israel is not a democracy, that's the golden calf mob that push that. and you see this lot were within the tribes. and are not the people of God at all. democracy is not a wellspring or a rock but just a system of man. and people need God as the fountain or rock 1st then democracy can have health. without it you see just mob rule, a bunch of goats.

 

[Puddleglum]

There may be some "dispensationalists' who believe this, but none that I know.
Although we Gentiles can have circumcised heart. ( Col 2:11; ) Calling yourself a Jew (if you are really a Gentile) is a dangerous thing. ( Rev 2:9; Rev 3:9; )
Children of the flesh, are just sinners, Gentiles or Jews.

When Stephen was informing about the history ? were that lot Jews or of the synagogue of Satan ?

 

[B-A-C]

When Stephen was informing about the history ? were that lot Jews or of the synagogue of Satan ?

Act 6:8; And Stephen, full of grace and power, was performing great wonders and signs among the people.
Act 6:9; But some men from what was called the Synagogue of the Freedmen, including both Cyrenians and Alexandrians, and some from Cilicia and Asia, rose up and argued with Stephen.
Act 6:10; But they were unable to cope with the wisdom and the Spirit with which he was speaking.
Act 6:11; Then they secretly induced men to say, "We have heard him speak blasphemous words against Moses and against God."
Act 6:12; And they stirred up the people, the elders and the scribes, and they came up to him and dragged him away and brought him before the Council.
Act 6:13; They put forward false witnesses who said, "This man incessantly speaks against this holy place and the Law;
Act 6:14; for we have heard him say that this Nazarene, Jesus, will destroy this place and alter the customs which Moses handed down to us."

Act 6:1; Now at this time while the disciples were increasing in number, a complaint arose on the part of the Hellenistic Jews against the native Hebrews, because their widows were being overlooked in the daily serving of food.

Well, they weren't all Jews. They were "Cyrenians and Alexandrians, and some from Cilicia and Asia". (verse 9)
As far as the scriptures above say, they never called themselves Jews. However they did agree that they should follow the law of Moses.
Some scholars believe the Synagogue of the Freedmen (some Bibles say Libertines) were men (not necessarily all Jews) who were freed slaves from Libya. It is suspected they followed Hellenistic (Greek philosophy) practices.
You don't have to be a Jew to be a member of "the synagogue of Satan", but you don't have to be a Gentile either.

 

[james1523]

Is not the Holy Spirit in you ?
That is what it means if one does not have the Holy Spirit you are dead. not a true Christian born again. as you can't truly be born again without the Holy Spirit working in you.
The Church is the people in the Holy Spirit. not a building at all or just people who just go to church.
Jacob was called Israel for a reason and it is in this as it is the foundation of true Israel. the tribes are another thing .
There was only one son of Israel who stands out beyond his brothers and only one of his sons even though the two were placed higher than the others. from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel.
Israel is not a democracy, that's the golden calf mob that push that. and you see this lot were within the tribes. and are not the people of God at all. democracy is not a wellspring or a rock but just a system of man. and people need God as the fountain or rock 1st then democracy can have health. without it you see just mob rule, a bunch of goats.

Physical Israel means "physical, unspiritual Israel". Spiritual church means "physical, spiritual church" aka "physical and spiritual Israel".
I believe physical church replaced physical Israel. Simply because the bible says the church is spiritual Israel and we cannot have spirit without physical therefore church is physical Israel.
We have physical, unspiritual Israel, and physical, spiritual Israel (or church). Physical Israel is not spiritual but fleshly, carnal and natural. The church is both spiritual and physical. If the church is not physical, are we all ghosts? The church is meant to be seen on the Earth (c.f. Jesus's words about us being lamps/lights).

 

[tulsa 2011]

In II Kings 21: 15 the Lord says "Because they have
done that which was evil in my sight,and have provoked me to anger,
since the day their fathers came forth out of Egypt, even unto this
day."

And here is what God in II Kings 21: 13 says he will do as a result of
Israel having done that which was evil in his sight: "And I will
stretch over Jerusalem the line of Samaria, and the plummet of the
house of Ahab: and I will wipe Jerusalem as a man wipeth a dish,
wiping it, and turning it upside down."

