Use of Zechariah 12: 10 and Romans 11: 25-26 To Defend Dispensationalism

[tulsa 2011]

Use of Zechariah 12: 10 and Romans 11: 25-26 To Defend Dispensationalism

Some dispensationalists have learned how to use scripture to defend their theology, such as using Zechzariah 12: 10 and Romans 11: 26.

Zechariah 12:10: "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. "

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:" Romans 11: 25-26

We are in the time of the falling away of II Thessalonians 2: 3-6. And this is also the time of the valley of decision of Joel 3: 14-14 and of the threshing floor of Jeremiah 51: 33. The multitude - of those who believe they are Christians - have been deceived into following interpretations of scripture based upon what is called traditions of men (Matthew 15: 3, 9) which is of the flesh, and of the state of the natural man of I Corinthians 2: 14, which does not discern the things of the Spirit. The remnant, on the other hand has the testimony of Jesus Christ (Revelation 12: 17). The remnant has the testimony of Christ at the time the serpent is casting out a flood out of its mouth, meaning the many false prophets of Matthew 24: 11 are being inspired by the dragon to deceive the multitude..

This is a battle between the flesh and the Spirit. A few of the multitude will join the remnant who have the Spirit.

Revelation 11:11: "And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. " They in Revelation 11: 7-10 had been made spiritually dead by the beast out of the bottomless pit, which is again a metaphor, not a single individual man of the flesh, but the spirit of the serpent of Revelation 12: 13, 15, who casts out a flood of lies from his mouth.

Christ's remnant, those who have his testimony, have been revived and made spiritually alive by the Holy Spirit. The battle is between those who have been made spiritually alive - the remnant - and the multitude who remain in doctrines which honor the flesh, that which is literal and physical - and they honor Old Covenant Israel of the flesh.

In Zechariah 12: 10, when we look upon him who we pierced, if this is interpreted by New Testament scripture - Romans 2: 24, 28-29, Romans 9: 6-9, Romans 10: 12, Romans 11: 1-5, 19-22, Galatians 3: 3, 16, 26-29, Galatians 4: 24-26, and Hebrews 10: 9 - it cannot be interpreted as meaning those still in the flesh, honoring the flesh of Old Covenant Israel, are converted in mass to being born again Christians and no longer Jews, by virtue of their flesh. It refers to Christians in the end time who have been made spiritually alive. Grace is poured out upon the Israel of God, not upon Old Covenant Israel of the flesh. When you start from a literalist "hermeneutic," as in dispensationalism, then Israel must always be Old Covenant Israel and the house of David must always be part of the Old Covenant.

Even James, who in Acts 15: 19-21 made some compromises with Paul's doctrine which opposed what is called the Judaizers, the Pharisees who joined the Jerusalem Christians, interpreted Amos 9: 11 and similar Old Testament prophecy on the restoration of Israel to refer to the New Covenant in Christ Jesus after the Cross and after the day of Pentecost.

Amos 9: 11 says "In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen and close up the breaches thereof, and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old." The tabernacle of David was restored at the Cross and at Pentecost in the New Covenant. So why would not Zechariah 10: 12. "I will pour out upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplements..." not also refer to the restoration of Israel in the remnant at Pentecost and beyond - also in Acts 10 when those not of the bloodline were brought in to Israel reborn in Christ?

In Romans 11: 26, Paul is not bound by the dispensationalist "Hermeneutic" which requires consistent literalism. Remember that in Romans 9: 6-9 he says "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel." In Galatians 6: 16 he refers to the "Israel of God," by which he is differentiating this Israel from Israel of the flesh. "That is They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God." Romans 9: 8. And in I Corinthians 10: 18 he says "Behold Israel after the flesh..."

Galatians 3: 3, 16, 26-29 is important for understanding which Israel Paul is talking about in Romans 11: 26.

"Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?.........Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ............
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.27. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.29. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. "

Genesis 13: 16 says "And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbed."

Paul seems to contradict Genesis 13: 16 in saying that there is only one seed from Abraham, which is Jesus Christ. But there is something subtle being taught here, something the person who remains in the spiritual condition of the natural man of I Corinthians 2: 14, who understands only that which is literal, cannot easily see.

You see, dispensationalism begins from the assumption, postulate, or whatever you want to call it, that Old Covenant Israel remains the chosen people of God. Therefore, to be consistent with this starting assumption dispensationalism must not agree with Paul in Galatians 3: 16 that Jesus Christ is the one seed from Abraham. Paul implies being the physical seed from Abraham was done away with as the shadows of the Old Covenant system were done away with (Hebrews 10: 1, Colossians 2: 16-17).

Dispensationalism is thinking only of the flesh, the literal physical DNA from Abraham, such that millions of people who claim descent from Abraham believe they are his physical seed. But Paul in Galatians 3 is talking about that which is spiritual. In the New Covenant that which was shadow, the physical, was fulfilled in Christ, the substance.

"Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ." I Peter 2: 5 Dispensationalism ignores the Old Testament prophecies on the transformation of Old Covenant Israel, which in I Peter 2: 5 became a spiritual house. These Old Testament prophecies are found in II Kings 21: 13, Isaiah 29: 16 and in Jeremiah 18: 1-6.

Just as there is no more temple in which God resides, no more animal sacrifice, no more feast days which people of God must observe and no more circumcision to be done,there is no more Old Covenant Israel of the flesh by descent from Abraham. The shadow of a physical seed - from God's man, Abraham - was fulfilled in the spiritual substance which is Christ Jesus. That which is entirely physical as shadows (Hebrews 10: 1, Colossians 2: 16-17) pointing to the spiritual substance which was to come - Christ - was done away with when the New Covenant replaced the Old Covenant (Hebrews 10: 9) - at the Cross.

Dispensationalism says that Zechariah 12: 10 and Romans 11: 26 mean that in the future, probably in the tribulation, all Old Covenant Israel of the flesh will be saved. Dispensationalism is implying they are saved because of their flesh, their physical descent from Abraham..

"And so all Israel shall be saved" in Romans 11: 26 does not mean all Old Covenant Israel of the flesh are to be saved. It means all who are the elect are of Israel reborn in Christ - the Israel of God - and so all the Israel of God shall be saved.

But when scripture is interpreted by scripture, then Zechariah 12: 10 and Romans 11: 26 can be seen to follow Haggai 2: 9, "The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former, saith the Lord of hosts..." The New Covenant in Christ Jesus is exalted and honored by the interpretation of Zechariah 12: 10 and Romans 11: 26 to mean grace is poured out upon the Israel of God in looking on the one they pierced and in saying all those of the Israel of God shall be saved.

Exodus 4: 22-23, Hosea 11: 1 and Matthew 2: 15 all point to Christ alone as being the one seed to whom the Abrahamic promises were made, which is confirmed in Galatians 3:16. Again, what is said in Exodus 4: 22-23 Hosea 11: 1, and Matthew 2: 15 is subtle, at one point Christ is Israel. "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ."

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

can you condense all that into a a couple sentences? what are you trying to say exactly?

 

[tulsa 2011]

Lewis S. Chafer said that dispensationalism has
"...changed the Bible from being a mass of more or less conflicting
writings into a classified and easily assimilated revelation of both
the earthly and heavenly purposes of God, which reach on into eternity
to come.." Lewis. S. Chafer, Dispensationalism, Bibliotheca Sacra, 93 (October 1936), 410, 416, 446-447

Lewis S. Chafer was one of the main classical dispensationalists, following John Darby and C.I Scofield. He founded the Dallas Theological Seminary. Here Chafer admits that the tradition of men called dispensationalism has "changed the Bible.

Chafer admits that dispensationalists themselves made changes in the Bible. They did not change the text, but they changed the interpretations of some fundamental strands of the Gospel. So, dispensationalist interpretation of the Gospel of Christ is man leaning to his own understanding, contrary to Proverbs 3: 5 - "lean not unto thine own understanding."

In other words, Chafer says, dispensationalism condensed what was thought by the dispensationalists to be a mass of conflicting writings to a more easily understood revelation. By "earthly" he means Old Covenant Israel of the flesh and by"heavenly" he means the Church, or the dispensationalist Church.

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

ok, i appreciate the response. so, please tell me, what are the major differences between the dispensationalist view and your view? and why do you consider your view superior?

 

[B-A-C]

I like the definition from gotquestions.org better than the one from wikipedia.

Dispensationalism is a theological system that recognizes these ages ordained by God to order the affairs of the world. Dispensationalism has two primary distinctives: 1) a consistently literal interpretation of Scripture, especially Bible prophecy and 2) a distinction between Israel and the church in God's program.

I am interchanging the words Jews and Israelites below... but mainly I am talking about biological descendents of Isaac here for the purpose of this discussion.
Fundamentalists and literalists tend to be dispensationalists. In other words, some think the Bible is mostly literal. Other people think it is mostly metaphorical, symbolism, and abstracts.
Like Christianity in general, there seem to be different levels of dispensationalism.

