Revelation 7 and 14, On the 144,000

[tulsa 2011]

Revelation 7 and 14, On the 144,000

John Gill (1697-1771) On Revelation 7: 4:

"Dr. Goodwin thinks these sealed ones design the believers of the Greek and Armenian churches, and his reasons are not despicable; but this is to limit and restrain them to a particular part of the church of Christ; whereas they take in all the saints within this long tract of time, even all that are the true Israel of God, who are Jews inwardly, of what nation, kindred, tongue, and people soever; and is a certain and determinate number for an uncertain and indeterminate one; and only intends a large number of persons known to God and Christ."

Gill is following the amillennial position on Revelation 7: 4, which
was expressed by Augustine, became part of Catholic doctrine, and was used by the Calvinists and Lutherans
following the Reformation. Amillennialism says the 144,000 are an
allegory of the saints of all ages. But Gill is right in saying the
144,000 are those who are Jews inwardly, following Romans 2: 28-29,
"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that
circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which
is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit,
and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

John Gill was a Baptist Calvinist, and his view of the 144,000 reflects the Reformation bent for the broad, sweeping allegorical interpretations of end time Bible prophecy started by Origen (184–253 A.D.). Yet John Gill is right in using the Reformation idea of interpreting difficult scripture by other more easily understood scripture. When Gill talks about "even all that are the true Israel of God, who are Jews
inwardly," he is using Romans 2: 28-29 to interpret the identity of the 144,000. In doing so, Gill is somewhat closer to the truth than is the present day dispensationalist church with its insistence on a consistent literal interpretation of scriptures that, by New Testament doctrine, cannot be literally interpreted.

The 144,000 of Revelation 7 and 14 are from Israel of the New Covenant. They are "Jews" inwardly, of the Spirit, not "Jews" outwardly,defined by their DNA, their flesh. The identity of the 144,000 as those of born again Israel is based upon Romans 2: 17, 28-29 and Romans 9: 6-8.

But the tradition of men called dispensationalism, Christian Zionism, separation theology or postponement theology - from their literal "hermeneutic-" - insists that all the 144,000 are Jewish males, which could be viewed as being racist and sexist. The Two Witnesses of Revelation 11: 7 are "killed" by the beast out of the bottomless pit but then in Revelation 11; 11 the Spirit of God enters into them. The Two Witnesses is a metaphor. God often uses two parts. For example, "Male and female created he them" in Genesis 5: 2. There are two helical strands of our DNA, not one or three. The Two Witnesses of Revelation 11 could be two because the people represented by the metaphoric Two Witnesses are made up of males and females - in the flesh, though gender is only one way the Two Witnesses are two and not one or more than two.. At or very near the end of the age those in Revelation 11 who were "killed" by the beast out of the bottomless pit but who are then given the Spirit of life may very well join the 144,000. So, the dispensationalist claim from their literal interpretation of the metaphor of not being defiled with women in Revelation 14: 4 may contradict the meaning of these metaphors of Revelation 11 and Revelation 14: 4.

In Romans 2: 17 Paul talks about Jews, there addressing a Jew, and in verses 28-29 he says that a Jew is no longer defined in a physical way, by that which is outward. But now a Jew is anyone who is an inward Jew, in the spirit and not in the letter. But Jew as a term applies to Israel. Paul is talking about Israel here, not about just those who were of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin. In Romans 9:6-8 Paul does use the word Israel, saying that they are not all Israel which are of Israel, and that they which are the children of the flesh - Israel after the flesh (I Corinthians 10: 18 - these are not the children of God. So, Paul is saying the same thing in Romans 2:28-29 that he says in Romans 9: 6-8, that Israel has been changed in Christ. This change fulfills Jeremiah 18: 6, "O house of Israel,cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the Lord."

So, John Gill was closer to the truth about the identity of the 144,000 than are the followers of John Darby, C.I. Scofield, Lewis S. Chafer and others. The number 144,000 is not literal, and we do not know how many will belong to the 144,000. But the 144,000 is not all saved people of all ages, that is, all the elect of God of all time.

There are verses in Revelation 7: 1-3 which show that the 144,000 come into being in the time times. "And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads." The four angels are holding back the four winds, and another angel told them not to allow the four winds to hurt the earth until the servants of our God are sealed, meaning the 144,000. The four winds is metaphoric for something that is harmful, but the holding of it back and then releasing it after the 144,000 are sealed is not necessarily metaphoric. That the four winds are metaphoric but the action of the angels is not fits the pattern of the language of metaphor in scripture. A totally literal view of Revelation 7: 1-3 saying that four angels are holding back the east, west, north and south winds of our earth until God seals the 144,000 male Jews in their foreheads would be a fable.