Isaiah 29: 16 comments on this promise to turn Israel upside down.
There Isaiah says "Surely your turning of things upside down shall be
esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made
it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed
it, He had no understanding?"

God's turning of things upside down is to be esteemed as the potter's
clay. This refers to Jeremiah 18: 2-7. "Arise, and
go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my
words. Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought
a work on
the wheels. And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the
hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good
to the
potter to make it. Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, O
house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD.
Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O
house of Israel. At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation,
and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to
destroy it;"

God first made a vessel on his potter's wheel which was marred.
This represents physical Israel in apostasy. Then the Lord made that
same lump of clay into a different vessel as seemed good to him to
make it. A potter who does not like the pot he has thrown on the wheel
can take it off, mix it with dry clay kneed it again, put it back on
the wheel and throw a different pot with that same lump of clay. In
the past I did this when I was a potter.

Ethnic Israel was translated or transformed into Israel born
again. Israel reborn in Christ became the spiritual house of I Peter
2: 5, "Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an
holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God
by Jesus Christ."

By the children of the flesh in Romans 9: 8 Paul is describing that part of ethnic Israel which
is not the Israel he calls the children of the promise who are counted as the seed. There really is no physical Israel after the Cross. Those of ethnic Israel who rejected Christ are cut off as Romans 11: 17, 19-20. But to help his readers understand what he is saying Paul here divides ethnic Israel into Israel after the flesh and Israel of the promise who are the spiritual seed of Abraham and the seed of God.

To put it another way that Israel which is the spiritual seed of Abraham (Galatians 3: 28-29) is born again in Christ (John 3: 1-6), and what Paul in Romans 9: 8 calls the children of the flesh are not born again. They are not transformed as John 3: 3, 7 says must happen to enter the kingdom of God.

Scripture refers to man's spirit in several places. For example I Corinthians 2: 11 says "For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God."

"To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." I Corinthians 5: 5

"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." James 2: 26

Man was created to have three parts, body, mind and spirit. Mind and body are flesh. As James says, the body without the spirit is dead. This is what Christ means in Luke 9: 60, "Let the dead bury their dead."

Christ said "I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10: 10
He means he came to bring life in the Spirit which inspires man's spirit to life.

Unless one is born again in Christ by the Holy Spirit, his own human spirit is dead. The children of the flesh are those not born again, who live in the body and in the mind, and not in the spirit. Yet Paul in Romans 9: 8 uses children of the flesh in a specific way, to explain that a part of ethnic Israel was born again while another part was not born again, and remained in the flesh.

The children of the promise in Romans 9: 8 made it through the transition or metamorphosis of Israel predicted in II Kings 21: 13, Isaiah 29: 16 and Jeremiah 18: 1-7. Christ the dresser of the vineyard of Luke 13: 6-9 gave he fig tree - ethnic Israel - new life, and in the process pruned it down to that remnant Paul talks about in Romans 11: 5, which made the transition and were reborn in Christ. Israel was not replaced, nor did it end as God's inheritance; it was changed, and reborn as a remnant.

The ekklesia in the New Testament almost always is an assembly, a meting of Christians, or a congregation at a specific place. Paul sometimes uses ekklesia as a collective of many local congregations. But he says in Romans 12: 5, "So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another".

"For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread" (I Corinthians 10: 17).

"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;" (Ephesians 4: 4)

"...there shall be one fold and one shepherd.' John 10: 16

There is one identity in Christ, one Body of Christ, whether its called the Saints, the ekklesia as a collective of many congregations of Christians or Israel as those of the promise who are the seed, that is, the elect, Jerusalem which is above, is free and is the mother of us all (Galatians 4: 26), or as implied in John 3: 1-7, Israel reborn in Christ. This one identity is not that institution called the Church, though in the New Testament ekklesia is translated as church in the English translations later than the Tyndale Bible, which consistently uses congregation. The Church has undergone the falling away of II Thessalonians 2: 3. The elect began as a remnant of ethnic Israel transformed into the spiritual house of I Peter 2: 5-9, and now the elect is a remnant..

