Is Repentance Necessary For Salvation?

[Barny]

How is it that you think my saying we must obey God and keep his commandments is now outdated?.

Scripture tells us Christians are not under the law, Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:24, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9.

And whatever the law says it says to those under it, Rom 3:19.

Scripture tells us that we cannot even mix works of the law with grace, Rom 11:6.

Your claim that scriptures support the doctrine you follow fails when it contradicts scripture. And I've been trying to show you the contradictions in the doctrine you follow.
Like I said, I've already come across doctrines such as what you follow, and they have always determined righteousness by works of the law. They hide this behind convoluted arguments, but the scriptures they use in support only confirm that they preach righteousness by works of the law. Some, such as James1523, even state outright that perfect obedience to the law is required to enter into eternal life.

You have acknowledged my earlier point that such doctrines are ambiguous.

But in stark contrast to the doctrine you, James1523 and B-A-C preach, the gospel of grace is not ambiguous.

BTW, the large print in an earlier post was merely to highlight a point in scripture you try to avoid. The large print option is one of the highlighting options available, and as you have no doubt noticed in my posts I highlight points in scripture with different colors and even sizes.

 

[Barny]

Thus far I have not given my answer.

What I have given is piece-meal so as to feel the views in the room out.

Are you one that believes Paul meant godliness is a mystery to Christians? It seems perhaps Barny is or he would know what that mystery is.

Perhaps you can explain your view as your scripture quote do not contradict my understanding. It seems your misunderstanding me. But it can soon be determined if you just present your view.

 

[RJ]

That is fair enough. What do you assume I assume about 2 Timothy 3:5?

• O.K., so that is enlightening!
• Also, no further comment on the previously asked: I am answering your question, why don't you follow with the same courtesey and give me your interpretation of the four scriptures in post # 102?

 

[Jehonadab]

• O.K., so that is enlightening!
• Also, no further comment on the previously asked: I am answering your question, why don't you follow with the same courtesey and give me your interpretation of the four scriptures in post # 102?

You said. quote, "the only works that God will accept, are works through the vine, from the Spirit and only after salvation. Works prior to salvation are meaningless!"

I fully agree with but the one exception that is the works which prove faith. Faith is a work, not according to me, but according to scripture.

I do believe that it is a rather small amount of works by faith at first, but that is to be expected as we need the vine before we have any real power of God to become fruitful in greater abundance. And I believe that we cannot even take credit for that small beginning as God is the one that has sowed that seed and the work faith performs even in it's infancy are the result of the spirit warming that seed sow that it begins to grow. 1 Corinthians 3:6-7

I believe we have some differences in what we perceive that power of God to be as I perceive it to be the power of God's wisdom, which is the spirit that is on God's literal word as opposed to the weaker wisdom of foolishness that is the spirit upon words which originate of our own wisdom.

If I seem slow to respond, I apologize. I do the best this old body permits. My mind feels like a young man but my body refuses to allow me to forget that I am not.

Those first small works before salvation are in the vine in that Jesus died for us from the beginning of the world.

 

[Jehonadab]

Perhaps you can explain your view as your scripture quote do not contradict my understanding. It seems your misunderstanding me. But it can soon be determined if you just present your view.

I will when I figure it out. I don't write my beliefs down solid inside me at first. I let them remain more as suspicions of truth so that I can adjust them as the spirit shows me more. I am really a rather unintelligent man of my own self.

 

[RJ]

You said. quote, "the only works that God will accept, are works through the vine, from the Spirit and only after salvation. Works prior to salvation are meaningless!"

I fully agree with but the one exception that is the works which prove faith. Faith is a work, not according to me, but according to scripture.

I do believe that it is a rather small amount of works by faith at first, but that is to be expected as we need the vine before we have any real power of God to become fruitful in greater abundance. And I believe that we cannot even take credit for that small beginning as God is the one that has sowed that seed and the work faith performs even in it's infancy are the result of the spirit warming that seed sow that it begins to grow. 1 Corinthians 3:6-7

I believe we have some differences in what we perceive that power of God to be as I perceive it to be the power of God's wisdom, which is the spirit that is on God's literal word as opposed to the weaker wisdom of foolishness that is the spirit upon words which originate of our own wisdom.

If I seem slow to respond, I apologize. I do the best this old body permits. My mind feels like a young man but my body refuses to allow me to forget that I am not.

Those first small works before salvation are in the vine in that Jesus died for us from the beginning of the world.

