Is Repentance Necessary For Salvation?

[Barny]

Do you feel it is self-righteous to work the works that God gives us to do?

Jesus was asked what works we should do. He answered that we should believe on him, John 6:29.

But we often see on forums legalists who preach an ambiguous doctrine claiming that works of part the law (the 10 commandments) plus some extra commandments such as drunkenness, partying seditions, etc, must be attained to some minimum standard (some claim it must be perfect whilst others claim some lessor, ambiguous level of obedience is enough) as works that show that we have righteousness through God working through us.

This is at odds with scripture. The works described in John 6:29. is specific, we believe on Jesus.
But the works presented by legalists is ambiguous and all over the place depending on what church they follow.
And these legalists preach that one is not righteous unless they attain this minimum standard of behavior. This doctrine that the legalists follow seems very much like self-righteousness.

I understand that these legalists are mixing works of the law with grace.
We cannot mix works of the law with grace.
Rom 11:6
if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

In other words, we should not be lusting after Hagar (righteousness by works of the law). That is spiritual sexual immorality. Remember a little leaven (doctrine of righteousness by works of the law) leavens the whole lump. Anyone who entertains even a little of the concept that works of the law is required to show righteousness can end up being corrupted with such leaven/doctrine.

And if those works are not a prerequisite of salvation then how is it that a tree bearing no fruit gets cut down and cast into the fire?

That thief on the cross who called Jesus "Lord" had no works of the law. Yet he entered into paradise.
What fruit did that thief (and all believers) have?
He had Christ the firstfruits (1Cor 15:20.), and thus he was righteous (Rom 4:5.) , sanctified (Heb 10:10.), holy (Rom 11:16.), and perfected (Heb 10:14.).

The sin the world is convicted of is unbelief in Jesus, John 16:9.
Those who do not believe in Jesus (which includes legalists who lust after Hagar) do not have Christ the firstfruits and unless they repent they will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

 

[Jehonadab]

Here's just a summary, from what I understand of points of view given, of the various views presented here on TJ.

James1523 claims that without perfect obedience to one part of the law (the 10 commandments) then we cannot enter into eternal life. James1523 has also indicated that in addition to any transgressions of the 10 commandments, if we commit any drunkenness, seditions, wrath, partying, etc then this also will exclude us from eternal life. James1523 also claims there is no death bed salvation as such persons have no works of the law to show they ever had faith. At the time of our parting this life we must be found perfect in obedience to the law (plus a few extra issues such as drunkenness, etc) at that moment.

B-A-C differs in that he claims some ambiguous, minimum standard of behavior (which varies depending on the individual) is required to enter into eternal life, although he seems reluctant to give any specific details on this. Whilst B-A-C promotes only one part of the law (the 10 commandments), he does exclude the Sabbath from our list of behaviors (which also includes drunkenness, partying, seditions,etc) that determines whether we can enter into eternal life or not.

Jehonadab, you seem to claim that most Christians will be the "least" in heaven as we're often not perfect in behavior to be called "great" in God's kingdom. No doubt therefore you describe the thief on the cross as "least" due to the fact that he had no opportunity to ever become perfect (which is rather unfortunate for any Christians who live a short life and had no opportunity to become "great" in God's kingdom).

RJ, DHC, and myself, simply believe on Jesus as the gospel commands, and we understand that our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5. We understand that Christ's sacrifice sanctified us (Heb 10:10.) and made us holy (Rom 11:16.), and that in Christ we are complete (Col 2:10.). We believe that Christians have this all apart from our behavior. Although a Christian's behavior often does improve as they grow in Christ, it has no bearing on whether they are righteous or holy, etc.

Whilst we may all agree that one must believe on Jesus, the above examples show 4 different views on what this means.
I'd be interested to see how you reconcile these 4 differing views.

Some of the problem is that there is a difference in what we see as the kingdom, which is the focus of where we hope to go.

You call that kingdom heaven. I call that kingdom "of heaven".

You see this earth as a place that is soon to be obliterated by fire. I see that fire as the O.T. presents it; as the refiner's fire, the goal of which is not to destroy but to refine and in the process ladle away the slag.

