Do You Have To Be Baptised To Recieve The Holy Spirit

[RJ]

Please, go take a reading & comprehension class, RJ.

For one, did you notice that there were no quotation marks around what I said that you called me, RJ? In English grammar, that is usually a sign that the writer is not trying to quote what was said. You did pretty much accuse me of blasphemy earlier in the thread ( I'm not doing all the work, it's there, if you want to see it go look yourself ). The way that you are questioning what I say is an indicator that you also believe me to be someone deceived, not a true believer, so ... is there any other option here than understanding that you think of me as an unbeliever? If I admittedly do not believe the things that you are saying, and what you are saying is the only way for someone to be saved, why should I not assume that you are pretty much calling me an unbeliever? I do not believe you about much of anything that you say, and in your eyes that makes me an unbeliever. So ... I do have to admit to adding the word 'Hell' myself, you know, paraphrasing a little. Anyway, take it how you want to, RJ, you are good at that.

• pretty much accuse me of blasphemy "Pretty much" is in your mind. If the shoe fits, wear it! But it still remains a false accusation on your part not mine. I stand by my rightful rebuttal: I didn't say it and, you still can't prove it no matter how you try to white-wash it!
• I do have to admit to adding the word 'Hell' myself, you know, paraphrasing a little. You have the gall to lecture me on the English! You can't make an accusation and use a paraphrase to support it. You have lost all creditability!
• I have tried to leave several times but came back in hopes of making sense with you, but I know now that is a lost proposition. When you run out of explanations you resort to untruths and false accusations to prop yourself .
• It is disgusting and totally inappropriate here at TJ. I hate it but I am officially done with responding to your false nature.
• I just pray that you don't do this to anyone else!

 

[Stickz]

This is insane! The very thought you don't really know that Mary was impregnated by and Jesus was born of the Spirit, is deeply disturbing. This goes along with your lack of knowledge or faith! This is a Talk Jesus sight dedicated to all the aspects of Jesus. Your blasphemous talk is certainly not welcomed by me.

Someone who commits blasphemy is still a blasphemer these days, right? Anyone? The definition hasn't changed on me has it?

RJ, you keep bringing up what is appropriate and okay here at Talk Jesus and I'm pretty sure that you have broken quite a few of the rules yourself. I mean, what is it that you are trying to do when you keep warning me about it? Are you hoping to bring attention to our posts, hoping that Chad or one of the Moderators will step in and judge between us, or what? I feel like I've been pretty pleasant with you in this thread, but I'll welcome being banned from Talk Jesus if your behavior here in this thread has been ideal Talk Jesus material and mine has not.

 

[norapture]

Hey Stickz John's baptists I believe was from God. Just like he was ordained by God from the beginning of his life.

 

[Stickz]

Thanks, norapture.

 

[Darrian sims]

Im'a break it down simple.
Two types of baptism's 1 Holy Spirit.

1) Baptism in Christ. Happens when we first get saved.
•receive a new nature.

2) Baptism with the Holy Spirit. Happens after we get saved.
•speak in tongues

 

[Stickz]

Darrian sims, can I assume that you're one of those people that believe that everyone speaks in tongues when they have truly received the Holy Spirit? Like, tongues is the evidence of the Spirit?

And I believe that scripture is pretty clear that there is only one baptism(?).

 

[RJ]

Im'a break it down simple.
Two types of baptism's 1 Holy Spirit.

1) Baptism in Christ. Happens when we first get saved.
•receive a new nature.

2) Baptism with the Holy Spirit. Happens after we get saved.
•speak in tongues

• Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the same and both God.
• Speaking of tongues in not a requirement for salvation and only if it is done properly , according to God, is it only given to one as a gift from God, nothing more!

 

[Stickz]

Not to mention, speaking in "tongues" can be so easily faked that it isn't really "evidence" of anything. What happened at Pentecost and what happens in churches today are entirely two separate things. Why are tongues the only gift of the Holy Spirit that anyone ever seems to get today? Why don't we have a whole bunch of people in the body of Christ today that have the gifts of healing? We could sure use it with all the sick that we have.

I Corinthians 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
I Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
I Corinthians 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
I Corinthians 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
I Corinthians 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

I Corinthians 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
I Corinthians 14:24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
I Corinthians 14:25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.
I Corinthians 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

I believe that there are a lot of people out there faking tongues and believe that they will not go unpunished.

 

[B-A-C]

In the Bible, having the Holy Spirit was not a requirement to be saved. Many people received the Holy Spirit after they had been saved a while.
Also in the Bible baptism in water, and baptism in the Holy Spirit were always two separate events. (not always in the same order).
The Bible makes it very clear they are not the same thing.

I wouldn't say speaking in tongues is necessarily a requirement for salvation or baptism in the Holy Spirit, but I don't think you'll find anyone in the new testament
who received the baptism of the Holy Spirit without speaking in tongues after Jesus came to the earth or ascended back to heaven.