1. There is no difference at all between Israel and "the Gentile church" (saved believers) - in other words we are all saved the same way and have to believe the same things.
2. There is no difference at all between Israel and "the Gentile church" (saved believers) - even though we aren't all saved the same way and don't believe the same things.
3. There is some difference between Israel and the Gentile church - for example God is primarily focusing on the rest of the world right now (the Gentiles) in order to the Israelites jealous
for God's favored attention. Once most of the Gentiles who are ever going to accept Jesus have done so, then God will suddenly open the eyes of the Israelites and turn
them back to Him through Jesus.
4. There is a lot of difference between Israel and the Gentile church, and since Israel as a nation has rejected Jesus for 2,000 or so years, hardly any Israelites will be saved.
5. Only Zionist (Christian) Jews will be saved.
6. All Jews will be saved no matter what.
7. Some Jews will be saved by following Jesus, other Jews will be saved by following the law.
8. Only 144,000 Jews will be saved no matter what.
9. Most Israelites will be turned to Jesus and be saved eventually, the 144,000 is simply a special remnant set apart because they have never lied or been defiled by women.
10. No Israelites will be saved at all.
11. Only the 144,000 Jews will be saved at all. (besides the "the Gentile church").

For example fundamentalists will say There really was a man named Adam and a woman named Eve.
Others will say Adam and Eve weren't really two individual people, but rather an abstract of society at that time.
The argument to many of these verses then becomes something like this...

Rom 5:12; Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--
Rom 5:15; But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
Rom 5:17; For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

If it wasn't Adam who sinned.. but rather an abstract of society, are we then not saved by one man (Jesus) but rather an abstract of society?
Other examples of this is would be...
there is really a being named Satan/Lucifer
There is not really a specific being named Satan but this is generalization term for all evil caused in the world.
The beast really will be an individual man, the harlot really will be a specific city.
The beast is not a man, but rather a military/government entity made up of many people,
The harlot is not a specific city, but an abstract of all civilization during the tribulation period.

I am using some extremes here, and there is some middle ground in some cases, but hopefully this helps.

Verses of question here are Romans 10:19-21; and almost all of Romans 11; (in particular verses 25 and 26)
Also Romans 9:27; Rev 14;1-5; Rev 7:4-8; this is by no means an exhaustive list, but a start.

 

[tulsa 2011]

To condense the interpretation of a number of scriptures into two or three sentences is to change that interpretation.

And some of these scriptures are subtle in meaning, Look at Galatians 3: 3, 16, 26-29, for example. "
"Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?.......Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ..........For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

Dispensationalism:
"Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne so that in eternity, '...never the twain, Israel and church, shall meet." Lewis S. Chafer, Systematic Theology (Dallas, Dallas Seminary Press, 1975), Vol. 4. pp. 315-323..

Charles C. Ryrie (born 1925) says:
"basic promise of Dispensationalism is two purposes of God expressed
in the formation of two peoples who maintain their distinction
throughout eternity." Charles C. Ryrie, Dispensationalism Today,1966, pp.44-45.

Paul in Galatians 3: 3, 16, 26-29 does not say in an explicit way that Israel of the flesh is no longer a people of God. But what does he say there? He says not to begin in the spirit and then go back to the flesh. He says Christ is the one seed of Abraham, that there is no difference between Jew and Gentile, and all in Christ are the seed of Abraham, which means they are also the seed of God. He does not say that all Old Covenant Israel are now the seed of Abraham and are still the chosen people.

In Romans 9: 6-9 Paul says "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel...That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God..."

Interpret scripture by relevant scripture, not by a system made up by men. Galatians 3: 3, 16, 26-29 and Romans 9: 6-8 are not written in the language of metaphor. The meanings are there to a great extent in the texts, and when dispensationalism says God now has two peoples, Old Covenant Israel and the Church, this does not agree with that meaning - unless you apply a method of interpretation other than using scripture to interpret scripture.

Dispensationalists will often side step texts in view and try to bring up other texts that, they imply, say something the opposite. But deal with these two texts.

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

the first thing i will say is that Adam and Eve are real historical people, and that the book of Genesis is real historical, literal fact. the entire bible is based upon that foundation. besides, the only people who reject a literal Genesis are those who have been persuaded by satan himself. did God really say? Yes, God really said. now be gone satan. (I am not talking to either of you, but in general)



the next thing i would say is that i do not know the answer to this question about how people got saved before Christ compared to how people got saved after Christ. but the one thing we know for certain is that it has always been and always will be grace through faith. now, it may be that before Christ people were permitted to have faith in God, and not specifically the coming Redeemer Messiah. I see two biblical positions on this, 1) only those people with a revelation from God about the future redeemer-Messiah were saved, 2) only those people who worshiped the God of Israel were saved.

But now that Christ has been revealed, I do not believe that anyone can be saved by simply believing in the God of the old testament. If someone professes to worship the God of the old testament but does not accept Christ, then they demonstrate their rejection of the God of the old testament by their rejection of Christ.

 

[tulsa 2011]

Dispensationalist hermeneutics won't allow dispensationalists to get past Abraham’s physical descendants to see that it is the Israel of God that lives forever.

Christians read about their spiritual identity as the Seed of Abraham. (Galatians 3: 3, 16, 26-:29). And they read about their new status in the Commonwealth of Israel. (Ephesians.2:12-13) -
And they read about themselves as the wild olive branch grafted into the olive tree. (Romans.11), which is the Israel of God - And they are aware that this olive tree represents Israel.

