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Partial Preterism

I believe you two have proven my point.

1. Jesus came in 70 AD, but not in his true self. He came in the form of clouds.
2. God showed himself to Old Testament people not in his true self, but in clouds, fire, etc.
3. Jesus will come again in the future in his true self.
4. God if he showed his true self to those in the Old Testament, people would have instantly died, so he had to hide himself.
Moses was the only one who just had a glimpse of God's true self but never saw the face of God. Exo 33:20

I hope this explains better my interpretation of Matt 24:30.

Hello Bambi.

I would disagree with your conclusion, though you are entitled to your opinion.

How do you read the following verses Bambi?

Acts 1
9 And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud
received Him out of their sight.
10 And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white
clothing stood beside them.
11 They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has
been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him
go into heaven.”

It appears from this extract that there is one departure and then one future arrival by Jesus.
The angels do state 'will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go'.
The return of Jesus will be visible and a one time event, not multiple returns.
'Fascinating' I must say that you have the multiple returns of Jesus about which the
scripture is silent.
 
One of the basic tenets of the preterist paradigm is the belief that Antiochus Epiphanes is the antichrist alluded to throughout the NT scripture. There are a number of preterist beliefs, but it is my contention that this one above all others, if roiundly proven to be false, brings down the house of sand that preterism is built on.

Let me in detail give my reasons why I believe Antiochus cannot be the little horn of Daniel 7.
a. Antiochus does not rise after 10 kings. He was the 8th king in the Syrian line of Seleucid kings. Besides, the prophecy calls for 10 kingdoms to exist contemporaneously, not successively.
b. Antiochus belonged to the 3rd empire (Greece) in actual historical sequence from Daniel’s time.
c. He was not ‘diverse’ from any other king.
d. He did not ‘pluck up’ 3 other kings.
e. He was not ‘stouter’ than his fellows. His father was known as Antiochus the Great, not Epiphanes.
f. He did not prevail until the end of time, the judgment.
g. The kingdom following Greece was Rome, not the kingdom of the saints. And it is Rome, albeit in a different form as the prophecy demands (part clay part iron) that endures to the judgement.


Reasons why Antiochus cannot be the little horn of Daniel 8.
a. Antiochus was not a horn in his own right. He was of the Seleucid line therefore was a part of one of the four heads that grew from the 3rd beast.
b. He did not wax exceeding great. In fact his father was greater, but neither was as great as even Babylon or Media Persia, certainly no greater than Alexander. Yet the prophecy demands that the little horn be greater than any empire before it.
c. He does not fit the time periods. According to Maccabees 1:54,59, and 4:52 Antiochus suppressed the sacrifices exactly 3 years. This fits neither the 1260 days , (times time and half a time,) nor the 2300 days (evenings and mornings of Daniel 8:14). These figures do not compliment one another NOR do they meet the reign of Antiochus.
d. The 2300 days is prophetic. Using the day/year principle established elsewhere as being the standard and norm for interpreting prophetic time periods, it is a literal 2300 years.
 
Let me ask you this. When it comes to the Rapture are you Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, or Post-Trib?
 
I would agree with you I don't believe Antiochus has anything to do with Daniel 7 or 8. I believe you will find him in chapter 11.
 
Let me ask you this. When it comes to the Rapture are you Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, or Post-Trib?
Ummmm....rapture? Hi Bambi, I'm a protestant of the sola scriptura variety. The only place where I have found anything akin to the modern interpretation of 'rapture' is the passage of Paul's which says "and we which remain alive will be changed etc". This takes place at the second coming of Jesus...after the plagues.
 
Ummmm....rapture? Hi Bambi, I'm a protestant of the sola scriptura variety. The only place where I have found anything akin to the modern interpretation of 'rapture' is the passage of Paul's which says "and we which remain alive will be changed etc". This takes place at the second coming of Jesus...after the plagues.

You say after the plagues. Is this return found in Revelation, if so where?

Still waiting on DHC's reply.
 
You say after the plagues. Is this return found in Revelation, if so where?

Still waiting on DHC's reply.

Hello Bambi.

I thought that you were asking Brakelite about his eschatology.

I favor the post tribulation variation, though with reservation.
 
Hello Bambi.

I would disagree with your conclusion, though you are entitled to your opinion.

How do you read the following verses Bambi?

Acts 1
9 And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud
received Him out of their sight.
10 And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white
clothing stood beside them.
11 They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has
been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him
go into heaven.”

It appears from this extract that there is one departure and then one future arrival by Jesus.
The angels do state 'will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go'.
The return of Jesus will be visible and a one time event, not multiple returns.
'Fascinating' I must say that you have the multiple returns of Jesus about which the
scripture is silent.

They are referring to Christ's second coming.

Another question for you. Is the rapture in Revelation, if so where?
 
They are referring to Christ's second coming.

Another question for you. Is the rapture in Revelation, if so where?