• O.K., why I do not know but you elect not to interpret the 4 scriptures that I asked for. I have always answered your questions.
• I fully agree with but the one exception that is the works which prove faith. Faith is a work, not according to me, but according to scripture
• ((Faith does not cause or bring about the new birth, but God's effectual call and the Spirit's work of regeneration produces faith and repentance.))
• Works are works and Faith is a gift of God. Your faith comes from God, you do not work for it or make it yourself.
• Agreed, once saved, if there is no fruits (works) of the spirit through you, your faith is very well be dead!

 

[Jehonadab]

• O.K., why I do not know but you elect not to interpret the 4 scriptures that I asked for. I have always answered your questions.
• I fully agree with but the one exception that is the works which prove faith. Faith is a work, not according to me, but according to scripture

1. Works are works and Faith is a gift of God. Your faith comes from God, you do not work for it or make it yourself.
2. Agreed, once saved, if there is no fruits (works) of the spirit through you, your faith may very well be dead!

(Ephesians 2:8) What I see said there is:

(1) It is purely the grace of God that saves us for nothing else could save us but for that grace.
(2) That grace comes to us by means of or through faith, which is why we need to be willing to receive of God at least a mustard seed of that faith before he can begin his work in us.
(3) And any of this at any point can only be the free gift of God matter matter what works he requires of us within the operation of his grace, for he could have left us dead and powerless, unable to get free from the bondage of sin and death. Christ paid the way to that freedom to grow to salvation through the operation of God's grace or we would not have it to save us. Therefore it being free has nothing to do with whether he can yet require some works of us. Nothing we could do could bring it and nothing we could be asked of him to do can nullify that it came as a free gift and remains a free gift.

(John 15:5) What I see said there is: Grace, through faith, sows us into Jesus that we may feed of the life in him which is the wisdom of God's word and the power of that word of wisdom to produce results to an increase of life. (John 6:63)

(James 2:17) What I see said there is: "Even so faith, if it hath not [the] works [of God], is dead, being alone."

(James 2:26) What I see said there is: "For as the body without the spirit [from God] is dead, so faith without works [from God] is dead also."

 

[Jehonadab]

Allow me to address this part separately: You said, quote, "I fully agree with but the one exception that is the works which prove faith. Faith is a work, not according to me, but according to scripture."

When we look at the works James mentioned we must consider what the source of the inspiration of those works was. They were inspired of God to perform those works and therefore the works Jame speaks of are all of faith. If the works were not present no faith would have been evidenced as present.

Our works in the vine prove we are in the vine. If we are really in the vine we cannot be fruitless of good works. All credit due to God through the vine.

 

[RJ]

(Ephesians 2:8) What I see said there is:

(1) It is purely the grace of God that saves us for nothing else could save us but for that grace.
(2) That grace comes to us by means of or through faith, which is why we need to be willing to receive of God at least a mustard seed of that faith before he can begin his work in us.
(3) And any of this at any point can only be the free gift of God matter matter what works he requires of us within the operation of his grace, for he could have left us dead and powerless, unable to get free from the bondage of sin and death. Christ paid the way to that freedom to grow to salvation through the operation of God's grace or we would not have it to save us. Therefore it being free has nothing to do with whether he can yet require some works of us. Nothing we could do could bring it and nothing we could be asked of him to do can nullify that it came as a free gift and remains a free gift.

(John 15:5) What I see said there is: Grace, through faith, sows us into Jesus that we may feed of the life in him which is the wisdom of God's word and the power of that word of wisdom to produce results to an increase of life. (John 6:63)

(James 2:17) What I see said there is: "Even so faith, if it hath not [the] works [of God], is dead, being alone."

(James 2:26) What I see said there is: "For as the body without the spirit [from God] is dead, so faith without works [from God] is dead also."

O.K., so we agree:

• We are saved by grace alone.
• We are not saved by works but works after salvation is a sign of a valid faith.
• God wants us to agree.
• I am now at a loss why there was a level of contention between us.

 

[Jehonadab]

O.K., so we agree:

• We are saved by grace alone.
• We are not saved by works but works after salvation is a sign of a valid faith.
• God wants us to agree.
• I am now at a loss why there was a level of contention between us.

Well, brother, isn't that sort of normal to human conversation. That is why we are supposed believe the best about our brothers and reign ourselves in for the sake of love.

And we all grow as we go, thanks be to God for allowing us this experience, for he could have just revealed it all to our minds in the same exact words, but obviously has chosen not to that we might learn to exercise his love.

 

[RJ]

Well, brother, isn't that sort of normal to human conversation. That is why we are supposed believe the best about our brothers and reign ourselves in for the sake of love.

And we all grow as we go, thanks be to God for allowing us this experience, for he could have just revealed it all to our minds in the same exact words, but obviously has chosen not to that we might learn to exercise his love.