But even after they read these scriptures they still fail to appreciate their connection to Israel. If they have the mind of Christ in them (Philippians 2: 5) and are born again (John 3: 1-7) and have become new creatures in Christ (II Corinthians 5: 17), then they are in union with Israel through Christ.

So why are Christians still unable to “see” this, their new identity in Israel?
As lost Gomer, (Hosea) which is lost Israel, those who call themselves the Church, are in that state of blindness.in Romans 11: 25.

The dispensationalist hermeneutic will not allow dispensationalists to see that Israel in Romans 11: 25 could refer to the Israel of God, as they cannot understand that in Romans 11: 26 all Israel that will be saved are all of the elect, which are the Israel of God (Galatians 6: 16). They are in the strong delusion of II Thessalonians 2 10-12 - because they have not received the love of the truth that they could be saved, they believe a lie.This strong delusion exists in the dispensationalist churches, where dispensationalism teaches that God now has two peoples, Old Covenant Israel and the Church. But its not limited to the dispensationalists.

The lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matthew 15: 24), applied to Old Covenant Israel at the time Christ appeared. But by use of I Corinthians 10: 11 - "all these things...are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world have come" -. now the lost sheep of the House of Israel are the multitude in the churches. A few of them are waking up to the understanding that they are Israel.

 

[DHC]

Hello Tulsa.
I am rather curious about your interpretation, you stated the following idea in your last post.

"And they read about their new status in the Commonwealth of Israel. (Ephesians.2:12-13)

In particular I would like to concentrate on your interpretation of the text from Paul's letter to
the Ephesians, which you have quoted above Tulsa. So I have printed your reference to the text
from Ephesians below, plus two additional lines from the same text for some added context.
I am curious in how you support the idea that the Gentiles become members of the Commonwealth
of Israel.

Ephesians 2
11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision”
by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands
12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth
of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood
of Christ.
14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one

You apparently see that the Gentiles are included into the Commonwealth of Israel in this text.
I do not see that your interpretation of the text is sound Tulsa. All I can see in the text you cited
above is that the Gentiles 'have been brought near' and both groups (Gentiles and Israelites)
are one in Christ.

May I ask how you support your idea that the Gentiles become members of the Commonwealth
of Israel from the cited text? If you quote from the text to support an idea, then text must clearly
support the idea that is proposed Tulsa.

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

Heres my take, for what its worth.

Even though I do not believe that Jews can be saved apart from faith in Jesus Christ as their God and Savior, i still think that God does take special care of the lost sheep of Israel, and of Israel and a people. We see that the end time prophecies concerning the re-establishment of the state of Israel have come true, and that is validation that when the new testament speaks of Israel it speaks of the old covenant Jews. As it stands now, only the remnant will be saved, and the way I interpret that is that at the very end of this age, during the great tribulation, God will reveal Himself to the people of Israel and a small portion of them will turn to Jesus in faith and be saved.

I think it would be foolish to say that Israel no longer has a place in God's plans. They are still the chosen people, and they still play a huge part in the course of this age's events. I think it would also be foolish to consider anyone saved, Jew or not, who does not trust in Jesus Christ as their God and their Savior.

 

[tulsa 2011]

Dispensationalism only recognizes Old Covenant Israel. For dispensationalism there is no Israel of God (Galatians 6: 16), which is everyone who is of the elect. Therefore, for dispensationalism, Ephesians 2: 11:21, or any other text, cannot be seen as saying those not of the physical bloodline from Abraham become part of the Israel of God, by the blood of Christ. And Paul in Romans 9: 6-9 and in Galatians 3: 3, 16, 26-29 does not support the dispensatrionmalist doctrine that Old Covenant Israel, by their physical descent from Abraham now exists as the chosen people, or as a people of God alongside the dispensationalist church. And the two peoples of God doctrine is shown to be false by John 10: 16, Romans 12: 4-5 and Ephesians 4: 4, and there may be other scriptures saying there is only one Body of Christ, or elect group, not two.

Dispensationalism does not acknowledge the Old Testament prophecies on the transformation of Old Covenant Israel - II Kings, 21: 13, Isaiah 29: 16, and Jeremiah 18: 1-6. And Hosea 2: 23 has to be included. This is part of the authority for Paul saying in Romans 2: 28-29 that the flesh no longer defines what a Jew is, and that "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel" in Romans 9: 6-8. It is also part of his authority for saying in Galatians 3: 3, 16, 26-29 that it is foolish to rely on the flesh, that Christ is the one seed from Abraham and that all in Christ, whether Jew or not, are Abraham's seed and heirs of the promise.

Separating Israel from the Church and claiming Old Covenant Israel is still a people of God is false. It is another Gospel and those in it have another Jesus.