 

[Puddleglum]

Physical Israel means "physical, unspiritual Israel". Spiritual church means "physical, spiritual church" aka "physical and spiritual Israel".
I believe physical church replaced physical Israel. Simply because the bible says the church is spiritual Israel and we cannot have spirit without physical therefore church is physical Israel.
We have physical, unspiritual Israel, and physical, spiritual Israel (or church). Physical Israel is not spiritual but fleshly, carnal and natural. The church is both spiritual and physical. If the church is not physical, are we all ghosts? The church is meant to be seen on the Earth (c.f. Jesus's words about us being lamps/lights).

The Church is guided by the Spirit formost.
Are we ghosts ? we are lead by the Holy Spirit formost in our lifes and so we are Spiritual beings, the light of the world.
True Israel is that in it's fulness of understanding guided by God, but until his son came and ones who were guided by God (Israel) would be able to know who Jesus was. now some knew who Jesus was but they were corrupted with the worldly. like the richman etc. they can't give it up. remember the eye of the ? and camel thing.

 

[Bambi]

Christ tells his servants not to pull up the tares because they might also pull up the wheat, not always knowing which is the elect and which is the tare. The ekklesia would then include tares along the elect, and after the beginning of the falling away of II Thessalonians 2:3, supported by several other New Testament texts on a departure from sound doctrine, the church would be made up of more and more tares, until it becomes the Babylon of Revelation 17 and 18, a tare church. So, the ekklesia or church cannot be equated with the elect Body of Christ, Israel reborn in Christ, the Israel of God (Galatians 6: 16) and Romans 11: 26 "and so all Israel shall be saved."

I don't believe there will be a falling away of the church Matt 16:18 states that. I believe the falling away isn't the church but physical Israel. Ekklesia or the church and the body of Christ are one in the same. The Babylon of Revelation is the nation of Israel. Old Testament passages relate Israel to a harlot. The church will never be a harlot. Those in the church now who are living like the world are either immature Christians who haven't learned, backslidden believers or not believers at all. I think part of the reason some of these people are allowed to stay in the church is we are to afraid to do church discipline or we don't understand liberty. Physical Israel fell away because it wasn't spiritual Israel too. The wheat and the tares is what the kingdom of God looks like now. Jesus talks about the kingdom being something small then growing into something bigger. The mustard seed, the leaven. The wheat and the tares are groups of people, saved and unsaved, elect and non-elect. In the kingdom we are living side by side and when Christ returns that will be the harvest and he will divide the wheat and the tares and the goats from the sheep.

 

[james1523]

I don't believe there will be a falling away of the church Matt 16:18 states that. I believe the falling away isn't the church but physical Israel. Ekklesia or the church and the body of Christ are one in the same. The Babylon of Revelation is the nation of Israel. Old Testament passages relate Israel to a harlot. The church will never be a harlot. Those in the church now who are living like the world are either immature Christians who haven't learned, backslidden believers or not believers at all. I think part of the reason some of these people are allowed to stay in the church is we are to afraid to do church discipline or we don't understand liberty. Physical Israel fell away because it wasn't spiritual Israel too. The wheat and the tares is what the kingdom of God looks like now. Jesus talks about the kingdom being something small then growing into something bigger. The mustard seed, the leaven. The wheat and the tares are groups of people, saved and unsaved, elect and non-elect. In the kingdom we are living side by side and when Christ returns that will be the harvest and he will divide the wheat and the tares and the goats from the sheep.

You state that the kingdom of God includes wheat and tares. But tares cannot belong to the kingdom of God, or the church or the body of Christ, so they cannot be taken out. The context of Jesus's words about wheat and tares, is that they will be taken out of the world at the end of the age. In the church, the kingdom of God, the body of Christ, is only wheat. Those unbelievers, tares, that attend your church on Sunday are not part of the church. Just because they walk through the door and attend the service doesn't make them part of the church.

 

[Bambi]

You state that the kingdom of God includes wheat and tares. But tares cannot belong to the kingdom of God, or the church or the body of Christ, so they cannot be taken out. The context of Jesus's words about wheat and tares, is that they will be taken out of the world at the end of the age. In the church, the kingdom of God, the body of Christ, is only wheat. Those unbelievers, tares, that attend your church on Sunday are not part of the church. Just because they walk through the door and attend the service doesn't make them part of the church.

Your right my mistake tares and goats can't be in the kingdom nor the church, etc.

 

[tulsa 2011]

"Those unbelievers, tares, that attend your church on Sunday are not part of the church. Just because they walk through the door and attend the service doesn't make them part of the church."

