Are You Saved By Grace or Faith Alone

[norapture]

(John 15:4-14) “Remain in me, as I in you. As a branch cannot bear fruit all by itself, unless it remains part of the vine, neither can you unless you remain in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me, with me in him, bears fruit in plenty; for cut off from me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a branch -- and withers; these branches are collected and thrown on the fire and are burnt. If you remain in me and my words remain in you, you may ask for whatever you please and you will get it. It is to the glory of my Father that you should bear much fruit and be my disciples. I have loved you just as the Father has loved me. Remain in my love. If you keep my commandments you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and remain in his love. I have told you this so that my own joy may be in you and your joy be complete. This is my commandment: love one another, as I have loved you. No one can have greater love than to lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends, if you do what I command you.”


Did Jesus say where that fire is? If one believes it is Hell then is that not only an assumption?

John may ask you if , these branchs (people)had eternal life, if there names are written in the book of life?

 

[DHC]

Scripture does not say, but Hebrews gives us a clue.
(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. -------------“
You see people who have been given the knowledge of the truth have proclaimed Jesus name, and have been baptized in his name.
They were saved but are not going to heaven.
Salvation may be a free gift, but Jesus told us what it takes to go with him to heaven, and he is not giving out free passes.
(Matthew 7:21-23) “It is not those who say to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of Heaven but the person who does the will of My Father in Heaven. When the day comes many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?’ Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!”
Also the people in the above scripture proclaimed Jesus’ name, and is that not all scripture says one has to do to be saved?

Hello John.

I was reading your post and I must admit I was rather surprised at what you wrote.

They were saved but are not going to heaven.

This seems to be a contradiction.

Salvation may be a free gift, but Jesus told us what it takes to go with him to heaven, and he is not giving out free passes.

Another contradiction John, either salvation is free or it is not, either one or the other.

(Matthew 7:21-23) “It is not those who say to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of Heaven but the person who does
the will of My Father in Heaven. When the day comes many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, cast out
demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?’ Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me,
you evil men!”

What claim were these folk making to the Lord?

Why did the Lord not know them?

Also the people in the above scripture proclaimed Jesus’ name, and is that not all scripture says one has to do to be saved?

Saying the name of Jesus does not mean salvation of course, believing in the Gospel of Jesus Christ most certainly does mean salvation.
One not only confesses Jesus but also believes in Jesus from the heart!

Romans 10:10
for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

 

[Johnlove]

Hello John.

I was reading your post and I must admit I was rather surprised at what you wrote.

This seems to be a contradiction.

Another contradiction John, either salvation is free or it is not, either one or the other.

What claim were these folk making to the Lord?

Why did the Lord not know them?

Saying the name of Jesus does not mean salvation of course, believing in the Gospel of Jesus Christ most certainly does mean salvation.
One not only confesses Jesus but also believes in Jesus from the heart!

Romans 10:10
for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

 

[Johnlove]

Show us where in scripture that saved means one will go to heaven.

Hello John.

I was reading your post and I must admit I was rather surprised at what you wrote.

This seems to be a contradiction.

Another contradiction John, either salvation is free or it is not, either one or the other.

What claim were these folk making to the Lord?

Why did the Lord not know them?

Saying the name of Jesus does not mean salvation of course, believing in the Gospel of Jesus Christ most certainly does mean salvation.
One not only confesses Jesus but also believes in Jesus from the heart!

Romans 10:10
for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Show us where in scripture that saved means one will go to heaven.

(Matthew 7:21-23) “It is not those who say to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of Heaven but the person who does the will of My Father in Heaven. When the day comes many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?’ Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!”


I am new to this forum, and don’t understand how to use the multi quote. Will do my best to respond to you anyway.


Who has any claim on Jesus?


The people Jesus was speaking to were people who had walked in the gifts of the Holy Spirit. No one can cast out demons in Jesus name unless he or she has the Holy Spirit.


But that was not the point of that scripture. The point is that no one will go to heaven with Jesus that does not DO the will of the Father in Heaven.