The 144,000 - who are more than that number - come into existence toward the end of the age. And because end time Bible prophecy says that a falling away is to happen, that many false prophets will arise and deceive many, and will bring in damnable heresies we can see that when the 144,000 are called into service by the Lord, that they will be a remnant. They can be called the remnant of Israel, but this does not mean that they are all of Old Covenant Israel, or all are Jews. They are a remnant born again in Christ, and as Revelation 12: 17 says they have the testimony of Jesus Christ. As a remnant they are the elect of that time because after the falling away and the rise of the huge number of false prophets, the majority (Matthew 7: 13) are not the elect.

"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not." II Peter 2: 1-3

They, the many false prophets of Matthew 24: 11, will make merchandise of you, meaning they will reduce you to a spiritual state like merchandise. Then, in the Book of Revelation there are other texts in metaphoric language about the work of the false prophets. Revelation 12: 15-16 is one of these which is easier to understand, saying that the serpent will cast out of his mouth a flood. The serpent who casts out the flood from his mouth is called the dragon in verse 16. The flood is the flood of false doctrines out of the mouths of the many false prophets, inspired by the dragon.

But what are the heresies of II Peter 2: 1 that are damnable? Strong's Exhaustive Concordance says that hairesis, number 139, means "a choice, disunion, heresy." Number 138, haireomai is said to mean "to take for oneself, i.e., to prefer, choose.

The Greek word apostasia is used in II Thessalonians 2: 3, which Strong's - number 646 - says means "defection from the truth."

Jude 24 says "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy," Falling is from aptaistos, Strong's number 679, from number 4417, ptaio, to err, sin, fail, fall, stumble.

Then II Corinthians 11: 3-4 says "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. "

Galatians 1: 6-9 says "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7. Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."

So, heresies, which are said in II Peter 2: 1 to be damnable, can be defined as holding doctrines which are a defection from the truth. A heresy is a doctrine which is clearly different from and contradicts the truth of scripture. Another Gospel would be a set of doctrines that are clearly different from and contradict scripture. Though another Gospel, or set of doctrines, are attributed to the real Jesus Christ by the false prophets promoting this other Gospel, since Christ himself is the truth (John 14: 6), along with the way and the life, then those who teach another Gospel are also teaching another Jesus.

A fundamental doctrine from Christ, who is truth, is in John 10: 16, "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."

Romans 12: 5 says "So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another." In Romans 11: 17-20 those of Old Covenant Israel who rejected Christ, were in unbelief, were broken off from that changed Israel which Christ required to be born again (John 3: 1-7). And in Romans 11: 5 a remnant of Old Covenant Israel became that Israel born again in Christ, along with the former Gentiles of Romans 11: 17 who were grafted into Israel reborn in Christ, making only one Body of Christ. To teach that God now has two groups of people, Old Covenant Israel and the church, from circe, chirche, or kirchee, would be teaching another Gospel and another Jesus. It would be one of the heresies, as a clear departure from the truth of scripture which the false prophets teach to deceive many as Matthew 24: 11 says.

Remember that Revelation 14: 5 tells us that the 144,000 have no guile, Guile is Strong's number 1388, dolos, a trick, bait, deceit, guile, subtilty. Guile is an old English word. The Dictionary definition of guile is "the use of clever and usually dishonest methods to achieve something." It is deception. Members of the 144,000 are distinguished by not being deceptive. Zephaniah 3: 13 says "The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth..." This does not mean that the 144,000 are all from Old Covenant Israel. The remnant of Israel is Israel reborn in Jesus Christ after the Cross and after the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2.

The elect of God not having guile, that is, not being deceptive, is very important in distinguishing between the elect and the followers of the false prophets, who have been deceived and are deceiving.

Some people are saying that the Lord is in the process of himself appearing in the elect, that is, he is putting more of his mind in them (Philippians 2: 5) and is cleaning them up, so that having been in false doctrines and in sin, they are becoming spotless, without guile (deception) and pure, which is what Revelation 14: 4 is about. "These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God. " Revelation 14: 4-5."

 

[NoHype]

Hi tulsa,

I'm not one to too quickly dismiss the idea that the 144,000 are literal Israelites of birth. I'm not a Dispensationalist, nor Calvinist, nor whatever. The 144,000 being a certain group to be chosen in the last days is strongly suggested by the fact of Rev.7 marking their sealing before the four winds blow upon the earth. Our Lord Jesus associated the "four winds" in Matt.24 and Mark 13 with the time of gathering of His elect at His second coming (as some Old Testament prophecy appears to also). So I don't think it far-fetched to think Rev.7 is linked to the very last days just prior to our Lord's coming. Rev.9 also has a link to this matter, because of God's sealing having mention there also on the 5th Seal.