I see that kingdom being spoken of as the stone cut out of the side of the Mountain of God Daniel 2:44-45 speaks concerning. You see it as God's Mountain, the top of which pictures the holy dwelling place of God.

I see that our destination is the kingdom by Christ of a thousand years, right here on this earth, where it was promised that the throne of David would never be without one of his seed to set upon. And at the end of the thousand years I see the following then taking place:

1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

 

[Barny]

Some of the problem is that there is a difference in what we see as the kingdom, which is the focus of where we hope to go.

You call that kingdom heaven. I call that kingdom "of heaven".

You see this earth as a place that is soon to be obliterated by fire. I see that fire as the O.T. presents it; as the refiner's fire, the goal of which is not to destroy but to refine and in the process ladle away the slag.

I see that kingdom being spoken of as the stone cut out of the side of the Mountain of God Daniel 2:44-45 speaks concerning. You see it as God's Mountain, the top of which pictures the holy dwelling place of God.

I see that our destination is the kingdom by Christ of a thousand years, right here on this earth, where it was promised that the throne of David would never be without one of his seed to set upon. And at the end of the thousand years I see the following then taking place:

1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

That may have to be raised in a separate topic of its own one day.

You said that is "some" of the problem regarding the differing views.

What do you see is the rest of the problem over these differing views?

 

[Jehonadab]

That may have to be raised in a separate topic of its own one day.

You said that is "some" of the problem regarding the differing views.

What do you see is the rest of the problem over these differing views?

We interpret scriptures differently from each other. Examples:

Luke 13:24 "Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able." Strive = G0075 --agonizomai -- to struggle, literally (to compete for a prize), figuratively (to contend with an adversary), or genitive case (to endeavor to accomplish something): KJV -- fight, labor fervently, strive.

Philippians 2:12 "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

Hebrews 5:9 "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him"

What is the word the KJV left out, here? 1 Peter 2:2 "As <g5613> newborn <g0738> babes <g1025>, desire <g1971> the <g3588> sincere <g0097> milk <g1051> of the <g9999> word <g3050>, that <g2443> ye may grow <g0837> thereby <g1722> <g0846></g0846>,"

The ASV did not leave it out: 1 Peter 2:2 "as newborn babes, long for the spiritual milk which is without guile, that ye may grow thereby unto salvation;"
The Douay-Rheims has it: 1 Peter 2:2 "As newborn babes, desire the rational milk without guile, that thereby you may grow unto salvation"
The BBE; DV; & WNT have it.

To my mind, you don't even seem to understand the following to be telling you what you must do: 1 Peter 2:21 "For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls."

And that is just quickly scratching the surface.

Therefore, I ask again:

Do you feel it is self-righteous to work the works that God gives us to do?

And do you think that we can work those works without we put forth effort from within?

And if those works are not a prerequisite of salvation then how is it that a tree bearing no fruit gets cut down and cast into the fire?


</g1722></g0837></g2443></g3050></g9999></g1051></g0097></g3588></g1971></g1025></g0738></g5613>

 

[B-A-C]

That thief on the cross who called Jesus "Lord" had no works of the law. Yet he entered into paradise.

I think it's safe to say, neither did he have much opportunity to sin after he asked Jesus to remember him.

He confessed that he had done some wrongful things, and he recognized that Jesus hadn't done anything wrong.
Two fruits he did have,was that he did not deny Jesus before men, and he confessed that he had sinned.

Luke 23:40; But the other answered, and rebuking him said, "Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation?
Luke 23:41; "And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong."

some claim it must be perfect whilst others claim some lessor, ambiguous level of obedience is enough

Barny, do you watch sports at all? If so, I would ask... what level of perfection is required for an athlete to be good? Does a basketball player have to make all of his shots?
Does a baseball player have to hit a home-run at every at bat? Does a football player have to make a touchdown every single play?
Certainly they all have talent (as do we) but the thing they require is the heart to do the best they can. The desire to make all the shots.
Our desire should be NOT to sin. We may not make all of our shots, but that should be our desire. As soon as that stops being our desire, we are no longer led by the Spirit.