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

i think what might be missing here is a common set of definitions. when old testament prophecies of the transformation of Israel talk about the law being written on hearts, it is certainly talking about the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ and those who are born-again into the kingdom of God. and I would agree that the Israel of God is real, that it is made up only of born again believers in Jesus Christ the Savior. but i would posit that there has always been two distinct peoples: the Israel of God and the Israel of flesh. The Israel of God would have consisted of the prophets, those were saved by faith during the old covenant, and all those who are born again in Christ Jesus. The Israel of flesh are all those who acknowledge God by way of allegiance to his prophet Moses, and who seek justification by way of the law of Moses. No one in the Israel of the flesh will ever be saved unless they come into the Israel of God - and i think that is a contrast that The Holy Spirit through Paul is making in galatians 6: 16. That The Israel of God is different from the Israel of flesh. But that doesnt mean that the Israel of flesh, although unsaved, does not have a special place in God's plan. We see throughout history the fact that they do indeed play a big part in his plan. setting aside the bible for a moment, just look at the state of Israel and how it has miraculously survived this past half century. tell me that God is not working for Israel today and you tell me a lie!

 

[DHC]

Dispensationalism only recognizes Old Covenant Israel. For dispensationalism there is no Israel of God (Galatians 6: 16), which is everyone who is of the elect. Therefore, for dispensationalism, Ephesians 2: 11:21, or any other text, cannot be seen as saying those not of the physical bloodline from Abraham become part of the Israel of God, by the blood of Christ. And Paul in Romans 9: 6-9 and in Galatians 3: 3, 16, 26-29 does not support the dispensatrionmalist doctrine that Old Covenant Israel, by their physical descent from Abraham now exists as the chosen people, or as a people of God alongside the dispensationalist church. And the two peoples of God doctrine is shown to be false by John 10: 16, Romans 12: 4-5 and Ephesians 4: 4, and there may be other scriptures saying there is only one Body of Christ, or elect group, not two.

Dispensationalism does not acknowledge the Old Testament prophecies on the transformation of Old Covenant Israel - II Kings, 21: 13, Isaiah 29: 16, and Jeremiah 18: 1-6. And Hosea 2: 23 has to be included. This is part of the authority for Paul saying in Romans 2: 28-29 that the flesh no longer defines what a Jew is, and that "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel" in Romans 9: 6-8. It is also part of his authority for saying in Galatians 3: 3, 16, 26-29 that it is foolish to rely on the flesh, that Christ is the one seed from Abraham and that all in Christ, whether Jew or not, are Abraham's seed and heirs of the promise.

Separating Israel from the Church and claiming Old Covenant Israel is still a people of God is false. It is another Gospel and those in it have another Jesus.

Hello Tulsa.

You said.

"For dispensationalism there is no Israel of God (Galatians 6: 16), which is everyone who is of the elect."

You need to present the scripture that states that Gentiles become members of the Commonwealth of
Israel. Your offering the idea that Gentiles become Israelites in a Commonwealth of Israel.

Your quotation below does not infer that Gentiles become Israelites, Tulsa.

Galatians 6
15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.
16 And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

Paul states that a new creation in Christ is what matters. Then Paul simply says peace and mercy
be on the Israel of God. Paul does not connect the Gentiles with the Israel of God in these two
lines. Once again Tulsa you need to cite the scripture that states that Gentiles become members
of the Commonwealth of Israel. If you present an ideology on Talk Jesus, then you are required
to support the ideology with the scripture.

 

[tulsa 2011]

"Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12. That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13. But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15. Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16. And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17. And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20. And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21. In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22. In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit."

Verse 12 says those not of the physical bloodline of Old Covenant Israel were aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, but are made close by the blood of Christ. But because dispensationalism says that Israel must always be Old Covenant Israel, therefore its followers cannot see the meaning of being made close. The subject is the commonwealth of Israel and being made close must mean becoming close to the commonwealth of Israel.,

In Romans 11: 17 those who accept Christ but are not from the physical bloodline of Old Covenant Israel are grafted in to the good olive tree. Verse 16 says the root is holy, that is, because the root is holy, the branches are also holy. The root is Jesus Christ. The root cannot be Old Covenant Israel. But by use of other scriptures, especially John 3: 1-6, on those of Old Covenant Israel having to become born again in Christ to be in the kingdom of God, the good olive tree is Israel reborn in Jesus Christ, the Israel of God of Galatians 6: 16.

Again, the huge problem in dispensationalism is its method of interpretation, which is called its "hermeneutics" in the seminaries. In dispensationalism, you start with a few basic assumptions, that God now has two peoples, Old Covenant Israel and the Church, and that scripture must always be seen as literal, and according to that starting assumption Israel in scripture must always be Old Covenant Israel and cannot be any other. Dispensationmalism is a kind of circular and self-fulfilling system, which for its followers simplifies a mass of complex and not understood scripture that is intended to be understood by those with the Holy Spirit.

