Are You Saved By Grace or Faith Alone

[Johnlove]

Our righteousness (sin free or blameless) in Christ is not really based on our own effort or will to be righteous.
The scripture tells us the opposite John.

So you believe Apostle John got it wrong?


(1 John 3: 5 - 6) “Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him.”


(1 John 3:9-10) “No one who is a child of God sins because God's seed remains in him. Nor can he sin, because he is a child of God. This is what distinguishes the children of God from the children of the devil: whoever does not live uprightly and does not love his brother is not from God”


(1 John 2:6) “But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did”


(John 14: 23) “Anyone who loves me will keep my word and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make a home in him.”


(1 John 3:9-10) “No one who is a child of God sins because God's seed remains in him. Nor can he sin, because he is a child of God. This is what distinguishes the children of God from the children of the devil: whoever does not live uprightly and does not love his brother is not from God.”

 

[Johnlove]

for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness

It is that simple, a perfect righteousness is credited to us by believing in Jesus Christ.

Yes you have done to Paul’s writings just what Peter warned us about.


(2 Peter 3:15-16) “Think of our Lord’s patience as your opportunity to be saved: our brother Paul, who is so dear to us, told you this when he wrote to you with the wisdom that is his special gift. He always writes like this when he deals with this sort of subject, and this makes some points in his letter hard to understand; these are the points that uneducated and unbalanced people distort, in the same way as they distort the rest of scripture a fatal thing for them to do.”

 

[Johnlove]

Hello John.

The will of the Father in heaven is that we believe in the Son.

John 6:40
For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and
I Myself will raise him up on the last day.

Jesus testified what the will of His Father was for humanity, believe in the Son and you have eternal life!



The scripture states that we are already seated in the heavenly places with Christ.

Ephesians 2
5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have
been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus

The apostle Paul declared that we are already seated with Christ in heaven.

I will repeat the Gospel of Jesus Christ which is the primary means of salvation.

Romans 10:10
for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Salvation means that one is rescued from the wrath of God against humanity.

We are only ever saved by believing in this Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 1
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were
sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise.

Many folk have not been taught what the scripture actually proclaims.

Romans 10
11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.” 12 For there is no distinction between
Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “Whoever will call
on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

You made a remarkable claim in your post John, and one that you personally could never achieve.
Here is your remarkable claim.

Surely you are not suffering from the delusion that you will be 'sin free' through your own efforts or diligence?

Our righteousness (sin free or blameless) in Christ is not really based on our own effort or will to be righteous.
The scripture tells us the opposite John.

Romans 9:30
That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;
31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith,
but as though it were by works.

Israel sought a righteousness by works, i.e., by human effort, Israel sought after their own righteousness before God through
their own obedience to the rules (commandments). The Gentiles acquired the required righteousness, a perfect righteousness
through faith in the Christ. God requires absolute perfection from His children as the scripture states below.

Matthew 5:48
Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Either accept the perfect righteousness of Christ through faith in Him, or establish your own brand of perfect righteousness based
on your own perfect obedience to His commands. This is ultimately your choice to make.

Once again I will repeat an earlier quotation to ensure you will understand how our righteousness is derived.

Romans 10:10
for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness

It is that simple, a perfect righteousness is credited to us by believing in Jesus Christ.

Now for the more difficult point that you made John, you quoted the following verses.

Matthew 7
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth
the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have
cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

For some unknown reason these verses above are very popular on this forum. It is of critical importance that everyone
realizes what the scripture states. One must do the will of the Father in order to enter the kingdom of heaven. Saying the
name of Jesus will not accomplish the will of the Father, do not be deceived on this point. One must believe in Jesus from
the heart and also, say or confess the name of Jesus. There are in fact two requirements for entry into the kingdom, confession
and belief.

John 6:40
For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise
him up on the last day.

The folk in the text (Matthew 7:21-23) only said the name of Jesus but they did not really believe in Jesus from the heart for their salvation.

They had the power of the Holy Spirit working for them in the name of Jesus, because their is power in the name of Jesus. They did not
believe in Jesus from the heart and this was their fundamental failure.