Now as far as God the father is concerned, we do have to make all of our shots, and we do have to be perfect. This is where Jesus and Grace comes in, he covers our weaknesses and mistakes.
However if we go on sinning WILLFULLY.. well that's another story.

 

[Jehonadab]

Jesus was asked what works we should do. He answered that we should believe on him, John 6:29.

But we often see on forums legalists who preach an ambiguous doctrine claiming that works of part the law (the 10 commandments) plus some extra commandments such as drunkenness, partying seditions, etc, must be attained to some minimum standard (some claim it must be perfect whilst others claim some lessor, ambiguous level of obedience is enough) as works that show that we have righteousness through God working through us.

This is at odds with scripture. The works described in John 6:29. is specific, we believe on Jesus.
But the works presented by legalists is ambiguous and all over the place depending on what church they follow.
And these legalists preach that one is not righteous unless they attain this minimum standard of behavior. This doctrine that the legalists follow seems very much like self-righteousness.

I understand that these legalists are mixing works of the law with grace.
We cannot mix works of the law with grace.
Rom 11:6
if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

In other words, we should not be lusting after Hagar (righteousness by works of the law). That is spiritual sexual immorality. Remember a little leaven (doctrine of righteousness by works of the law) leavens the whole lump. Anyone who entertains even a little of the concept that works of the law is required to show righteousness can end up being corrupted with such leaven/doctrine.

You make some valid points but you go to the other extreme in your interpretation. God's requiring works of you before he is willing to save you is his right. The first work he required of you was your expression of faith. Galatians 5:6 "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love." Faith does works and faith does those works motivated by love of God and neighbor.

We cannot earn salvation even by doing the works God requires us to do. We were dead in sin and worthy of nothing but death. If not for his grace we would not have even the chance to do the works of God that he requires of us. Are we not appreciative of that? It remains a free gift matter not what he requires of us.

Romans 12:1-2 "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."

That thief on the cross who called Jesus "Lord" had no works of the law. Yet he entered into paradise.
What fruit did that thief (and all believers) have?
He had Christ the firstfruits (1Cor 15:20.), and thus he was righteous (Rom 4:5.) , sanctified (Heb 10:10.), holy (Rom 11:16.), and perfected (Heb 10:14.).

The sin the world is convicted of is unbelief in Jesus, John 16:9.
Those who do not believe in Jesus (which includes legalists who lust after Hagar) do not have Christ the firstfruits and unless they repent they will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

That criminal is to be resurrected to the regeneration period of the earth where there will yet be both just and unjust until the final test at the end of the thousand years. That criminal will be one of the unjust and will undergo judgment during the thousand years. God's grace recognized his expression of faith and allowed that opportunity to him. His eternal salvation is not yet secured. The thousand years is God's judgment day for that purpose.

The earth will be restored as a global paradise for that thousand years and during that time those that are yet unrighteous can prove to lose out by the choice of their own hearts, just as Adam lost out. They will be the least ones Jesus speaks of: Matthew 5:19 "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Acts 24:15-16 "And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offence toward God, and toward men."

Matthew 5:19 "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

God is not about destroying anyone he can save and so he resurrects the unjust (not the wicked) to save all that might allow it.

But, I know many people do not understand what judgment day is and so have a hard time seeing this. Matthew 10:15 "Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city."

Jesus did not lie when he said that at Matthew 10:14-15. There is more to that day than just destroying or tormenting sinners. Our God of love is about trying to save any who will let him.

Only the just will be ruling with Christ in that regeneration period (Matthew 19:28) and Paul as also all the Apostles sought carefully to be fit for that appointment with Christ.

Matthew 19:28 "And Jesus said unto them , Verily I say unto you , That ye which have followed me , in the regeneration when the Son of Man shall sit in the throne of his glory , ye also upon twelve thrones , judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (KJV)

The great ones in the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 5:19) are these king/priests in association with Christ and they are the fountains of the water of life which Revelation 7:17 refers to.