I just wrote a comment elsewhere about the church at this point in time being the Body of Christ, the elect. If you define the church as being the elect, that follows dispensationalism more than scripture, even though Paul in Colossians 1: 24 says the Body of Christ is the ekklesia. There are important New Testament scriptures which do not identify that Israel which was transformed as the ekklesia, such as John 3: 1-6 on being born again, or Ephesians 2: 11-19, on the Gentiles who are once aliens from the commonwealth of Israel now made close to that Israel. In the texts where Paul deals with the issue of the identity of Israel transformed and another Israel which rejected Christ - in Romans 2:28-29, Romans 9: 6-8, Romans 11, and Galatians 4: 25-26 - he never says that those transformed in Christ or the Gentiles grafted in with them, in Christ, are the ekklesia. And there is that problem of what ekklesia means as opposed to what church has come to mean since Paul wrote.

Paul uses ekklesia in Ephesians 5: 23, "Christ is the head of the ekklesia," and in Colossians 1: 24, for example. Where he says "Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:" He means by "body. " the Body of Christ and says the Body is the ekklesia.

"This one identity is not that institution called the Church, though in the New Testament ekklesia is translated as church in the English translations later than the Tyndale Bible (1526), which consistently uses congregation." I am implying that ekklesia and what the Catholics and dispensationalists mean by the "church" are not the same thing."

The ekklesia in the New Testament almost always is an assembly, a meeting of Christians, or a congregation at a specific place. Paul sometimes uses ekklesia as a collective of many local congregations. But he says in Romans 12: 5, "So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another".

"For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread" (I Corinthians 10: 17).

"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;" (Ephesians 4: 4)

"...there shall be one fold and one shepherd.' John 10: 16

There cannot be the church and ethnic Israel as two different groups who are now the people of God.

Ekklesia, Strong's Number 1577, is said to mean "...a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation, Jewish synagogue or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both."

This is not what the Catholics or the dispensationalists mean now by the capital C Church as a Body of Christ different from whatever you want to call that part of ethnic Israel which rejects Christ.

 

[james1523]

"Those unbelievers, tares, that attend your church on Sunday are not part of the church. Just because they walk through the door and attend the service doesn't make them part of the church."

I just wrote a comment elsewhere about the church at this point in time being the Body of Christ, the elect. If you define the church as being the elect, that follows dispensationalism more than scripture, even though Paul in Colossians 1: 24 says the Body of Christ is the ekklesia. There are important New Testament scriptures which do not identify that Israel which was transformed as the ekklesia, such as John 3: 1-6 on being born again, or Ephesians 2: 11-19, on the Gentiles who are once aliens from the commonwealth of Israel now made close to that Israel. In the texts where Paul deals with the issue of the identity of Israel transformed and another Israel which rejected Christ - in Romans 2:28-29, Romans 9: 6-8, Romans 11, and Galatians 4: 25-26 - he never says that those transformed in Christ or the Gentiles grafted in with them, in Christ, are the ekklesia. And there is that problem of what ekklesia means as opposed to what church has come to mean since Paul wrote.

Paul uses ekklesia in Ephesians 5: 23, "Christ is the head of the ekklesia," and in Colossians 1: 24, for example. Where he says "Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:" He means by "body. " the Body of Christ and says the Body is the ekklesia.

"This one identity is not that institution called the Church, though in the New Testament ekklesia is translated as church in the English translations later than the Tyndale Bible (1526), which consistently uses congregation." I am implying that ekklesia and what the Catholics and dispensationalists mean by the "church" are not the same thing."

The ekklesia in the New Testament almost always is an assembly, a meeting of Christians, or a congregation at a specific place. Paul sometimes uses ekklesia as a collective of many local congregations. But he says in Romans 12: 5, "So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another".

"For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread" (I Corinthians 10: 17).

"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;" (Ephesians 4: 4)

"...there shall be one fold and one shepherd.' John 10: 16

There cannot be the church and ethnic Israel as two different groups who are now the people of God.

Ekklesia, Strong's Number 1577, is said to mean "...a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation, Jewish synagogue or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both."

This is not what the Catholics or the dispensationalists mean now by the capital C Church as a Body of Christ different from whatever you want to call that part of ethnic Israel which rejects Christ.