These folk testified to their own works before God, 'and in thy name have cast out devils'. They did not rely on the righteousness of Christ
which is credited to them, they did not believe in the Christ from the heart.

They sought to establish their own righteousness before God on the basis of what they had been doing, 'and in thy name done many wonderful works?'
Never fall into the trap of thinking, it is what I do in Christ that is important. What you believe and confess is the line in the sand, either you are in Christ and
known by God, or you are unknown and remain under the wrath of God. Not by works but by Grace through faith!

That all is nothing but your opinion coming from the false teaching of the so called Reformers.

 

[Spockrates]

So you say! Several here have given you sound biblical answers, but you do not listen!

Please give one example of an answer to which I did not listen.

 

[Spockrates]

• A rhetorical question is usually defined as any question asked for a purpose other than to obtain the information the question asks.
• This is a Talk Jesus platform.
• Jesus said he is the way and the truth.
• Jesus said the truth would set you free.
• If I were the both of you, I would leave rhetoric out of it and stick with the truth!

My questions are Socratic not rhetorical.

 

[RJ]

My questions are Socratic not rhetorical.

There is no place for either one here at Talk Jesus!

 

[Spockrates]

I think he is asking rhetorical questions and that actually helps me examine the solidity of my position.
People seek answers in different ways and everyone sees what they do for a reason.
I am interested in the reason why you see what you see.
So feel free to answer any of my questions or ask any.
Hopefully in explaining to you I can understand myself a little better.

The questions are Socratic rather than rhetorical. They actually have the same goal in mind as your own--to find out why the person being asked the questions believes. It's a way of testing the spirit of what one has to say to see whether it is from God. Sometimes I find that the reasons someone has for believing are good reasons why I should believe what they do, too, and so I do!

 

[RJ]

The questions are actually Socratic rather than rhetorical. They actually have the same goal in mind as your own--to find out why the person being asked the questions believes. It's a way of testing the spirit of what one has to say to see whether it is from God. Sometimes I find that the reasons someone has for believing are good reasons why I should believe what they do, and so I do.

Once again, Socratic or Rhetorical responses have no place at TJ!

 

[Spockrates]

There is no place for either one here at Talk Jesus!

“If I said something wrong,” Jesus replied, “testify as to what is wrong. But if I spoke the truth, why did you strike me?”

(John 18:23)

Please tell me what forum rule I have violated.

 

[RJ]

“If I said something wrong,” Jesus replied, “testify as to what is wrong. But if I spoke the truth, why did you strike me?”

What?! You really have no clue and fictitiously using a Bible verse is also against all that is decent here. Spock, you're no Jesus!!! But, this does support my point....Using Socratic and Rhetorical responses is WRONG and they are far from the TRUTH!! You are digging yourself hole, why don't you quit and just move on to another subject!

 

[Spockrates]

What?! You really have no clue and fictitiously using a Bible verse is also against all that is decent here. Spock, you're no Jesus!!! But, this does support my point....Using Socratic and Rhetorical responses is WRONG and they are far from the TRUTH!! You are digging yourself hole, why don't you quit and just move on to another subject!

I think you don't understand, RJ. Jesus' reply to the man who struck him WAS a Socratic question.

 

[RJ]

I think you don't understand, RJ. Jesus' reply to the man who struck him WAS a Socratic question.

I do understand and you are not listening ...a Socratic question has no place on TJ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...Move on!

 

[Spockrates]

RJ: I'm just trying to learn something about the passage you quoted in the opening post. You said you didn't want to answer any more of my questions, and I said that's OK. ThisCrossHurts doesn't have a problem with answering the questions I have. Walk away, or stay. But if you stay, please understand that I don't want to argue. I'd really like to think things through with you.

 

[RJ]

RJ: I'm just trying to learn something about the passage you quoted in the opening post. You said you didn't want to answer any more of my questions, and I said that's OK. ThisCrossHurts doesn't have a problem with answering the questions I have. Walk away, or stay. But if you stay, please understand that I don't want to argue. I'd really like to think things through with you.