I should add that God is not about destroying anyone he can possibly save, but he is holy and is neither about letting sinners have everlasting life so that they can continue to excuse themselves to sin.

 

[james1523]

Gen 6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
James, I can only guess why you mis-stated the this scripture (in order to support you theology). Genesis 6:9, The scripture says Noah was blameless in his generation...not perfect as you have quoted.....shameful!

I did not mis-state anything, I quoted directly from the King James version. The words blameless and perfect are synonyms, they mean the same thing.

 

[james1523]

Unfortunately in today's Christianity the term "faith alone" has been taken out of context, so that some Christians accuse and condemn others for being legalistic simply for wanting to obey God and be water baptized because that's what God told us to do. Properly understood, the term "faith alone" means that your own self-efforts and works cannot save you. Martin Luther said this in response to a religious system whereby people could pay money to enter heaven, or merely go through the motions of being baptized, going to church, taking communion, and think they had salvation, without having faith in Christ.

But improperly understood, "faith alone" means you just have to believe in Christ and you don't have to do anything at all - only faith matters. I can try to show from Scripture that we are not saved by grace or faith alone according to this improper understanding.

The Scripture gives at least 7 things which are said to save us.
The blood of Jesus (1 Peter 1:18-10).
Repentance (2 Cor 7:10)
Works (James 2:24).
Faith (Rom 5:1)
Mercy (Titus 3:5)
Grace (Titus 3:7)
Baptism (1 Peter 3:21).

The Bible says each one of these items plays a part in our salvation.

Clearly, it is wrong to say that any one of these things saves us alone.

Peter the apostle did not believe in salvation by grace or faith alone.
In Acts 2 Peter gave a Sermon, many were convicted and wanted to be saved. They answered "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" (Acts 2:37).

Peter, if he believed in salvation by faith alone could have said "there is nothing you can do, you are saved by grace alone through faith alone".

Instead, Peter said a number of things they had to do:

38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.

This proves that Peter did not believe in the "alone" things, Peter believed they had to do something to be saved.

"Faith alone" implies that human beings have no part in their salvation. This comes from the idea that human beings are merely pre-programmed robots with a destiny, rather than created beings in God's image with free-will.
This is despite the fact that Scripture says it is our faith that God takes into account. It is our faith, not someone else's. No one can believe for anyone else, not even God.
We are the ones who must repent and respond to the gospel.
We are the ones who take the gospel to the whole Earth.
We are the ones who must open our ears and our hearts to the gospel.
Take human effort out of the picture and there will be no salvation at all.
Doctrines of man have inserted the word "alone" into there, which is not found in the Scriptures. It comes from a partially paraphrased and greatly misunderstood statement from Martin Luther.

The key to understanding Christianity, is to realize that just as Jesus Christ was and is both God and man, all things, including salvation, is about God working with and in and through man. There is no "God only" and there is no "man only" to it. Even think about how Jesus was crucified - He didn't haul himself up on that cross when he decided to die. No, He went before the human rulers, both Jew and Gentile, He made sure that they were the ones to kill Him, by not answering a word to their accusations, and yet Jesus gave up His own spirit willingly. Both God and man worked together to accomplish our salvation. Yet all glory and worship must go to God because He is God, but it is wrong to belittle and deny the part that we and others have in our salvation.

There is nothing to boast about in obeying God out of faith and love for Him. When we properly understand how God works in and with us for our salvation, we gain a greater sense of appreciation for who He is, and everything He has done. We are even humbled all the more that God would use imperfect vessels that we are, to accomplish His purpose.

 

[Jehonadab]

Matthew 19:16-19 "And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."

Matthew 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Romans 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Romans 8:4,13 "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.....................13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live."

 

[Barny]

We interpret scriptures differently from each other. Examples:

Luke 13:24 "Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able." Strive = G0075 --agonizomai -- to struggle, literally (to compete for a prize), figuratively (to contend with an adversary), or genitive case (to endeavor to accomplish something): KJV -- fight, labor fervently, strive.

You're correct that we do understand scriptures differently.

