Wondering About Faith (Ephesians 2)

[Spockrates]

True Christianity doesn't seek wisdom in the world, but rather in God.

1 Cor 1:24-25; 1 Cor 2:5-6; 1 Cor 3:18-19; Rom 11:25; Rom 11:33;
Anytime we ask ourselves (or any man) questions it is done in the flesh.
True wisdom only comes from God, and He is who we should for wisdom ( Jas 1:5; )
The wisdom of the world is foolishness. Unfortunately we are of the world, so any wisdom we have apart from God is also of the world.

Is seeking wisdom a sin? Of course not. But seeking it from men or the world is foolishness.

BAC, you said:

"Is seeking wisdom a sin? Of course not. But seeking it from men or the world is foolishness."

Would you say what you said is wise?

 

[Spockrates]

BAC:

I'm thinking you will say, "Of course it is!" and I would have to agree with you. For as Socrates said, "A wise man is not likely to talk nonsense." From what I've read of your comments, you certainly appear wise to me.



So then, what I wonder is this: What is the difference between the wisdom you write, which is wise, and the wisdom of men, which is unwise? What makes your wisdom different from their wisdom?

 

[Chad]

I'm confused. Although sad, is it not also sincere and wise to admit one is never sinless?

Please disregard johnlove's comment. He hasn't added anything fruitful in this community. You are right, no one is sinless. Impossible to be sinless living in a flesh and corrupt world. Anyone who claims to be without sin is a liar.

To answer your question regarding the OP: It's as you read it. Salvation is a free gift from GOD. Nothing else, at all. Our "works" cannot save us. Many confuse the "faith without works" as necessity to salvation which is heresy and false. The "works" after we receive salvation (by grace alone) is the result & response of the indwelling Holy Spirit in us (2 Timothy 1:14), sanctifying us (Hebrews 2:11) to be fruitful (Galatians 5:22) and to become like Jesus Christ Himself.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

So when Christ tells us not to unfairly judge, is he saying we should not take unjust disciplinary action?

I think that is a safe bet but I feel he is trying paint a picture with many merging elements so that we see things from top to bottom and not bottom to top.

Or is he saying we should never try to distinguish between right and wrong?
Right and wrong are time-space concepts,like the tree in the garden called "the knowledge of good and evil".
But there were two trees in the garden right?
The tree of life was in the midst(uncertain location) of the garden,perhaps he is talking about Judging from life which is an eternal thing instead of from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Good and evil are eternal concepts and thats why God said"the man has become like one of us knowing good and evil".
That eternal tree appears as right and wrong in this earthly realm.The tree of life however does not appear at all in the earthly realm until Jesus shows up.
We have instead mistaken the tree of good &evil as being separate trees and so our good leads to the same roots as our evil.


John 8:15 You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one.
I emphasize the word "one" because he makes many appearances.

I think he is implying we judge from the wrong tree.
Seeing is a judgement my eyes make about my environment.
Hearing is a judgement my ears make about my environment.
Smelling is a judgment my nose makes about my environment.

But don't they all disagree about my environment?
All three are making truthful judgement's but they disagree.

I can make temporary judgments about temporary things.
I can make eternal judgements about temporary things.
I can make temporary judgments about eternal things but I only be speculating.
I can't make eternal judgements about eternal things until I can understand the environment of the eternal.
God can/did make eternal judgments about eternal things.

Rightly judging has levels of complexity and elements that work together
Luke 7:43 Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged.
John 7:24 Stop judging by mere appearances, but instead judge correctly."

In Luke Jesus said the man judged rightly even though I think he was judging by appearances but they were not judging eternal things.
In John he tells us not to judge by appearances so I think he means don't judge eternal things with temporary information.

I can guess why you say that I should avoid fallacy of equivocation so feel free to point out any.

 

[B-A-C]

. Salvation is a free gift from GOD. Nothing else, at all. Our "works" cannot save us. Many confuse the "faith without works" as necessity to salvation which is heresy and false. The "works" after we receive salvation (by grace alone) is the result & response of the indwelling Holy Spirit in us (2 Timothy 1:14), sanctifying us (Hebrews 2:11) to be fruitful (Galatians 5:22) and to become like Jesus Christ Himself.