God chooses not to know those who do not obey him. Jesus told us who he chooses to know.



(John 14: 23) “Anyone who loves me will keep my word and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make a home in him.”

If one’s belief means he or she is a Spiritual Christian meaning they walk as Jesus Walked, then they will go to heaven. Being sin free is being righteous.



(1 John 2:6) “But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did”

 

[Spockrates]

Yes.I feel there is not enough information to form an opinion.
I have not read what you were discussing with the others so I can see many options, connections and possibilities at this point.

Yes, I have to agree. We know that:

 

[Spockrates]

Yes.I feel there is not enough information to form an opinion.
I have not read what you were discussing with the others so I can see many options, connections and possibilities at this point.

Agreed. So it's logical to find a more clear passage about this faith, to see if it is given as a gift or as a reward. How about this one?

4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. 5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6 There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.

7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit,10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.

(1 Corinthians 12)
​

This is the only passage of scripture I could find at BibleGateway.com that has both the word gifts and faith. But notice that Paul says some things the Spirit gives are gifts and some things are service or workings. He then goes on to speak of "gifts of healing," but he does not say faith is also a gift.

Still, one might interpret the biblical passage to mean that all of these works and services are gifts. Another might disagree, and we might have to admit, as we have already admitted that there in not enough information to say either way. Faith might be a gift. Then again, it might not. To say that it is, without more convincing evidence, would be illogical. Don't you think?

 

[Spockrates]

Show us where in scripture that saved means one will go to heaven.

Show us where in scripture that saved means one will go to heaven.

(Matthew 7:21-23) “It is not those who say to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of Heaven but the person who does the will of My Father in Heaven. When the day comes many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?’ Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!”


I am new to this forum, and don’t understand how to use the multi quote. Will do my best to respond to you anyway.


Who has any claim on Jesus?


The people Jesus was speaking to were people who had walked in the gifts of the Holy Spirit. No one can cast out demons in Jesus name unless he or she has the Holy Spirit.


But that was not the point of that scripture. The point is that no one will go to heaven with Jesus that does not DO the will of the Father in Heaven.


God chooses not to know those who do not obey him. Jesus told us who he chooses to know.



(John 14: 23) “Anyone who loves me will keep my word and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make a home in him.”

If one’s belief means he or she is a Spiritual Christian meaning they walk as Jesus Walked, then they will go to heaven. Being sin free is being righteous.



(1 John 2:6) “But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did”

John:

I think you are doing well for your first time on the forum. It's not necessary to do a multi-quote, but if you want to know how, type [ QUOTE ] with no spaces at the beginning of the text you want to quote and [ /QUOTE ] with no spaces at the end. (I'm adding the spaces so they show up in this reply.) Every [ QUOTE ] tag must have a corresponding [ /QUOTE ] tag.

Type your responses after a [ /QUOTE ] tag and before the next [ QUOTE ] tag.

 

[Johnlove]

John:

I think you are doing well for your first time on the forum. It's not necessary to do a multi-quote, but if you want to know how, type [ QUOTE ] with no spaces at the beginning of the text you want to quote and [ /QUOTE ] with no spaces at the end. (I'm adding the spaces so they show up in this reply.) Every [ QUOTE ] tag must have a corresponding [ /QUOTE ] tag.

Type your responses after a [ /QUOTE ] tag and before the next [ QUOTE ] tag.

Thank you!

 

[Spockrates]

Thank you!

No problem!

 

[Spockrates]

Show us where in scripture that saved means one will go to heaven.

Show us where in scripture that saved means one will go to heaven.

(Matthew 7:21-23) “It is not those who say to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of Heaven but the person who does the will of My Father in Heaven. When the day comes many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?’ Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!”

I am new to this forum, and don’t understand how to use the multi quote. Will do my best to respond to you anyway.

Who has any claim on Jesus?

The people Jesus was speaking to were people who had walked in the gifts of the Holy Spirit. No one can cast out demons in Jesus name unless he or she has the Holy Spirit.

But that was not the point of that scripture. The point is that no one will go to heaven with Jesus that does not DO the will of the Father in Heaven.