Regarding Luke 13 above, the striving/competing for a prize that you describe, is also seen in Heb 12:1., and 1Cor 9:24., which describes the race we run, competing to win. This refers to our believing on Jesus until the end. Remember its the sin of unbelief in Jesus that the world is convicted of, John 16:9.

Consider Paul for example. He ran the race. He fought the good fight. He strived.
1Tim 6:12-14
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession (confessing Jesus with your mouth, Rom 10:9.) in the presence of many witnesses. I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate, that you keep this commandment (to believe on Jesus)without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ’s appearing,

How did Paul go with his striving?
2Tim 4:6-8
For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.

This is all speaking of the same works the thief on the cross did. Believing on Jesus.
Paul did not succumb to the sin of unbelief in Jesus.
Heb 12:1,2
Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Again, remember its the sin of unbelief in Jesus that the world is convicted of, John 16:9.
This sin of unbelief that can so "easily ensnare us", is confirmed in Heb 12:15,16
looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled; lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright. For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears.

And how does one fall from grace?
You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
Paul ran the race. He fought the good fight. He did not succumb to the sin of unbelief (attempting to be justified by the law) that so easily ensnares us. He did not fornicate with Hagar. He did not follow a lukewarm mix of works of the law with grace.

Philippians 2:12 "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

Hebrews 5:9 "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him"

Christians obey the commandment to believe on Jesus. This is God's will for us, John 6:40.
Hence we do not lust after Hagar (righteousness by works of the law). <g5613 style="font-size: 14px;">

To my mind, you don't even seem to understand the following to be telling you what you must do: 1 Peter 2:21 "For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls."

</g5613><g5613 style="font-size: 14px;">We differ here too, it seems.
Again this scripture refers to believing on Jesus.

I suspect you might see this scripture saying that we do "no sin" as in perfect obedience to the law (as that's what the law requires for one to be without sin, James 2:10.).

Consider also the similar point made in 1Pet 4:1</g5613><g5613 style="font-size: 14px;">
Therefore, since Christ suffered for us in the flesh (crucified) , arm yourselves also with the same mind (our old man crucified with him, Rom 6:6.), for he who has suffered in the flesh (Rom 6:6.) has ceased from sin,

</g5613><g5613 style="font-size: 14px;">So how do Christians follow the example of Jesus?
We believe on Jesus and thus our old man crucified with him. And thus we ceased from sin, in that Christ is the END of the law for righteousness and now our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5. In believing on Jesus we live unto righteousness.

But the law is not of faith, Gal 3:12. And this is where the legalists get into trouble fornicating with Hagar (which is unbelief).</g5613><g5613 style="font-size: 14px;">

Therefore, I ask again:

Do you feel it is self-righteous to work the works that God gives us to do?

And do you think that we can work those works without we put forth effort from within?

And if those works are not a prerequisite of salvation then how is it that a tree bearing no fruit gets cut down and cast into the fire?
</g5613>

A Christian's works are to believe on Jesus, John 6:29.
In believing on Jesus we have Christ the firstfruits, 1Cor 15:20.
Believing on Jesus is God's will for us, John 6:40.
In believing on Jesus we're born of God, 1John 5:1
In believing on Jesus we overcome the world, 1John 5:4,5.Where we differ is that you think works that shows our faith is works of the law. And this in spite of the many scriptures warning against doing this. Those who push the law as works that shows our faith are always determining righteousness by obedience to the law. That is self-righteousness.

 

[Barny]

I think it's safe to say, neither did he have much opportunity to sin after he asked Jesus to remember him.

He confessed that he had done some wrongful things, and he recognized that Jesus hadn't done anything wrong.
Two fruits he did have,was that he did not deny Jesus before men, and he confessed that he had sinned.

Luke 23:40; But the other answered, and rebuking him said, "Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation?
Luke 23:41; "And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong."



Barny, do you watch sports at all? If so, I would ask... what level of perfection is required for an athlete to be good? Does a basketball player have to make all of his shots?
Does a baseball player have to hit a home-run at every at bat? Does a football player have to make a touchdown every single play?
Certainly they all have talent (as do we) but the thing they require is the heart to do the best they can. The desire to make all the shots.
Our desire should be NOT to sin. We may not make all of our shots, but that should be our desire. As soon as that stops being our desire, we are no longer led by the Spirit.