I would be willing to conceded that we are saved by grace "alone" (even though those two word don't appears together in the Bible).
But before I do, I would ask, what is the difference between this and antimonianism?
I do agree there is nothing we can do to get saved. I agree that works does not save us at all.
However, I disagree from the standpoint.. that our deeds have nothing to do with our salvation.
If I return back to sinning... return to fornication, adultery, alcohol, child-molesting, do I remain saved?
If the answer is no, then obviously it depends on something else besides grace alone.

 

[Dovegiven]

Dovegiven:

I think I was too quick to reply. Please allow me to once again try. The reason I used the word martyred is this: By democratic vote, the decision was made that Socrates must be put to death by poison. He received this death penalty in part for his beliefs about God. While I agree he was not a Christan or Jewish martyr, I'm of the opinion that receiving a death penalty for a religious belief is what makes one a martyr. But perhaps I'm mistaken?...
So then I think it is an important question to ask, and one I hope you will thoughtfully try to answer: There were many gods worshipped in Athens and adding another was not criminal. So why did Socrates' belief of his God convince others he was being impious and corrupting young people? Why was his belief criminal?...
I think if you took the time to reread the Socratic dialogue Theatetus, you might change your mind about that. In it he plainly said his God never gave him wisdom at all, but compelled him to seek wisdom from others. He described himself as a "midwife" who helps others give "birth" to the truth, and like a midwife, he was himself baren. He admitted the only wisdom he himself had he received from others by the answers to his questions he coaxed out of them....
He did say his God gave him a strong feelings that he should not speak to some people, but added that these impressions were not wisdom......
Socrates would agree with that statement, as do I. He said his God is the source of all wisdom. So I see no way the God who knows all would need to ask any questions.....
But are you saying Socrates' method of asking why people believed is a wrong way to receive the wisdom they themselves have received from God? If so, then why do you answer any questions for me or anyone at this forum? Why not just say, this? "Don't as me. Ask God. Listening to my answers is no way to learn the truth!"

I want to say up front we are discussing Philosophy, which is not a good topic here, and I'm responding with limitation out of fairness to your apparent sincere seeking. If Socrates was "martyred" it was within their mythological philosophies/societal mores, in his case defying the Delphic oracle, thereby subject to criminal action. Paul, while in Athens could have been similarly charged if found adding a new unapproved god, had God not given him the wisdom of identifying his God in their midst. Acts 17:23 (KJV)
23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
Socrates' religion was that collective religion of Greece, admiring and fearing many gods and goddesses. He dared to put their wisdom to question, while the voice in him had no lasting effect upon Athens or mankind at large other than to spawn more religious philosophy from Plato and many after those Socratic students and disciples. God was not speaking to Socrates, because the wisdom Socrates alluded to is foreign to what the living God Paul preached to them about had to say then and long before Socrates was born. If Socrates had taken up the religion of Solomon, which was in his day very accessible knowledge, then was executed for the adoption of it, then he would have been a martyr for God.

Socrates appealed to King Archon, who ruled there was a legal case against him. He followed the law of the land, Socrates didn't. He wasn't fond bearing truth of his own society, nor did he have anything to do with Jehovah God. All we have of Socrates is written by the four disciples, Plato certainly not giving credit to God, but supported the pantheistic Euthyphro dilemma.

So who do you say Socrates sought wisdom from among men? I don't find where he obeyed that voice either. You like Socratic concepts of receiving wisdom, yet God is on record saying to seek it from his word. Then we learn it and can pass on true wisdom, knowledge, and understanding to those who seek it. We tell what we can and point to the scriptures to be studied by the seekers. But an unwise person will only seek what other men think, then select whichever philosophy fits them the best.

When I answer threads I typically generate posts that are too long due to inclusion of suitable scriptures in as much context as apparently needed. So far I'm speaking my own knowledge, preferring to teach Bible instead. But here we are.

God is on record asking men questions, and men asking God. The greatest difference between that and Socratic discourse is those questions are without answers, leaving men holding dilemmas.
God's word can't be understood through philosophy of any flavor.

 

[Dovegiven]

I would be willing to conceded that we are saved by grace "alone" (even though those two word don't appears together in the Bible).
But before I do, I would ask, what is the difference between this and antimonianism?
I do agree there is nothing we can do to get saved. I agree that works does not save us at all.
However, I disagree from the standpoint.. that our deeds have nothing to do with our salvation.
If I return back to sinning... return to fornication, adultery, alcohol, child-molesting, do I remain saved?
If the answer is no, then obviously it depends on something else besides grace alone.