Some say Revelations 11:12; others say Revelations 14:14-16; and 20:4….
But even if this was not found in this book does that mean to you it does not occur? Harpazo means to catch away, to take out, to seize by force, etc., Matthew 24:31 speaks of gathering together unto Him (episynagō = to gather in one place)
 
Some say Revelations 11:12; others say Revelations 14:14-16; and 20:4….
But even if this was not found in this book does that mean to you it does not occur? Harpazo means to catch away, to take out, to seize by force, etc., Matthew 24:31 speaks of gathering together unto Him (episynagō = to gather in one place)

I don't see the rapture in Revelation. I do see the rapture/resurrection in 1 Corin 15:52 and 1 Thess 4:16-17.
 
They are referring to Christ's second coming.

Another question for you. Is the rapture in Revelation, if so where?

The rapture will of course occur on the great 'day of the Lord!'.

1 Thessalonians 4
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with
the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be
caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with
the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

As the verse above states 'the trumpet of God' determines the timing, hence the reference in the book
of Revelations to the rapture is as follows.

Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this
world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
 
There are a number of indisputable facts that God has made very clear in His word regarding the second coming of Jesus.
  1. The purpose: to take His children home.
    John 14:2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
  2. The harvest is a metaphor for the end of the world, and Christ's coming. This can be seen throughout the scriptures, both old and new testaments. We are all familiar with the references in scripture to the 'latter rain' etc. All harvest oriented. There is a parable of this genre in Matthew 13. Dealing precisely with this subject. Jesus clearly informs us the order of events at the harvest.
Matt. 13:24 ¶ Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Now the question must be asked: what took place first? Jesus commands the angels in verse 30 to do what? ....gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them....now look at verse 40,( remembering my friends the protestant hermeneutic, the bible interprets itself) and we read:
as therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so shall it be in the end of this world.
The above verse renders completely redundant the belief that Christians are taken away before the wicked. (And also the false and heaven insulting doctrine of eternal damnation). Oh, and also utterly betrays the false and misleading books, articles, films, that have the vast majority of modern Christianity held captive to gross error and darkness that those who are left behind are the wicked. NOT SO! It is the redeemed that are left behind after the wicked are all destroyed. Which leads to another question. If the wicked are all destroyed, and the righteous are all in heaven, who on earth is there to populate this desolated [planet during the millenium???

I could answer that, but it is another subject vast in its ramifications for the modern church. Perhaps another thread.

Another point to consider: where is Jesus now? Is He not in the heavenly sanctuary serving as our Mediator, and as Intercessor. As Mediator He is still available for all those who desire repentance and eternal life. So long as Jesus remains in His role as High Priest, redemption and atonement is possible. But the time is coming when Jesus leaves the temple, and returns to earth. No longer Priest, He comes as King. The 7 last plagues, described in Rev 16,17, and 18, incorporating the judgement of those who receive the mark, and the judgement of the false prophet, the dragon, and the *****, are directed from the temple. The angels come out from that temple, having received their instructions from Jesus. It is not until the 6th plague that we read in Revelation 16:15, Behold I come as a thief....The 7th plague utterly destroys all that remains, the only survivors being the redeemed, just as Israel survived the plagues of Egypt. It is after Jesus leaves the temple, that it is declared;
Revelation 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
The decisions as to who is saved, and who is lost, have been made prior to the second coming. The rewards spoken of here are for every man, both good and evil, according to their works.

By the way. Regarding the coming as a thief. Paul and Peter both clarify this when they tell us that it isn't so much the Lord Himself that comes as a thief, but the actual day of His coming. 1 Thess. 5:2; 2 Peter 3:10 Remember in Noah's day the people were carrying on their usual business, having no cares, nor any mind to the coming crisis. Same with those in Sodom and Gomorrah. When judgement came, it came as a surprise, despite the many warnings from both Noah, and Lot. It is in the sense of timing that the surprise is affected. Matt. 24:43,44. The day of the Lord comes unexpectantly, but only to the wicked. Noah knew the flood was coming. Lot knew that destruction was imminent. Therefore the faithful servant knows! Maybe not the hour, but he knows it is close. (Matt. 24:45-51)

But ye brethren, are not in darkness that that day should overtake you as a thief!!!! 1 Thess. 5:4.


Heed the signs, and listen to the warnings. The second coming ​has not yet happened. But it is close.
 
I'm sorry but I don't see in any of your verses a rapture happening.

The idea that we are not in the Lord's kingdom and that Christ is not reigning doesn't make much sense when in the first chapter of Revelation it talks of Christ kingdom in existence. Rev 1:9. As well as many other verse in the New Testament. Plus the fact that John the Baptist and Jesus both preached that the king of heaven was "at hand". Which means it was so to come very soon, sooner than 2000 plus years. Sooner than 500 years. Sooner than 5 years. According to Christ it came by the end of his ministry. Matt 28:18. And if he has power then he is reigning, if he is reigning he is king.
 
DHC’s point was the relationship between the Trumpets and the Coming (as indicated first in Matthew 24)….that it is at the sound of the last Trump that the dead rise and we who are alive at the time together will be gathered unto Him…caught up to meet Him in the air…

The phrase “at hand” to a Hebrew thinker and hearer comes from the Hebrew word “qarab” and it means to come near, approach, enter into, or draw near…thus it speaks of something readily available immediately but says nothing about time (in the sense that it is about to occur). That is a misunderstanding commonly assumed by the more modern western thinker which is simply NOT in the text. The addition of the characters Qof Vau making the Hebrew “qarowb” makes the term/phrase mean “near” but again that does not automatically indicate a time but more so a location or place of one thing into relation to another.