Now as far as God the father is concerned, we do have to make all of our shots, and we do have to be perfect. This is where Jesus and Grace comes in, he covers our weaknesses and mistakes.
However if we go on sinning WILLFULLY.. well that's another story.

What you describe above is an ambiguous gospel. I've asked you if you can provide scripture giving specifics as such ambiguous doctrines gives no assurance.

BTW, "sinning WILLFULLY" as you describe, is a reference to Heb 10:26.
This scripture is actually referring to legalists who preach works of the law. It is they who make themselves sinners (Gal 2:18.) and any of them who had known Christ (the truth) beforehand (Heb 6:4-6) , have no more sacrifice for sins.

 

[Jehonadab]

Your definition of belief is faulty, Barny. And that is the hang-up throughout all you speak about.

Don't listen to me; listen to James: James 2:19-20 "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"

Listen to Jesus: John 14:12 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father."

 

[RJ]

I did not mis-state anything, I quoted directly from the King James version. The words blameless and perfect are synonyms, they mean the same thing.

• That is the problem with adhering to a single translation, perfect and blameless are not synonymus
• blameless. Not that Noah never sinned Genesis 9:20-23 but that his devotion to God and His commandments was unchallenged for his generation 2 Samuel 22:24. Genesis 2:25....Noah's nakedness was a result of the fall of Adam and Eve and should be considered sinful.
• After the fall, all of Adam and Eve's descendants are not with out sin...except Jesus ofcourse!
• If you translate something and it does not fit into the entirety of God's word, you probably have taken it out of context erroneously.

 

[Jehonadab]

• That is the problem with adhering to a single translation, perfect and blameless are not synonymus
• blameless. Not that Noah never sinned Genesis 9:20-23 but that his devotion to God and His commandments was unchallenged for his generation 2 Samuel 22:-24
• If you translate something and it does not fit into the entirety of God's word, you probably have taken it out of context erroneously.

The fact that the word translated as perfect in the KJV is the same Hebrew word for perfection even when speaking concerning God's perfection is significant.

The Hebrew word at Genesis 6:9 for perfect or blameless is "tamiym".

The Hebrew word at Psalms 19:7 for perfect is "tamiym".

The Hebrew word at Psalms 18:30 for perfect is "tamiym".

So giving the translator of the translations that choose to use the word "blameless" the benefit of the doubt, we will assume that they used blameless as a synonym for "perfect" rather than sought to hide what the scripture actually said.

There is another way to view perfection as God does. And if a person is willing to view it God's way they will not need to struggle trying to make the scripture out to say something different than what it does say.

How do we view perfection God's way?

You already know, in that your two year old is not imperfect in your eyes simply because he or she cannot do what you or even your sixteen year old can.

Think about that and you will figure it out.

 

[james1523]

• That is the problem with adhering to a single translation, perfect and blameless are not synonymus
• blameless. Not that Noah never sinned Genesis 9:20-23 but that his devotion to God and His commandments was unchallenged for his generation 2 Samuel 22:24. Genesis 2:25....Noah's nakedness was a result of the fall of Adam and Eve and should be considered sinful.
• After the fall, all of Adam and Eve's descendants are not with out sin...except Jesus ofcourse!
• If you translate something and it does not fit into the entirety of God's word, you probably have taken it out of context erroneously.

Speaking of the entirety of God's word, as Jehonadab already explained, the Hebrew word used for perfect/blameless in Gen 6:9 is used consistently to mean perfect throughout the Bible.
I agree that Noah sinned. But Noah was not sinful - Noah was blameless/perfect, the most perfect man on the whole earth at that time. It was for this reason that God chose him to start over again.

 

[B-A-C]

Your definition of belief is faulty, Barny. And that is the hang-up throughout all you speak about.

I agree, It is obvious that belief alone isn't enough, obedience is required.

Matt 25:26; "But his master answered and said to him, 'You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed.