If one of us stands saved only because of the grace of God, then every human that ever lived, regardless of sin history, was and is and will be saved. Else, if not, then his grace would be partial, apparently applied by some choice system, respecting certain persons, which is not what God does. Then by Christ dying for the sins of the world should save all men regardless of their relationship to God, then why so many Bible commands for the saved to obey?

I see this as like two sides of a coin. All coins have two sides, even if nothing is stamped on a side. But our salvation is based on the marvelous grace of God, but obtained through faith, not one pickedout and another rejected to account for the many that die in wickedness. So we come back to Ephesians 2:8-9 (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

True, grace is not recorded as saving with any word like "alone" near it. Faith in that verse makes "faith" a vital part of salvation. We know what it is, having many biblical examples of it. It's simply
defined in Hebrews 11:1 (KJV) 1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

From the content of that chapter faith is doing something that gets God attention, pleases him, something people don't do specially because it 's something we already know how to do naturally. It isn't a habit of God to ask people to do something special that we do all the time, but looks for us to do something special, something that requires trusting God to help us do. Believing the gospel and acting upon it is not a natural feat to accomplish, but a special act called faith.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

This might be true in our dreams or remembrances. But are you saying it is also true of our physical bodies? Either you are saying something truly fascinating, or I'm completely misunderstanding.

Solomon said something fascinating,I'm just asking questions and mapping paths
Ecclesiastes 3:15 What is happening now has happened before, and what will happen in the future has happened before, because God makes the same things happen over and over again.

Since I'm not trying to show you my ideas(I myself am chasing and asking God) I have to show you the path of questions I followed to find what I believe to be a pearl.
(are pearls and truth unequivocal?)
Psalm 23:3 He restores my soul. He leads me in paths of righteousness for his name’s sake.
Other versions
He renews my life; He leads me along the right paths for His name's sake.
He brings back my soul, and leads me in the paths of truth because of your Name.
Proverbs 4:11 I instruct you in the way of wisdom and lead you along straight paths.

Psalm 5:8 Lead me in the right path, O LORD, or my enemies will conquer me. Make your way plain for me to follow.
(note he was worried about a defeated life not hell)

In the groundhog day scenario each day was played over and over allowing for a different outcome at the end of each day.
The same as I can do with a saved game.
C.S.Lewis did not mention(as far as I know) that any change in any page would alter the rest of the pages that have not been read.
Once reading a page it could not be altered without going back in time.
But someone out of time and space would not need to play out each one because every possible combination of possible paths that time took would be
present before them.
Some of those possible paths are more righteous than others but all exist simultaneously.
God not only would know what happened but also what did not happen.
Jesus was led in the perfect path by the Spirit of God.
Isaiah 30:21 And your ears shall hear a word behind you, saying, “This is the way, walk in it,” when you turn to the right or when you turn to the left.
There is way more to convey what I feel I see ,but that's the most information I can provide without feedback.

Fascinating! Please explain why you believe wisdom is not knowledge.

Because of what wisdom does,it seeks to fatten itself and grow with more wisdom.
That's another thread because we have many things to ponder.
Proverbs 4:7
The beginning of wisdom is this: Get wisdom, and whatever you get, get insight.
"The beginning of wisdom is: Acquire wisdom; And with all your acquiring, get understanding.
Wisdom is the summit; get wisdom, and with all your possessions purchase understanding.

Knowledge is a knowing.
No need to seek or get what you know or have.

 

[DHC]

I would be willing to conceded that we are saved by grace "alone" (even though those two word don't appears together in the Bible).
But before I do, I would ask, what is the difference between this and antimonianism?
I do agree there is nothing we can do to get saved. I agree that works does not save us at all.
However, I disagree from the standpoint.. that our deeds have nothing to do with our salvation.
If I return back to sinning... return to fornication, adultery, alcohol, child-molesting, do I remain saved?
If the answer is no, then obviously it depends on something else besides grace alone.

Hello B-A-C.