No you don't! All you wish to do is interject your form of Spockrates form of logic that, Like I said, has no place here. So we will just have to finally agree to disagree. I am done with your silliness. You don't seek truth. I promise, you will have no further burden to regurgitate anymore of your Socratic logic with me; you are more than welcome to use it on someone else. God Bless you and any future spiritual growth you may have.

 

[Spockrates]

No you don't! All you wish to do is interject your form of Spockrates form of logic that, Like I said, has no place here. So we will just have to finally agree to disagree. I am done with your silliness. You don't seek truth. I promise, you will have no further burden to regurgitate anymore of your Socratic logic with me; you are more than welcome to use it on someone else. God Bless you and any future spiritual growth you may have.

Philosopher means, "lover of truth." If I do not seek it, then I am no philosopher. I'm not sure why I upset you. I'll try to remember to steer clear of you in the future. But if you change your mind and want to talk, I gladly comply, my friend.

 

[DHC]

Yes and Paul said the following also.
(1 Corinthians 6:9-10) “You know perfectly well that people who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God: people of immoral lives, idolaters, adulterers, catamites, sodomites, thieves, usurers, drunkards, slanders and swindlers will never inherit the kingdom of God.”
Better yet Jesus said the following.
(John 12:47-48) “If anyone hears my words and does not keep them faithfully, it is not I who shall condemn him, since I have come not to condemn the world, but to save the world: he who rejects me and refuses my words has his judge already; the word itself that I have spoken will be his judge on the last day.”
Notice Jesus said those who do not keep his word faithfully will be judged by them on the last day

Hello John.

Not sure where you are going with your interpretation from Paul's letter to the Corinthians. I think
you may be attempting to offer an interpretation, that the given text (1 Corinthians 6:9-10) may not
support.

Here is the abbreviation of the verses, and the key point of those verses.

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?

Paul is simply saying that the unsaved do not inherent the kingdom of God. We already know this
to be the case, this does not mean the Corinthians are not saved though, only that they should behave
in a more Godly manner. Paul is definitely not promoting a doctrine of salvation by works, rather
encouraging the Corinthians to lift their game.

Notice Jesus said those who do not keep his word faithfully will be judged by them on the last day

This statement of yours was in reference to the text (John 12:48-49) that you quoted. May I ask that when
one reads any text from the scripture, that one pays special attention to the context and surrounding verses.
Otherwise the interpretation will be crooked and unreliable. Your claiming that Jesus was saying that they
must keep his word faithfully, implying I guess, the 100 or more commandments that Jesus gave.

I have added one previous verse so that we can more clearly focus on what Jesus was saying.

John 12
46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world,
but to save the world.
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken,
the same shall judge him in the last day.

Jesus in line 46, states that anyone believes in Jesus will not walk in darkness, the Gospel.
Jesus in line 47, states that any man does not believe in Jesus, then Jesus will not judge him, rejection of the Gospel.
Jesus in line 48, states anyone who rejects the Christ will be judged, consequence of rejection of the Gospel.

John, I will be interstate for the next three days and will be unable to reply.

 

[Johnlove]

Hello John.

Not sure where you are going with your interpretation from Paul's letter to the Corinthians. I think
you may be attempting to offer an interpretation, that the given text (1 Corinthians 6:9-10) may not
support.

Here is the abbreviation of the verses, and the key point of those verses.

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?

Paul is simply saying that the unsaved do not inherent the kingdom of God. We already know this
to be the case, this does not mean the Corinthians are not saved though, only that they should behave
in a more Godly manner. Paul is definitely not promoting a doctrine of salvation by works, rather
encouraging the Corinthians to lift their game.


This statement of yours was in reference to the text (John 12:48-49) that you quoted. May I ask that when
one reads any text from the scripture, that one pays special attention to the context and surrounding verses.
Otherwise the interpretation will be crooked and unreliable. Your claiming that Jesus was saying that they
must keep his word faithfully, implying I guess, the 100 or more commandments that Jesus gave.

I have added one previous verse so that we can more clearly focus on what Jesus was saying.