God chooses not to know those who do not obey him. Jesus told us who he chooses to know.

(John 14: 23) “Anyone who loves me will keep my word and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make a home in him.”

If one’s belief means he or she is a Spiritual Christian meaning they walk as Jesus Walked, then they will go to heaven. Being sin free is being righteous.

(1 John 2:6) “But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did”

JohnLove:

I find your idea fascinating that one's being saved does not necessarily guarantee admission into heaven. It's a concept worthy of thoughtful consideration by people like myself who know what I know might not be true.

I'm thinking one might be saved yet not heaven-bound under these circumstances:

1. The person saved today loses her salvation tomorrow and then dies, going to hell.
2. The person saved today keeps her salvation till the day she dies, but goes to another destination besides heaven, such as the purgatory taught by Catholics.
3. The person saved today ceases to exist upon death, and so goes nowhere.
4. Some other possibility.

If you want, please tell me what you thing might be the truth so I may consider the merits of your idea to see if it should become my idea, too.

 

[Spockrates]

JohnLove:

But if you don't care to discuss it with me, that's OK. You do seem to have your hands full answering different replies to your posts.

 

[RJ]

So you disagree with Socrates?

No, I disagree with the apparent affinity you have with him and your carry-over of this into TJ!

 

[RJ]

Why do you say that?

Look Spock, you said this:i "in both cases it speaks of God giving people faith. Would you say the words quoted make it certain that such faith is a gift? Or would you say, as you said of the $100.00 I received, that you would need more information before you could definitively say it is gift and not a reward?"
These are your words, not mine. You even insinuate that God's Grace is either a gift or a reward, and this is mocking God's salvation by grace and the entire concept of his New Covenant and reveals your lack of understanding of the precise character of God and of the Gospel !

 

[Dovegiven]

Hello John.

I was reading your post and I must admit I was rather surprised at what you wrote.

This seems to be a contradiction.

Another contradiction John, either salvation is free or it is not, either one or the other.

What claim were these folk making to the Lord?

Why did the Lord not know them?

Saying the name of Jesus does not mean salvation of course, believing in the Gospel of Jesus Christ most certainly does mean salvation.
One not only confesses Jesus but also believes in Jesus from the heart!

Romans 10:10
for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

John posted vital "IFs" Jesus made quite clear. Our salvation requires a continual belief, not merely an initial belief as Jesus laid out. I've known many people who have first ruined their lives though abuses,
then come to a conclusion they no longer believe anything about God, becoming outright atheists hating anything to do with God. Those are not mere emotional fits, but lasting changes of mind. Some had gained much knowledge of the gospel, but most not growing at all beyond their initial encounter with the call of the Father to answer to Jesus.

Some say those people were never really saved. How would anyone know that, even that person that doesn't realize the gravity of their decisions until judged by God, those who say and do in Jesus' name but not born again?

Long ago I ministered with some licensed and even an ordained preacher who, like myself, discovered we were calling upon a Lord we didn't know, like the sons of Sceva (Acts 19:14) who were obviously driven by zeal.
The vital thing is to come to that realization before hearing "Depart from me for I never knew you." Once getting that right while still living here, it's equally vital to let your little branch be productive, not subject to being determined worthless and cast into the heap to be burned.
James covered that, explaining the link between faith and works of righteousness, faith earning salvation, works verifying. It's a little like what President Reagan meant by his "Trust but verify" statement concerning the nuclear arms agreement with Russia. It was extremely necessary to trust each other to keep the treaty, but trust alone would not be satisfactory. Knowing some people will be found (too late to help them) ministering in Jesus' name, however earnestly, but not born again or believing as they should, God is not about to take them in, but those branches will be destroyed. He knows within their lifetimes they miss the mark in significant ways, so has basis for judging and condemning them.