I would be willing to conceded that we are saved by grace "alone" (even though those two word don't
appears together in the Bible)

You are making a concession regarding this doctrine, the gospel of Grace, which was clearly taught by the
apostle Paul. It may be advisable to pay particular attention to the apostle Paul, the reason for this B-A-C,
is that the apostle Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles. If Paul proclaims a doctine, then B-A-C, you
are compelled to align yourself with that doctrine, given that you are a gentile of course.

Salvation is a gift, and purely by Grace at all times, never is there a combination of Grace and works
to acheive salvation. The Christ is the alpha and the omega of the entire salvation event. To say that our
deeds are in any way involved in this process of salvation is entirely false and misleading.

Acts 15:11
But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.

Acts 18:27
he greatly helped those who had believed through grace

Acts 20:24
the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify solemnly of the gospel of the grace of God

Romans 3:24
being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus

Romans 5:15
much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many

Romans 5:17
much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life
through the One, Jesus Christ

Romans 6:14
For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace

Paul never, ever, claims B-A-C, that we are saved by Grace and works, or Grace and law, B-A-C.

Concentrate on Paul's letters and your unsound theology will be purified.

 

[Spockrates]

Please disregard johnlove's comment. He hasn't added anything fruitful in this community. You are right, no one is sinless. Impossible to be sinless living in a flesh and corrupt world. Anyone who claims to be without sin is a liar.

Chad:

Thanks, but I wasn't offended by what JohnLove said. Just curious.

To answer your question regarding the OP: It's as you read it. Salvation is a free gift from GOD.

Yes, I'd say that since eternal life is a gift, your inference is likely true.

Nothing else, at all. Our "works" cannot save us. Many confuse the "faith without works" as necessity to salvation which is heresy and false. The "works" after we receive salvation (by grace alone) is the result & response of the indwelling Holy Spirit in us (2 Timothy 1:14), sanctifying us (Hebrews 2:11) to be fruitful (Galatians 5:22) and to become like Jesus Christ Himself.

Yes, thank you. But I'm actually not asking about salvation. I'm asking about faith. Are we saved through faith alone, or are we saved through faith and something more?

 

[B-A-C]

Hello B-A-C.


You are making a concession regarding this doctrine, the gospel of Grace, which was clearly taught by the
apostle Paul. It may be advisable to pay particular attention to the apostle Paul, the reason for this B-A-C,
is that the apostle Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles. If Paul proclaims a doctine, then B-A-C, you
are compelled to align yourself with that doctrine, given that you are a gentile of course.

Salvation is a gift, and purely by Grace at all times, never is there a combination of Grace and works
to acheive salvation. The Christ is the alpha and the omega of the entire salvation event. To say that our
deeds are in any way involved in this process of salvation is entirely false and misleading.
B-A-C.

Concentrate on Paul's letters and your unsound theology will be purified.

Actually Paul did mention a few other things, and so did Jesus.. but rather than debate all that again.
I take it your answer is, yes I can fornicate, commit adultery, be homosexual, be a child molester and I'm still saved?
Instead of changing the subject, please just answer the question.

 

[B-A-C]

Yes, thank you. But I'm actually not asking about salvation. I'm asking about faith. Are we saved through faith alone, or are we saved through faith and something more?

Well, faith itself is a work. So according to this thread, the answer would be no, not even faith is required. It's grace "alone".
Therefore everyone is saved. Except those God refuses to give grace to for some unknown reason.
Even those who believe like you believe or I believe, it's possible God never gave them/us grace.

 

[Travis]

I believe pretty much in line with what John Wesley believed:

3. "But do you believe we are sanctified by faith We know you believe that we are justified by faith; but do not you believe, and accordingly teach, that we are sanctified by our works" So it has been roundly and vehemently affirmed for these five-and-twenty years: but I have constantly declared just the contrary; and that in all manner of ways. I have continually testified in private and in public, that we are sanctified as well as justified by faith. And indeed the one of those great truths does exceedingly illustrate the other. Exactly as we are justified by faith, so are we sanctified by faith. Faith is the condition, and the only condition, of sanctification, exactly as it is of justification. It is the condition: none is sanctified but he that believes; with out faith no man is sanctified. And it is the only condition: this alone is sufficient for sanctification. Every one that believes is sanctified, whatever else he has or has not. In other words, no man is sanctified till he believes: every man when he believes is sanctified.​

and somewhat related as well, from the conclusion:

But you shall not be disappointed of your hope: it will come, and will not tarry. Look for it then every day, every hour, every moment! Why not this hour, this moment Certainly you may look for it now, if you believe it is by faith. And by this token you may surely know whether you seek it by faith or by works. If by works, you want something to be done first, before you are sanctified. You think, I must first be or do thus or thus. Then you are seeking it by works unto this day. If you seek it by faith, you may expect it as you are; and expect it now. It is of importance to observe, that there is an inseparable connection between these three points, --expect it by faith; expect it as you are; and expect it now! To deny one of them, is to deny them all; to allow one, is to allow them all. Do you believe we are sanctified by faith Be true then to your principle; and look for this blessing just as you are, neither better nor worse; as a poor sinner that has still nothing to pay, nothing to plead, but "Christ died." And if you look for it as you are, then expect it now. Stay for nothing: why should you Christ is ready; and He is all you want. He is waiting for you: He is at the door! Let your inmost soul cry out,​

All from Sermon #43, entitled, "The Scripture Way of Salvation", by John Wesley

This is the Good News which Jesus Christ wrought, and brought, for us.

Blessings,

Travis

 

[Spockrates]

I think that is a safe bet but I feel he is trying paint a picture with many merging elements so that we see things from top to bottom and not bottom to top.

Or is he saying we should never try to distinguish between right and wrong?
Right and wrong are time-space concepts,like the tree in the garden called "the knowledge of good and evil".

But there were two trees in the garden right?
The tree of life was in the midst(uncertain location) of the garden,perhaps he is talking about Judging from life which is an eternal thing instead of from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Good and evil are eternal concepts and thats why God said"the man has become like one of us knowing good and evil".

But if good is right and evil is wrong, then are good and evil also space-time concepts, which are not eternal? Or is the truth that right and wrong are not limited to space and time and are thus eternal?

I think, perhaps goodness and rightness must be attributes of the only eternal God, and so exist eternally. But what about evil and wrongness? Since they don't exist in the only eternal God, then they cannot be eternal in the same sense that goodness and rightness are.

But the nigh be eternal in the sense that we are. For remember that we agreed souls have not always existed, but they are eternal in the sense that once created, they never cease to be.

And now do you see what a fascinating conclusion this leads us to? God is not the only creator of things that are eternal. The devil created eternal things of his own, like evil, wrongness and death. God is not to blame for these eternal antagonists to goodness, rightness and life. They are satan's ******* children, and what little, disobedient terrors they are!

That eternal tree appears as right and wrong in this earthly realm.The tree of life however does not appear at all in the earthly realm until Jesus shows up.
We have instead mistaken the tree of good &evil as being separate trees and so our good leads to the same roots as our evil.

Not sure what you mean by inferring that good and evil are one tree.

John 8:15 You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one.
I emphasize the word "one" because he makes many appearances.

I think he is implying we judge from the wrong tree.
Seeing is a judgement my eyes make about my environment.
Hearing is a judgement my ears make about my environment.
Smelling is a judgment my nose makes about my environment.

But don't they all disagree about my environment?
All three are making truthful judgement's but they disagree.

I can make temporary judgments about temporary things.
I can make eternal judgements about temporary things.
I can make temporary judgments about eternal things but I only be speculating.
I can't make eternal judgements about eternal things until I can understand the environment of the eternal.
God can/did make eternal judgments about eternal things.

Rightly judging has levels of complexity and elements that work together
Luke 7:43 Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged.
John 7:24 Stop judging by mere appearances, but instead judge correctly."

In Luke Jesus said the man judged rightly even though I think he was judging by appearances but they were not judging eternal things.
In John he tells us not to judge by appearances so I think he means don't judge eternal things with temporary information.

I can guess why you say that I should avoid fallacy of equivocation so feel free to point out any.

No fallacious thinking there.