Amen to that!

 

[Jehonadab]

Scripture tells us Christians are not under the law, Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:24, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9.

Fully agreed as to that Old handwritten law of condemnation, but don't we sometimes confuse that Old Law being spoken about with the "law of [the spirit in] Christ" when it is what is being referred to? (1 Corinthians 9:21) Could we go through and highlight those places where it is the "law of Christ" being spoken about? Then we can see what the body of all those scriptures present together?

And whatever the law says it says to those under it, Rom 3:19.

Again, fully agreed.

Scripture tells us that we cannot even mix works of the law with grace, Rom 11:6.

Agreed in the sense that this specifically means works of the Old handwritten law of condemnation and death, pursued of one's own shabby righteousness.

Your claim that scriptures support the doctrine you follow fails when it contradicts scripture. And I've been trying to show you the contradictions in the doctrine you follow.

OK, I accept that comes of the way you understand what I am saying and not necessarily because of what I really believe. I do stumble in words like everyone else and sometimes it is not easy for others to grasp a correct view of my perspectives.

Like I said, I've already come across doctrines such as what you follow, and they have always determined righteousness by works of the law. They hide this behind convoluted arguments, but the scriptures they use in support only confirm that they preach righteousness by works of the law. Some, such as James1523, even state outright that perfect obedience to the law is required to enter into eternal life.

I accept that from you, also, as I know it is meant in the good faith of love for my benefit. I do not believe in righteousness by works of that Old Law, however.

You have acknowledged my earlier point that such doctrines are ambiguous.

But in stark contrast to the doctrine you, James1523 and B-A-C preach, the gospel of grace is not ambiguous.

That is also why this is not an easy subject to discuss. However, I honestly don't think you are fully understanding what myself or James is saying. Neither of us are preaching works of one's own righteousness as pursued of that Old Law.

BTW, the large print in an earlier post was merely to highlight a point in scripture you try to avoid. The large print option is one of the highlighting options available, and as you have no doubt noticed in my posts I highlight points in scripture with different colors and even sizes.

Yes, I reviewed our posts and found places where you could have easily thought that of me. That was a wrong perception of your demeanor, all my fault. I apologize.

 

[Jehonadab]

On the judgement day we will be judged on whether we did good or bad.

Good = believe on Jesus.

Bad = unbelief, which also manifests itself as lusting after Hagar as that would be lukewarm.
Rom 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

I agree, but perhaps you could describe the spiritual mechanics in greater detail which to your mind are what is responsible for producing the fruitfulness of good works in us?

I've come across similar doctrine to what you are preaching.
It offers a facade of love, but at it's core is the doctrine of righteousness by works of the law, which is sexual immorality with Hagar.

I agree, I see the same thing, but also the other extreme which is to totally reject need for even the works God gives us to do by his righteousness. You see, I believe God teaches us his righteousness by giving us things to do that we can learn to exercise that righteousness and incorporate it more fully into our character. I believe that is how, 2 Corinthians 3:18 "But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord." And we would not do that but for our faith which sows us into the vine. And we would not have the opportunity to be sown into that vine but for his grace.

Contrary to the doctrine you follow, we see that Christians do love one another, as Jesus commanded.
hence we do not preach the law as a measure of ones righteousness.
We believe on Jesus and thus our faith is counted for righteousness. And we preach this gospel to the lost.
And should anyone do any wrong we show the same love/grace God showed us. We forgive 7x70.

I see some do love one another and some are yet learning to love one another. Those I associate with I find are at least trying to put off that old man and put on the new, else I would not associate with them.

You say that we do not preach the law as a measure of ones righteousness. I agree with that concerning the old law of condemnation and death, however, the question is, "What then does God judge our works by as to whether they were good or bad?" That is why I want you to explain to me your view of the spiritual mechanics which transform us into that one new man. (Ephesians 2:15; Ephesians 4:24; Colossians 3:10; Ephesians 4:23)

Perhaps you could describe the spiritual mechanics in greater detail which to your mind are what is responsible for producing the fruitfulness of good works in us?

 

[Jehonadab]

As to the the Spiritual Mechanics of Obedience through Faith in Christ:


That mankind's solution to his troubles lay at the foot of the cross is foolishness to the majority of mankind. Why? It is easy to say that it is because they lack faith but that is a no-brainier.


The reason it is a mystery is because not knowing Christ and the details of what he did and why, it remains a mystery to them, and they thus say in themselves, “That man did not even have the wisdom to save himself, so how could there possibly be anything there of use to me!!!” They thus stay stuck depending upon their own wisdom, which in this world seems to be the only reasonable thing to do.