Exactly.

Most of our English Bibles are corrupted with the wrong English word for ekklesia. The word church should not appear in our bibles for the word ekklesia.

The Greek word ekklesia literally means "called out", or "the called out ones" - Ek (out) klesia (called). It refers to all called out ones within a particular area.

The English word "church" comes from Old English/Germanic and refers to the building where Christians meet for church services. The meaning has also changed to mean the religious institution by which Christians identify themselves.

The meaning of ekklesia is called out people from a particular area. In our bibles the meaning has been changed to mean the place where Christians meet, or the institution or religion in which they meet. More appropriate translation would be "assembly" or "congregation". But even these words can be misunderstood - if we think it refers only to the act of assembling or congregating, rather than the believers themselves. Just because people assemble together, doesn't mean they are part of His ekklesia. The ekklesia will assemble together, but assembling together doesn't make you one of the ekklesia.

According to the meaning of the word church as the place where Christians gather.. an unbeliever or tare can certainly be part of this gathering and be part of the church. This is why most Christians think Jesus will remove unbelievers/tares from His "church", without realising that ekklesia cannot have any unbelievers in it. According to the meaning of the word ekklesia an unbeliever or tare cannot be part .

What the Catholics mean by the word Church, is the religious institution or the place where Christians gather to meet. This meaning has been carried over into Protestantism by the church of England and other institutions which came out of Catholicism. The King James Version bible was written by the church of England and retains a Catholic-based understanding of church.

Roman Catholicism and Protestantism is wrong because there is no such thing as a worldwide Church institution or organisation.. there is only the ekklesia, called out ones in each local area.

When Christ said He will build His church in Matt 16:18, He meant He will build a group of people who are called out ones in each local area. Collectively they are His Body, the Body of Christ. He did not mean he will build a religious institution or buildings where Christians gather.

 

[Puddleglum]

I have never regarded in this sense the Church as being a building, but the body of Christ and that being the Church as they are in Christ, one of his flock. and i have never seen the RC Church say any differently that's for sure. as that would just be so foolish.
I am going to Church, ? that is i am going to go to meet with the followers of Christ our Lord and Saviour at a place called a Church- the gathering place of the faithfull.
You need not go to some building at all. to come to Christ.

 

[tulsa 2011]

"The ecclesia or ekklesia was the principal assembly of the democracy of ancient Athens during its "Golden Age" (480–404 BCE). It was the popular assembly, opened to all male citizens with 2 years of military service by Solon in 594 BC meaning that all classes of citizens in Athens were able to participate."

"This citation from God’s Word . . . should be, to all Scripture-loyal people, sufficient by itself to establish the word’s first-century meaning, but extra-New Testament literature furnishes additional support. In Himerius (4th century AD), Orations 39,5, the word ekklesia was used to refer to a group or gathering of animals in the Thracian mountains. In Diogenes Laertius (3rd century AD), 8,41, Hermippus used the word to refer to the community of Pythagoras. Josephus (1st century) Antiquities, 12,164; 19,332 uses the word, as Acts 19:39 does, to refer to a regularly summoned political body. I Maccabees (1st century BC) 3:13 uses the word as "gathering" or "meeting." These writings are by no means presented here as divinely inspired, but they perform for us the very important service of showing us the meaning of words in first-century minds. They, as well as Acts 19, support the fact that first-century people were in the habit of using the word ekklesia to mean "assembly, group, gathering."

Called out as part of the definition of ekklesia is not limited to being called out of the world to Christ. "The word ekklesia was a Greek compound noun made by combining the words ek (out of) and kaleo (I call)......." People are called out to a meeting. "The Greeks used the term to denote any assembly of persons called out, or called together, for any specific purpose."

"It is probably associated with the Scottish kirk, the Latin circus/circulous, the Greek klukos, because the congregations were gathered in circles." "It" is the word church.

"Throughout England, pagan religious gatherings were always held at a circle. The Druids with their Stonehenge, the Celts, and Saxons also met at stone circles, to worship their gods. Many of these stone circles still exist throughout England and about twenty eight are found in the Wyclife's Yorkshire area. Many of the first English Christian buildings for worship were located on these circle sites or were built using stones from these circles. Through this association, the people of Wyclife's day continued to call these buildings a "kirk"(Scottish), a cirice (Old English), or chirche (Wyclife's version), each variation meaning "circle" and describing a place-occult-and not the people."