 

[B-A-C]

I believe pretty much in line with what John Wesley believed:

3. "But do you believe we are sanctified by faith We know you believe that we are justified by faith; but do not you believe, and accordingly teach, that we are sanctified by our works" So it has been roundly and vehemently affirmed for these five-and-twenty years: but I have constantly declared just the contrary; and that in all manner of ways. I have continually testified in private and in public, that we are sanctified as well as justified by faith. And indeed the one of those great truths does exceedingly illustrate the other. Exactly as we are justified by faith, so are we sanctified by faith. Faith is the condition, and the only condition, of sanctification, exactly as it is of justification. It is the condition: none is sanctified but he that believes; with out faith no man is sanctified. And it is the only condition: this alone is sufficient for sanctification. Every one that believes is sanctified, whatever else he has or has not. In other words, no man is sanctified till he believes: every man when he believes is sanctified.​

and somewhat related as well, from the conclusion:

But you shall not be disappointed of your hope: it will come, and will not tarry. Look for it then every day, every hour, every moment! Why not this hour, this moment Certainly you may look for it now, if you believe it is by faith. And by this token you may surely know whether you seek it by faith or by works. If by works, you want something to be done first, before you are sanctified. You think, I must first be or do thus or thus. Then you are seeking it by works unto this day. If you seek it by faith, you may expect it as you are; and expect it now. It is of importance to observe, that there is an inseparable connection between these three points, --expect it by faith; expect it as you are; and expect it now! To deny one of them, is to deny them all; to allow one, is to allow them all. Do you believe we are sanctified by faith Be true then to your principle; and look for this blessing just as you are, neither better nor worse; as a poor sinner that has still nothing to pay, nothing to plead, but "Christ died." And if you look for it as you are, then expect it now. Stay for nothing: why should you Christ is ready; and He is all you want. He is waiting for you: He is at the door! Let your inmost soul cry out,​

All from Sermon #43, entitled, "The Scripture Way of Salvation", by John Wesley

This is the Good News which Jesus Christ wrought, and brought, for us.

Blessings,

Travis

At least you believe it also requires faith But even Wesley did not believe in OSAS.

 

[Spockrates]

I want to say up front we are discussing Philosophy, which is not a good topic here, and I'm responding with limitation out of fairness to your apparent sincere seeking.

I appreciate your consideration, but please don't feel obligated to be concise, if you believe more explanation is needed. I think Socrates was right when he said we should, "care not whether our words are many or few, so long as they lead to the truth."

This is one reason why I did not mind going off topic with you. Out of genuine concern you cautioned me about the dangers of philosophy. I responded that I'm not following some systematic philosophy, I'm trying to follow Christ, and I'm using Socrates method of asking those to whom God has spoken the reasons why they believe.

If Socrates was "martyred" it was within their mythological philosophies/societal mores, in his case defying the Delphic oracle, thereby subject to criminal action. Paul, while in Athens could have been similarly charged if found adding a new unapproved god, had God not given him the wisdom of identifying his God in their midst. Acts 17:23 (KJV)
23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

Would you be surprised to learn you and Socrates see eye to eye in your approach to reason with me? Socrates said:

All good counsel begins in the same way: A man should know what he is advising about, or his counsel will all come to nought. But people imagine that they know about the nature of things, when they don’t know about them, and not having come to an understanding at first because they think that they know, they end, as might be expected, in contradicting one another and themselves! Now you and I must not be guilty of this fundamental error which we condemn in others.

(Phaedrus)​

I believe you are following his counsel, though perhaps you never read his words, here. For you saw that I was not properly understanding what the word martyr means to you, so you took the time to make sure we agreed before moving on. This is part of the Socratic method, I believe. If we do not define our terms, then when you use the word martyr, I'll be thinking apples but you will mean oranges, and we'll do a lot of talking at each other, but never understand each what the other is saying.

So perhaps you agree that not everything Socrates said is unwise? Do you agree that some things Socrates did are worthy of imitating?

Socrates' religion was that collective religion of Greece, admiring and fearing many gods and goddesses. He dared to put their wisdom to question, while the voice in him had no lasting effect upon Athens or mankind at large other than to spawn more religious philosophy from Plato and many after those Socratic students and disciples. God was not speaking to Socrates, because the wisdom Socrates alluded to is foreign to what the living God Paul preached to them about had to say then and long before Socrates was born. If Socrates had taken up the religion of Solomon, which was in his day very accessible knowledge, then was executed for the adoption of it, then he would have been a martyr for God.

Socrates appealed to King Archon, who ruled there was a legal case against him. He followed the law of the land, Socrates didn't.

What Greek law did Socrates break?

He wasn't fond bearing truth of his own society, nor did he have anything to do with Jehovah God. All we have of Socrates is written by the four disciples, Plato certainly not giving credit to God, but supported the pantheistic Euthyphro dilemma.

What truth of Greek society did he not bear?