This is why I feel it is imperative that Christians understand there are no longer any mysteries to us if we really and truly have put on the mind of Christ. Surely nothing is a mystery to Christ: 1 Corinthians 2:16 “For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.”


It was only to those with hearts currently bound up stubbornly in self-righteousness that Jesus spoke in a manner they could not understand: Luke 8:10 “And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.”


But Jesus' parable did not ever really border on the mysterious unknown. He always spoke things that would have made sense to them if their hearts were right. Matthew 13:15 “For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.”


Some Christians today present the message of Christ as though godliness through faith in Christ remains a mystery even to we Christians. They believe God does it all in us, for us, by a mysterious power we cannot fully understand and in believing this they convince the world that it is even a mystery to us how God does this. That then convinces the world of the lack of credibility of belief in Christ. At 1 Corinthians 2:1-16 verses 6, 8, 10, 12, and 16 should jump out at us. Verse 16 is the reason 6, 8, 10, and 12 are possible.


And if we have the mind of Christ then we do understand those mysteries that when the opportunity arises we can help other willing ones whom God has humbled to understand them, too.


We should know the spiritual mechanics of obedience through faith in Christ and we have a responsibility to not simply know those mechanics but to put them into use in our lives. Until we do that we are useless to God as ministers.


If we truly have the mind of Christ then we should be able to explain to others how we acquired the mind of Christ by the spiritual mechanics of it.


It is really not that difficult for those of us that accept Christ is to us the power and the wisdom of God.


1 Corinthians 1:24 “But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.” (KJV)


In fact, I believe it is the word of God which most directly results in the power of God to us: Psalms 33:6 “By the word of the LORD were the heavens made, and all the Hosts of them by the breath of his mouth.” Hebrews 4:12 “For the word of God is quick<[quickening or life-giving], and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.”


1 Peter 1:23 “for ye are born a new, not of mortal <¦corruptible¦> seed, but of immortal <¦uncorruptible¦> seed, by the word of God which liveth, and lasteth for ever, <¦by the living word of God, which endureth for ever¦>” (1 Corinthians 3:6)


1 Peter 1:23 is what John was speaking of: 1 John 3:9 “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.”


OK, so you know that God could have revealed his word to all of our minds implanting the exact same thoughts in all of us, but he didn't. And he didn't because it is by communicating with each other so as to reach agreement with each other that we have a chance to put the righteousness of his love into practice in our lives. And by practicing his righteous love we gradually etch it into our own personalities. And God's love in us is then what fulfills God's laws in us, all credit to God. (Romans 13:8-10)


As I said in my previous post, I believe God teaches us his righteousness by giving us things to do that we can learn to exercise that righteousness and incorporate it more fully into our character, just as it is plain that he does with the righteousness of his love. I believe that is how, 2 Corinthians 3:18 "But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord." And we would not do that but for our faith which sows us into the vine. And we would not have the opportunity to be sown into that vine but for his grace.


We need to see that Paul is here telling us to imitate, not him, but Christ in him, the righteousness of God he exercises after the spirit in Christ. Philippians 4:8-9 “Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.”


1 Corinthians 11:1 “Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.”


Romans 12:2 “And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.”


It is significant that it is the practice of sin which God even under grace punishes for when we are practicing sin we cannot be practicing his righteousness.


Romans 6:16 “Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”


This is no longer a mystery to us and we must know that lest we assist the world in their blindness.

 

[Barny]

Hi Jehonadab,

You will no doubt appreciate that each of us here have different constraints. For example, we're aware of your health issues which hinders your efforts here. Likewise I too have constraints in terms of limited time for forums due to job commitments. In addition, due to my age and the sedentary nature of my job, I have developed muscular issues which I hope one day to regain some degree of normality through exercise. Hence long periods on forums, as interesting as they are, prevent me from doing the exercise that I really need to do. Although I would rather discuss scriptures with others, the reality is that my body will suffer for it if I don't do some exercise.

With that in mind I ask if it's possible to make fewer points in your posts for me to answer. I realize that you may have more time available for forums than I do, but unfortunately that's the reality we are faced with.

Plus a timely warning to any here who are living a sedentary lifestyle. By all means exercise. You'll be glad you did. They say that sitting is the new smoking. Many in modern societies have many muscular ailments due to a sedentary lifestyle.

Fully agreed as to that Old handwritten law of condemnation, but don't we sometimes confuse that Old Law being spoken about with the "law of [the spirit in] Christ" when it is what is being referred to? (1 Corinthians 9:21) Could we go through and highlight those places where it is the "law of Christ" being spoken about? Then we can see what the body of all those scriptures present together?