Here is what the Bible says about how we are to interpret scripture:

"Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.10. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:" Isaiah 28: 9-10

Isaiah 28: 9-10 means that first of all those who want to understand scripture must have grown up spiritually to some extent and then they are to take meanings from various scriptures and put them together. This is interpreting scripture by scripture. Paul gets into this in I Corinthians 2: 13-15.

"Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man."

You must be born again to compare spiritual with spiritual and to discern things of the Spirit.

 

[RJ]

Use of Zechariah 12: 10 and Romans 11: 25-26 To Defend Dispensationalism

Some dispensationalists have learned how to use scripture to defend their theology, such as using Zechzariah 12: 10 and Romans 11: 26.

Zechariah 12:10: "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. "

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:" Romans 11: 25-26

We are in the time of the falling away of II Thessalonians 2: 3-6. And this is also the time of the valley of decision of Joel 3: 14-14 and of the threshing floor of Jeremiah 51: 33. The multitude - of those who believe they are Christians - have been deceived into following interpretations of scripture based upon what is called traditions of men (Matthew 15: 3, 9) which is of the flesh, and of the state of the natural man of I Corinthians 2: 14, which does not discern the things of the Spirit. The remnant, on the other hand has the testimony of Jesus Christ (Revelation 12: 17). The remnant has the testimony of Christ at the time the serpent is casting out a flood out of its mouth, meaning the many false prophets of Matthew 24: 11 are being inspired by the dragon to deceive the multitude..

This is a battle between the flesh and the Spirit. A few of the multitude will join the remnant who have the Spirit.

Revelation 11:11: "And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. " They in Revelation 11: 7-10 had been made spiritually dead by the beast out of the bottomless pit, which is again a metaphor, not a single individual man of the flesh, but the spirit of the serpent of Revelation 12: 13, 15, who casts out a flood of lies from his mouth.

Christ's remnant, those who have his testimony, have been revived and made spiritually alive by the Holy Spirit. The battle is between those who have been made spiritually alive - the remnant - and the multitude who remain in doctrines which honor the flesh, that which is literal and physical - and they honor Old Covenant Israel of the flesh.

In Zechariah 12: 10, when we look upon him who we pierced, if this is interpreted by New Testament scripture - Romans 2: 24, 28-29, Romans 9: 6-9, Romans 10: 12, Romans 11: 1-5, 19-22, Galatians 3: 3, 16, 26-29, Galatians 4: 24-26, and Hebrews 10: 9 - it cannot be interpreted as meaning those still in the flesh, honoring the flesh of Old Covenant Israel, are converted in mass to being born again Christians and no longer Jews, by virtue of their flesh. It refers to Christians in the end time who have been made spiritually alive. Grace is poured out upon the Israel of God, not upon Old Covenant Israel of the flesh. When you start from a literalist "hermeneutic," as in dispensationalism, then Israel must always be Old Covenant Israel and the house of David must always be part of the Old Covenant.

Even James, who in Acts 15: 19-21 made some compromises with Paul's doctrine which opposed what is called the Judaizers, the Pharisees who joined the Jerusalem Christians, interpreted Amos 9: 11 and similar Old Testament prophecy on the restoration of Israel to refer to the New Covenant in Christ Jesus after the Cross and after the day of Pentecost.

Amos 9: 11 says "In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen and close up the breaches thereof, and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old." The tabernacle of David was restored at the Cross and at Pentecost in the New Covenant. So why would not Zechariah 10: 12. "I will pour out upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplements..." not also refer to the restoration of Israel in the remnant at Pentecost and beyond - also in Acts 10 when those not of the bloodline were brought in to Israel reborn in Christ?

In Romans 11: 26, Paul is not bound by the dispensationalist "Hermeneutic" which requires consistent literalism. Remember that in Romans 9: 6-9 he says "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel." In Galatians 6: 16 he refers to the "Israel of God," by which he is differentiating this Israel from Israel of the flesh. "That is They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God." Romans 9: 8. And in I Corinthians 10: 18 he says "Behold Israel after the flesh..."

Galatians 3: 3, 16, 26-29 is important for understanding which Israel Paul is talking about in Romans 11: 26.

"Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?.........Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ............
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.27. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.29. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. "

Genesis 13: 16 says "And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbed."

Paul seems to contradict Genesis 13: 16 in saying that there is only one seed from Abraham, which is Jesus Christ. But there is something subtle being taught here, something the person who remains in the spiritual condition of the natural man of I Corinthians 2: 14, who understands only that which is literal, cannot easily see.

You see, dispensationalism begins from the assumption, postulate, or whatever you want to call it, that Old Covenant Israel remains the chosen people of God. Therefore, to be consistent with this starting assumption dispensationalism must not agree with Paul in Galatians 3: 16 that Jesus Christ is the one seed from Abraham. Paul implies being the physical seed from Abraham was done away with as the shadows of the Old Covenant system were done away with (Hebrews 10: 1, Colossians 2: 16-17).