So who do you say Socrates sought wisdom from among men?

He said he spoke to any man in Athens who would discuss things with him, as long as his God did not give him a strong feeling that he should not speak.

I don't find where he obeyed that voice either.

He said it was not a voice. It was a strong impression he had to not speak to some men. I don't recall any time when he failed by speaking to men he felt he should not. Do you?

You like Socratic concepts of receiving wisdom, yet God is on record saying to seek it from his word. Then we learn it and can pass on true wisdom, knowledge, and understanding to those who seek it. We tell what we can and point to the scriptures to be studied by the seekers. But an unwise person will only seek what other men think, then select whichever philosophy fits them the best.

When I answer threads I typically generate posts that are too long due to inclusion of suitable scriptures in as much context as apparently needed. So far I'm speaking my own knowledge, preferring to teach Bible instead. But here we are.

God is on record asking men questions, and men asking God. The greatest difference between that and Socratic discourse is those questions are without answers, leaving men holding dilemmas.
God's word can't be understood through philosophy of any flavor.

Then please do teach me the bible! Please answer the Socratic question in the opening post and tell me: Are we saved through faith alone? Or is there something else besides faith through which we are saved?

 

[Dovegiven]

I believe you are following his counsel, though perhaps you never read his words, here. For you saw that I was not properly understanding what the word martyr means to you, so you took the time to make sure we agreed before moving on. This is part of the Socratic method, I believe. If we do not define our terms, then when you use the word martyr, I'll be thinking apples but you will mean oranges, and we'll do a lot of talking at each other, but never understand each what the other is saying.

So perhaps you agree that not everything Socrates said is unwise? Do you agree that some things Socrates did are worthy of imitating?

I completed only 4 semester hours in Greek Philosophy, just enough to be able to know when it comes up in Christian ministry, and how to avoid it. Of course Socrates' students, in capturing his lessons on paper, had a huge effect upon Western philosophy, there should be a conscious separation between all philosophies and the gospel of Christ. So yes, we are pleasantly conversing by benefit of Socratic philosophy. That's a little like I would need to have a working knowledge of elements of conversation to minister in Kenya's society, which would involve their philosophy as a starting platform. But no matter where I might go, whatever philosophy I encounter will conflict with the word of God, which is not at all a philosophy of man.

What Greek law did Socrates break?

In a nutshell, refusing to fear Zeus by inferring the addition of another god not under his control.

What truth of Greek society did he not bear?

Their value of knowledge possessed through their polytheistic lineup of gods, some giving men evil knowledge, some good knowledge.
That conflicts with Father God who teaches men blessings of good, curses of evil, there being no acceptable piety in seeking good out of evil.

He said he spoke to any man in Athens who would discuss things with him, as long as his God did not give him a strong feeling that he should not speak.

Keep in mind when he used a word like "god" it wasn't a direct reference to God, else his defense of which god would have been the well known God of the Jews. Athens knew well of Israel in those days by then Israel in Babylonian exile, and the Jews knew of Greece. The Jews resisted their many gods for the one God, while Herodotus didn't mention them or their God. What the Jews believed was non sequitur to them.

He said it was not a voice. It was a strong impression he had to not speak to some men. I don't recall any time when he failed by speaking to men he felt he should not. Do you?

I believe he did to his accusers.

Then please do teach me the bible! Please answer the Socratic question in the opening post and tell me: Are we saved through faith alone? Or is there something else besides faith through which we are saved?

Man is saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

Read Romans 3 so we can discuss Romans 3:21-27 (KJV)
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.[/QUOTE]

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

But if good is right and evil is wrong, then are good and evil also space-time concepts, which are not eternal? Or is the truth that right and wrong are not limited to space and time and are thus eternal?

I didn't provide enough information to jump to any such conclusion.
Simple concepts become very complex when when mixed with more simple concepts.
I can only show you scripture that throws doubt on what I think I know and forces me to throw out my understanding and attempt to discover
what picture scripture is trying to show me.
Example:
Psalm 34:21 Evil shall slay the wicked: and they that hate the righteous shall be desolate.
Does evil do good?
Psalm 94:23 He will repay them for their sins and destroy them for their wickedness; the LORD our God will destroy them.
Does destroy and slay mean the same thing?
Or is scripture pointing to something that we have not yet considered?