The 10 commandments are part of the law of sin and death.
And the issue being debated here is how legalists argue that a minimum standard (some claiming perfect obedience is required whilst others suggest some ambiguous lessor level is ok) of obedience to the law is required as proof one is righteous. In reality this is judging righteousness by works of the law.

But in contradiction to the legalists claims, we see that our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.

That is also why this is not an easy subject to discuss. However, I honestly don't think you are fully understanding what myself or James is saying. Neither of us are preaching works of one's own righteousness as pursued of that Old Law.

I realize you and James1523 claim that you are not saying that it's your efforts at works of the law are what doing it. But we disagree with each other here. I see such claims as man's doctrine trying to lead people back under the law for righteousness by (dead) works.

I'll try to get back to answering some of your other posts after work.

 

[Jehonadab]

Hi Jehonadab,

You will no doubt appreciate that each of us here have different constraints. For example, we're aware of your health issues which hinders your efforts here. Likewise I too have constraints in terms of limited time for forums due to job commitments. In addition, due to my age and the sedentary nature of my job, I have developed muscular issues which I hope one day to regain some degree of normality through exercise. Hence long periods on forums, as interesting as they are, prevent me from doing the exercise that I really need to do. Although I would rather discuss scriptures with others, the reality is that my body will suffer for it if I don't do some exercise.

With that in mind I ask if it's possible to make fewer points in your posts for me to answer. I realize that you may have more time available for forums than I do, but unfortunately that's the reality we are faced with.

Plus a timely warning to any here who are living a sedentary lifestyle. By all means exercise. You'll be glad you did. They say that sitting is the new smoking. Many in modern societies have many muscular ailments due to a sedentary lifestyle.

Yes, I should have been out exercising today as I usually do on warm days. I ride a bicycle because my knees fill with unbearable pain when I walk too much and the bicycle keeps my weight off my knees which helps minimize that. In fact, riding my bicycle regularly has proven to improve my blood circulation in my legs which makes them hurt less and heal better. I have battled a leg ulcer on my right leg since December 3rd when my knees gave out and I went down on stones, one of which caused me to sustain a deep puncture wound to my right shim which grew to a deep ulcer about the size of a half dollar coin. I am only now finally succeeding to get it to heal and that mostly to the credit of exercising it so that the blood flows better.

I was speaking to another older man about a week ago in front of whose house I had a flat tire on my bicycle. We agreed that this getting old business teaches us a lot and will be interesting to look back upon for the lessons learned when God delivers us from this body. Everything he allows us to suffer has a purpose for our good if we would only recognize it. Admittedly, often that is very difficult even for those of strong faith. I really feel for those who lack that faith. They have nothing to soften the burden of their flesh.

The 10 commandments are part of the law of sin and death.
And the issue being debated here is how legalists argue that a minimum standard (some claiming perfect obedience is required whilst others suggest some ambiguous lessor level is ok) of obedience to the law is required as proof one is righteous. In reality this is judging righteousness by works of the law.

But in contradiction to the legalists claims, we see that our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.

You and I ought to both know that our faith is not counted for righteousness so that we can just sing, 'La la la', I'm saved'. There is a purpose to it and that is that we be able to be accepted before God with a clean conscience so that he can begin his work in us. And the spiritual mechanics of his work in us we have a responsibility to understand so that we can comply with his work in us. If we do not, then we have missed his purpose and accepted his grace in vain just as much as if we yet were trying to be like him depending on our own righteousness rather than the spirit of his righteousness his living word imparts to us.

You'll note that I put in brackets next to the statement Paul made that "the word of God is quick or alive or living [quickening or life-giving]. I don't mean that is what the word is there but I am drawing attention to the fact that it takes life to give life and his word in us is not about searching for reasons to destroys but is there to impart life to us.

I realize you and James1523 claim that you are not saying that it's your efforts at works of the law are what doing it. But we disagree with each other here. I see such claims as man's doctrine trying to lead people back under the law for righteousness by (dead) works.

I'll try to get back to answering some of your other posts after work.

You don't understand yet. Why not give it some more thought instead of being so certain that what you have accepted is right? Remain open and able to be molded in God's hands instead of assuming your enlightenment was flawless as you discovered it. I used to believe what you do but I grew past it as I came to understand more with the help of the spirit in the hand of Christ and upon God's word.

I know that is not easy as I have had my own struggles with that in the past. That is not what makes us evil. But being so stuck on the idea that we are right does blind us to learning more. It ends us up, here: Romans 10:2 "For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge." And for many it does lead to doing evil.