Dispensationalism is thinking only of the flesh, the literal physical DNA from Abraham, such that millions of people who claim descent from Abraham believe they are his physical seed. But Paul in Galatians 3 is talking about that which is spiritual. In the New Covenant that which was shadow, the physical, was fulfilled in Christ, the substance.

"Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ." I Peter 2: 5 Dispensationalism ignores the Old Testament prophecies on the transformation of Old Covenant Israel, which in I Peter 2: 5 became a spiritual house. These Old Testament prophecies are found in II Kings 21: 13, Isaiah 29: 16 and in Jeremiah 18: 1-6.

Just as there is no more temple in which God resides, no more animal sacrifice, no more feast days which people of God must observe and no more circumcision to be done,there is no more Old Covenant Israel of the flesh by descent from Abraham. The shadow of a physical seed - from God's man, Abraham - was fulfilled in the spiritual substance which is Christ Jesus. That which is entirely physical as shadows (Hebrews 10: 1, Colossians 2: 16-17) pointing to the spiritual substance which was to come - Christ - was done away with when the New Covenant replaced the Old Covenant (Hebrews 10: 9) - at the Cross.

Dispensationalism says that Zechariah 12: 10 and Romans 11: 26 mean that in the future, probably in the tribulation, all Old Covenant Israel of the flesh will be saved. Dispensationalism is implying they are saved because of their flesh, their physical descent from Abraham..

"And so all Israel shall be saved" in Romans 11: 26 does not mean all Old Covenant Israel of the flesh are to be saved. It means all who are the elect are of Israel reborn in Christ - the Israel of God - and so all the Israel of God shall be saved.

But when scripture is interpreted by scripture, then Zechariah 12: 10 and Romans 11: 26 can be seen to follow Haggai 2: 9, "The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former, saith the Lord of hosts..." The New Covenant in Christ Jesus is exalted and honored by the interpretation of Zechariah 12: 10 and Romans 11: 26 to mean grace is poured out upon the Israel of God in looking on the one they pierced and in saying all those of the Israel of God shall be saved.

Exodus 4: 22-23, Hosea 11: 1 and Matthew 2: 15 all point to Christ alone as being the one seed to whom the Abrahamic promises were made, which is confirmed in Galatians 3:16. Again, what is said in Exodus 4: 22-23 Hosea 11: 1, and Matthew 2: 15 is subtle, at one point Christ is Israel. "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ."

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

So Tulsa, your main argument is that all prophecies concerning israel are actually concerning christians, and that God has absolutely no special treatment for the modern state of israel or those who honor the old covenant?

I am a bit confused.. can you please just take the time to write a sentence or two, without using scripture, just to make your point known.

(i am not saying that you should not base your opinion on scripture, i just want to know in your own words what it is your getting at. because up until now i see a whole lot of words but not much in the way of a direct thesis statement)

 

[DHC]

Hello Tulsa.

Here is what you said in your previous post (#13) printed below, just to make sure that you are aware of what you stated.

"Verse 12 says those not of the physical bloodline of Old Covenant Israel were aliens from the
commonwealth of Israel, but are made close by the blood of Christ. But because dispensationalism
says that Israel must always be Old Covenant Israel, therefore its followers cannot see the meaning of
being made close. The subject is the commonwealth of Israel and being made close must mean becoming
close to the commonwealth of Israel."

If you wish to discover what the subject of any sentence is, then Tulsa, check which noun the verbs in the
sentence are referring to. The sentence you cited in your last post was verse twelve, taken from the
second chapter of Paul's letter to the Ephesians.

May I inform you that verse twelve, which you cited Tulsa, is not actually a sentence at all. The actual sentence in the
text actually consists of both clauses, the clauses are verses eleven and twelve. Here I have printed the two verses
which form the whole sentence in the text below.

11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the
so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands; 12 remember that you were at that
time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise,
having no hope and without God in the world.

Using the rules of grammar to determine the actual subject of the sentence (verses 11 & 12) above. The subject of the
sentence above is the noun of course, the noun that the verbs are referring to, is in fact 'the Gentiles'. The subject of the
whole sentence is certainly not the Commonwealth of Israel, you stand corrected at this point.

You would be exhibiting a poor understanding of English grammar if you persist with your idea.

 

[tulsa 2011]

"Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Becoming foolish by returning to the flesh after having known something of the Spirit is not limited here to being convinced by the Judaizers that they, the Galatians, not of the Old Covenant bloodline, must be circumcised to be saved. Returning to the flesh also means accepting the doctrine of the Judaizers that they, the Judaizers, are still the chosen people because of their flesh, their descent from Abraham.

"That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."