Usually people were baptized in water first. The only people I could find who weren't baptized in water first was
Cornelius and his soldiers.

 

[B-A-C]

Speaking in tongues can be faked yes, but so can any part of Christianity. Professing to be a Christian can be fake. Prayer can be fake.
Believing in Jesus can be fake. Even getting baptized in water doesn't always mean anything. Is there any part of Christianity that can't be faked,
at least for a short while?

 

[Stickz]

And the only reason that Cornelius and his soldiers received the Holy Ghost first was because Peter, being hung up on the "Jew-thing" ( remember, that is what Paul got on to him about at one point? ), was going to speak with Gentiles and God showed him that the Gentiles were included in the message of salvation, but Peter still asked the question:

Acts 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Acts 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

I believe there was a good reason for Peter to question about the baptism. It seems apparent to me that baptism usually came first and that is why Peter questioned it. Since Peter was possibly the biggest leader in the body of Christ, and probably had the biggest issue with Gentiles, God showed him that the Gentiles were accepted too by giving them the Holy Ghost. Something Peter recognized right away I might add. Peter will later report it to the others, right?

"Speaking in tongues can be faked yes, but so can any part of Christianity. Professing to be a Christian can be fake. Prayer can be fake.
Believing in Jesus can be fake. Even getting baptized in water doesn't always mean anything. Is there any part of Christianity that can't be faked,
at least for a short while"

I suppose it depends on who you ask. I believe the power of God cannot be faked and someone who cannot recognize the power of God when they see it may very well risk blaspheming the Holy Ghost. Someone faking tongues in front of people who don't know the difference may very well be putting themselves at risk. I believe blasphemy of the Holy Ghost is verbal scorn, verbal disrespect. Faking tongues could fall into that category. Very disrespectful.

 

[B-A-C]

I'm sure if we asked Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Roman Catholics, or Christ Scientists if they were faking, they would all answer you sincerely from their hearts that they are not.
I'm sure if you asked Rick Warren, Joel Osteen, and others if they were false teachers or false prophets, they would tell you that they are not. All of the above have millions of followers.

Faking tongues could possibly be blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, but couldn't calling real tongues that aren't faked a false Spiritual gift just as blasphemous?
I wonder if the Apostle went around to every person in the New Testament who received the Holy Spirit and asked "Are those tongues real or faked?".
I doubt they did anymore than asked every person who was baptized in water "Is that baptism real or faked"?

 

[clark thompson]

Baptism is important other wise Christ would have not commanded us to baptized, but it is not required for salvation.

 

[Stickz]

Yes, BAC, if I were actually calling someone in particular out about their speaking in tongues being faked and they were the real deal then I may be somewhere close to the blaspheming the Holy Ghost ball park, but since I am not I'm not real sure why you seem to be taking it so personally. People post things all the time about false Christians and no one comes in defense, but you post something about people faking speaking in tongues ....

Look, you know as well as I do that pretty much everyone that claims to be a Christian would also claim that they had received the Holy Spirit, right? Probably because they were told by some preacher that they had even if they didn't know it, but we all pretty much seem to agree that not all claiming Christianity are actually a part of the body of Christ so it stands to reason that not all claiming to have received the Holy Ghost can be telling the truth. God is not the author of confusion and there must be a way to know the difference between the true and the not true. Most people that I talk to seem to think it is in the doctrine, whether we say it this way or that, whether we believe in the Trinity or Eternal Salvation, but I'd sooner think that it is in the power of God. The rest is just words.

 

[B-A-C]

Nothing taken personal here. No offense taken. Just asking questions.

Where "I am taking this" is simply when do we actually get the holy Spirit?

Most Christians I know simply assume they are saved, therefore they have the Holy Spirit.
Some say I have been baptized in water, therefore I have the Holy Spirit.

Yet in the Bible I see neither one of those. Every single instance (with the possible exceptions of Elizabeth and John the Baptist who received it before Jesus came to earth)
it was a tangible, separate event (like water baptism) from receiving salvation.

Usually in the Bible we see that someone accepts Jesus (believes in Him).
Then "usually" they get baptized in water. The two notable exception being the thief on the cross and Cornelius and his soldiers.
(however Cornelius and his men did eventually get baptized in water).
Then "usually" they get baptized in the Holy Spirit.

Jesus may be the exception in that He could have received the Holy Spirit at the same time He was baptized in water.

For everyone else, it was two separate events.
For Mary and the apostles, it was two separate events. For the 120 people in the upper room, it was two separate events.
For Saul/Paul it was two separate events. For Cornelius and his men, it was two separate events. For the disciples at Ephesus (acts 19)
it was two separate events. In all of the cases above it involved speaking in tongues. I'm not saying speaking in tongues is required,
but I am saying, at the very least we have to ask for it. ( Luke 11:13; ) separately from just believing in Jesus.

If (as some believe) they receive the Holy Spirit at the time of water baptism, and then they fall away (and we all know people who have fallen away).
Then it must be "they were never really baptized in water", even though we saw them baptized with our own eyes.