Added: I should have added that the day my bicycle had the flat tire I had forgotten my tools and patches which I usually carry on my bicycle. My conversation about God occurred in that elderly gentleman's garage where he had led me so that he could repair my tire for me. What were the chances that I would forget my own tools and patches and ride ten miles and then have a flat in front of a person's house who was fully equipped to fix it for me? I did not have to walk any farther than the road in front of his house to his garage about 200 feet away. And I had no problems getting home on my bicycle from there.

Mysterious ways? No, there is nothing mysterious to me about God's love.

 

[Barny]

I see some do love one another and some are yet learning to love one another. Those I associate with I find are at least trying to put off that old man and put on the new, else I would not associate with them.

I suspect we read scripture differently.

I understand that those who have not put off the old man are those in unbelief. This includes the legalists who say "Lord, Lord...." but have succumbed to the lust of the flesh by fornicating with Hagar (righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24).

BUT, those who have put off the old man are those who believe on Jesus.
Such love one another showing the same love/grace God showed us, forgiving 7x70.
And we'll see various levels of this due to the fact that each Christian will be at different stages of growth. Hence we don't judge one another's behavior. God is well able to work directly in the life of a believer to improve them.
And Christians never say to others that unless they obey the law perfectly ( or to some ambiguous, unspecified, minimum standard) then they cannot enter into eternal life, as to do such would be lusting after Hagar.

You say that we do not preach the law as a measure of ones righteousness. I agree with that concerning the old law of condemnation and death, however, the question is, "What then does God judge our works by as to whether they were good or bad?" That is why I want you to explain to me your view of the spiritual mechanics which transform us into that one new man. (Ephesians 2:15; Ephesians 4:24; Colossians 3:10; Ephesians 4:23)

Perhaps you could describe the spiritual mechanics in greater detail which to your mind are what is responsible for producing the fruitfulness of good works in us?

Good = believe on Jesus

Bad = unbelief in Jesus (which includes righteousness by works of the law).

The mechanics?
Christians believe God's promise of eternal life in Christ Jesus.
That's the simplicity of the gospel.

But legalists can't accept this. Sadly they think that simply believing God's promise is too simple, hence they mix works of the law with grace to create a lukewarm doctrine that satisfies their desire to be under the law.

Regarding your scripture quotes, see below.

Eph 4:22-24
that you put off, concerning your former conduct (unbelief) , the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and that you put on the new man ( believe on Jesus) which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

Eph 2:15
having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,

A Christian's life is hid with Christ in God, Col 3:3
Hence it's Christ's righteousness, holiness, perfection, that covers us.
Christians have submitted to God's righteousness and are therefore not in rebellion/sin. We have peace with God.

Legalists and other un-believers do not submit to God's righteousness. They are in disobedience to God, at war with Him. They choose the lust of the flesh preferring spiritual drunkenness with the spiritual wine of fornication, Rev 17:1.
Col 3:9,10 Do not lie ( deny that Jesus is the Christ, 1John 2:22.) to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds (unbelief/ dead works/righteousness by works of the law), and have put on the new man (believe on Jesus) who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him,

 

[Barny]

And if we have the mind of Christ then we do understand those mysteries that when the opportunity arises we can help other willing ones whom God has humbled to understand them, too..

It's the Spirit within us that gives us the understanding.
Christians might share scriptures but until someone is ready to receive the understanding then they will not accept it.
But remember 1John 2:27
But the anointing (Christ in us/the mind of Christ) which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.

Matt 23:8
But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren.

We need to see that Paul is here telling us to imitate, not him, but Christ in him, the righteousness of God he exercises after the spirit in Christ. Philippians 4:8-9 “Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.”.

Here Paul is talking about fighting the good fight of faith.
Remember that Christians are striving, running a race for a crown. This is referring to our works of believing on Jesus, John 6:29.

Romans 12:2 “And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.”.

To be conformed to this world is to be in unbelief. This includes mixing works of the law with grace.

To be transformed is to believe on Jesus, hence the old man is crucified and we become a new creation.
The perfect will of God is that we believe on Jesus, John 6:40.
To believe on Jesus is the "good deeds" that Christians seek to do.

It is significant that it is the practice of sin which God even under grace punishes for when we are practicing sin we cannot be practicing his righteousness..


Romans 6:16 “Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
.

Note verse 22
ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

What is a Christians "fruit unto holiness"?
It's Christ the firstfruits, 1Cor 15:20.
And when we believe on Jesus, his sacrifice sanctified us (Heb 10:10).
Remember also, Rom 11:16..
For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.When we believe on Jesus then we have the fruit unto holiness.
Hence we see in scripture that it's not referring to obedience to the law as you suggest.