In the remaking of Old Covenant Israel, as foretold in Jeremiah 18: 1-6 - the first vessel was marred and so God made it again another vessel that seemed good - those not of the physical bloodline of Old Covenant Israel were brought into Israel remade as equals, as foretold by Hosea 2: 23.

But - in Galatians 3:3, 14, 16, 26-29 that very foundation of the identity of those who were in Old Covenant Israel is made part of the remaking of Israel by God.

Therefore, the concept of the Gentiles, translated from the Greek ethnos, meaning peoples, nations or ethnic groups of people, is no longer a distinction of identity for those in Christ. As Paul says in Acts 17: 26 "and hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth."

I know that even Tyndale in his 1526 English translation of the New Testament translated ethnos as Gentiles, though he spelled it as getyl. Tyndale also used Gentiles in Ephesians 2: 11 and in Romans 11: 25.

Use of Gentiles emphasizes the difference between those of the bloodline of Old Covenant Israel and all those not of the bloodline. But to those who do not fully know the meanings of Galatians 3, Romans 2: 28-29 and Romans 9: 6-8 in relation to the remaking of Israel, the emphasis upon that distinction can contribute to the continuation of the false doctrine that after the Cross there remains such a distinction.

"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ."

For those who believe that the people of Old Covenant Israel remain now a people of God - the chosen people - Paul is contradicting Genesis 26: 4, "And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed."

But in the remaking of Old Covenant Israel the physical bloodline from Abraham to a multitude of people no loner exists. It, like animal sacrifice, was a shadow of a spiritual substance to come, which was fulfilled in Christ. Christ became the one spiritual seed of Abraham, though in fulfilling and ending the physical bloodline, Christ was also a physical descendant from Abraham.

Hebrews 7: 22 says in Christ we have a better testament and Hebrews 8: 6 says Christ is the mediator of a better covenant.

Haggai 2: 9 tells us that "The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former."

And Hebrews 10: 9 says "He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second." Christ took away the Old Covenant so that he could establish the New Covenant, as a better covenant.

Paul talks about the distinction between those of the bloodline of Old Covenant Israel and those not of the bloodline in Ephesians 2: 11, where the King James translates ethnos as Gentiles.
Then in Ephesians 2: 15-19 Paul writes about the abolishing of that distinction between Gentiles and those of the physical bloodline of Old Covenant Israel.

This abolishing that the distinction between "Gentile" and "Jew" in Christ is a fundamental doctrine of the Gospel of Christ. To insist that somehow that distinction was not absolutely abolished in Christ is to teach another Gospel. To compromise the absolute truth of the word of God and say by the physical bloodline from Abraham Old Covenant Israel now exists as a people of God - the chosen people - is to promote the spirit of anti-Christ of I John 4: 3. This is because Talmudic Judaism, the religion of the Pharisees, is specific in pointing to Jesus Christ, the one who walked the earth, and totally rejecting him as God and savior.

Finally, Galatians 3: 26-29 says there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile in Christ, and that all who are in Christ are the seed of Abraham, which implies all in Christ are the seed of God. There is no chosen people based on a physical bloodline from Abraham.

In Ephesians 2: 13 "ye" refers back to the ethnos, translated as Gentiles, who were before far off are made close by the blood of Christ.

And then verses 14-19 are about Christ having abolished the distinction between Jew and Gentile in himself, making them one body in verse 16. This contradicts the dispensationalist doctrine that Old Covenant Israel still exists as a people of God. There is one elect group, not two (John 10: 16, Romans 12: 4-5 and Ephesians 4: 4). The certain implication is that the ethnos being made close by the blood of Christ means they join Israel. But other scriptures have to be used to show that this Israel to which the believing ethnos are joined is not Old Covenant Israel but Israel reborn in Christ (John 3: 1-6),Galatians 6: 16, Romans 9: 6-8, etc.

In commenting on Ephesians 2: 14-16 Calvin says "It is evident, too, that Paul is here treating exclusively of the ceremonial law; for the moral law is not a wall of partition separating us from the Jews...........This passage affords the means of refuting an erroneous view held by some, that circumcision and all the ancient rites, though they are not binding on the Gentiles, are in force at the present day upon the Jews. On this principle there would still be a middle wall of partition between us, which is proved to be false."

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

"For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.” “This is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.” From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." Romans 11:25-29

 

[DHC]

In commenting on Ephesians 2: 14-16 Calvin says "It is evident, too, that Paul is here treating exclusively of the ceremonial law; for the moral law is not a wall of partition separating us from the Jews...........This passage affords the means of refuting an erroneous view held by some, that circumcision and all the ancient rites, though they are not binding on the Gentiles, are in force at the present day upon the Jews. On this principle there would still be a middle wall of partition between us, which is proved to be false."

Hello Tulsa.

If you do not mind Tulsa can you explain what Calvin actually is saying.