"Although we can see Wyclife's rationale for using the word "church" or "circle" as common to his day, it was not suitable then or now, since it does not meet the meaning or intent of the original word—a reference to people. Because "church" or "circle" describes a place, the real meaning of ekklesia is lost. The better translation, "congregation", was used by most other translations after Wyclife, except the Geneva Bible and the one authorized by King James—the later being the foundation of our modern versions."

To avoid confusion and the false doctrines that can arise from the use of "church" as the elect of Christ now in 2013 the Greek word ekklesia should be used and the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance definition of ekklesia as people being called out to a meeting, an assembly, or a congregation should be kept in mind. In Paul's day almost all the people who met in houses to hear leaders, or the disciples of Paul, preach - and the people in the assembly could also talk - were saved, were of the elect.

This means that the elect, all those saved in Christ,. should not be called the "church," but called by the words used in the New Testament, the elect, the Body of Christ, or the saints. The ekklesia is a meeting, no matter what the number of people who get together, of the Body of Christ. And some who have not yet been transformed or born again by having the mind of Christ may come to the meetings. And - in our time the highways and byways of Luke 14: 23 can also be the Internet. "And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled." Those who now have the testimony of Jesus Christ are often scattered over the country and even over the world, but can get together on the Internet, on blogs, web sites, social media sites and Skype, at least for now. And those who are beginning to have an interest in that testimony can join them.

The teaching that those born again of any race are transformed Israel is in scripture, though it is not spelled out or spoon fed. For example, its implied in Ephesians 2: 11-19. And that somewhat metaphoric statement of Paul in Galatians 4: 25-26, "But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all" in contrast to "Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children" is loaded with meaning about who is the Body of Christ. If we combine this somewhat metaphoric teaching with Galatians 3: 3-29 on what Abraham's seed is in the New Covenant, and the cryptic message about the "Israel of God" in Galatians 6: 16, there is the sure implication that the "Israel of God" is the elect Body of Christ, made up of people of all races. The Israel of God could be made more explicit by saying "the Israel which is of God," as contrasted to "the children of the flesh, these are not the Children of God" of Romans 9: 8. Those of ethnic Israel who rejected Christ are not the Israel of God, though they make the claim that they are still Israel.

There is one Body of Christ, one fold as Christ says in John 10: 16, and this is Israel reborn in Christ (John 3: 1-7). Because the teaching that the Body of Christ is Israel reborn in him is not spelled out or spoon fed, man-made theology has been able to claim that God now has two different peoples of God, the Jews and the Church. But those who rely on their identity in Christ as being the Church, and not Israel reborn, are in danger of trying to crash the wedding supper of the Lamb (Matthew 22: 2-14) having on the wrong garment.

 

[DutchChristian]

Please note that:

Dispensationalism is of the devil!

Have nothing to do with it, flee run away from it!

Repent and believe the True Gospel!

 

[james1523]

Even I though I use it myself, strictly speaking the phrase "church is the people" is not correct because church originally and properly means the place in which Christians gather, rather than the gathering of Christians themselves. Now that we understand that church is the place, we may freely say "I am going to church", and refer to a building as a church. But we can keep in mind that the word church in this sense of a place is not the meaning in God's Word. Also to say "I am part of the church", makes no sense, it is saying " I am part of the building or place in which I gather with other Christians".

 

[ewq1938]

If the Church did not replace physical Israel,

It's more like this: God choose 12 sons to become his chosen people, no people before this had that title. They weren't created especially to be his chosen, he just chose them. That means he can unchoose them and re-choose someone else. So with Jesus there is a change of who is now God's chosen people. Once it was those 12 sons and their children etc, but that is no longer the case and the chosen now are those who choose Christ as Saviour. That applies to any race and people, no longer through family genealogy. So the Church, Christian's didn't replace Israel per se', they were the new chosen people. Those former chosen one's were and are freely allowed to choose Christ and become chosen again.

then an alternative teaching might be to say that physical Israel still exists as a people of God, alongside the Capital C Church.

No, it is written those who aren't Christian are pruned from the tree which symbolizes who Israel is. They are no longer the chosen, no longer true Israel.