Regarding the "practice of sin" that you speak of, this is referring to those under the law (such as the legalists who mix works of the law with grace).
Remember that whatever the law says it says to those under it, Rom 3:19.

Christians are not under the law, Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:24, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9.

 

[Jehonadab]

Jenonadab's reply per Barny's posts 137 & 138:

In post 137, Barny quoted

I see some do love one another and some are yet learning to love one another. Those I associate with I find are at least trying to put off that old man and put on the new, else I would not associate with them.

Barney replied:

I suspect we read scripture differently.

I understand that those who have not put off the old man are those in unbelief. This includes the legalists who say "Lord, Lord...." but have succumbed to the lust of the flesh by fornicating with Hagar (righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24).

Notice what you did there, Barny. You completely ignore that when Paul spoke saying to put off that old man and put on the new, in both cases Paul was speaking to believers and applying his words to believers. You said, “I understand that those who have not put off the old man are those in unbelief.” Re-examine it and be honest with yourself as to whom Paul was speaking: Colossians 3:1-17

You are obsessed with this Hagar revelation to the point that you try to apply it to everything. If Paul were speaking to those he would have said so because Hagar's children would believe that they already were doing what Paul said.

In post 137, Barny quoted:

You say that we do not preach the law as a measure of ones righteousness. I agree with that concerning the old law of condemnation and death, however, the question is, "What then does God judge our works by as to whether they were good or bad?" That is why I want you to explain to me your view of the spiritual mechanics which transform us into that one new man.

Barny replied:

BUT, those who have put off the old man are those who believe on Jesus.
Such love one another showing the same love/grace God showed us, forgiving 7x70.
And we'll see various levels of this due to the fact that each Christian will be at different stages of growth. Hence we don't judge one another's behavior. God is well able to work directly in the life of a believer to improve them.
And Christians never say to others that unless they obey the law perfectly ( or to some ambiguous, unspecified, minimum standard) then they cannot enter into eternal life, as to do such would be lusting after Hagar.

You did not answer my question. My question was, "What then does God judge our works by as to whether they were good or bad?" Instead, you used avoidance by turning the attention to how we are supposed to judge or not supposed to judge one another, rather than answer what God looks at to judge our works, as I asked.

You replied with an an ambiguous, “God is well able to work directly in the life of a believer to improve them”, but you did not detail how God does this. And your response to my telling you this will likely be an ambiguous, “It's the power of God”, for you have done that in your past posts. That is avoidance, Barny.

You said “And Christians never say to others that unless they obey the law perfectly ( or to some ambiguous, unspecified, minimum standard) then they cannot enter into eternal life, as to do such would be lusting after Hagar.” There you go with your diversion once again to your Hagar obsession, refusing to recognize counsel with was issue to professed Christians. Duck and avoid is the game you play.

You are unable to explain to me your view of the spiritual mechanics which transform us into that one new man because you don't know those spiritual mechanics and have found sundry ideas and ways to keep yourself from ever learning them.

In post 138, Barny quoted:

And if we have the mind of Christ then we do understand those mysteries that when the opportunity arises we can help other willing ones whom God has humbled to understand them, too..

Barny replied:

It's the Spirit within us that gives us the understanding.
Christians might share scriptures but until someone is ready to receive the understanding then they will not accept it.
But remember 1John 2:27
But the anointing (Christ in us/the mind of Christ) which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you willabide in Him.

Matt 23:8
But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren.

Is that how you excuse yourself that it is not your fault anyone rejects the message as you present it? Quote, it's the Spirit within us that gives us the understanding. Christians might share scriptures but until someone is ready to receive the understanding then they will not accept it.

What you present after that is but an excuse for why you believe you need not listen and learn from anyone else. There is another spirit, also, Barny. That spirit can make ones very stuck in false ideas. And what craftier way to do that than obsession with Hager so that they apply it to everything instead of hearing the counsel given to all professed believers.

In post 138, Barny quoted:

We need to see that Paul is here telling us to imitate, not him, but Christ in him, the righteousness of God he exercises after the spirit in Christ. Philippians 4:8-9 “Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.”.

Barny replied:

Here Paul is talking about fighting the good fight of faith.
Remember that Christians are striving, running a race for a crown. This is referring to our works of believing on Jesus, John 6:29.

Again you are unable to explain how belief works. It is easier for you to reply with ambiguities than to explain answers you do not understand.

In post 138, Barny quoted:

Romans 12:2 “And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.”.

Barny replied:

To be conformed to this world is to be in unbelief. This includes mixing works of the law with grace.