Most people I know claim they believe in Jesus, but few go beyond that simple statement, living their lives out in ignorance of what they supposedly believe. "I'm OK, I don't need to be preached at". I believe many of them are in danger of being found to be sterile branches that never produce the fruit God expects, withered branches taking up space on the Vine (Jesus) for a season. The Vine itself doesn't prune those. The Husbandman does that. He won't find branches that happened upon the Vine without being grafted in. The wild branches are on other vines that never produce good fruit, none living in the vineyard, but are found in the wilderness. There is no need to prune those, though branches of promise may be grafted onto the true Vine. A husbandman (vineyard keeper) will give a branch a try through grafting, but if it doesn't take and produce, it is pruned off and burned, not returned to the wilderness. All pruned materials that fail for whatever reasons are burned to prevent spread of disease and pests onto healthy branches. The analogy of a vineyard is a favorite of Jesus and apostles, the perfect natural scenario.

 

[Johnlove]

JohnLove:

I find your idea fascinating that one's being saved does not necessarily guarantee admission into heaven. It's a concept worthy of thoughtful consideration by people like myself who know what I know might not be true.

I'm thinking one might be saved yet not heaven-bound under these circumstances:

1. The person saved today loses her salvation tomorrow and then dies, going to hell.
2. The person saved today keeps her salvation till the day she dies, but goes to another destination besides heaven, such as the purgatory taught by Catholics.
3. The person saved today ceases to exist upon death, and so goes nowhere.
4. Some other possibility.

If you want, please tell me what you thing might be the truth so I may consider the merits of your idea to see if it should become my idea, too.

I believe that a Spiritual Christian walks as Jesus lived. Living the Word of God as the Holy Spirit/Jesus directs.


(Romans 8: 4) “He did this in order that the law’s just demands might be satisfied in us, who behave not as our unspiritual nature but as the Spirit dictates.”



(Romans 8: 4-5) “This was so that the Law's requirements might be fully satisfied in us as we direct our lives not by our natural inclinations but by the Spirit.”


A Spiritual Christian will be taken into heaven by Jesus.


(Matthew 7:21-23) “It is not those who say to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of Heaven but the person who does the will of My Father in Heaven. When the day comes many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?’ Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!”



I believe infants in Christ, those who have been baptized in Jesus’ name, but do not live the Word of God, will be judged by the Word Jesus gave.


(1 Corinthians 3:1-3) “Brothers, I myself was unable to speak to you as people of the Spirit; I treated you as sensual men, still infants in Christ. What I fed you with was milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it; and indeed, you are still not ready for it since you are still unspiritual. Isn’t that obvious from all the jealousy and wrangling that there is among you, from the way that you go on behaving like ordinary people.





I believe infants in Christ will not go to hell, or heaven. I believe there will be another place of punishment for those people. The punishment will very according to how God judged him or her to having live God’s Word.


I believe there are people, and I don’t assume to know who they will be, are going to be given another chance. How God will go about giving these people that second chance has not been given to me.


I don’t speculate on what God does, or will do, because he told me not to do that.


Jesus once told me audibly, to stop trying to figure him out and just follow him.


I do and live as God tells me to do.


Being a Spiritual Christian is so simple. One gives his or her life to Jesus, and then just do as they are told.

 

[Johnlove]

John posted vital "IFs" Jesus made quite clear. Our salvation requires a continual belief, not merely an initial belief as Jesus laid out. I've known many people who have first ruined their lives though abuses,
then come to a conclusion they no longer believe anything about God, becoming outright atheists hating anything to do with God. Those are not mere emotional fits, but lasting changes of mind. Some had gained much knowledge of the gospel, but most not growing at all beyond their initial encounter with the call of the Father to answer to Jesus.

Some say those people were never really saved. How would anyone know that, even that person that doesn't realize the gravity of their decisions until judged by God, those who say and do in Jesus' name but not born again?

