Are You Saved By Grace or Faith Alone

[Spockrates]

Look Spock, you said this:i "in both cases it speaks of God giving people faith. Would you say the words quoted make it certain that such faith is a gift? Or would you say, as you said of the $100.00 I received, that you would need more information before you could definitively say it is gift and not a reward?"
These are your words, not mine. You even insinuate that God's Grace is either a gift or a reward, and this is mocking God's salvation by grace and the entire concept of his New Covenant and reveals your lack of understanding of the precise character of God and of the Gospel !

I agree it shows my lack of wisdom, for I am not wise! If I was, I would already know the answers to my questions with certainty.

But I wonder why wondering whether faith is a gift or a reward is mocking God. Please explain.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Still, one might interpret the biblical passage to mean that all of these works and services are gifts. Another might disagree, and we might have to admit, as we have already admitted that there in not enough information to say either way. Faith might be a gift. Then again, it might not. To say that it is, without more convincing evidence, would be illogical. Don't you think?

Using only the scripture presented I would have to agree.

If I am free to use my own understanding then I would want to define faith more thoroughly before proceeding.
The word "saved "also would need to be more clearly defined.
I don't have any kind of a belief system because I learn something new every day.
I got tired of tearing down and rebuilding belief systems many years ago.
I do have a belief goal and that is to believe on the one whom God sent.

I feel that you are pivoting on the term "gift".
Is grace a gift?
Is an inheritance a gift?
Is a calling a gift?
Is being chosen a gift?
Is being given a chance to compete for something a gift?
Is being given form and the ability to reason a gift?

Maybe a gift is a just a type of transaction and the beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
What thinkest thou?

 

[Spockrates]

Using only the scripture presented I would have to agree.

If I am free to use my own understanding then I would want to define faith more thoroughly before proceeding.

Then let's attempt to do just that. Perhaps this passage will help us define faith?

And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.​

(Hebrews 11:6)​

Or this one?

Now faith is being sure of what we hope for, being convinced of what we do not see.

(Hebrews 11:1)​

I find it fascinating that the only two verses of which I know attempt to define faith are written by the author of whose name we are uncertain!

I'd say faith is the process of earnestly seeking God's help to accomplish what we hope is his will. In short, it is trusting God to do what is best for us and others.

The word "saved "also would need to be more clearly defined.

I think being rescued from hell is at least in part what being saved is. If Christ was speaking of such saving, here, then it might also be receiving a life that somehow never ends:

16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned,but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil."

(John 3)​

And Paul appears to be of the opinion that such unending life is a gift:

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

(Romans 6:23)​

I don't have any kind of a belief system because I learn something new every day.
I got tired of tearing down and rebuilding belief systems many years ago.
I do have a belief goal and that is to believe on the one whom God sent.

I feel that you are pivoting on the term "gift".
Is grace a gift?
Is an inheritance a gift?
Is a calling a gift?
Is being chosen a gift?
Is being given a chance to compete for something a gift?
Is being given form and the ability to reason a gift?

Maybe a gift is a just a type of transaction and the beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
What thinkest thou?

Me thinkest you ask many good questions, each of which deserves a discussion thread of its own! I will say that Paul seems to say eternal life is a gift. What one must do to receive it and keep it I don't pretend to know with any absolute certainty, though I have my sincere hopes.

 

[RJ]

Why?

Well, if you can't figure that out, there is nothing further I can say!

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Then let's attempt to do just that! Perhaps this passage will help us define faith?

And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
(Hebrews 11:6)
Or this one?

Now faith is being sure of what we hope for, being convinced of what we do not see.

(Hebrews 11:1)
I find it fascinating that the only two verses of which I know attempt to define faith are written by the author of whose name we are uncertain!

We are given examples of faith that are helpful but that is another discussion.

KJV-Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
I started my walk with this version and I think the translation is accurate.

So I see it as a substance,a thing in God's reality that he finds pleasing.
Now faith is- first of all it "is".
Is what?...well it "is now" or "now is"
Hmmm. Jesus said a time is coming and "now is"

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

I find this an intriguing translation.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Timeless truth I speak to you: The hour is coming, it is even now, when the dead shall hear the voice of The Son of God, and they who hear shall live.

So a discussion of "now is" is forthcoming because an understanding of the nature of time as God sees it could be critical to our understanding scripture.

Example:
Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
It makes a distinction between that which is seen and that which is unseen.
Clearly one attribute of faith is that it is some sort of conduit between the seen and the unseen.

Galatians 3:25 So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.
Eternal=no beginning and no end,always was,always will be.

How does one enter the eternal,wouldn't that be a beginning?

 

[RJ]

But I wonder why wondering whether faith is a gift or a reward is mocking God. Please explain.