John 12
46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world,
but to save the world.
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken,
the same shall judge him in the last day.

Jesus in line 46, states that anyone believes in Jesus will not walk in darkness, the Gospel.
Jesus in line 47, states that any man does not believe in Jesus, then Jesus will not judge him, rejection of the Gospel.
Jesus in line 48, states anyone who rejects the Christ will be judged, consequence of rejection of the Gospel.

John, I will be interstate for the next three days and will be unable to reply.

You should know that I understand the written language, and you don’t need to tell me what Paul or anyone was saying.


You are only putting your own understanding into scripture.


If one needs to continue to tell people what scripture is saying, then they have an agenda that is different than what scripture says.


You go on believing your, what I know to be false gospel.

Jesus has taught me and all I am supposed to do is tell people what he has taught me.


You are wrong, but I don’t care.

 

[Chad]

@RJ & @Spockrates

Please change your tone, both of you. Respect the community, the OP and don't waste arguing. If you can't hold your tongue and express patience as Paul & Christ taught, don't say anything at all and do not participate in this thread. You're both acting rudely towards one another. Step back, think about it and take a break.

This is supposed to be a place to study the Word, not argue. If one doesn't have a teachable spirit, then the Holy Spirit will deal with that person.

 

[Fragrant Grace]

You should know that I understand the written language, and you don’t need to tell me what Paul or anyone was saying.
You are only putting your own understanding into scripture.
If one needs to continue to tell people what scripture is saying, then they have an agenda that is different than what scripture says.
You go on believing your, what I know to be false gospel.
Jesus has taught me and all I am supposed to do is tell people what he has taught me.
You are wrong, but I don’t care.

@Johnlove

I am asking this question publicly so that your reply will hopefully clarify to others where you are coming from..particularly on this thread.

In many of your posts you seem to suggest that other members here are wrong and that you are right
You challenge them when they ask you to explain what you mean (for example when member DHC writes to you on this thread)

And you state that Jesus has given you a message to share with everyone.... I quote an earlier post of yours in this thread

In the beginning of my ministry I asked Jesus what seminary to attend. Jesus told me: “NO! Do not read about me. I will teach you about me.”
My ministry has been to give a word to those who say they are Christians.

So what message are you supposed to be sharing?
And how do you receive this message?

Here at Talk Jesus we believe in the Bible as being the word of God
And the word of God is the authority used not the view points of individuals
Brothers and sisters may may point out and discuss different areas of understanding and interpretation
The Lord will lead people in the truth if people are open to hearing the truth found in His word

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2 Timothy 3:16

For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
Romans 15:4

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
John 5:39

 

[Johnlove]

@Johnlove

I am asking this question publicly so that your reply will hopefully clarify to others where you are coming from..particularly on this thread.

In many of your posts you seem to suggest that other members here are wrong and that you are right
You challenge them when they ask you to explain what you mean (for example when member DHC writes to you on this thread)

And you state that Jesus has given you a message to share with everyone.... I quote an earlier post of yours in this thread

In the beginning of my ministry I asked Jesus what seminary to attend. Jesus told me: “NO! Do not read about me. I will teach you about me.”
My ministry has been to give a word to those who say they are Christians.

So what message are you supposed to be sharing?
And how do you receive this message?

Here at Talk Jesus we believe in the Bible as being the word of God
And the word of God is the authority used not the view points of individuals
Brothers and sisters may may point out and discuss different areas of understanding and interpretation
The Lord will lead people in the truth if people are open to hearing the truth found in His word

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2 Timothy 3:16

For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
Romans 15:4

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
John 5:39

When people try and tell me that a scripture is saying something that it does not say, then I know they are wrong, and ignore them.


John says that a Child of God does not sin. That is scripture, and I don’t need to tell people what John meant.


(1 John 3:9-10) “No one who is a child of God sins because God's seed remains in him. Nor can he sin, because he is a child of God. This is what distinguishes the children of God from the children of the devil: whoever does not live uprightly and does not love his brother is not from God.”


If I am misunderstanding what John said then the Holy Spirit will tell me.