Long ago I ministered with some licensed and even an ordained preacher who, like myself, discovered we were calling upon a Lord we didn't know, like the sons of Sceva (Acts 19:14) who were obviously driven by zeal.
The vital thing is to come to that realization before hearing "Depart from me for I never knew you." Once getting that right while still living here, it's equally vital to let your little branch be productive, not subject to being determined worthless and cast into the heap to be burned.
James covered that, explaining the link between faith and works of righteousness, faith earning salvation, works verifying. It's a little like what President Reagan meant by his "Trust but verify" statement concerning the nuclear arms agreement with Russia. It was extremely necessary to trust each other to keep the treaty, but trust alone would not be satisfactory. Knowing some people will be found (too late to help them) ministering in Jesus' name, however earnestly, but not born again or believing as they should, God is not about to take them in, but those branches will be destroyed. He knows within their lifetimes they miss the mark in significant ways, so has basis for judging and condemning them.

Most people I know claim they believe in Jesus, but few go beyond that simple statement, living their lives out in ignorance of what they supposedly believe. "I'm OK, I don't need to be preached at". I believe many of them are in danger of being found to be sterile branches that never produce the fruit God expects, withered branches taking up space on the Vine (Jesus) for a season. The Vine itself doesn't prune those. The Husbandman does that. He won't find branches that happened upon the Vine without being grafted in. The wild branches are on other vines that never produce good fruit, none living in the vineyard, but are found in the wilderness. There is no need to prune those, though branches of promise may be grafted onto the true Vine. A husbandman (vineyard keeper) will give a branch a try through grafting, but if it doesn't take and produce, it is pruned off and burned, not returned to the wilderness. All pruned materials that fail for whatever reasons are burned to prevent spread of disease and pests onto healthy branches. The analogy of a vineyard is a favorite of Jesus and apostles, the perfect natural scenario.

In the beginning of my ministry I asked Jesus what seminary to attend. Jesus told me: “NO! Do not read about me. I will teach you about me.”


My ministry has been to give a word to those who say they are Christians.


For the last forty years that is what God has had me do.


My experience has shown me that very few people truly know God. What Apostle John said is so true.



(1 John 3: 5 - 6) “Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him.”

 

[norapture]

Hey Johnlove I had ask about the branches which got cut off and burned. In post 41
Do the branches , that got cut off, have eternal life, with their names written in the Book of Life

 

[Spockrates]

No, I disagree with the apparent affinity you have with him and your carry-over of this into TJ!

Why?

 

[Johnlove]

Hey Johnlove I had ask about the branches which got cut off and burned. In post 41
Do the branches , that got cut off, have eternal life, with their names written in the Book of Life

That is a question you need to ask Jesus. I am not the one who will judge people on the last day.



(John 12:47-48) “If anyone hears my words and does not keep them faithfully, it is not I who shall condemn him, since I have come not to condemn the world, but to save the world: he who rejects me and refuses my words has his judge already; the word itself that I have spoken will be his judge on the last day.”



Jesus told us that those who did not keep his Words faithfully would be judged on the last day, by his Words.

 

[Spockrates]

I believe that a Spiritual Christian walks as Jesus lived. Living the Word of God as the Holy Spirit/Jesus directs.

Yes, I do too.

A Spiritual Christian will be taken into heaven by Jesus.

That's a reasonable inference.

I believe infants in Christ, those who have been baptized in Jesus’ name, but do not live the Word of God, will be judged by the Word Jesus gave.

Sounds logical.

I believe infants in Christ will not go to hell, or heaven. I believe there will be another place of punishment for those people. The punishment will very according to how God judged him or her to having live God’s Word.

I notice you did not provide a scripture for this premise, but I have one in mind. Would you like me to share it?

I believe there are people, and I don’t assume to know who they will be, are going to be given another chance. How God will go about giving these people that second chance has not been given to me.

This is something that Hindus and Socrates believed. Reincarnation is the word often ascribed to the belief. Are you thinking of the same?

I don’t speculate on what God does, or will do, because he told me not to do that.

Jesus once told me audibly, to stop trying to figure him out and just follow him.

I do and live as God tells me to do.

Being a Spiritual Christian is so simple. One gives his or her life to Jesus, and then just do as they are told.

Since you don't speculate, are you saying you are certain there is another destination besides heaven or hell? Are you also certain there is a second chance, something akin to reincarnation? If you are not sure, then these premises are speculation, I suppose.