I have already told you: "You even insinuate that God's Grace is either a gift or a reward, and this is mocking God's salvation by grace and the entire concept of his New Covenant and reveals your lack of understanding of the precise character of God and of the Gospel !" I will explain your lack understanding by saying, that God has given us his free gift of grace from the very foundation of the universe when he put our names into the "Lamb's Book of Life". The very foundation of the New Covenant / Testament is based on his free gift of Jesus, who shed his blood for our sins and the free gift of salvation for those who believe this and that God resurrected him on the third day after his death on the cross. One last time Spock, even insinuating that this grace was a reward and not a gift, is a mockery of God!!!!! I can't explain it any better that that, you are on your own on this subject!

 

[norapture]

[QUOTElove, post: 253253, member: 30103"]
That is a question you need to ask Jesus. I am not the one who will judge people on the last day.



(John 12:47-48) “If anyone hears my words and does not keep them faithfully, it is not I who shall condemn him, since I have come not to condemn the world, but to save the world: he who rejects me and refuses my words has his judge already; the word itself that I have spoken will be his judge on the last day.”



Jesus told us that those who did not keep his Words faithfully would be judged on the last day, by his Words.[/QUOTE]

Well according to his word ,
anyone's name not found written in the book of like, will be cast in
the lake of fire.

You said you believe infants in
Christ won't go to heaven , or hell
that they would go to another
place
Then you said , you believe some other people , would be giving another chance
Then you said God told you not to
speculate, on what he would , and would not do.

Sounds to me like you speculating
If God will send them, some where besides heaven , or hell.
Also sounds you are speculating
that he will give some another chance.
Unless you have scripture , to prove what you said.

 

[Spockrates]

I have already told you: "You even insinuate that God's Grace is either a gift or a reward...

RJ:

I think that it might help to reread my reply to ThisCrossHurts. What I said to him was this:

In both cases it speaks of God giving people faith. Would you say the words quoted make it certain that such faith is a gift? Or would you say, as you said of the $100.00 I received, that you would need more information before you could definitively say it is gift and not a reward?​

Notice that I did not even mention the word grace. I was asking ThisCrossHurts what he thought about faith not grace.

 

[Spockrates]

We are given examples of faith that are helpful but that is another discussion.

KJV-Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
I started my walk with this version and I think the translation is accurate.

So I see it as a substance,a thing in God's reality that he finds pleasing.
Now faith is- first of all it "is".
Is what?...well it "is now" or "now is"
Hmmm. Jesus said a time is coming and "now is"

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

I find this an intriguing translation.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Timeless truth I speak to you: The hour is coming, it is even now, when the dead shall hear the voice of The Son of God, and they who hear shall live.

So a discussion of "now is" is forthcoming because an understanding of the nature of time as God sees it could be critical to our understanding scripture.

Example:
Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
It makes a distinction between that which is seen and that which is unseen.
Clearly one attribute of faith is that it is some sort of conduit between the seen and the unseen.

Galatians 3:25 So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.
Eternal=no beginning and no end,always was,always will be.

How does one enter the eternal,wouldn't that be a beginning?

Is entering the same as being? Let me tell you a brief story of a time when my eyes were opened to some wisdom I did not see about eternity.

I once engaged it a thoughtful dialog at another forum. The person with whom I spoke was if the opinion that someone could lose her salvation. In response, I quoted these words of Christ:

"Whoever hears my words and believes him who sent me has eternal life me will never be condemned. He has crossed over from death to life."

(John 5:24)

(BTW, I did not notice till this moment that this is the verse immediately before the one you quoted.)

"Now if one could lose eternal life," I said, "then the life lost would not be eternal! So it is impossible to lose one's salvation."

He responded, "What if eternal life is like a ski lift? If you get off the lift, does it cease to be what it is?"

"No," I replied.

"Then why do you think that if you let go of eternal life it would cease to be what it is, or rather, who he is? For Christ is eternal life! Letting go of him does not make him any less than what he was and is and is to come."

So in answer to your question, receiving eternal life was a beginning for me but not for Christ, if he is indeed eternity.

 

[Spockrates]

ThisCrossHurts:

But regarding faith, I suppose it is eternal, if the Son always was and always had faith in the Father.

 

[RJ]

RJ:

I think that it might help to reread my reply to ThisCrossHurts. What I said to him was this:

In both cases it speaks of God giving people faith. Would you say the words quoted make it certain that such faith is a gift? Or would you say, as you said of the $100.00 I received, that you would need more information before you could definitively say it is gift and not a reward?​

Notice that I did not even mention the word grace. I was asking ThisCrossHurts what he thought about faith not grace.

I stand by what I said. You don't have a clue what you are talking about and are akin to a false teacher!

 

[Spockrates]

I stand by what I said. You don't have a clue what you are talking about and are akin to a false teacher!