What I think is difficult for many is understanding the Rev.7:9 forward timing. It is revealing saved Gentile believers which would more apply to the non-physical spiritual Israel concept of Rom.9. Certain symbols given with that latter section of Rev.7 is pointing to after Christ's coming and during His future reign. For this reason I am inclined to treat the 144,000 of the 12 tribes as given in Rev.7 as literal. Still another reason is how the tribes of Dan and Ephraim are left out of that list, but put back in at the end of Ezekiel 48.

Thus, I don't believe this determination of the 144,000 for the last days can be discovered without a consideration of the Old Testament prophecies along with it.

 

[Davy]

Hi NoHype, I have had quite a few debates with people on just what this 144,000 is referring to. Some say it is a symbolic number referring to all those who are chosen and go to heaven. However, I look at its meaning by taking a careful look at the bigger picture the book of revelation paints.

Some believe Jesus will come back to earth, to kill all the wicked and take all the righteous people to heaven, then destroy the earth. However, the Bible clearly shows the earth will remain forever. (Psalms 78:69; 96:10; 104:5) The book of revelation also shows that Jesus will come back to the earth and set up a kingdom that will rule over the earth. Revelation 5:10, (NASB) states: "You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."

This is the crux of the matter: If all the wicked who refuse to acknowledge Jesus as their king and ruler, are righteously killed off, who does this kingdom rule over if everyone else are supposed to go to heaven? Furthermore, the book of Revelation clearly shows, Jesus will rule over this earth for 1000 years and with those who are resurrected with him, they will act as kings and judges of those left over on the earth. Revelation 20:4, (NASB) says: "And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." Then after 1000, years Satan will be let loose to test the righteous mankind that then live on planet earth. Revelation 20:7, 8: (NASB) says: "When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth." How could this happen if all the wicked are destroyed and everyone else who is saved goes to heaven?

Revelation 7:3-8 talk about the 144,000 who are sealed, and these are the ones who Jesus chooses to go to heaven and join him in ruling over all these people left over on the earth. Then Revelation 7:9, 10, (NASB) states: "After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, 'Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.'" This second group of people are also righteous as they proclaim their salvation though God and to the lamb. This is a great multitude which no one can count, but the other class of people who go to heaven are mentioned as being 144,000 who are sealed in number, so this must be literal. One saved class goes to heaven and the other saved class stays on earth!

So, those who survive Armageddon are clearly righteous people, and live on the earth under Christ's rulership, but these ones are not mentioned as dying off during that time. They are referred to as only being tested at the end of the 1000 years when Satan is let loose. This to me shows they will keep on living all the time through Christ's rule without experiencing death. This reminds me of the question. If Adam and Eve had not sinned would they still be alive today? Yes they would, because that was God's purpose for mankind in the beginning, to live on the earth and care for it. When Jesus starts to rule, the ransom sacrifice will cover the sin's of this group who remain on the earth and will no longer die of sin and old age. Like Adam they will keep on living, but also like Adam they will face a test at the end of the 1000 years to see if they will still remain faithful.

 

[B-A-C]

Furthermore, the book of Revelation clearly shows, Jesus will rule over this earth for 1000 years and with those who are resurrected with him, they will act as kings and judges of those left over on the earth. Revelation 20:4, (NASB) says: "And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

That's not exactly what it says.

( NASB )
Rev 20:4; Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Rev 20:5; The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

Only those who refused to worship the beast and take his mark will rule with Christ during the millennial reign of Christ. The next verse says "The rest of dead" don't come to life until this time is over.
If you believe in a pre-trib rapture, it's possible those people could reign with Christ during this time, otherwise everyone else waits until the millennial (Earthly) reign is over.

So, those who survive Armageddon are clearly righteous people, and live on the earth under Christ's rulership, but these ones are not mentioned as dying off during that time. They are referred to as only being tested at the end of the 1000 years when Satan is let loose. This to me shows they will keep on living all the time through Christ's rule without experiencing death.

Hmmm... or it could be people had children and keep on re-producing during this time. If only the righteous survive after the millennial reign, where do these people come from?

Rev 20:7; When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,
Rev 20:8; and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.

Why would the righteous be deceived by satan and go fight for him?

 

[NoHype]

Hi NoHype, I have had quite a few debates with people on just what this 144,000 is referring to. Some say it is a symbolic number referring to all those who are chosen and go to heaven. However, I look at its meaning by taking a careful look at the bigger picture the book of revelation paints.