Matt 25:41; "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
Matt 25:42; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
Matt 25:43; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'

Believing alone isn't enough.

Matt 7:22; "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
Matt 7:23; "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

Jas 2:14; What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
Jas 2:15; If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
Jas 2:16; and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
Jas 2:17; Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

Luke 3:8; "Therefore bear fruits in keeping with repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham for our father,' for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham.
Luke 3:9; "Indeed the axe is already laid at the root of the trees; so every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."

 

[james1523]

There is a visible aspect and an invisible aspect to everything. The necessity for both visible and invisible aspects is the reason why we don't take invisible bread and wine at communion and don't baptize in invisible water, or attend invisible church. Belief without obedience is impractical. Repentance without fruit is impractical and not genuine. True repentance results in the associated fruit/actions: Matt 3:8 Produce fruit that is consistent with repentance!


That a justifying faith cannot be without works, is shown from two examples, Abraham and Rahab. Faith is the cause, obedience is the outcome. The Bible says we are justified by both, not by one or the other alone (James 2:24). Abraham was justified because he believed God, and he offered up Isaac as an act of obedience resulting from his belief. Belief in the heart will justify our person, and our obedience will justify our outward actions - James 2:24 - You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. When the apostle Paul speaks of faith, he is speaking of genuine faith that is shown by its fruits (love, joy, peace etc), a faith which establishes the law, and does not disobey it:
Rom 3:31 Do we then make the law of no effect through faith? Absolutely not! Rather, we establish the law.

 

[RJ]

The fact that the word translated as perfect in the KJV is the same Hebrew word for perfection even when speaking concerning God's perfection is significant.

The Hebrew word at Genesis 6:9 for perfect or blameless is "tamiym".

The Hebrew word at Psalms 19:7 for perfect is "tamiym".

The Hebrew word at Psalms 18:30 for perfect is "tamiym".

So giving the translator of the translations that choose to use the word "blameless" the benefit of the doubt, we will assume that they used blameless as a synonym for "perfect" rather than sought to hide what the scripture actually said.

There is another way to view perfection as God does. And if a person is willing to view it God's way they will not need to struggle trying to make the scripture out to say something different than what it does say.

How do we view perfection God's way?

You already know, in that your two year old is not imperfect in your eyes simply because he or she cannot do what you or even your sixteen year old can.

Think about that and you will figure it out.

I have already figured it out, you and James assume too much!

 

[B-A-C]

That a justifying faith cannot be without works, is shown from two examples, Abraham and Rahab.

Amen, not just these two.

In Hebrews 11, we see Noah did the works of building an ark in addition to his faith.
Rahab did the works of hiding the spies in addition to her faith
Abraham did the works of traveling to the promised land in addition to his faith
Abraham was about to sacrifice up his son in addition to his faith
Moses did the works of giving up an Egyptian inheritance in order to receive a Hebrew inheritance in addition to his faith.

How many times in the New Testament are the apostles called fellow workers? God does not want (wicked and) lazy servants.
How many times in the New Testament does Jesus criticize those who are doing nothing for the kingdom of God?

 

[Jehonadab]

I'll state that another way then.

Your definition of the Koine' Greek, "pisteuo", is faulty by the modern definition of belief.

In that culture beliefs were never a passive thing. It was recognized that belief is what motivates the actions of individuals and they always used the word to indicate both the acceptance and the result of the acceptance, that result being moved by the thing accepted.

We have got to learn to step away from modern complacency and get our minds into the culture that was being spoken to.

If we find ways to continue to stay stuck viewing these things by modern definitions we will keep running into unexpected snags in how we interpret scripture.

At James 2:19 "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble", James is scolding them for using belief wrongly after the pattern of the devils whose belief makes them tremble but does not prove sufficient to move them to obey.

They knew what James meant because they knew true belief always motivate to actions. But they were being complacent like those devils.

They knew that what James was in effect telling them is that they were acting like liars by claiming to believe.

Thus, James 2:18 "Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works."

See how that understanding really brings out the power of James message? James and they knew they could not show faith without works.