True, I don't have a clue, but I'm willing to learn! And I'm a student, not a teacher. I was asking questions, not giving you answers. So how could I be false?

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

"Then why do you think that if you let go of eternal life it would cease to be what it is, or rather, who he is? For Christ is eternal life! Letting go of him does not make him any less than what he was and is and is to come."

So in answer to your question, receiving eternal life was a beginning for me but not for Christ, who is eternity.

I follow you but "now"is eternal.Now is the foundation so you were there in the beginning.
Now is the end of time,was is not and will be is not.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
It's as if you can't go there,unless you came from there and you never actually left.

The context of each of these should be considered.
Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Job 38:21 You know, for you were born then, and the number of your days is great!
1 John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

The kingdom of heaven is within you.
Eternal life is now
Heaven is his throne and the earth his footstool.
Maybe when we die we just lift our feet off the footstool.

How do we know that this life is not the ski lift.
Are we so sure we were placed here without any say or input?

 

[DHC]

Show us where in scripture that saved means one will go to heaven.
Show us where in scripture that saved means one will go to heaven.
(Matthew 7:21-23) “It is not those who say to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of Heaven but the person who does the will of My Father in Heaven. When the day comes many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?’ Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!”
I am new to this forum, and don’t understand how to use the multi quote. Will do my best to respond to you anyway.
Who has any claim on Jesus?
The people Jesus was speaking to were people who had walked in the gifts of the Holy Spirit. No one can cast out demons in Jesus name unless he or she has the Holy Spirit.
But that was not the point of that scripture. The point is that no one will go to heaven with Jesus that does not DO the will of the Father in Heaven.
God chooses not to know those who do not obey him. Jesus told us who he chooses to know.
(John 14: 23) “Anyone who loves me will keep my word and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make a home in him.”
If one’s belief means he or she is a Spiritual Christian meaning they walk as Jesus Walked, then they will go to heaven. Being sin free is being righteous.
(1 John 2:6) “But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did”

Hello John.

The point is that no one will go to heaven with Jesus that does not DO the will of the Father in Heaven.

The will of the Father in heaven is that we believe in the Son.

John 6:40
For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and
I Myself will raise him up on the last day.

Jesus testified what the will of His Father was for humanity, believe in the Son and you have eternal life!

Show us where in scripture that saved means one will go to heaven.

The scripture states that we are already seated in the heavenly places with Christ.

Ephesians 2
5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have
been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus

The apostle Paul declared that we are already seated with Christ in heaven.

I will repeat the Gospel of Jesus Christ which is the primary means of salvation.

Romans 10:10
for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Salvation means that one is rescued from the wrath of God against humanity.

We are only ever saved by believing in this Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 1
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were
sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise.

Many folk have not been taught what the scripture actually proclaims.

Romans 10
11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.” 12 For there is no distinction between
Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “Whoever will call
on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

You made a remarkable claim in your post John, and one that you personally could never achieve.
Here is your remarkable claim.

Being sin free is being righteous.

Surely you are not suffering from the delusion that you will be 'sin free' through your own efforts or diligence?

Our righteousness (sin free or blameless) in Christ is not really based on our own effort or will to be righteous.
The scripture tells us the opposite John.

Romans 9:30
That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;
31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith,
but as though it were by works.

Israel sought a righteousness by works, i.e., by human effort, Israel sought after their own righteousness before God through
their own obedience to the rules (commandments). The Gentiles acquired the required righteousness, a perfect righteousness
through faith in the Christ. God requires absolute perfection from His children as the scripture states below.

Matthew 5:48
Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Either accept the perfect righteousness of Christ through faith in Him, or establish your own brand of perfect righteousness based
on your own perfect obedience to His commands. This is ultimately your choice to make.

Once again I will repeat an earlier quotation to ensure you will understand how our righteousness is derived.

Romans 10:10
for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness

It is that simple, a perfect righteousness is credited to us by believing in Jesus Christ.

Now for the more difficult point that you made John, you quoted the following verses.

Matthew 7
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth
the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have
cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

For some unknown reason these verses above are very popular on this forum. It is of critical importance that everyone
realizes what the scripture states. One must do the will of the Father in order to enter the kingdom of heaven. Saying the
name of Jesus will not accomplish the will of the Father, do not be deceived on this point. One must believe in Jesus from
the heart and also, say or confess the name of Jesus. There are in fact two requirements for entry into the kingdom, confession
and belief.

John 6:40
For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise
him up on the last day.

The folk in the text (Matthew 7:21-23) only said the name of Jesus but they did not really believe in Jesus from the heart for their salvation.

They had the power of the Holy Spirit working for them in the name of Jesus, because their is power in the name of Jesus. They did not
believe in Jesus from the heart and this was their fundamental failure.

These folk testified to their own works before God, 'and in thy name have cast out devils'. They did not rely on the righteousness of Christ
which is credited to them, they did not believe in the Christ from the heart.