If (as some believe) they receive the Holy Spirit simply when we believe in Jesus, and then they fall away (and we all know people who have fallen away)
Then it must be "they never really received Jesus". Even though they say they believe in Jesus with all their hearts.
If this is the case, them there must be something besides faith that is required.

I guess my question is... what is that "something"?

 

[Stickz]

In the Bible, having the Holy Spirit was not a requirement to be saved. Many people received the Holy Spirit after they had been saved a while.

Usually in the Bible we see that someone accepts Jesus (believes in Him).

Are you concluding that being "saved" and "believing" are one and the same thing?

I guess my question is... what is that "something"?

Do you have any guesses, or do you know?

 

[B-A-C]

Are you concluding that being "saved" and "believing" are one and the same thing?

Do you have any guesses, or do you know?

To me belief is only a part of salvation. I don't believe in "faith alone".
I believe repentance and obedience are also required. Do I have to power to live an obedient and repentant life on my own? No.
I believe it requires help from "the Helper". ( John 14:26; John 15:26; John 16:7; ) to live a Godly life. He doesn't force us to live Godly lives,
but He helps us live Godly lives if we let Him.

I don't know if you can be saved without the Holy Spirit (was Cornelius and his men saved before they got the Holy Spirit? or the disciples at Ephesus?).
But if it is possible, I believe it's very very difficult and next to impossible.

So it's back to "when" do we get the Holy Spirit? And how do you know if you have the Holy Spirit?
If you have a tangible gift (miracles, healing, tongues, etc..) then it's easy to know.
If you have the fruit then it might be possible to know, yet none of us bear good fruit 100% without crossing over the flesh occasionally.

I am pretty sure I could point out the fruit of the flesh in many of the people who frequently post here on TJ. (including myself sometimes).
So then... how do we know? In the Bible it was tongues, or fire above their heads, or doing miracles.

I have seen some of these things (tongues and miracles and prophecies) but I don't claim to have those particular gifts myself.
So how we know if we have received the Holy Spirit? Much less, how would we know if someone else has received Him?

 

[RJ]

If (as some believe) they receive the Holy Spirit at the time of water baptism, and then they fall away (and we all know people who have fallen away).

If (as some believe) they receive the Holy Spirit simply when we believe in Jesus, and then they fall away (and we all know people who have fallen away)

Does this "falling away" mean:

• You go from believing with the Holy Spirit in you, but know you have fallen away to the point of all out apostasy and the Holy Spirit leaves from within you?

 

[Stickz]

To me belief is only a part of salvation. I don't believe in "faith alone".

I don't either. I believe there are verses that can be construed in that way, but there are other verses that seem to say differently, and I have faith that I have taken both into account and have drawn the right conclusion from the entire Bible.

In the Bible, having the Holy Spirit was not a requirement to be saved. Many people received the Holy Spirit after they had been saved a while.
Also in the Bible baptism in water, and baptism in the Holy Spirit were always two separate events. (not always in the same order).
The Bible makes it very clear they are not the same thing.

I don't know if you can be saved without the Holy Spirit (was Cornelius and his men saved before they got the Holy Spirit? or the disciples at Ephesus?).
But if it is possible, I believe it's very very difficult and next to impossible.

The emboldened sentences in your two posts are throwing me off. Should this sentence of yours "Many people received the Holy Spirit after they had been saved a while." maybe actually read "Many people received the Holy Spirit after they had believed for a while."?

John 12:42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue: Were the people in this verse "saved" when they believed? And I don't think it fair for us to try to question whether or not they were actually sincere in their "believing"; if they weren't sincere in their believing then I think it would have read something more like, "they wanted to believe" or "they almost believed" so I'm stuck assuming that they had to have really believed but didn't go any farther than that with it. So, there is something else to do after the state of belief; This verse gives us at least one of those things: "confessing" Him.

So how we know if we have received the Holy Spirit?

That is a great question. Perhaps another thread could be started, asking TJ members that feel they have received the Holy Ghost to try to explain why they believe they have received it, just to see what kind of feedback that you get(?).

Much less, how would we know if someone else has received Him?

I'm not absolutely positive that I believe that a person could know if another person actually has the Holy Ghost without actually having it themselves, just from what little bit that I've gathered from scripture on it.

Acts 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

Why would Paul have questioned whether they had received the Holy Ghost or not if it were not something that he could tell was missing? I wanna believe that he only knew because he himself had the Holy Spirit, but I'm just assuming. I do not believe that I have ever received the Holy Spirit. I believe I feel something sometimes but believe that the receiving of the Holy Ghost would be something that would be very noticeable. I've had people try to convince me that I have the Spirit, but do not believe it is something that you would need someone else to tell you that you have.

 

[RJ]

Does this "falling away" mean:

• You go from believing with the Holy Spirit in you, but know you have fallen away to the point of all out apostasy and the Holy Spirit leaves from within you?