To be transformed is to believe on Jesus, hence the old man is crucified and we become a new creation.
The perfect will of God is that we believe on Jesus, John 6:40.
To believe on Jesus is the "good deeds" that Christians seek to do.

There you go again with your famous avoidance, dismissing words spoken to professed believers as though Paul only meant it applies to those in unbelief.

And again you give your ambiguous reply that all it takes as belief. That is because you don't know how belief works. You don't have any answers, only diversion and avoidance.

In post 138, Barny quoted:

It is significant that it is the practice of sin which God even under grace punishes for when we are practicing sin we cannot be practicing his righteousness..

Romans 6:16 "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

Barny replied:

Note verse 22
ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

What is a Christians"fruit unto holiness"?
It's Christ the firstfruits, 1Cor 15:20.
And when we believe on Jesus, his sacrifice sanctified us (Heb 10:10).
Remember also, Rom 11:16..
For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.When we believe on Jesus then we have the fruit unto holiness.
Hence we see in scripture that it's not referring to obedience to the law as you suggest.

Regarding the "practice of sin" that you speak of, this is referring to those under the law (such as the legalists who mix works of the law with grace).
Remember that whatever the law says it says to those under it, Rom 3:19.

Christians are not under the law, Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:24, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9.

Where in there did you address the part, “and the end everlasting life.”

You have to tell me what it is I suggest because you don't know what I am saying. If you did not tell me what I suggest you'd have nothing to speak about. Well, then I guess you'll just have to remain stuck addressing your own imagination, things you imagine are, quote, “suggested”, for you have no ability to hear.

You do not understand me and you do not understand Paul. Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

You think Paul is there telling Jesus will do it for you. You do not understand that Paul was speaking about staying plugged into and dependent upon the literal word through the vine, which word is spirit and life to you IF you listen to it and learn from it.


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You would probably dog me by claiming I doubt the power of God when the truth is that I have listened so as to know both his power and how he does his work in us by wisdom. You haven't listened and so you don't know the answer. You have frequently dismissed Paul's counsel to believers by claiming he means those who have Hagar's mindset. You have so many things that you just take for granted that you are stuck exactly where Hagar's children are and do not know it. You have not listened to be able to know or to believe in all the counsel of Christ. And so you are stuck.


I see no point in continuing with you.


I love you, Barny, but it is futility to expect to be able to reason with you. That is why I elected to just point out your evasions in your last two posts.


Until I see a real effort at reasoning come from you I will no longer respond to you. What others do is their choice. No one is benefiting anyone by struggling with your diversion and avoidance.

 

[Barny]

There you go again with your famous avoidance, dismissing words spoken to professed believers as though Paul only meant it applies to those in unbelief.

And again you give your ambiguous reply that all it takes as belief. That is because you don't know how belief works. You don't have any answers, only diversion and avoidance.

In post 138, Barny quoted:

Barny replied:

Where in there did you address the part, “and the end everlasting life.”

You have to tell me what it is I suggest because you don't know what I am saying. If you did not tell me what I suggest you'd have nothing to speak about. Well, then I guess you'll just have to remain stuck addressing your own imagination, things you imagine are, quote, “suggested”, for you have no ability to hear.

You do not understand me and you do not understand Paul. Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

You think Paul is there telling Jesus will do it for you. You do not understand that Paul was speaking about staying plugged into and dependent upon the literal word through the vine, which word is spirit and life to you IF you listen to it and learn from it.


<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>


You would probably dog me by claiming I doubt the power of God when the truth is that I have listened so as to know both his power and how he does his work in us by wisdom. You haven't listened and so you don't know the answer. You have frequently dismissed Paul's counsel to believers by claiming he means those who have Hagar's mindset. You have so many things that you just take for granted that you are stuck exactly where Hagar's children are and do not know it. You have not listened to be able to know or to believe in all the counsel of Christ. And so you are stuck.

I see no point in continuing with you.

I love you, Barny, but it is futility to expect to be able to reason with you. That is why I elected to just point out your evasions in your last two posts.

Until I see a real effort at reasoning come from you I will no longer respond to you. What others do is their choice. No one is benefiting anyone by struggling with your diversion and avoidance.

all debates run their course and thus, as you put it, "Until I see a real effort at reasoning come from you I will no longer respond to you".

For you, "reasoning" means coming around to your point of view.
Instead we see that the reality is that it is God's truth that we all need to come around to and accept.

Your points in your last post arguing against my understanding, reflect your desire to be under the law which has blinded you. That is unfortunate.
I pray that one day you will see the truth.

BTW, the point that you make about my failure to address the part about "everlasting life", I thought that would have been obvious. Believe on Jesus and you will have everlasting life. This is consistent with the gospel and the point I was making in that post.