They sought to establish their own righteousness before God on the basis of what they had been doing, 'and in thy name done many wonderful works?'
Never fall into the trap of thinking, it is what I do in Christ that is important. What you believe and confess is the line in the sand, either you are in Christ and
known by God, or you are unknown and remain under the wrath of God. Not by works but by Grace through faith!

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

I stand by what I said. You don't have a clue what you are talking about and are akin to a false teacher!

I think he is asking rhetorical questions and that actually helps me examine the solidity of my position.
People seek answers in different ways and everyone sees what they do for a reason.
I am interested in the reason why you see what you see.
So feel free to answer any of my questions or ask any.
Hopefully in explaining to you I can understand myself a little better.

 

[RJ]

True, I don't have a clue, but I'm willing to learn! And I'm a student, not a teacher. I was asking questions, not giving you answers. So how could I be false?

So you say! Several here have given you sound biblical answers, but you do not listen!

 

[RJ]

I think he is asking rhetorical questions and that actually helps me examine the solidity of my position.

• A rhetorical question is usually defined as any question asked for a purpose other than to obtain the information the question asks.
• This is a Talk Jesus platform.
• Jesus said he is the way and the truth.
• Jesus said the truth would set you free.
• If I were the both of you, I would leave rhetoric out of it and stick with the truth!

 

[Johnlove]

Yes, I do too.



That's a reasonable inference.



Sounds logical.



quot I notice you did not provide a scripture for this premise, but I have one in mind. Would you like me to share it?quote YES



quote This is something that Hindus and Socrates believed. Reincarnation is the word often ascribed to the belief. Are you thinking of the same?quote
Jesus has not given me any understanding of who, what, or anything other than I will be one of his rulers in the thousand years, and that that thousand years does not mean that number of actual years.


Jesus has just told me it is not like the Hindus’ believe or what Socrates believed.


I don’t know if you have read the Jesus told me to not try to figure him out.



Since you don't speculate, are you saying you are certain there is another destination besides heaven or hell? Are you also certain there is a second chance, something akin to reincarnation? If you are not sure, then these premises are speculation, I suppose.

There will be a second chance for some, but don’t know any more than that.

Yes, I do too.



That's a reasonable inference.



Sounds logical.



I notice you did not provide a scripture for this premise, but I have one in mind. Would you like me to share it?



This is something that Hindus and Socrates believed. Reincarnation is the word often ascribed to the belief. Are you thinking of the same?



Since you don't speculate, are you saying you are certain there is another destination besides heaven or hell? Are you also certain there is a second chance, something akin to reincarnation? If you are not sure, then these premises are speculation, I suppose.

 

[Johnlove]

The will of the Father in heaven is that we believe in the Son.

When John says one is believing in Jesus, he is saying that one needs to be in Jesus to believe.


You need to read what John says about being in Jesus, or Jesus being in him or her.


(1 John 2:6) “But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did”


John says this is how we know we are in him. One who sin can’t believe in Jesus, because they are not living as Jesus lived.


(1 John 3:9) “No one who has been begotten by God sins; because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”


Here John says God is in one who does not sin. So Children of God are in God, and God is in them.


(1 John 3: 5 - 6) “Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him.”


Here John says if one sins they don’t even know God. One can’t believe in someone they do not even know.


(John 14: 23) “Anyone who loves me will keep my word and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make a home in him.”


Jesus told us what one needs to do to have God be in them. Keeping God’s Word includes not sinning.


The reason my argument does not make sense to most people, is because to understand God’s Word and come to know God his or her teacher needs to be God.


(1 Corinthians 2:10-13) “These are the very things that God has revealed to us through the Spirit, for the Spirit reaches the depts. Of everything, even the depths of God. After all, the depths of a man can only be known by his own spirit, not by any other man, and in the same way the depths of God can only be known by the Spirit of God”

 

[Johnlove]

The scripture states that we are already seated in the heavenly places with Christ.

Ephesians 2
5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have
been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus

The apostle Paul declared that we are already seated with Christ in heaven.

I will repeat the Gospel of Jesus Christ which is the primary means of salvation.

Yes and Paul said the following also.


(1 Corinthians 6:9-10) “You know perfectly well that people who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God: people of immoral lives, idolaters, adulterers, catamites, sodomites, thieves, usurers, drunkards, slanders and swindlers will never inherit the kingdom of God.”


Better yet Jesus said the following.


(John 12:47-48) “If anyone hears my words and does not keep them faithfully, it is not I who shall condemn him, since I have come not to condemn the world, but to save the world: he who rejects me and refuses my words has his judge already; the word itself that I have spoken will be his judge on the last day.”


Notice Jesus said those who do not keep his word faithfully will be judged by them on the last day