And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
If evil works for good then are evil and wrong the same thing?
Is evil right or wrong to slay the wicked?

Romans 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
If all things work together for good and God bound us over disobedience for a purpose (to reveal his mercy) then
is my disobedience a bad thing?
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

My conclusion is that our concepts of good and evil,right and wrong are lacking

For remember that we agreed souls have not always existed, but they are eternal in the sense that once created, they never cease to be.

I agreed that a soul appeared to be created but not that the soul is eternal.
The spirit which God gave is eternal and that spirit returns to God who gave it.
The animated dust returns to dust.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Soul and spirit are not the same thing.

Matthew 12:43 "Now when the unclean spirit goes out of a man, it passes through waterless places seeking rest, and does not find it.
Matthew 12:44 "Then it says, 'I will return to my house from which I came'; and when it comes, it finds it unoccupied, swept, and put in order.
Is it possible that a soul is a house for spirits?
Using only the scripture I have provided so far it is possible that the flesh could be the house.
But I have reason to doubt that.

2 Timothy 2:20 Now in a large house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and of earthenware, and some to honor and some to dishonor. 2 Timothy 2:21 Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.

Not sure what you mean by inferring that good and evil are one tree.

I'm not sure what you mean by inferring.The tree of the knowledge of good and evil is one tree.
The tree in the midst of the garden was the tree of life.
These trees seem to be trees of knowledge and the tree of life would not contain knowledge of good and evil but only knowledge of life.
The tree of the knowledge of good and evil would have no knowledge of life.
There are no works in life.
There is work in finding and eating though.
If my knowledge of good and evil is lacking(it is) then I hope thats a sign I'm eating more from the right tree.

This has always puzzled me and I think it has puzzled translators:
Isaiah 7:15
He will be eating curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right,
Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
He will eat sour milk and honey, which will help him know how to reject evil and choose what is right.
He shall eat butter and honey that he may know to refuse the evil and choose the good.
Butter and honey he doth eat, When he knoweth to refuse evil, and to fix on good.

There are many key words connected to other scripture so it's a journey.

John 6:29 Jesus told them, "This is the only work God wants from you: Believe in the one he has sent."

That is why I say I don't have a belief system,I have a belief goal.

Job 28
1 “Surely there is a mine for silver,and a place for gold that they refine.
2 Iron is taken out of the earth,and copper is smelted from the ore.
3 Man puts an end to darkness and searches out to the farthest limit
the ore in gloom and deep darkness.
4 He opens shafts in a valley away from where anyone lives;they are forgotten by travelers;they hang in the air, far away from mankind; they swing to and fro.
5 As for the earth, out of it comes bread,but underneath it is turned up as by fire.

I've been a miner for the heart of God.

 

[Dovegiven]

Well, faith itself is a work. So according to this thread, the answer would be no, not even faith is required. It's grace "alone".
Therefore everyone is saved. Except those God refuses to give grace to for some unknown reason.
Even those who believe like you believe or I believe, it's possible God never gave them/us grace.

If salvation only came by grace, then because of grace none would be lost, it not being a matter of "accepting" grace eat all. Grace is above man's natural uderstanding, so grace would would not be grace if the benefit of grace depended upon a natural man understanding the spiritual.

Consider Noah in relation to the unearned favor of God.

Genesis 6:8-9 (KJV) 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

The means by which Noah could escape destruction was by that grace, but through one action, building the boat. If his trust was in the grace of God alone, why trust in a seemingly absurd boat? But I think he was allowed by the grace of God to put his faith in the boat to save his family. The scriptures don't indicate that God told Noah he had found grace in God's eyes. God simply opened up a monologue giving Noah a head's up of what was about to happen, and to follow the instructions. There's no mention of Noah agreeing or questioning, but only obeying.

Would God have saved them anyway had Noah not obeyed in faith believing? There is no direct answer to that, but the sum of scriptures do answer "NO".

That was a type of the fullness of grace of God through faith in Jesus, who is our 'Ark of salvation', carried by way of his "water".

 

[Spockrates]

Well, faith itself is a work. So according to this thread, the answer would be no, not even faith is required. It's grace "alone".
Therefore everyone is saved. Except those God refuses to give grace to for some unknown reason.
Even those who believe like you believe or I believe, it's possible God never gave them/us grace.

Are you being facetious or serious?