Some believe Jesus will come back to earth, to kill all the wicked and take all the righteous people to heaven, then destroy the earth. However, the Bible clearly shows the earth will remain forever. (Psalms 78:69; 96:10; 104:5) The book of revelation also shows that Jesus will come back to the earth and set up a kingdom that will rule over the earth. Revelation 5:10, (NASB) states: "You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."

Hi Davy,

Yes, I believe our Lord Jesus will return to this earth literally, how He ascended into Heaven per Acts 1 and Zech.14. And per the end of Zech.14 the Rev.20 "thousand years" reign by Christ and His elect over the nations on earth is directly supported. Rev.11 is clear also that all the kingdoms of this world become those of The Father and His Christ, which is pointing to His return, gathering of His Church, and their joint reign over those kingdoms on earth. As for what will happen with the wicked, not all of them are destroyed on the Day of The LORD, which the evidence is in Zech.14 and Rev.20 of those nations still existing throughout Christ's Millennial reign with His elect. So I think you and I are in agreement on that.

Revelation 7:3-8 talk about the 144,000 who are sealed, and these are the ones who Jesus chooses to go to heaven and join him in ruling over all these people left over on the earth. Then Revelation 7:9, 10, (NASB) states: "After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, 'Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.'" This second group of people are also righteous as they proclaim their salvation though God and to the lamb. This is a great multitude which no one can count, but the other class of people who go to heaven are mentioned as being 144,000 who are sealed in number, so this must be literal. One saved class goes to heaven and the other saved class stays on earth!

Now that I do not agree with. Didn't you just mention Revelation as stating Christ will return to this earth? I know I did, per Acts 1 and Zechariah 14. His whole Church, all His saints, will be in the same place.

Why must some try to keep those 144,000 of the seed of Israel separate from the Gentile believers in His Church? God's Word is not really doing that, not really even in Rev.7. God is actually showing them (and us Gentiles) how He is going to keep His Promises to the seed of Israel regarding the nation of Israel never being destroyed. But just because of that Promise it doesn't mean part of His Church will reign on earth while the rest reign in Heaven.

An understanding I think you might be missing about Christ's future Millennial reign is He said at John 5:28-29 for the day of His return both the just and the unjust are resurrected, with the just going to the resurrection of Life while the unjust go to the resurrection of damnation. That means all... both the just and unjust will be in the "spiritual body" resurrection Apostle Paul taught in 1 Cor.15., and that on the day of Christ's return.

Want to know where Apostle Paul was pulling from with the death swallowed up in victory idea of 1 Cor.15? It is from Isaiah...

Isa 25:5-9
5 Thou shalt bring down the noise of strangers, as the heat in a dry place; even the heat with the shadow of a cloud: the branch of the terrible ones shall be brought low.
6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.
7 And He will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
9 And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.
(KJV)

What do you think that "face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations", and "He will swallow up death in victory" is about?

That is about the end of this present world, and the things of this present world, to include these flesh type bodies we have today on earth. It is our present state in the flesh on earth that serves as a boundary with hiding the realm of the Heavenly from our literal sight. This is why in Old Testament times some of God's prophets (like Isaiah) thought they had died, because they saw God upon His Throne in the Heavenly.

When our Lord Jesus returns, that Heavenly realm is going to be revealed to all peoples and all nations, including to the unjust here on earth, for all still alive on earth at Christ's coming will experience the change at a twinkling of an eye on that day. What is coming with the world to come will be a Heavenly age, but it will be revealed right here, upon this earth, and not away from the earth.

I know this is a difficult subject for many, mainly because of our fleshy thinking these flesh bodies create upon our spirit. But this is the redemption Apostle Paul spoke of in Romans 8, and it will even involve God's creation, as Paul says there the whole creation groans as our spirit does inside us, waiting for this redemption and time of the sons of God to fully manifest. Paul also revealed there how God has placed the creation even in a state of vanity and bondage, and it mourns for release.

What Glory then was Paul speaking of in Romans 8, just the glory we will experience with the change to a body that will never die, never get sick, not have pain, no hunger, no heat or cold, etc? Not just us, but the whole creation also will put on that coming Glory, which is what the new heavens and a new earth timing will be about.

At the end of Revelation we're shown the Holy City, the New Jerusalem, coming down out of Heaven from God to this earth. It will be a literal manifestation upon a literal earth. And also per Isaiah God says we will plant vineyards and build houses, i.e., live upon this earth, for the meek shall inherit the earth right? The Ezekiel 40 through 48 chapters have more on this in relation to that time in our Lord's Book of Revelation, and I suggest all brethren read and study about it, because it is very near to come.