The New Testament Greek “eggizo” makes the same point. It means to be brought close to, to approach, or to join and says absolutely nothing about time…it speaks of the availability and relation of one to another…

Therefore by proper exegesis one should not assume this meant it was about to happen (as in an event of some sort) but that it was there to be a part of and that it was readily available for any who will come and be part of it (thus John’s baptism of water unto repentance and Jesus baptism by the Spirit unto the new birth are both made meaningful as this does not speak of an eschatological calendar in any way).

Now as for the Kingdom…yes Jesus is now King having overcome Satan, but this is as a man. as God (YHVH) He actually always was the true King. But we know that Satan is as yet still the Ruler (god) of this world blinding the minds of those who will not receive the gospel. This we know.

How this is explained in the scriptures is the two senses in which the matter is discussed…take these two for example….the Kingdom of God is within you (present completed action – Hebrew language speaks in terms of completed and incomplete actions – so would those who wrote have thought)…and now He commands us pray…Thy Kingdom come (incomplete action as in it has not yet come and is as yet future)…but how can both be true one may ask…but they can.

In the temporal realm the Kingdom has not yet come because most people on the broadway are not under the Lordship (Kingship) of Christ and still follow and obey another king….in the eternal, it is already a done deed because God cannot deny Himself…He is King whether or not we bow to Him here…so there are two Kingdoms and we are in His in the eternal realm (aleady seated with Him in heavenly places)because our spirit man is already IN HIM, but His “Kingdom come” has not yet arrived until He arrives (appentensis in “meet Him in the air” makes this apparent as with the verb appentensis in the Greek, the one who is coming comes all the way to their destination not half way and then returns and not arrives but only in spirit) and when He does we shall be like Him and with Him and He shall then rule and reign all nations (not just the minority of individuals)

In His love
Paul
 
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I'm getting sea sick again.

How in the world does anyone who reads English and doesn't know Greek and Hebrew ever come to an understanding of scripture? And don't say the Holy Spirit, cause that's a given here. But the way you, Bro Paul and DHC, explain away common sense reading. If someone doesn't have a PhD in Greek and Hebrew then you can't possible know what the Bible means. We're all a bunch of egits.
 
No Bambi, the phrase "at hand" also carries these meanings in English (near to, close by, available to). For example I could say "The market is close at hand", does this mean it will suddenly or soon appear? Or that we are near to it? Or perhaps it is closer to us than one may have thought. The Kingdom of God was always at hand...even before Christ died, as John was preaching. One only needs to yield their self lordship (Genesis 3:5) to Him, submitting to God (which is through faith), made effectual by the grace of redemption (a releasing by payment of a ransom). Which WE all have done, which is the most important...the Kingdom is "now" for you and I and DHC, but is not until then for the multitudes blinded by the gods of this world, they are still in the kingdom of darkness.

Often what we have been taught influences the way we understand so greatly we cannot see the other possibilities (this is the stuff denominations are made of)...When He comes again to judge the quick and the dead, the whole world, every eye shall see Him....

Psalm 86:9 All nations which you have made shall come and worship before you, O Lord; and shall glorify your name.

Zephaniah 9:11 The LORD will be terrible unto them: for he will famish all the gods of the earth; and men shall worship him, every one from his place, even all the isles of the heathen.

Revelations 15:4 Who shall not fear you, O Lord, and glorify your name? for you only are holy: for all nations shall come and worship before you; for your judgments are made manifest.

This time has not come yet...but one day...Hallelujah...maranatha Lord, come quickly!





 
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merriam-webster dictionary

near : at, within, or to a short distance or time <sunset was drawing near>


at hand: near in time or place : within reach <use whatever ingredients are at hand>
 
I'm sorry but I don't see in any of your verses a rapture happening.

The idea that we are not in the Lord's kingdom and that Christ is not reigning doesn't make much sense when in the first chapter of Revelation it talks of Christ kingdom in existence. Rev 1:9. As well as many other verse in the New Testament. Plus the fact that John the Baptist and Jesus both preached that the king of heaven was "at hand". Which means it was so to come very soon, sooner than 2000 plus years. Sooner than 500 years. Sooner than 5 years. According to Christ it came by the end of his ministry. Matt 28:18. And if he has power then he is reigning, if he is reigning he is king.
Jesus said that His kingdom is not of this world...Satan is still ruler here; just look at the latest headlines in your local paper; look at the behaviour of your neighbors; look at the corruption in governments; look at the confusion (Babylon) in the churches....Jesus reigns in individual lives, yes, those who have the sure hope of His soon coming, but the world is not under His reign...sovereignty maybe, but willing obedient service? Never.

BTW you wont find the rapture in those posts...that's my point. There is no such event except for the change at the second coming.
 
true...His kingdom is not of this world...it is of God! It was the plan since before the beginning of the world
 
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